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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Ok, I personally do not see it like that. I wouldn't call a different opinion dishonest. I agree that Ferrari are definitely not fighting at a disadvantage, maybe that was the case on the one full wet race, but let's not get into that again. For the last few pages we have seen a lot of people, if not all, admitting that in most likelihood the cars are almost on par. We do not know exactly the power outputs of the engines, but for some comments from Rosberg, Horner, etc., who I guess do not know the actual engine performances, but still may have a bit more insight into this than us.

I have written before in this thread that the performance of the cars seems so close that it is difficult to say if one engine has 5-10hp more than the other, if it is the aero, setup or drivers that make the difference. The packages seem fairly equal. All that matters is that Ferrari have caught up with Mercedes. I think that it sounds like petty bickering if Ferrari or Mercedes are slightly faster, we should enjoy what looks like an awesome season after 4 years of Merc domination.

That's just clearly not the case though. Ferrari have the upper hand and have had it for most of the season. Yes, it is certainly close and yes, Mercedes certainly have had a highly competitive package for most of the year but Ferrari clearly have the upper hand in terms of just the car's level of performance. The people in and around the sport are not in disagreement about that. So what we have in this thread is just an inability on the part of our forum to engage in the thread's stated purpose (to discuss the performance level of the cars as the season progresses) because people are using the thread for a different purpose.

I don't think that's the case. I think people have been discussing it. It's just that you seem to get frustrated whenever people put forward an opinion you disagree with. This is a thread discussing the relative performance of the cars, but you seem to want it to be a thread discussing how much better Ferrari is than everyone else. And not everybody agrees with that position.

Opinions differ. That's what forums are largely for. You don't have to agree but you can't dismiss an entire thread as a joke simply because others don't share your views

Well let's examine that statement of yours. You seem to be trying to draw an equivalence between my activity in the forum and yours. Let's explore that. One point where it definitely seemed that Mercedes had the upper hand was after the first race. Hamilton had set pole in Australia and he had been the fastest during the race as well. Let's take a look at what I had to say after the race to push my biased agenda:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial."

........Hmmm.....That's kind of an odd thing to say considering the way you seem to want to portray me, isn't it? The fact is that I am actually discussing the performance level of the cars while YOU are in here trying to make it seem like the Ferrari isn't what it is (the best car currently). You are completely disengenuous and you are not willing to be objective. Please stop trying to conflate my behavior with yours.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Ok, I personally do not see it like that. I wouldn't call a different opinion dishonest. I agree that Ferrari are definitely not fighting at a disadvantage, maybe that was the case on the one full wet race, but let's not get into that again. For the last few pages we have seen a lot of people, if not all, admitting that in most likelihood the cars are almost on par. We do not know exactly the power outputs of the engines, but for some comments from Rosberg, Horner, etc., who I guess do not know the actual engine performances, but still may have a bit more insight into this than us.

I have written before in this thread that the performance of the cars seems so close that it is difficult to say if one engine has 5-10hp more than the other, if it is the aero, setup or drivers that make the difference. The packages seem fairly equal. All that matters is that Ferrari have caught up with Mercedes. I think that it sounds like petty bickering if Ferrari or Mercedes are slightly faster, we should enjoy what looks like an awesome season after 4 years of Merc domination.

That's just clearly not the case though. Ferrari have the upper hand and have had it for most of the season. Yes, it is certainly close and yes, Mercedes certainly have had a highly competitive package for most of the year but Ferrari clearly have the upper hand in terms of just the car's level of performance. The people in and around the sport are not in disagreement about that. So what we have in this thread is just an inability on the part of our forum to engage in the thread's stated purpose (to discuss the performance level of the cars as the season progresses) because people are using the thread for a different purpose.

I don't think that's the case. I think people have been discussing it. It's just that you seem to get frustrated whenever people put forward an opinion you disagree with. This is a thread discussing the relative performance of the cars, but you seem to want it to be a thread discussing how much better Ferrari is than everyone else. And not everybody agrees with that position.

