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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:13 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
In Canada, I believed that Mercedes was just as good as Ferrari and it was Seb who made the difference while Lewis had an off weekend.

Today in Silverstone, I reckon Ferrari may have had the faster car in qualifying (by maybe a tenth). Hamilton just put together an amazing lap while Seb and Kimi made some small mistakes.


Agree with both parts of your post. I reckon Ferrari will have a slight edge tomorrow, but I'm not sure that will translate to the race win.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:06 pm 
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The problem they both have is the difference in performance between the cars is much smaller than the dirty air effect so it's hard to do much within the races without mistakes or bad luck ahead for the car who's not out in front.

Pit stops are probably going to be the best bet without external influences.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
The problem they both have is the difference in performance between the cars is much smaller than the dirty air effect so it's hard to do much within the races without mistakes or bad luck ahead for the car who's not out in front.

Pit stops are probably going to be the best bet without external influences.

This is true and it's actually the same problem at most circuits. Being a tenth or two quicker won't mean much as the dirty air effect will neutralize any attempt to overtake. Also fresh tires are more than enough to make up for a small raw pace gap (which neutralizes over-cutting).


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:12 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I've shown plenty of actual data but you've lazily ignored it. Even just look at the qualifying session today. Look at where the cars have relative advantage to one another. It's pretty clear that Mercedes have the slight edge in aero while Ferrari have the slight edge in power. That is how they compare and they are quite closely matched at this point in the season.

It's interesting how, once again, you choose to suggest that Hamilton's comment is based in "self-interest" simply because it undermines your point while never hesitating to use his quotes if you feel they help your points. Anyway, I'm prepared to leave it at that in the interest of not wasting any more of my time but if you press the issue, I will gather the precise relevant data to put the point to bed conclusively.

Well you can leave it at that if you want but I'm not going to let some keyboard warrior call me lazy without calling him out. I've tried to keep this dispassionate but you appear intent on trying to cause an argument. Why you can't debate like an adult is anybody's guess. You appear unable to debate without throwing accusations or slurs around like confetti.

You haven't provided any data in this exchange. If you say you have, then frankly you're lying. You tried to draw parallels between top speeds and engine power, which in itself is extremely lazy "analysis," and that's the point I've contested. That's it. I think the cars are too close at the moment to be certain where their advantages lie, since a lot depends on setup anyway and it's hard separate the package out. But I don't have a problem with someone thinking that Ferrari's engine is better, just the dodgy reasoning behind it. Top speed is no evidence of anything

Keyboard warrior? Have it your way. I'll be back with the information required within the next day or so but in the meantime, I'll leave you with this one question: what information have you provided? What data do you have to support your claims? When I post my response with all of the relevant data as well as the analysis of said-data, if you do not provide similar data to support your claims, be prepared to be called out on it. You provide nothing but hot air and want others to have air-tight data sheets. As I mentioned before, annoying as it might be, I will take the time to put a conclusive end to this discussion (feels like de ja vu).
You've got this back to front. I've not asked you for anything. I'm not demanding you provide data, but you're claiming to have already provided it when you haven't, then called me lazy for ignoring data that doesn't actually exist!

I don't need you to provide data. Just don't claim you have when you haven't. Just like you're now claiming that I'm demanding air-tight data sheets when I've not made a single request for anything. You're having a conversation in your mind that I'm not part of but you're projecting that discussion onto me in here. Please stop it.

To avoid confusion, I don't need data to disagree with the notion that top speeds are proof of a better engine. I don't need you to spend time on working out data to answer a non-existent demand of mine. If you want to do it, knock yourself out. But don't do it in response to a demand I haven't made. Look back through our exchange and you'll see that.

First of all, there are data in the sources provided. The fact that you choose to discount it, doesn't mean that it isn't there. Secondly, top speed alone doesn't necessarily isolate engine performance but it certainly is one of the key factors in analyzing it. Making the point (about setup) that I have made myself and repeating it to the point of redundancy doesn't strengthen your argument.

