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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:11 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
2 front row lockouts - one in a hot rear limited track and one in a cold rear limited track. It definitely looks like Ferrari is more consistent and faster across different conditions and different track types, at least in qualifying. 39 year old Kimi has been the on the front row in every race so far!

Strange how Vettel has been saying Mercedes is faster in the lead up to both the last 2 weekends yet the opposite seems to be true.

How is it strange? After the first race Mercedes looked very much ahead, which would explain Seb's thoughts before Bahrain. And many said this week Mercedes would return to the front, given the nature of the track. What's so strange about it?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Merc still seems to have an edge on long runs, especially on harder tyres, to early to judge yet IMO, but the Ferrari looks fast in qualifying.

Lots of rumours about Merc unable to burn oil, overheating both gearboxes and tyres, and Ferrari on the limit already, with oil fumes out the rear..

Meanwhile Red Bull really hard to judge.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
2 front row lockouts - one in a hot rear limited track and one in a cold rear limited track. It definitely looks like Ferrari is more consistent and faster across different conditions and different track types, at least in qualifying. 39 year old Kimi has been the on the front row in every race so far!

Strange how Vettel has been saying Mercedes is faster in the lead up to both the last 2 weekends yet the opposite seems to be true.

How is it strange? After the first race Mercedes looked very much ahead, which would explain Seb's thoughts before Bahrain. And many said this week Mercedes would return to the front, given the nature of the track. What's so strange about it?


It's strange because Ferrari is the faster car.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
2 front row lockouts - one in a hot rear limited track and one in a cold rear limited track. It definitely looks like Ferrari is more consistent and faster across different conditions and different track types, at least in qualifying. 39 year old Kimi has been the on the front row in every race so far!

Strange how Vettel has been saying Mercedes is faster in the lead up to both the last 2 weekends yet the opposite seems to be true.

How is it strange? After the first race Mercedes looked very much ahead, which would explain Seb's thoughts before Bahrain. And many said this week Mercedes would return to the front, given the nature of the track. What's so strange about it?


It's strange because Ferrari is the faster car.

see above


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:41 pm 
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It will be interesting to see if Ferrari have maintained their advantage around circuits like Monaco, Hungary and Singapore. They have a longer wheelbase this season. I can imagine Red Bull being the car to beat around those circuits now.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:16 am 
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Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:17 am 
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I'd say in the race it was rather even between the top 3. Qualifying was more obvious.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:58 am 
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AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:10 am 
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:14 am 
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


Yes, Vettel controlled the race in a similar fashion to Hamilton in Australia. Holding a 3.5 second lead.

A combination of a slight error on Vettels in lap, a cautious pit entry from Vettel, a slightly slow pit stop (although 2.8 is still quick for me) and a monster undercut lost it for Ferrari. But once he was out the pits he was the only car able to follow that closely and harass another car on equal age tyres all race. He was definitely quicker than Bottas in the 2nd stint.

This is the point I was making to you last race. Degradation is huge this year, old tyres are really slow. Hence why new tyres at the end of the Bahrain race would have been 5 seconds a lap quicker than the old shot ones they were going around on.

I look forward to seeing the in laps times, out lap times, pit lane times to see how exactly Ferrari lost that lead.


Last edited by lamo on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.

I think Ferrari were only the qualifying kings this race. Last race I'm not completely convinced Mercedes couldn't have done better, but this time out it was 100% Ferrari.

Of course, at the first race it was 100% Mercedes, so it's a little tricky to call anything out for sure. But yes, Ferrari shouldn't have given away their lead at the first stops. That was poor from them and they need to look at what went wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:23 am 
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.

I think Ferrari were only the qualifying kings this race. Last race I'm not completely convinced Mercedes couldn't have done better, but this time out it was 100% Ferrari.

Of course, at the first race it was 100% Mercedes, so it's a little tricky to call anything out for sure. But yes, Ferrari shouldn't have given away their lead at the first stops. That was poor from them and they need to look at what went wrong.


Plenty of races last year were Mercedes took pole by a similar margin, I don't remember you questioning if the Mercedes was actually quicker in those ones. Maybe we need to re-evaluate Mercedes 1 lap advantage in 2017?