Opinions differ. That's what forums are largely for. You don't have to agree but you can't dismiss an entire thread as a joke simply because others don't share your views

Well let's examine that statement of yours. You seem to be trying to draw an equivalence between my activity in the forum and yours. Let's explore that. One point where it definitely seemed that Mercedes had the upper hand was after the first race. Hamilton had set pole in Australia and he had been the fastest during the race as well. Let's take a look at what I had to say after the race to push my biased agenda:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial."

........Hmmm.....That's kind of an odd thing to say considering the way you seem to want to portray me, isn't it? The fact is that I am actually discussing the performance level of the cars while YOU are in here trying to make it seem like the Ferrari isn't what it is (the best car currently). You are completely disengenuous and you are not willing to be objective. Please stop trying to conflate my behavior with yours.

Except the point being made was about you getting frustrated because people dare to have a different opinion. I'm not the one calling the thread a joke, so not sure where you are coming from with your talk of drawing an equivalence.

We don't agree on the cars' relative performance, that's fine. But only one of us is dismissing the entire thread as a joke because of it. Just accept that others have different opinions. The fact that there are several people on both sides of the fence shows that it's not quite as clear cut as you would have it. And the discussion that ensues is the whole point of a forum


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Ok, I personally do not see it like that. I wouldn't call a different opinion dishonest. I agree that Ferrari are definitely not fighting at a disadvantage, maybe that was the case on the one full wet race, but let's not get into that again. For the last few pages we have seen a lot of people, if not all, admitting that in most likelihood the cars are almost on par. We do not know exactly the power outputs of the engines, but for some comments from Rosberg, Horner, etc., who I guess do not know the actual engine performances, but still may have a bit more insight into this than us.

I have written before in this thread that the performance of the cars seems so close that it is difficult to say if one engine has 5-10hp more than the other, if it is the aero, setup or drivers that make the difference. The packages seem fairly equal. All that matters is that Ferrari have caught up with Mercedes. I think that it sounds like petty bickering if Ferrari or Mercedes are slightly faster, we should enjoy what looks like an awesome season after 4 years of Merc domination.

That's just clearly not the case though. Ferrari have the upper hand and have had it for most of the season. Yes, it is certainly close and yes, Mercedes certainly have had a highly competitive package for most of the year but Ferrari clearly have the upper hand in terms of just the car's level of performance. The people in and around the sport are not in disagreement about that. So what we have in this thread is just an inability on the part of our forum to engage in the thread's stated purpose (to discuss the performance level of the cars as the season progresses) because people are using the thread for a different purpose.

I don't think that's the case. I think people have been discussing it. It's just that you seem to get frustrated whenever people put forward an opinion you disagree with. This is a thread discussing the relative performance of the cars, but you seem to want it to be a thread discussing how much better Ferrari is than everyone else. And not everybody agrees with that position.

Opinions differ. That's what forums are largely for. You don't have to agree but you can't dismiss an entire thread as a joke simply because others don't share your views

Well let's examine that statement of yours. You seem to be trying to draw an equivalence between my activity in the forum and yours. Let's explore that. One point where it definitely seemed that Mercedes had the upper hand was after the first race. Hamilton had set pole in Australia and he had been the fastest during the race as well. Let's take a look at what I had to say after the race to push my biased agenda:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial."

........Hmmm.....That's kind of an odd thing to say considering the way you seem to want to portray me, isn't it? The fact is that I am actually discussing the performance level of the cars while YOU are in here trying to make it seem like the Ferrari isn't what it is (the best car currently). You are completely disengenuous and you are not willing to be objective. Please stop trying to conflate my behavior with yours.

Except the point being made was about you getting frustrated because people dare to have a different opinion. I'm not the one calling the thread a joke, so not sure where you are coming from with your talk of drawing an equivalence.