In the interest of potentially saving myself some time, let me ask you this: do you agree that the evidence suggests that the Ferrari engine is the most powerful right now? Of course this cannot be 100% proven (unless we get a video of them on the dyno). Scientists will tell you that nothing can ever be proven right. Hypotheses can only be supported by evidence or proven wrong. But considering how the Mercedes and Ferrari cars stack up to one another as well as the way that the customer teams compare to one another; would you agree that, with the evidence we have right now, the Ferrari seems to have the slight edge in power? If you do agree then we really don't need to carry this on any further.

Only one source contains any kind of data in it, and as already pointed out it's two months old. The discussion was about the current situation and both Mercedes and Ferrari have had significant upgrades since then. The other reports - both of them - don't contain any data at all. So no, I don't agree that I've ignored plenty of data and I pointed out why immediately after you provided the links.

In any event, the reason I entered the discussion was because you wrote that top speeds were proof that Ferrari's engine is better than Mercedes' one. It wasn't to stake any claims in Ferrari's behalf, but just to correct that. You've since expanded on it so, although I don't agree that it's one of the key factors at all, I'm happy to agree to disagree on that point.

If we're moving on to discuss which engine is better right now, I thought I'd answered that earlier. I thought Ferrari gained with their new PU, but for me the pendulum has swung back again with Mercedes' 2.1 update. Lauda claims that it's worth up to 2 tenths more and I don't believe Merc were ever that far behind that they would still be catching up after that. But I accept it's possible that the Ferrari PU is more powerful than the Merc, although tbh I find it very hard to separate PU and chassis. We only have to look at Red Bull and McLaren to see that the engine may give a completely different perception of performance depending on how it's packaged. To me they are currently as close to each other as makes no difference. Silverstone, being quite a power-dependant circuit, appears to demonstrate that. Any differences that might exist are just as likely to be in power delivery as in ultimate hp.

If it helps, Vettel is claiming that he feels the Ferrari package is stronger then Mercedes here. Whether that's down to engine, I don't know, but both he and Kimi made small mistakes in Q3 so it's possible that have an edge. It's so close that it's not something they can rely on, though


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:08 pm 
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This was the last special tyre for this season and Merc easily had the pace. If it's engine wise or chassi/tyre hard to tell.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:16 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
This was the last special tyre for this season and Merc easily had the pace. If it's engine wise or chassi/tyre hard to tell.


It's more impressive how Ferrari have managed to match Mercedes on these special tyres specially after Spain.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:11 pm 
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I just have a feeling Ferrari is going to start pulling away from Merc. Huge win for them on Merc's home turf.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:27 am 
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The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:36 am 
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gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 am 
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gregs51 wrote:
Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.


Of course the table lies if that's the conclusion you draw from it - in France Merc won, in Austria they probably should have won if not for strategy/SC, and yesterday they very well could have won if not for Hamilton first botching the start then Kimi punting him off.

Could've easily been 75 points for Hamilton. Instead he got 32 less than that. Bottas also was unlucky in France being punted off, could've outscored both Ferrari's, only in Silverstone probably would have finished behind Vettel on merit but even there he could have done it if no SC came out.

Put otherwise, you don't need too much variables to change to get three Mercedes 1-2's - on performance they were worth that.


Now, to address the point of the topic: yes, I do feel Ferrari have closed the gap on the PU front and I also think they're in better shape than they were at this point last year. They were faster than I thought they'd be in Silverstone, and same goes for Canada. Two tracks where Mercedes were dominant last year.

At this point last year, I thought the season would go towards Mercedes. Now for 2018, I think Ferrari holds the cards to go until the end against Mercedes. They are both fast in qualifying as well as race pace. They have to be regarded as equally competent at this point, not at all the underdog anymore.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 am 
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Why did This require a new thread? There’s alrready a Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull thread where this could’ve gone.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:03 am 
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Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:08 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Why did This require a new thread? There’s alrready a Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull thread where this could’ve gone.


Agreed - Merged into the appropriate thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:18 am 
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gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Last edited by Rockie on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:20 am 
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gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???