For example Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.100
Spain +0.050
Austria +0.050
Brazil +0.060

Mercedes were +0.165 in Bahrain. So if that margin is "too close to call" that makes Mercedes qualifying advantage very small in 2017 - IF we apply the same rules to both seasons that is. There were also another 2-3 races Ferrari were within 0.250 too.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:30 am 
The next race will tell us a lot about these cars. Baku was Mercedes most dominant qualifying in 2017. 1.1 seconds ahead of Ferrari and largely down to the 22 seconds full throttle final sector and the engine.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:30 am 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.

I think Ferrari were only the qualifying kings this race. Last race I'm not completely convinced Mercedes couldn't have done better, but this time out it was 100% Ferrari.

Of course, at the first race it was 100% Mercedes, so it's a little tricky to call anything out for sure. But yes, Ferrari shouldn't have given away their lead at the first stops. That was poor from them and they need to look at what went wrong.


Plenty of races last year were Mercedes took pole by a similar margin, I don't remember you questioning if the Mercedes was actually quicker in those ones. Maybe we need to re-evaluate Mercedes 1 lap advantage in 2017?

For example Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.100
Spain +0.050
Austria +0.050
Brazil +0.060

Mercedes were +0.165 in Bahrain. So if that margin is "too close to call" that makes Mercedes qualifying advantage very small in 2017 - IF we apply the same rules to both seasons that is.

Since I never said the qualifying advantage was huge in those races, that makes your point a bit redundant. But if you want to pretend their qualifying mode didn't give them an edge overall last year, knock yourself out.

It's strange why you feel the need to revisit last year, instead of focusing on this one. There are two weekends where one team had an undisputed advantage and one where the differences were smaller. On the strength of it, it looks as though Ferrari have the upper hand in qualifying at the moment and I'm happy to state that.

Edit: by the way, I looked up China and the margin to pole was +0.186, not 0.100. Why do you feel to make things up all the time? For someone who is so keen on stats, you sure play fast and loose with them


Last edited by Zoue on Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:17 am 
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.

I think Ferrari were only the qualifying kings this race. Last race I'm not completely convinced Mercedes couldn't have done better, but this time out it was 100% Ferrari.

Of course, at the first race it was 100% Mercedes, so it's a little tricky to call anything out for sure. But yes, Ferrari shouldn't have given away their lead at the first stops. That was poor from them and they need to look at what went wrong.


Plenty of races last year were Mercedes took pole by a similar margin, I don't remember you questioning if the Mercedes was actually quicker in those ones. Maybe we need to re-evaluate Mercedes 1 lap advantage in 2017?

For example Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.100
Spain +0.050
Austria +0.050
Brazil +0.060

Mercedes were +0.165 in Bahrain. So if that margin is "too close to call" that makes Mercedes qualifying advantage very small in 2017 - IF we apply the same rules to both seasons that is.

Since I never said the qualifying advantage was huge in those races, that makes your point a bit redundant. But if you want to pretend their qualifying mode didn't give them an edge overall last year, knock yourself out.
I neither implied nor stated anything of the sort. So lets not divert the discussion to something I haven't stated

It's strange why you feel the need to revisit last year, instead of focusing on this one. There are two weekends where one team had an undisputed advantage and one where the differences were smaller. On the strength of it, it looks as though Ferrari have the upper hand in qualifying at the moment and I'm happy to state that.

Why is it strange? I didn't realise, you consider both cars 1-2 the grid and being 0.165 too close too call. So at least we know that now for when Mercedes take pole with a 1-2 by a similar margin later in the year that is your stand point. I never heard you say that last year when Mercedes took marginal poles, that is why I mentioned it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:27 am 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the opposite of last year. Ferrari is the saturday king and come race day its a lot closer. I hope those who were so vocal about Mercedes gaining track position last year through its qualifying advantage remain consistent now Ferrari have it.

I think Ferrari were only the qualifying kings this race. Last race I'm not completely convinced Mercedes couldn't have done better, but this time out it was 100% Ferrari.

Of course, at the first race it was 100% Mercedes, so it's a little tricky to call anything out for sure. But yes, Ferrari shouldn't have given away their lead at the first stops. That was poor from them and they need to look at what went wrong.