We don't agree on the cars' relative performance, that's fine. But only one of us is dismissing the entire thread as a joke because of it. Just accept that others have different opinions. The fact that there are several people on both sides of the fence shows that it's not quite as clear cut as you would have it. And the discussion that ensues is the whole point of a forum

I think you've missed my point. I have no problem with people having an honest opinion that is different than my own. In fact I welcome that. I have a problem with people disingenuously arguing against things that are empirically evident because they are seemingly incapable of being objective on any F1-related topic. A thread like this shouldn't be about "My driver is better than yours" but that's basically what every thread is about for the majority of PF1 forumers unfortunately. We cannot have an honest discussion about the cars because too many of our forumers are not willing to be honest about them. That is why I feel the thread is a bit of a joke.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:44 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's just clearly not the case though. Ferrari have the upper hand and have had it for most of the season. Yes, it is certainly close and yes, Mercedes certainly have had a highly competitive package for most of the year but Ferrari clearly have the upper hand in terms of just the car's level of performance. The people in and around the sport are not in disagreement about that. So what we have in this thread is just an inability on the part of our forum to engage in the thread's stated purpose (to discuss the performance level of the cars as the season progresses) because people are using the thread for a different purpose.

I don't think that's the case. I think people have been discussing it. It's just that you seem to get frustrated whenever people put forward an opinion you disagree with. This is a thread discussing the relative performance of the cars, but you seem to want it to be a thread discussing how much better Ferrari is than everyone else. And not everybody agrees with that position.

Opinions differ. That's what forums are largely for. You don't have to agree but you can't dismiss an entire thread as a joke simply because others don't share your views

Well let's examine that statement of yours. You seem to be trying to draw an equivalence between my activity in the forum and yours. Let's explore that. One point where it definitely seemed that Mercedes had the upper hand was after the first race. Hamilton had set pole in Australia and he had been the fastest during the race as well. Let's take a look at what I had to say after the race to push my biased agenda:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial."

........Hmmm.....That's kind of an odd thing to say considering the way you seem to want to portray me, isn't it? The fact is that I am actually discussing the performance level of the cars while YOU are in here trying to make it seem like the Ferrari isn't what it is (the best car currently). You are completely disengenuous and you are not willing to be objective. Please stop trying to conflate my behavior with yours.

Except the point being made was about you getting frustrated because people dare to have a different opinion. I'm not the one calling the thread a joke, so not sure where you are coming from with your talk of drawing an equivalence.

We don't agree on the cars' relative performance, that's fine. But only one of us is dismissing the entire thread as a joke because of it. Just accept that others have different opinions. The fact that there are several people on both sides of the fence shows that it's not quite as clear cut as you would have it. And the discussion that ensues is the whole point of a forum

I think you've missed my point. I have no problem with people having an honest opinion that is different than my own. In fact I welcome that. I have a problem with people disingenuously arguing against things that are empirically evident because they are seemingly incapable of being objective on any F1-related topic. A thread like this shouldn't be about "My driver is better than yours" but that's basically what every thread is about for the majority of PF1 forumers unfortunately. We cannot have an honest discussion about the cars because too many of our forumers are not willing to be honest about them. That is why I feel the thread is a bit of a joke.

But nobody was saying that just before your "joke" comment, so what prompted that?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 pm 
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One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly, this thread is a bit of a joke.

Why do you say this? I just read the first post again and I think that lamo's intentions were to have a race by race comparison, if not heated debate! It kind of (vaguely) followed that. I guess lamo can't follow up his analysis on a race by race basis since he has decided to leave, so the thread may have gone a bit on a tangent!!
When the discussion becomes so disingenuous and dishonest, there isn't really much point. The thread was not intended to really be a debate but rather an ongoing discussion about the cars and how they stack up. Instead we have the same handful of people trying to always portray Ferrari as fighting at a disadvantage. It makes the thread basically the same as 90% of the other threads. And I completely reject the notion that there is the same thing happening on the Mercedes side. I don't see that at all. When Mercedes have been strongest, people have acknowledged it.