By that logic the Honda is more powerful than the Mercedes, surely?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:23 am 
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I still think it's a bit too close to call. Seb said he felt that the Ferrari would be stronger before the race, but on the Mediums Hamilton looked significantly quicker. If he'd managed to get away from pole I think things would have panned out very differently. I don't think either team can afford to relax


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Why are you getting so defensive? I'm simply stating that after this weekend Ferrari power looks to have edged ahead - and this is based on looking at the data regarding speed traps and deployment. Of course aero plays a huge part but I'm not talking about aero. On the evidence available, Ferrari now looks to have the best PU.

I don't understand why it's so important for you to declare that Mercedes remain ahead.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Mod Blue wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Why did This require a new thread? There’s alrready a Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull thread where this could’ve gone.


Agreed - Merged into the appropriate thread.


RaggedMan was that guy in school that reminded the teacher they'd not set any homework this week.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:34 pm 
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gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Why are you getting so defensive? I'm simply stating that after this weekend Ferrari power looks to have edged ahead - and this is based on looking at the data regarding speed traps and deployment. Of course aero plays a huge part but I'm not talking about aero. On the evidence available, Ferrari now looks to have the best PU.

I don't understand why it's so important for you to declare that Mercedes remain ahead.


Not being defensive at all giving you facts, but all you want to say is Ferrari better Mercedes which you don't want facts to get in the way.


Let's see by Williams being last does that mean Honda power better than Mercedes?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:39 pm 
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gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
The works Ferrari cars are regularly registering the fastest top speeds on multiple track styles, they seem to have a deployment advantage on circuits with long straights, and at a power hungry circuit like Silverstone Ferrari powered 5 of the top 10 cars in qualifying. By contrast the next fastest qualifying Mercedes powered car outside the two works' cars was Ocon in 10th place. Efficient cooling also allows them to run aggressive aero. Surely we are at the point where we need to acknowledge that Ferrari power is now the class of the field, and drop all this talk of the Mercedes 'rocketship' engine. There is simply no evidence to support the argument Mercedes holds a significant engine advantage. Also the table never lies - and Ferrari have now outscored Mercedes at the last 3 grand prix.

Strangely I actually think the Mercedes works team have gained ground on the Ferrari works team. A combination of poor luck with safety cars, collisions with other drivers and driver error have contributed to lost Ferrari points, and I actually think they enjoyed a larger advantage earlier in the season whilst Merc were dealing with their tyre issues. Certainly makes for an intriguing season, reminds me of the Schumi vs. Hakkinen years :)


Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Why are you getting so defensive? I'm simply stating that after this weekend Ferrari power looks to have edged ahead - and this is based on looking at the data regarding speed traps and deployment. Of course aero plays a huge part but I'm not talking about aero. On the evidence available, Ferrari now looks to have the best PU.

I don't understand why it's so important for you to declare that Mercedes remain ahead.


"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I think the Mercedes was the car to have (on appearance) but it might be driver or more specifically track related.

- Probably Vettels weakest track
- One of Hamiltons strongest tracks, including Hamilton being further from Bottas in qualifying and race pace than any other race this year.
- Kimi was also closer to Vettel than any other race this year (with a lower spec engine)

The Hamilton-Mercedes package was the one to have this weekend, I expected Ferrari to be the car to have on Sunday given how Hamilton had to use everything to get pole but that wasn't the case.

I think Mercedes would have wanted a much larger gap here to feel any contentness. This is their and Hamilton's track and Ferrari ran them much closer than they would like in raw pace.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm 
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What does "small but significant" even mean... You'd think they're mutually exclusive?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:58 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.


Yes it's based on his opinion and others have different opinions as well, when the Mercedes engine 2.1 came out and they said they could turn it up more if they wanted all were giddy about it, but now somehow without a different spec engine same one introduced, Ferrari have turned it up just at Silverstone quite laughable.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.


Yes it's based on his opinion and others have different opinions as well, when the Mercedes engine 2.1 came out and they said they could turn it up more if they wanted all were giddy about it, but now somehow without a different spec engine same one introduced, Ferrari have turned it up just at Silverstone quite laughable.