Plenty of races last year were Mercedes took pole by a similar margin, I don't remember you questioning if the Mercedes was actually quicker in those ones. Maybe we need to re-evaluate Mercedes 1 lap advantage in 2017?

For example Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.100
Spain +0.050
Austria +0.050
Brazil +0.060

Mercedes were +0.165 in Bahrain. So if that margin is "too close to call" that makes Mercedes qualifying advantage very small in 2017 - IF we apply the same rules to both seasons that is.

Since I never said the qualifying advantage was huge in those races, that makes your point a bit redundant. But if you want to pretend their qualifying mode didn't give them an edge overall last year, knock yourself out.
I neither implied nor stated anything of the sort. So lets not divert the discussion to something I haven't stated

It's strange why you feel the need to revisit last year, instead of focusing on this one. There are two weekends where one team had an undisputed advantage and one where the differences were smaller. On the strength of it, it looks as though Ferrari have the upper hand in qualifying at the moment and I'm happy to state that.

Why is it strange? I didn't realise, you consider both cars 1-2 the grid and being 0.165 too close too call. So at least we know that now for when Mercedes take pole with a 1-2 by a similar margin later in the year that is your stand point. I never heard you say that last year when Mercedes took marginal poles, that is why I mentioned it.

It's strange, because each year different factors come into play and the years aren't identikit copies of each other. And as usual there is more to the figures than meets the eye and what you write tends to heavily obscure things that don't support your point of view. For instance, the China gap is wrong, while in Austria you conveniently fail to mention that yellow flags prevented the top drivers from improving over their banker laps.

We are only three races into this year. It looks like Ferrari have turned the 1st race deficit around, although such a large swing is a little surprising. If it carries on like this then yes, it will look like Ferrari have a qualifying advantage


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:50 am 
Sorry, China was 0.180. Point still the same as its almost identical to Bahrain 2018.

Good point regarding Austria. Ferrari only used max mode in the second run of qualifying in Q3 in 2017 so Vettel possibly lost a pole there as Mercedes ran Max mode in both runs and Ferrari always had much bigger gain on the 2nd run in 2017 relative to Mercedes. I believe Vettel improved on the 2nd run in 2017 in 19 out of 20 races.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:08 am 
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lamo wrote:
Sorry, China was 0.180. Point still the same as its almost identical to Bahrain 2018.

Good point regarding Austria. Ferrari only used max mode in the second run of qualifying in Q3 in 2017 so Vettel possibly lost a pole there as Mercedes ran Max mode in both runs and Ferrari always had much bigger gain on the 2nd run in 2017 relative to Mercedes. I believe Vettel improved on the 2nd run in 2017 in 19 out of 20 races.

China was 0.186. Point about Austria is that you cannot draw conclusions from an aborted Q3.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:55 pm 
Red Bull are not in the title fight for the reason I pointed out on page 1, Verstappen errors and reliability.

Vettel is currently on 54 points, Ricciardo on 37 and Max on 18.

Max has blown at least 30 points due to purely driver error. He could easily be on 48+ points right now.

Ricciardo, was running 4th in Bahrain when he broke down on lap 1. Something tells me he would have been on the SS at the end and hunting down the leaders for the win. Red Bull are good at strategy and would have spotted the opportunity, he might have won that race. But even just saying he would get 4th.. that would put him on 49 points.

Both Red Bull drivers could be in the this title fight but the car is too unreliable and Max makes too many mistakes.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:59 pm 
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Sorry, China was 0.180. Point still the same as its almost identical to Bahrain 2018.

Good point regarding Austria. Ferrari only used max mode in the second run of qualifying in Q3 in 2017 so Vettel possibly lost a pole there as Mercedes ran Max mode in both runs and Ferrari always had much bigger gain on the 2nd run in 2017 relative to Mercedes. I believe Vettel improved on the 2nd run in 2017 in 19 out of 20 races.

China was 0.186. Point about Austria is that you cannot draw conclusions from an aborted Q3.


Yes my rounding was a little off, correct numbers-

Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.186
Spain +0.051
Austria +0.042
Brazil +0.028
Malaysia +0.045

Ferrari were on pole or within 0.051 of it in 9 of the 20 races last year. Mercedes was definitely the car to beat over 1 lap and especially on high speed tracks they had a big advantage - but in 45% of the races Ferrari still had an excellent shot at pole. It will be interesting to see how that figure is this year.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:34 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


I know your agenda by now so do keep pushing, if you read some more you might see I'm not the only one having a hard time judging which car is the fastest now.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:40 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


I know your agenda by now so do keep pushing, if you read some more you might see I'm not the only one having a hard time judging which car is the fastest now.

