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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Between F1 and MotoGP for whom are these statements most true?:

1. I consistently produce an entertaining race weekend - MotoGP
2. I provide an adequate avenue for the best riders/drivers in the world to eventually make it into this competition - MotoGP (close call as I think both sport struggle with this)
3. I have a competition in which the riders/drivers are just as important as the machinery - MotoGP
4. I engage the fans through many different media outlets and am easily accessible to anyone who is interested - F1 (close call but Dorna is a little too greedy for me)
5. My races are compelling and the riders/drivers have the ability to aggressively battle and overtake - MotoGP (by a mile)
6. Race wins and championships are often decided in a dramatic and/or interesting way - MotoGP
7. The riders/drivers and other people in the sport are interesting and engage the fans and media in ways that give people something to talk about - F1 (close call but F1 is doing really well with this nowadays)
8. The level of competition is as high or higher today than it has ever been in our sport - Both

MotoGP is basically a different sport, it's like comparing apples with pears.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Between F1 and MotoGP for whom are these statements most true?:

1. I consistently produce an entertaining race weekend - MotoGP
2. I provide an adequate avenue for the best riders/drivers in the world to eventually make it into this competition - MotoGP (close call as I think both sport struggle with this)
3. I have a competition in which the riders/drivers are just as important as the machinery - MotoGP
4. I engage the fans through many different media outlets and am easily accessible to anyone who is interested - F1 (close call but Dorna is a little too greedy for me)
5. My races are compelling and the riders/drivers have the ability to aggressively battle and overtake - MotoGP (by a mile)
6. Race wins and championships are often decided in a dramatic and/or interesting way - MotoGP
7. The riders/drivers and other people in the sport are interesting and engage the fans and media in ways that give people something to talk about - F1 (close call but F1 is doing really well with this nowadays)
8. The level of competition is as high or higher today than it has ever been in our sport - Both

It's all subjective, though. 'Entertaining' is in the eye of the one being entertained: I've watched MotoGP races, and I just don't get into it as much as I do with cars. By the objective standard of close racing and overtaking, an oval race is better. By the standard of the driver making the difference, again a spec series racing on ovals is better. Would you agree that a spec oval series is superior racing and entertainment to MotoGP?

I'm not trying to duck into the MotoGP thread and put the series down, but I'm frequently annoyed by the sense of superiority that MotoGP fans seem to feel about their series. If they like it better than F1, great - enjoy it! But I don't see why they need to constantly come up with reasons why MotoGP is objectively better when it's not an objective question.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Between F1 and MotoGP for whom are these statements most true?:

1. I consistently produce an entertaining race weekend - MotoGP
2. I provide an adequate avenue for the best riders/drivers in the world to eventually make it into this competition - MotoGP (close call as I think both sport struggle with this)
3. I have a competition in which the riders/drivers are just as important as the machinery - MotoGP
4. I engage the fans through many different media outlets and am easily accessible to anyone who is interested - F1 (close call but Dorna is a little too greedy for me)
5. My races are compelling and the riders/drivers have the ability to aggressively battle and overtake - MotoGP (by a mile)
6. Race wins and championships are often decided in a dramatic and/or interesting way - MotoGP
7. The riders/drivers and other people in the sport are interesting and engage the fans and media in ways that give people something to talk about - F1 (close call but F1 is doing really well with this nowadays)
8. The level of competition is as high or higher today than it has ever been in our sport - Both

It's all subjective, though. 'Entertaining' is in the eye of the one being entertained: I've watched MotoGP races, and I just don't get into it as much as I do with cars. By the objective standard of close racing and overtaking, an oval race is better. By the standard of the driver making the difference, again a spec series racing on ovals is better. Would you agree that a spec oval series is superior racing and entertainment to MotoGP?

I'm not trying to duck into the MotoGP thread and put the series down, but I'm frequently annoyed by the sense of superiority that MotoGP fans seem to feel about their series. If they like it better than F1, great - enjoy it! But I don't see why they need to constantly come up with reasons why MotoGP is objectively better when it's not an objective question.

Of course it's not objective. This type of conversation can never be anything other than subjective. I'm a big fan of both F1 and MotoGP and have been for ages. I'm not trying to put down F1 or prop up MotoGP at its expense. I'm just pointing out that, in my opinion, MotoGP has a much more entertaining overall package.

To answer your question about a spec series like Indy; no I don't agree with that. Spec cars in and of themselves are less exciting than individual prototypes IMO. Also Indycar doesn't have the same level of performer as F1 and MotoGP; two series that attract the very best (for the most part). Ovals, for me, are also inherently less interesting.

Ironically, the thing that works most in MotoGP's favor are the laws of physics themselves. Because motorcycles are much more narrow and rely much less on aerodynamics for performance, they are basically ideal for close racing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Not all motogp races are classics. The last 3 have been boring and the season overal has not seen great action apart from the Marquez show at Argentina.

