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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:21 pm 
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When did Ferrari introduce engine#2?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:50 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
When did Ferrari introduce engine#2?


Last race, Canada, as planned.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes, I think worst case scenario is a new "old spec" engine in France. But even if they go that route, that old spec engine will not be the same one they installed 3 months ago in Australia, it will likely have many, if not most of the upgrades of the complete new spec to give some gains.


Depends entirely of what the new spec consists, which parts are impacted and which dependencies there are. It's not like usual car or aero design, they can't bring new stuff every race because there's only 3 of each part (actually, 2 of some, 3 of the others) allowed during a season so the approach to developing a new spec could very well mean that it's all or nothing as everything is meant to be fitted together.

So it's entirely possible that if they can't use the new spec, it will be a full begin-2018 spec.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
When did Ferrari introduce engine#2?


Last race, Canada, as planned.

just add: for Vettel only. Kimi had to change his engine a few races ago so he'll effectively have one less new spec than Vettel to play with


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


By the same token, when Bottas beats Hamilton everyone seems to assume that it is Hamilton underperforming and not Bottas performing above expectation.

Point is that some of the gaps that people use as "proof" of car superiority exist within teams and then they are accepted as one driver out-performing another. But when it's between team people look at the tiniest margins and try to make out it has to be the car


True.

So why were you not applying this logic last year?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
When did Ferrari introduce engine#2?


Last race, Canada, as planned.

just add: for Vettel only. Kimi had to change his engine a few races ago so he'll effectively have one less new spec than Vettel to play with


yep, unless he takes a penalty (which seems likely).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:56 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


By the same token, when Bottas beats Hamilton everyone seems to assume that it is Hamilton underperforming and not Bottas performing above expectation.

Point is that some of the gaps that people use as "proof" of car superiority exist within teams and then they are accepted as one driver out-performing another. But when it's between team people look at the tiniest margins and try to make out it has to be the car


True.

So why were you not applying this logic last year?

examples?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am 
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examples of what?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:16 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
examples of what?

are you being deliberately obtuse? Examples of your claim that I didn't apply the same logic last year. Or are you simply making that up, too?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:38 pm 
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You could say the same thing about Ferrari’s poles at Russia, Monaco and Mexico which were all taken by less than a tenth. Interestingly Bottas was the faster Mercedes driver in both Russia and Monaco.

Ferrari never had any race weekends like Mercedes did in Baku, Britain, Monza or Abu Dhabi where they were one second per lap faster than anyone else.


Last edited by KingVoid on Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:39 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.

still not backing up your claim. Let me guess - you made it up again?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:43 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Spain and China maybe.

Austria? No way. Mercedes was the best car that weekend. Vettel had the best lap of the top four and it was a minor miracle that he was able to get so close to pole.


And how do you know all this?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:46 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Spain and China maybe.

Austria? No way. Mercedes was the best car that weekend. Vettel had the best lap of the top four and it was a minor miracle that he was able to get so close to pole.


And how do you know all this?

How do you know that Ferrari have had the best car this season?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.

still not backing up your claim. Let me guess - you made it up again?


So you don't think Merc had a qualifying advantage last year? Make up your mind! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:47 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Spain and China maybe.

Austria? No way. Mercedes was the best car that weekend. Vettel had the best lap of the top four and it was a minor miracle that he was able to get so close to pole.


And how do you know all this?

How do you know that Ferrari have had the best car this season?


when grandpa Kimi is able to get on the front row so many times then you know you have a rocketship. :nod:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:53 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.

still not backing up your claim. Let me guess - you made it up again?


So you don't think Merc had a qualifying advantage last year? Make up your mind! :lol:

On the whole I think they did, yes. What has that got to do with your point about me not applying the same logic?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.

still not backing up your claim. Let me guess - you made it up again?


So you don't think Merc had a qualifying advantage last year? Make up your mind! :lol:

On the whole I think they did, yes. What has that got to do with your point about me not applying the same logic?


ok, and do you think Ferrari have a quailfying advantage this year?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:16 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Well i guess it's shown that you think Mercedes had a qualifying advantage last year. The small differences at tracks like Austria, China, Barcelona etc. could easily be put down to driver differences.

still not backing up your claim. Let me guess - you made it up again?


So you don't think Merc had a qualifying advantage last year? Make up your mind! :lol:

On the whole I think they did, yes. What has that got to do with your point about me not applying the same logic?


ok, and do you think Ferrari have a quailfying advantage this year?

happy to answer that when you've backed up your claim that I wasn't applying the same logic last year. I don't know why this is hard. You made the statement fairly confidently, so you must be able to substantiate it?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:44 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Spain and China maybe.

Austria? No way. Mercedes was the best car that weekend. Vettel had the best lap of the top four and it was a minor miracle that he was able to get so close to pole.


And how do you know all this?

How do you know that Ferrari have had the best car this season?


when grandpa Kimi is able to get on the front row so many times then you know you have a rocketship. :nod:

At least Vettel is beating his grandpa teammate. Hamilton hasn’t been the benchmark Mercedes driver in a lot of weekends.

Bottas was 0.163s slower than Vettel in Bahrain and 0.093s slower than Vettel in Canada. Hamilton’s average advantage over Bottas last season was bigger than those margins. There’s no reason to believe why Vettel can’t have a one-tenth pace advantage over Bottas on merit without having a faster car.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
when grandpa Kimi is able to get on the front row so many times then you know you have a rocketship. :nod:

At least Vettel is beating his grandpa teammate. Hamilton hasn’t been the benchmark Mercedes driver in a lot of weekends.
Bottas was 0.163s slower than Vettel in Bahrain and 0.093s slower than Vettel in Canada. Hamilton’s average advantage over Bottas last season was bigger than those margins. There’s no reason to believe why Vettel can’t have a one-tenth pace advantage over Bottas on merit without having a faster car.