No it's you who has the agenda here. You can track my posts quite clearly. I call it as I see it. After Australia, I was saying Mercedes have the advantage this season. Obviously the last two races have changed my perception but when the evidence suggested Mercedes were stronger, I 100% went with the evidence.

You, on the other hand, will always stick to your agenda regardless of what evidence unfolds. A person would have to be a fool to buy your little act here. Your track record speaks for itself. Same with a couple of other people in the forum...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


I know your agenda by now so do keep pushing, if you read some more you might see I'm not the only one having a hard time judging which car is the fastest now.

No it's you who has the agenda here. You can track my posts quite clearly. I call it as I see it. After Australia, I was saying Mercedes have the advantage this season. Obviously the last two races have changed my perception but when the evidence suggested Mercedes were stronger, I 100% went with the evidence.

You, on the other hand, will always stick to your agenda regardless of what evidence unfolds. A person would have to be a fool to buy your little act here. Your track record speaks for itself. Same with a couple of other people in the forum...


The only answer I can get is that your projecting, but do continue.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:06 pm 
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lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


Yes, Vettel controlled the race in a similar fashion to Hamilton in Australia. Holding a 3.5 second lead.

A combination of a slight error on Vettels in lap, a cautious pit entry from Vettel, a slightly slow pit stop (although 2.8 is still quick for me) and a monster undercut lost it for Ferrari. But once he was out the pits he was the only car able to follow that closely and harass another car on equal age tyres all race. He was definitely quicker than Bottas in the 2nd stint.

This is the point I was making to you last race. Degradation is huge this year, old tyres are really slow. Hence why new tyres at the end of the Bahrain race would have been 5 seconds a lap quicker than the old shot ones they were going around on.

I look forward to seeing the in laps times, out lap times, pit lane times to see how exactly Ferrari lost that lead.


Did Vettel stay out 1 lap longer or 2?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:25 pm 
F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


Yes, Vettel controlled the race in a similar fashion to Hamilton in Australia. Holding a 3.5 second lead.

A combination of a slight error on Vettels in lap, a cautious pit entry from Vettel, a slightly slow pit stop (although 2.8 is still quick for me) and a monster undercut lost it for Ferrari. But once he was out the pits he was the only car able to follow that closely and harass another car on equal age tyres all race. He was definitely quicker than Bottas in the 2nd stint.

This is the point I was making to you last race. Degradation is huge this year, old tyres are really slow. Hence why new tyres at the end of the Bahrain race would have been 5 seconds a lap quicker than the old shot ones they were going around on.

I look forward to seeing the in laps times, out lap times, pit lane times to see how exactly Ferrari lost that lead.


Did Vettel stay out 1 lap longer or 2?

He pitted the lap after Bottas


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


Yes, Vettel controlled the race in a similar fashion to Hamilton in Australia. Holding a 3.5 second lead.

A combination of a slight error on Vettels in lap, a cautious pit entry from Vettel, a slightly slow pit stop (although 2.8 is still quick for me) and a monster undercut lost it for Ferrari. But once he was out the pits he was the only car able to follow that closely and harass another car on equal age tyres all race. He was definitely quicker than Bottas in the 2nd stint.

This is the point I was making to you last race. Degradation is huge this year, old tyres are really slow. Hence why new tyres at the end of the Bahrain race would have been 5 seconds a lap quicker than the old shot ones they were going around on.

I look forward to seeing the in laps times, out lap times, pit lane times to see how exactly Ferrari lost that lead.


Did Vettel stay out 1 lap longer or 2?

He pitted the lap after Bottas


For some reason I though it was 2 laps, must have been some lap by Bottas.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:11 pm 
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What do people expect the order to be in Baku?

Obviously expecting Red Bull not to be as close due to the Renault engine. Ferrari and Mercedes seemed to be pretty evenly matched in the speed traps yesterday, not sure about today.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:22 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Still to hard to judge, no clear advantage for none, Red Bull back in mix only circumstances?