Ok, I personally do not see it like that. I wouldn't call a different opinion dishonest. I agree that Ferrari are definitely not fighting at a disadvantage, maybe that was the case on the one full wet race, but let's not get into that again. For the last few pages we have seen a lot of people, if not all, admitting that in most likelihood the cars are almost on par. We do not know exactly the power outputs of the engines, but for some comments from Rosberg, Horner, etc., who I guess do not know the actual engine performances, but still may have a bit more insight into this than us.

I have written before in this thread that the performance of the cars seems so close that it is difficult to say if one engine has 5-10hp more than the other, if it is the aero, setup or drivers that make the difference. The packages seem fairly equal. All that matters is that Ferrari have caught up with Mercedes. I think that it sounds like petty bickering if Ferrari or Mercedes are slightly faster, we should enjoy what looks like an awesome season after 4 years of Merc domination.



If you haven't already, take a listen to James Allison's appraisal on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Mercedes vs the Ferrari.

2018 Hungarian Grand Prix F1 Debrief
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9NbkUnAZkM

9 minutes in.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:46 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.

Thank you for illustrating my point.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:52 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

that Mercedes have had the best car for 50% of the races? That was your point? Or was it that you believe otherwise, therefore this thread is a joke?

Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain. Maybe you can disprove it by putting your own forward, but dismissing it as evidence of this thread being a joke (assuming that's the point you're making - a bit confused otherwise) just demonstrates a lack of tolerance of differing views and is contrary to your earlier post that you have no problem with or welcome people having an honest opinion that is different to your own


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain....


Which in the context of the thread, which is the ongoing performance between Merc, Ferrari and RBR (or I thought it was) is irelavent.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:54 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain....


Which in the context of the thread, which is the ongoing performance between Merc, Ferrari and RBR (or I thought it was) is irelavent.

In a thread that examines the relative performance of the teams, considering we are in the summer break, discussing the relative performance of the teams so far is definitely not irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain....


Which in the context of the thread, which is the ongoing performance between Merc, Ferrari and RBR (or I thought it was) is irelavent.

Of course it's relevant. We're talking about the relative performance of the cars and whether one has improved against the other. Assessing the trend so far over the year is completely relevant


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

that Mercedes have had the best car for 50% of the races? That was your point? Or was it that you believe otherwise, therefore this thread is a joke?

Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain. Maybe you can disprove it by putting your own forward, but dismissing it as evidence of this thread being a joke (assuming that's the point you're making - a bit confused otherwise) just demonstrates a lack of tolerance of differing views and is contrary to your earlier post that you have no problem with or welcome people having an honest opinion that is different to your own

This is what I mean by the disingenuous nature of the contributions in here. That's also what I was talking about with Kingvoid's post. Bahrain was a race where Ferrari set pole by 2 tenths of a second and where Vettel easily gapped Bottas during the first stint. The fact that Ferrari had some tire issues during the race does not somehow negate the fact that they were obviously faster.

As for Silverstone; I don't even have to make that argument. Let's look at what Kingvoid said himself:
"Today in Silverstone, I reckon Ferrari may have had the faster car in qualifying (by maybe a tenth). Hamilton just put together an amazing lap while Seb and Kimi made some small mistakes."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14886&start=1080

Now this is someone with an undeniably biased track record in the forum and yet it was so clear that Ferrari were quicker, he couldn't justify misrepresenting the events of the day. Now that some time has passed, however, and maybe memory has faded a bit, he wants to say that the Mercedes were faster at Silverstone (which they clearly were not).

Anyway, it's probably pointless to have this type of discussion in here because it relies on people being honest.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:10 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

that Mercedes have had the best car for 50% of the races? That was your point? Or was it that you believe otherwise, therefore this thread is a joke?

Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain. Maybe you can disprove it by putting your own forward, but dismissing it as evidence of this thread being a joke (assuming that's the point you're making - a bit confused otherwise) just demonstrates a lack of tolerance of differing views and is contrary to your earlier post that you have no problem with or welcome people having an honest opinion that is different to your own

This is what I mean by the disingenuous nature of the contributions in here. That's also what I was talking about with Kingvoid's post. Bahrain was a race where Ferrari set pole by 2 tenths of a second and where Vettel easily gapped Bottas during the first stint. The fact that Ferrari had some tire issues during the race does not somehow negate the fact that they were obviously faster.