Who was giddy about it? Of course Ferrari having any advantage is always a no in your books, the constant theme of Vettel is fighting a better car is more appropriate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:29 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.


Yes it's based on his opinion and others have different opinions as well, when the Mercedes engine 2.1 came out and they said they could turn it up more if they wanted all were giddy about it, but now somehow without a different spec engine same one introduced, Ferrari have turned it up just at Silverstone quite laughable.


Who was giddy about it? Of course Ferrari having any advantage is always a no in your books, the constant theme of Vettel is fighting a better car is more appropriate.


I think its clear that Vettel-Ferrari package is superior for the season so far, even if Mercedes is quicker (debatable either way) the Hamilton-Mercedes has 1 mechanical DNF and 1 gearbox change grid penalty. Vettel is bulletproof thus far.

Similar story last year, Mercedes was the fastr car but also the more reliable thus Hamilton wrapping the title up with 3-4 races to go and it being easily the better car overall by seasons end although it was debatable before Vettel had 2 late season races ruined by reliability (Japan and Malaysia) essentially sealing the title for Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:45 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Could be also that Ferrari powered cars are being developed properly, looking at how Mercedes powered cars are behind Renault powered ones and we know the Renault engine is not as powerful as the Mercedes.


I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Why are you getting so defensive? I'm simply stating that after this weekend Ferrari power looks to have edged ahead - and this is based on looking at the data regarding speed traps and deployment. Of course aero plays a huge part but I'm not talking about aero. On the evidence available, Ferrari now looks to have the best PU.

I don't understand why it's so important for you to declare that Mercedes remain ahead.


"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.

whether it's bias or not, he does seem to gloss over things. For instance, he says about Hamilton's start

..only then for the Ferrari’s long-superior start-line performance to lose him that advantage within seconds

...completely omitting the fact that Bottas' superior start-line performance also lost him that advantage, from further back even than Vettel, and that had nothing to do with the car. Bottas also had a better start than Kimi, which seems to be brushed under the carpet, but because Vettel had a better one than Hamilton it must be down to the car? He seems to be drawing conclusions on car performance while ignoring the fact that Hamilton's start simply wasn't that good. He also talks about Vettel building a gap over Bottas at the beginning as being down to car/engine advantage, seemingly forgetting that earlier in the same paragraph he'd written "at Mercedes, the game plan was to run the early laps conservatively." At the very least this raises questions.

Later in the race, Hughes wrote "Hamilton was the fastest man on track at this point, making up around 6sec on the leaders in as many laps and bringing himself within 5sec of Räikkönen." What I can't understand is why this seemingly contradicts his earlier assertion that Ferrari "had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade," but Hughes gives no explanation for this miraculous fight against the odds.

So I don't know whether it's bias, or if it is then even whether it's conscious or subconscious, but there do appear to be inconsistencies in Hughes' report which raise some questions.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Rosberg in his vlog mentions that Ferrari has found some HP. Not sure how, but they seem to be possibly ahead of Merc now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
gregs51 wrote:

I'm confused, you've almost made my point for me. Williams are plum last, and are not developing their car well, showing that even with a Merc donkey in the back they are still nowhere. Ergo the Merc power myth is debunked. ???


No I have not made your point for you, you basically don't understand what I have said, put the Merc power in the Redbull and comeback to me if you think the Ferrari power is still the best.

Your aero and mechanical grip determines a lot.

Look at Sauber now they have Simone Resta as their TD thats the guy who engineered this years Ferrari, and Ferrari let him join Sauber without gardening leave the amount of data he would have taken over.


Why are you getting so defensive? I'm simply stating that after this weekend Ferrari power looks to have edged ahead - and this is based on looking at the data regarding speed traps and deployment. Of course aero plays a huge part but I'm not talking about aero. On the evidence available, Ferrari now looks to have the best PU.

I don't understand why it's so important for you to declare that Mercedes remain ahead.