It's funny, with races more even than this last year, you were confident calling Mercedes the clear favorite. How many times did we hear that the qualifying advantage is enough, even if they are evenly matched on race day?

I didn't even see two teams that were evenly matched on race day. What I saw was Vettel able to pull a comfortable gap early in the race and then maintain it. Ferrari really dropped the ball by allowing Bottas to pit first. They just got caught napping there. Once he pit for new tires, Vettel was all over Bottas. It was actually extremely difficult to overtake at this track unless you had a tire advantage but Vettel still had a lot of DRS attempts against Bottas. So Ferrari outqualified Mercedes by half a second, comfortably maintained a gap during the first stint and then, after losing the lead, pressured Bottas from behind to a far greater extent than Bottas ever pressured Vettel and yet you say that everything looks even....


I know your agenda by now so do keep pushing, if you read some more you might see I'm not the only one having a hard time judging which car is the fastest now.

No it's you who has the agenda here. You can track my posts quite clearly. I call it as I see it. After Australia, I was saying Mercedes have the advantage this season. Obviously the last two races have changed my perception but when the evidence suggested Mercedes were stronger, I 100% went with the evidence.

You, on the other hand, will always stick to your agenda regardless of what evidence unfolds. A person would have to be a fool to buy your little act here. Your track record speaks for itself. Same with a couple of other people in the forum...


The only answer I can get is that your projecting, but do continue.

No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:58 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Sorry, China was 0.180. Point still the same as its almost identical to Bahrain 2018.

Good point regarding Austria. Ferrari only used max mode in the second run of qualifying in Q3 in 2017 so Vettel possibly lost a pole there as Mercedes ran Max mode in both runs and Ferrari always had much bigger gain on the 2nd run in 2017 relative to Mercedes. I believe Vettel improved on the 2nd run in 2017 in 19 out of 20 races.

China was 0.186. Point about Austria is that you cannot draw conclusions from an aborted Q3.


Yes my rounding was a little off, correct numbers-

Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.186
Spain +0.051
Austria +0.042
Brazil +0.028
Malaysia +0.045

Ferrari were on pole or within 0.051 of it in 9 of the 20 races last year. Mercedes was definitely the car to beat over 1 lap and especially on high speed tracks they had a big advantage - but in 45% of the races Ferrari still had an excellent shot at pole. It will be interesting to see how that figure is this year.

Checked Brazil randomly and at least that one is incorrect as well.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:01 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
What do people expect the order to be in Baku?

Obviously expecting Red Bull not to be as close due to the Renault engine. Ferrari and Mercedes seemed to be pretty evenly matched in the speed traps yesterday, not sure about today.

Tricky one to predict. It will probably mostly be about who get their tyres working the best (unfortunately).

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:38 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:05 am 
Covalent wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Sorry, China was 0.180. Point still the same as its almost identical to Bahrain 2018.

Good point regarding Austria. Ferrari only used max mode in the second run of qualifying in Q3 in 2017 so Vettel possibly lost a pole there as Mercedes ran Max mode in both runs and Ferrari always had much bigger gain on the 2nd run in 2017 relative to Mercedes. I believe Vettel improved on the 2nd run in 2017 in 19 out of 20 races.

China was 0.186. Point about Austria is that you cannot draw conclusions from an aborted Q3.


Yes my rounding was a little off, correct numbers-

Ferrari were the following off pole last year;
China +0.186
Spain +0.051
Austria +0.042
Brazil +0.028
Malaysia +0.045

Ferrari were on pole or within 0.051 of it in 9 of the 20 races last year. Mercedes was definitely the car to beat over 1 lap and especially on high speed tracks they had a big advantage - but in 45% of the races Ferrari still had an excellent shot at pole. It will be interesting to see how that figure is this year.

Checked Brazil randomly and at least that one is incorrect as well.


My bad for compiling numbers yesterday after 4 hours sleep. Brazil is indeed +0.038


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:19 am 
Baku will be interesting in terms of qualifying. It has by far the biggest test of the engine of any track, although its a lot to do with deployment as it has a 22 second full throttle section leading to the first corner. So in theory you need to fully deploy right before your qualifying lap for a good 10 seconds at least. During the bulk of it and then for 18 odd seconds at the end. I don’t think any car can recovery that kind of energy. But an efficient recovery system is key to a good qualifying lap.