As for Silverstone; I don't even have to make that argument. Let's look at what Kingvoid said himself:
"Today in Silverstone, I reckon Ferrari may have had the faster car in qualifying (by maybe a tenth). Hamilton just put together an amazing lap while Seb and Kimi made some small mistakes."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14886&start=1080

Now this is someone with an undeniably biased track record in the forum and yet it was so clear that Ferrari were quicker, he couldn't justify misrepresenting the events of the day. Now that some time has passed, however, and maybe memory has faded a bit, he wants to say that the Mercedes were faster at Silverstone (which they clearly were not).

Anyway, it's probably pointless to have this type of discussion in here because it relies on people being honest.

It’s ridiculous, not to mention conceited, to write off contrary opinion as dishonesty. In Bahrain Ferrari did set pole by two tenths but Hamilton was also uncharacteristically slower than Bottas. In fact, he was a tenth slower than Bottas and Kimi, except you can’t blame the former on the car. There are grounds to say he didn’t get the most out of it, just as there are whenever Kimi beats Vettel.

As regards the race, while Vettel pulled out a gap at the beginning it wasn’t long before Bottas began to reel him in again. Tyre management was key to that race. There are a number of reports available online where Mercedes rued the fact that they didn’t give Bottas the order to push sooner than they did at the end. Which in turn implies that he was managing things. And sure enough when he turned it on he was significantly quicker than Vettel, albeit on different tyres. Point is the cars looked pretty evenly matched overall and strategy made the difference. It’s not dishonest to take a race as close as that and look beyond the opening laps to see how the cars compared.

Personally I think the cars were too close to call with any certainty, although I’d probably lean to the Ferrari having the upper hand in qualifying. Don’t think it’s a dead cert, though

As for Silverstone, people can change their opinions, big deal. That doesn’t make them dishonest. You’re making far too much of it


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Now we're going in circles so it's best to drop it


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:03 pm 
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So anyway, here's how my list looks to date for the race weekend:

Australia - Mercedes
Bahrain - Mercedes/Ferrari
China - Ferrari
Azerbaijan - Ferrari
Spain - Mercedes
Monaco - Red Bull
Canada - Mercedes/Ferrari
France - Mercedes
Austria - Mercedes
Great Britain - Mercedes/Ferrari
Germany - Ferrari
Hungary - Ferrari

Also, I was revisiting the 2017 season a bit ago and came up with the following:

Overall races where Mercedes might have been best in qualifying - 16
Mercedes outright the best in qualifying - 10
Mercedes arguably the best in qualifying - 6
Mercedes second best in qualifying - 2
Mercedes third best in qualifying - 2

Overall races where Ferrari might have been best in qualifying - 10
Ferrari outright the best in qualifying - 3
Ferrari arguably the best in qualifying - 7
Ferrari second best in qualifying - 9
Ferrari third best in qualifying - 1

Overall races where Mercedes might have been best in the race - 15
Mercedes outright the best in the race - 4
Mercedes arguably the best in the race - 11
Mercedes second best in the race - 2
Mercedes third best in the race - 3

Overall races where Ferrari might have been best in the race - 15
Ferrari outright the best in the race - 2
Ferrari arguably the best in the race - 13
Ferrari second best in the race - 3
Ferrari third best in the race - 2

Mercedes qualifying edge is enough to give the car a clear edge for the season in my view. It was a close season and Ferrari should have been much closer than they were to winning at least one Championship.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Ferrari - 6 China, Baku, Monaco, Canada, Germany and Hungary.
Mercedes - 4 Australia, Spain, France and Austria.
Equal - Bahrain and Silverstone.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:27 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Ferrari - 6 China, Baku, Monaco, Canada, Germany and Hungary.
Mercedes - 4 Australia, Spain, France and Austria.
Equal - Bahrain and Silverstone.