"But the evidence of this weekend suggests that Ferrari is now running its spec 2 engine much more aggressively than when it was introduced. The starts, the restarts, the GPS traces of not just the works cars but also the Haas and Saubers suggest that the Ferrari has got a small but significant power advantage over Mercedes."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Mark Hughes said this in his report, of course this gets disregarded by a select few as biased but it is just his opinion and based on Silverstone. Others made the same reference regarding the Ferrari engine this weekend.

whether it's bias or not, he does seem to gloss over things. For instance, he says about Hamilton's start

..only then for the Ferrari’s long-superior start-line performance to lose him that advantage within seconds

...completely omitting the fact that Bottas' superior start-line performance also lost him that advantage, from further back even than Vettel, and that had nothing to do with the car. Bottas also had a better start than Kimi, which seems to be brushed under the carpet, but because Vettel had a better one than Hamilton it must be down to the car? He seems to be drawing conclusions on car performance while ignoring the fact that Hamilton's start simply wasn't that good. He also talks about Vettel building a gap over Bottas at the beginning as being down to car/engine advantage, seemingly forgetting that earlier in the same paragraph he'd written "at Mercedes, the game plan was to run the early laps conservatively." At the very least this raises questions.

Later in the race, Hughes wrote "Hamilton was the fastest man on track at this point, making up around 6sec on the leaders in as many laps and bringing himself within 5sec of Räikkönen." What I can't understand is why this seemingly contradicts his earlier assertion that Ferrari "had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade," but Hughes gives no explanation for this miraculous fight against the odds.

So I don't know whether it's bias, or if it is then even whether it's conscious or subconscious, but there do appear to be inconsistencies in Hughes' report which raise some questions.


I was only showing the comment regarding the Ferrari engine as there was discussion about the engines. I'm not saying it's my opinion the Ferrari had a better engine at Silverstone but just adding to the discussion. Like everyone else on here i havent really got a clue and can only guess, I just enjoy reading information online.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Do you really believe Hamilton was a second a lap faster over Vettel? They was running different races, Vettel pit earlier and has said after the race he was managing his tyres, he has also said he ran his softs too hard. Hamilton was angry and had cars to chase.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I think the Mercedes was the car to have (on appearance) but it might be driver or more specifically track related.

- Probably Vettels weakest track
- One of Hamiltons strongest tracks, including Hamilton being further from Bottas in qualifying and race pace than any other race this year.
- Kimi was also closer to Vettel than any other race this year (with a lower spec engine)

The Hamilton-Mercedes package was the one to have this weekend, I expected Ferrari to be the car to have on Sunday given how Hamilton had to use everything to get pole but that wasn't the case.

I think Mercedes would have wanted a much larger gap here to feel any contentness. This is their and Hamilton's track and Ferrari ran them much closer than they would like in raw pace.


I can agree with just about everything inhere. Vettel got a bit lucky to come away with the win and I do think Hamilton was the fastest package on Sunday, but nonetheless given the items you mention above Ferrari can leave Silverstone on a positive note as they were much more competitive than we expected them to be.

It's not just Silverstone though. It was Canada as well. And while they were faced with a triple-header that was, on paper, going to leave them with a lot of catching up to do in terms of the standings, they actually exit the triple-header with the lead in both WDC and WCC standings.

At this point last year, I thought Mercedes was enough ahead to be certain they would win both titles.
Now, not so much. Vettel and Ferrari will fight. Both teams and drivers need to bring their A-game.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Do you really believe Hamilton was a second a lap faster over Vettel? They was running different races, Vettel pit earlier and has said after the race he was managing his tyres, he has also said he ran his softs too hard. Hamilton was angry and had cars to chase.

No I doubt he was a second faster. My point was only that there appears to be a discrepancy between declaring the Ferrari to be the quicker car and Hamilton having such a pace advantage. And if Vettel ran his Softs too hard, that puts even more questions marks over him having the superior package in the opening stint, especially when Mercedes took the strategic decision to run the opening laps conservatively, according to the article.