Mercedes were 1.1 seconds ahead of Ferrari in qualifying here last year, by far there biggest margin in the dry.

I see Ferrari as being closer but that is a huge gap to bridge, although the tyre selection is; US,SS,S. I think we will see a 1 stop SS,S race. Mercedes could potentially do Q3 and Q2 on the SS if they cant get the US working. Hamilton’s Q2 lap on softs was only 0.25 slower than his Q3 lap on US’s in china.

Baku has the most crazy DRS, in that if you get DRS you will overtake. But getting into DRS is tough.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:31 am 
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Posts: 23910
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

The Merc certainly seems more competitive in the race and in the last two Bottas has tended to stick with Vettel fairly well. Hamilton is the wild card here, I think. He himself has admitted that he simply wasn't comfortable in the car last weekend and you have to wonder what the situation would be like if he was. He's usually better than Bottas in both the race and qualifying (although it has to be said that's not guaranteed), while that's not been the case in the last two races. Makes judging the actual potential of the car quite difficult.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:39 am 
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Posts: 2955
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.


Doesn't meant the Mercedes was faster, the undercut and use of medium tyres is strong at China. Also holding off another driver yesterday while on the same strategy isn't really something to use when deciding which car is faster. The fact Bottas had to hold off Vettel for a number of laps with DRS while Vettel could keep a steady gap to Bottas would show Ferrari was the faster car.

Funny thing is last year if Merc got pole it was the car of the weekend, Ferrari get pole and it's hard to decide :?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.


Doesn't meant the Mercedes was faster, the undercut and use of medium tyres is strong at China. Also holding off another driver yesterday while on the same strategy isn't really something to use when deciding which car is faster. The fact Bottas had to hold off Vettel for a number of laps with DRS while Vettel could keep a steady gap to Bottas would show Ferrari was the faster car.

Funny thing is last year if Merc got pole it was the car of the weekend, Ferrari get pole and it's hard to decide :?

Three and a half seconds is quite extreme for an undercut, though. Bottas drove very quickly and put in a lap half a second faster than anything Vettel managed to do all race. There was nothing wrong with Mercedes' race pace.

Ferrari were definitely quicker in qualifying - I don't think anyone has contested that? Bahrain was somewhat closer and Australia was heavily in Mercedes' favour. I don't see what is so contentious about people being cautious with such massive performance swings. Clearly this year is not so straightforward.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2955
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.


Doesn't meant the Mercedes was faster, the undercut and use of medium tyres is strong at China. Also holding off another driver yesterday while on the same strategy isn't really something to use when deciding which car is faster. The fact Bottas had to hold off Vettel for a number of laps with DRS while Vettel could keep a steady gap to Bottas would show Ferrari was the faster car.

Funny thing is last year if Merc got pole it was the car of the weekend, Ferrari get pole and it's hard to decide :?

Three and a half seconds is quite extreme for an undercut, though. Bottas drove very quickly and put in a lap half a second faster than anything Vettel managed to do all race. There was nothing wrong with Mercedes' race pace.

Ferrari were definitely quicker in qualifying - I don't think anyone has contested that? Bahrain was somewhat closer and Australia was heavily in Mercedes' favour. I don't see what is so contentious about people being cautious with such massive performance swings. Clearly this year is not so straightforward.


The undercut wasn't just Bottas doing a fast lap with everything switched onto max, it included fresh medium tyres which the Mercedes enjoy, strong undercut, Vettel mistake, Ferrari slow pitstop, all collected together led to the undercut. It wasn't just everything was spot on and the Mercedes was faster, race pace isn't just over 1 lap and that's why Bottas couldn't pull away.

There was nothing wrong with Mercedes race pace, I just don't think it was quite as good as Ferrari's. 1 quali lap in a race can decide the win due to how racing is these days, doesn't mean the team in front has matched race pace. Seeing cars struggle to overtake before the SC was depressing, doesn't make the rest of the season look good.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:14 am 
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https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

"Ferrari had under-estimated just how powerful the undercut effect would be around a track with such high degradation. As the race entered the first pitstop window they really needed to have guided Vettel into having a significantly bigger lead than the 3.4sec he held over Bottas at the end of lap 18.