If we ignore Red Bull then, yeah, Ferrari likely had a clear edge in Monaco, albeit the race was somewhat of a farce.

The one I was least sure about was Canada. Originally I just had it down for Ferrari but then decided to call it close enough for a tie. Seems Lewis couldn't perform to his usual level in qualifying and was scuppered by further cooling problems during the race. Vettel + Ferrari were slightly faster than Bottas + Mercedes, as I typically expect.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Invade wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Ferrari - 6 China, Baku, Monaco, Canada, Germany and Hungary.
Mercedes - 4 Australia, Spain, France and Austria.
Equal - Bahrain and Silverstone.



If we ignore Red Bull then, yeah, Ferrari likely had a clear edge in Monaco, albeit the race was somewhat of a farce.

The one I was least sure about was Canada. Originally I just had it down for Ferrari but then decided to call it close enough for a tie. Seems Lewis couldn't perform to his usual level in qualifying and was scuppered by further cooling problems during the race. Vettel + Ferrari were slightly faster than Bottas + Mercedes, as I typically expect.


I was only looking at the top 2 teams, in Monaco the Ferrari was the car to have.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.


Factoring in reliability, Ferrari had the better race car in Austria. Having the fastest car means little if the driver is unable to cross the finish line due to a mechanical failure.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:01 pm 
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aice wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.


Factoring in reliability, Ferrari had the better race car in Austria. Having the fastest car means little if the driver is unable to cross the finish line due to a mechanical failure.



I can see this point of view but do not apply it. If there is a chronic problem such as having constant PU reliability problems then I might factor it in, but for what appear to be one-off instances it's hard to know if a team just dropped the ball or if it's a part of the inevitable rare "bad luck" which can strike any team. The way I look at it is, which car would I rather be in heading into the race? For Austria it's absolutely the Mercedes. In the end, with hindsight, we can see that we'd rather be in the Ferrari.

In 2017, Ferrari had an extremely competitive car after the summer break but a litany of incidents ended any real Championship battle. A bunch of different errors from the drivers and the team led to their downfall but it would be odd to just offer unconditional mitigating circumstances in the appraisal of the respective cars because one team were under par.

Of course, it's difficult to truly pinpoint the cause for many of these incidents. Did Ferrari simply mess up with a great package last year, or were they pushing hyper aggressively to try and keep up with Mercedes and paid the price :?:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:56 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
This is what I mean by the disingenuous nature of the contributions in here. That's also what I was talking about with Kingvoid's post. Bahrain was a race where Ferrari set pole by 2 tenths of a second and where Vettel easily gapped Bottas during the first stint. The fact that Ferrari had some tire issues during the race does not somehow negate the fact that they were obviously faster.

As for Silverstone; I don't even have to make that argument. Let's look at what Kingvoid said himself:
"Today in Silverstone, I reckon Ferrari may have had the faster car in qualifying (by maybe a tenth). Hamilton just put together an amazing lap while Seb and Kimi made some small mistakes."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14886&start=1080

Do you know that there’s a difference between qualifying pace and race pace?

This applies to both Bahrain and Silverstone btw.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Thoughts from others on who has had the edge so far this season? From what I've gathered it's quite even, but I like Ferrari going forward due their huge leap in power.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Thoughts from others on who has had the edge so far this season? From what I've gathered it's quite even, but I like Ferrari going forward due their huge leap in power.


It's close but I think Ferrari have a slight edge now, but I still think it will come down to driver/team performance.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Thoughts from others on who has had the edge so far this season? From what I've gathered it's quite even, but I like Ferrari going forward due their huge leap in power.


I'd say Ferrari have had a slight edge on average thus far.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
One race where I completely disagree with the general consensus is Bahrain. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ferrari had the best car that weekend. Mercedes had better race pace on one of the best circuits for overtaking.