Like you, I don't have enough technical expertise to really judge which car is quicker. Could be the Ferrari for all I know, although personally I think they're about as equal as could be. But I find Hughes' article raises more questions than it answers, that's all.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


That can only mean he has it down to Hamilton then


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


That can only mean he has it down to Hamilton then

yeah, but that would be more subjective than objective IMO


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


That can only mean he has it down to Hamilton then

yeah, but that would be more subjective than objective IMO


Bottas was hunting down Vettel on mediums. Hamilton was a lot faster on them too. Pretty sure the Mercedes was a lot faster on the mediums then.

On softs, hard to say, but leaning towards Ferrari having the advantage given Vettel could create a gap and Vettel didn't claw it back in time for the stops.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:02 pm 
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The momentum is definitely with Ferrari, they have nullified the tracks that Mercedes were clearly quicker on last year. Canada, Baku and Silverstone were walks in the park for Mercedes and along with Monza probably there best 4 tracks.

The problem for Mercedes is, I do not see them being close on more traditional Ferrari tracks like Hungary, Singapore, Mexico and Malaysia. Mercedes had a run of tracks to score big on and they may well have but for reliabiltiy issues, tactical errors and collisions.

I expect Mercedes to be very strong in Germany but after that, baring updates, its a bunch of tracks I see Vettel being very strong. Vettel is also very good himself on the asian tracks. Having said that, the biggest factor in this title race is luck thus far, the biggest influence is VSC/SC timing. It has decided or swung so many races. I guess you can't complain when it produces ends like Silverstone though.

Edit, just checked calendar, its more Singapore on wards that will be Ferrari I feel. 3 of the next 4 should be pretty kind to Mercedes tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:06 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ferrari have a much improved engine but still not fastest car for this weekend? I don't see the bit where Hughes says Ferrari was the fasrter car? Maybe I missed it.


It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


That can only mean he has it down to Hamilton then

yeah, but that would be more subjective than objective IMO


Bottas was hunting down Vettel on mediums. Hamilton was a lot faster on them too. Pretty sure the Mercedes was a lot faster on the mediums then.

On softs, hard to say, but leaning towards Ferrari having the advantage given Vettel could create a gap and Vettel didn't claw it back in time for the stops.

I think it's possible the Ferrari was quicker on the Softs, but I also think it's hard to say, given that a) Vettel ran through his tyre life a bit too quick, which might suggest he was pushing too hard, and b) Mercedes were apparently on a conservative strategy in the first stint, which carries with it an implication that they could have gone faster if they had wanted to. In terms of evidence, I don't find anything conclusive there either way.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:

It had a quicker car, with more power and a very effective aero upgrade


That can only mean he has it down to Hamilton then

yeah, but that would be more subjective than objective IMO


Bottas was hunting down Vettel on mediums. Hamilton was a lot faster on them too. Pretty sure the Mercedes was a lot faster on the mediums then.

On softs, hard to say, but leaning towards Ferrari having the advantage given Vettel could create a gap and Vettel didn't claw it back in time for the stops.

I think it's possible the Ferrari was quicker on the Softs, but I also think it's hard to say, given that a) Vettel ran through his tyre life a bit too quick, which might suggest he was pushing too hard, and b) Mercedes were apparently on a conservative strategy in the first stint, which carries with it an implication that they could have gone faster if they had wanted to. In terms of evidence, I don't find anything conclusive there either way.


I'm not sure why you would go conservative in the first stint, Vettel said he ran his tyres too hard and Hughes said in his report they did, I don't think you actually have much to lose by doing that because once the gap is built you can still pit while the car in 2nd is catching but also the car behind is getting into the dirty air. Once you pit then the car in 2nd normally responds anyway, maybe Mercedes plan was just to keep out of the dirty air. Vettel and Ferrari know it's all about the pitstops.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:22 pm 
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austria surprised me with a good race there, silverstone was damn good. really, really cool to see all four of the top cars together. great stuff.
i'm not going to worry about who is faster between mercedes and ferrari. it is so close i am just going to enjoy this season. at the moment it is shaping up to be a heck of a championship battle. enjoy it !


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