Bottas’ in-lap pace on lap 19 was strong, Mercedes completed one of its fastest ever stops, the car stationary for just 1.8sec as the mediums were fitted – and Ferrari instructed Vettel to box in response. Too late. His old softs were around 2sec slower than Bottas’ fresh mediums, Valtteri nailing the crucial out-lap as hard as he dared. Vettel also ran a little wide coming into the pit entry road.

One week on from Ferrari’s nasty pits mishap in Bahrain, it was understandably cautious this weekend. Vettel’s stop was a full 1sec slower than Bottas’. Added to the undercut effect, it lost Vettel position to Bottas. There was nothing to suggest the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari; the Scuderia had lost the lead through a simple misjudgement.

Vettel: “We need to look at what happened. We were quite sure we’d come out in front – but we didn’t.” The undercut effect was massively bigger here than in the first two races because of the much higher tyre deg. Mercedes had got its head around this with greater precision than Ferrari."


Not sure if the times are correct but Vettel lost a second in the pitstop plus whatever time he lost due to his mistake. Old softs to new mediums was 2 seconds slower.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.


Doesn't meant the Mercedes was faster, the undercut and use of medium tyres is strong at China. Also holding off another driver yesterday while on the same strategy isn't really something to use when deciding which car is faster. The fact Bottas had to hold off Vettel for a number of laps with DRS while Vettel could keep a steady gap to Bottas would show Ferrari was the faster car.

Funny thing is last year if Merc got pole it was the car of the weekend, Ferrari get pole and it's hard to decide :?

Three and a half seconds is quite extreme for an undercut, though. Bottas drove very quickly and put in a lap half a second faster than anything Vettel managed to do all race. There was nothing wrong with Mercedes' race pace.

Ferrari were definitely quicker in qualifying - I don't think anyone has contested that? Bahrain was somewhat closer and Australia was heavily in Mercedes' favour. I don't see what is so contentious about people being cautious with such massive performance swings. Clearly this year is not so straightforward.


The undercut wasn't just Bottas doing a fast lap with everything switched onto max, it included fresh medium tyres which the Mercedes enjoy, strong undercut, Vettel mistake, Ferrari slow pitstop, all collected together led to the undercut. It wasn't just everything was spot on and the Mercedes was faster, race pace isn't just over 1 lap and that's why Bottas couldn't pull away.

There was nothing wrong with Mercedes race pace, I just don't think it was quite as good as Ferrari's. 1 quali lap in a race can decide the win due to how racing is these days, doesn't mean the team in front has matched race pace. Seeing cars struggle to overtake before the SC was depressing, doesn't make the rest of the season look good.

I think race pace between the two is too hard to call at the moment. I agree that qualifying can be the deciding factor, as it was last year, and the fact that China, reportedly one of the easiest tracks for overtaking, was such a procession is a little alarming, yes. I don't want to see the race decided on Saturday, no matter who gets pole.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:21 am 
3.5 seconds isn't that extreme for an undercut at all, especially on a high degradation track and with 1 second of it in the pit lane. But one thing in Mercedes favour over Ferrari is its ability to switch the tyres on immediately. This was evident yesterday with Bottas' out lap and also after the SC went in, he was quicker than Vettel when the tyres were cold for that first lap and a half. My gut feeling was Vettel was significantly quicker than Bottas when they went onto mediums, he was the only car to be able to hound another car whilst on a similar age/compound tyre. Everybody else in this scenario couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of the car in front due to dirty air.

The undercut was just as strong in Bahrain too.

Vettel lead Bottas by 2.2 seconds.

Vettel pitted 2 laps before Bottas.

The gap was then 7.7 seconds.

Vettel gained 5.5 seconds in two laps.

That is also the reason Vettel jumped in the pits in Bahrain because the Mercedes boys were out in the pits ready to undercut him. If Bottas had pitted a lap before in Bahrain he would have lead the race there too. Its going to be who is bravest to pit earliest this year.

Old tyres are really slow this year, its why Kimi was going to win in Bahrain on his new SS's. The teams are trying to run 1 stoppers when 2 stoppers are quicker (in Bahrain and china at least)


Last edited by lamo on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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