1. Bottas was faster than Vettel on supersoft tyres and forced Ferrari to pit early him early to avoid being undercut.
2. Bottas put in a 33.7 on medium tyres right after his pitstop with 35 laps of fuel still onboard, which remained the fastest lap until the end of the race.
3. Ferrari were struggling with fuel consumption in Bahrain and were doing a lot of lifting and coasting.

Mercedes have had the best race car in Australia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Austria and Silverstone IMO. That's 6 weekends out of 12.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

that Mercedes have had the best car for 50% of the races? That was your point? Or was it that you believe otherwise, therefore this thread is a joke?

Whether you agree with KingVoid or not, he's put forward a legitimate, logical case for Mercedes being quicker in Bahrain. Maybe you can disprove it by putting your own forward, but dismissing it as evidence of this thread being a joke (assuming that's the point you're making - a bit confused otherwise) just demonstrates a lack of tolerance of differing views and is contrary to your earlier post that you have no problem with or welcome people having an honest opinion that is different to your own

This is what I mean by the disingenuous nature of the contributions in here. That's also what I was talking about with Kingvoid's post. Bahrain was a race where Ferrari set pole by 2 tenths of a second and where Vettel easily gapped Bottas during the first stint. The fact that Ferrari had some tire issues during the race does not somehow negate the fact that they were obviously faster.

As for Silverstone; I don't even have to make that argument. Let's look at what Kingvoid said himself:
"Today in Silverstone, I reckon Ferrari may have had the faster car in qualifying (by maybe a tenth). Hamilton just put together an amazing lap while Seb and Kimi made some small mistakes."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14886&start=1080

Now this is someone with an undeniably biased track record in the forum and yet it was so clear that Ferrari were quicker, he couldn't justify misrepresenting the events of the day. Now that some time has passed, however, and maybe memory has faded a bit, he wants to say that the Mercedes were faster at Silverstone (which they clearly were not).

Anyway, it's probably pointless to have this type of discussion in here because it relies on people being honest.

It’s ridiculous, not to mention conceited, to write off contrary opinion as dishonesty. In Bahrain Ferrari did set pole by two tenths but Hamilton was also uncharacteristically slower than Bottas. In fact, he was a tenth slower than Bottas and Kimi, except you can’t blame the former on the car. There are grounds to say he didn’t get the most out of it, just as there are whenever Kimi beats Vettel.

As regards the race, while Vettel pulled out a gap at the beginning it wasn’t long before Bottas began to reel him in again. Tyre management was key to that race. There are a number of reports available online where Mercedes rued the fact that they didn’t give Bottas the order to push sooner than they did at the end. Which in turn implies that he was managing things. And sure enough when he turned it on he was significantly quicker than Vettel, albeit on different tyres. Point is the cars looked pretty evenly matched overall and strategy made the difference. It’s not dishonest to take a race as close as that and look beyond the opening laps to see how the cars compared.

Personally I think the cars were too close to call with any certainty, although I’d probably lean to the Ferrari having the upper hand in qualifying. Don’t think it’s a dead cert, though

As for Silverstone, people can change their opinions, big deal. That doesn’t make them dishonest. You’re making far too much of it


I could add to that, talking about dishonesty, but I'm happy to let this go. We'll not going to gain anything more than more accusations of being biased against Hamilton.

What I want to add is that the rain is a leveller, it can wipe out advantages or make slower cars look faster and there are many many examples for this. Unless people think that Senna could have been 2nd in Monaco in '84 (or was it '85?, my memory fails me in this one) being in a backmarker car or Schumacher would have won Spain in that bathtub in 1996. And many many more examples.

It was talked about the Ferrari being faster in the slicks in Hungary, putting the heat in them much better than the Merc. The rain took that advantage from them. Now call it fortunate for Mercedes, unfortunate for Ferrari, karma or whatever you want, it took one of the relative strengths of that car away. And that's what happened. Hamilton and Bottas had some great quali laps and drove really well in the race. And that's about it. No one said that it was handed to them, no one said that Ferrari was suddenly a slow car.


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