:thumbup:

Exactly. All you need to believe that the cars are equal is to believe that Hamilton is under-performing. That's really it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:15 pm 
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I think both Hamilton and Vettel were "slow" over 1 lap at the start of the year. Vettel masked somewhat by Kimi unable to put a lap together on a few occasions but Kimi was as quicker or slightly quicker in the first few races. Vettel has definitely found the speed over 1 lap now and Kimi is no where.

Hamilton also seemed to have turned it around, 3 straight victories leading into Canada. Would Hamilton have beat Bottas in qualifying without the bird strike? Maybe.

Vettel has still out qualified both Mercedes in 5 of the last 6 races. It still seems the car to beat over 1 lap, although Canada was debatable for sure.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:43 pm 
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So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


I think it's all about tyres.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


I think it's all about tyres.

yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:26 pm 
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It's down to this specification of tire. Mercedes are definitely quicker with these than Ferrari. So yeah, I would expect them to have the edge both at Silverstone and Austria as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


Mercedes did bring plenty of updates, maybe we will get more information on how much advantage if any they brought this weekend.

The two races which have had these tyres Mercedes have smashed the opposition, looking good for Silverstone.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's down to this specification of tire. Mercedes are definitely quicker with these than Ferrari. So yeah, I would expect them to have the edge both at Silverstone and Austria as well.

It could just as easily be argued that the Merc suits the tracks that Pirelli decided these tyres are needed for as it's the tyres doing the job, Vettel said at their last outing they were the right choice for the track and hasn't complained about the tyre spec this weekend...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Mercedes haven't smashed anyone in France yet... Hamilton went from 0.7 ahead in qualifying in Australia to not being able to pull away from Kimi in the opening stint. Similarly, Ferrari have been 0.5 ahead in qualifying in a race this year and then on race day it be close and Mercedes were barely over a tenth ahead of Ferrari on 1 lap in Spain and then about 0.8 quicker with race pace.

Anything can happen tomorrow, Vettel did look good on the Friday long runs so who knows.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:04 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's down to this specification of tire. Mercedes are definitely quicker with these than Ferrari. So yeah, I would expect them to have the edge both at Silverstone and Austria as well.

It could just as easily be argued that the Merc suits the tracks that Pirelli decided these tyres are needed for as it's the tyres doing the job, Vettel said at their last outing they were the right choice for the track and hasn't complained about the tyre spec this weekend...

The thing that made Pirelli bring these tires is the new asphalt. It's not based on the characteristics of the circuit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's down to this specification of tire. Mercedes are definitely quicker with these than Ferrari. So yeah, I would expect them to have the edge both at Silverstone and Austria as well.

It could just as easily be argued that the Merc suits the tracks that Pirelli decided these tyres are needed for as it's the tyres doing the job, Vettel said at their last outing they were the right choice for the track and hasn't complained about the tyre spec this weekend...

The thing that made Pirelli bring these tires is the new asphalt. It's not based on the characteristics of the circuit.

Which could suit Merc better


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


I think it's all about tyres.

yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:52 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


I think it's all about tyres.

yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.

Very much handy for them if it gives them a buffer


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So, Mercedes definitely look quicker here but just creates more questions than it answers. Is it because the track is has similarities to Spain, where Mercedes were also quicker? Is it because of the tyres, which are also the same construction as at Spain? Or is it because of the PU upgrade? Or a combination of all three?

Whoever has pace advantage, it certainly seems to fluctuate from weekend to weekend


I think it's all about tyres.

yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.

Very much handy for them if it gives them a buffer


To hold onto the lead for the 10 races after that? :lol: I hope you're joking.

We already saw how quickly Vettel got back the lead after Spain - it only took him 2 races.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Mercedes are still plenty fast even on the normal tyres, more than fast enough to win races regularly.

Of course, with the thin rubber tyres, they aren’t merely fast, but 2016 levels of dominant. Those are three easy wins in a championship that will likely be very close.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:49 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think it's all about tyres.

yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.

Very much handy for them if it gives them a buffer


To hold onto the lead for the 10 races after that? :lol: I hope you're joking.

We already saw how quickly Vettel got back the lead after Spain - it only took him 2 races.

we're a 3rd of the way through the season and it's neck and neck at the front. Any buffer could tip the balance


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:16 am 
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So the Mercedes engine is even more powerful than the one they would have brought to Canada, they managed to find more power in 2 weeks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:30 pm 
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That was a mighty dominant Merc.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I'm inclined to agree. If true it suggests that Mercedes could be looking to get maximum points here and at Silverstone. Handy for them


Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.

Very much handy for them if it gives them a buffer


To hold onto the lead for the 10 races after that? :lol: I hope you're joking.

We already saw how quickly Vettel got back the lead after Spain - it only took him 2 races.

we're a 3rd of the way through the season and it's neck and neck at the front. Any buffer could tip the balance

The only reason it's so close is because of races like China and Baku, where Vettel was set for easy wins before things turned against him. Ferrari have not maximized their opportunities.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Not so handy for them if normal service is resumed after these races.

Very much handy for them if it gives them a buffer

The only reason it's so close is because of races like China and Baku, where Vettel was set for easy wins before things turned against him. Ferrari have not maximized their opportunities.

On the flip side of the argument, you can easily argue that Mercedes should have won in both Australia and Bahrain but threw away both.


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