An F1 car is incredible but nowadays I generally only watch the opening laps of F1 then check the results. Even the most ardent F1 fan would struggle to get a newcomer excited watching most races

In terms of personalities there's no contest. The motogp riders have sponsors as well so there's no justification for how boring f1 press conferences and interviews with drivers are.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:41 pm 
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As for Assen. Was expecting to see Yamaha back at the front but the heatwave has struck at the wrong time for them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Think that action ends the motogp vs f1 debate


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Exactly. I should also try to avoid watching MOTO GP immediately before an F1 race. I fear that F1 will look dreadful after that!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:03 pm 
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a classic. shame marques got away for the last couple of laps as i thought it was going down to the last corner. but otherwise a faultless race really.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Oh, dear. MotoGP makes F1 look so, so bad. I'm ranting on a text-based forum while supercars are driving at 300km/h. Tells you all you need to know about F1.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:47 pm 
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The MotoGP race was like a Moto3 race for most of it. Awesome race from start to finish! This was a clear example of what we've been talking about. All of the leaders in a pack chopping and battling for an entire race! You'll never see that in F1 in a million years. Great battle and Marquez showed yet again that he has just that little something beyond what the others possess. He is a supernatural talent that kid.

In Moto2, Bagnaia is the real deal isn't he? Kind of came out of nowhere as he wasn't on anyone's radar for the championship pre-season but he is a complete package and I look forward to seeing him in the premiere class next year. Quatararo has been special these last couple of rounds hasn't he? I would look out for him to be a major title threat for the 2019 season and the path to MotoGP is wide open for him again. I feel good for that youngster because he had completely lost his confidence at one point but he's got his mojo back now.

In Moto3 we finally saw Martin do what he's capable of doing. This was another fierce battle among the leading pack but Jorge was able to separate himself at the end and with Marco crashing out, the championship lead is now his. I'd like to see him bring it home and move into Moto2 on the proper note.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:50 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Exactly. I should also try to avoid watching MOTO GP immediately before an F1 race. I fear that F1 will look dreadful after that!
I only watched the MotoGP race in the evening, well after F1. But I think it is hard to find a better illustration of my view that banning pit-to-car radio would help F1 enormously. The riders can read a message, but that's it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Exactly. I should also try to avoid watching MOTO GP immediately before an F1 race. I fear that F1 will look dreadful after that!
I only watched the MotoGP race in the evening, well after F1. But I think it is hard to find a better illustration of my view that banning pit-to-car radio would help F1 enormously. The riders can read a message, but that's it.


They did that in F1 and it didn't aid the spectacle at all. Is it banned in Moto Gp or do they just not want to carry the extra weight?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:10 pm 
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If you want to make F1 like MotoGP then the first thing you do is make it similar to a spec series like F2 then you have complaints that the cars are little quicker than Indycars and it's no longer the pinnacle of the sport, drivers would no longer have to be super fit because the cars would be so much slower around the corners, I mean for instance bikes are incredibly slow around corners when compared to F1.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/136368/lorenzo-approach-EUR~doesnt-work-at-ducati

Not even a month ago. Funny, that a piece of plastic was all that was needed for Lorenzo's "Approach" to work.

Lorenzo was right to leave, although personally I would have loved it if he would have stayed. Dovi better be careful. He might just get his posterior handed to him by the guy that just a few weeks ago, he was looking down on. The Spartan has risen! :) :) :)


So did they revert to the old tank this weekend or what?


... Sorry ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/136368/lorenzo-approach-EUR~doesnt-work-at-ducati

Not even a month ago. Funny, that a piece of plastic was all that was needed for Lorenzo's "Approach" to work.

Lorenzo was right to leave, although personally I would have loved it if he would have stayed. Dovi better be careful. He might just get his posterior handed to him by the guy that just a few weeks ago, he was looking down on. The Spartan has risen! :) :) :)


So did they revert to the old tank this weekend or what?


... Sorry ;)

No but you make a good point. He did seem to fade just like before. I'm wondering exactly what the explanation for that is.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
If you want to make F1 like MotoGP then the first thing you do is make it similar to a spec series like F2 then you have complaints that the cars are little quicker than Indycars and it's no longer the pinnacle of the sport, drivers would no longer have to be super fit because the cars would be so much slower around the corners, I mean for instance bikes are incredibly slow around corners when compared to F1.

Or, here's an idea, you just don't make F1 like MotoGP, and you accept that motorcycle racing and open-wheeled car racing are fundamentally different? Lap-by-lap action and excitement is what motorcycle racing is about. Strategy and slow buildups to moves with more individual impact is what F1 is about. They're different.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:27 pm 
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I raced motocycles when I was young, but I just cannot watch them now. It makes me feel physically ill.
My stomach tightens and floods with acid (Wimp)

Gp2, I do not have sky or I would.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/136368/lorenzo-approach-EUR~doesnt-work-at-ducati

Not even a month ago. Funny, that a piece of plastic was all that was needed for Lorenzo's "Approach" to work.

Lorenzo was right to leave, although personally I would have loved it if he would have stayed. Dovi better be careful. He might just get his posterior handed to him by the guy that just a few weeks ago, he was looking down on. The Spartan has risen! :) :) :)


So did they revert to the old tank this weekend or what?


... Sorry ;)

No but you make a good point. He did seem to fade just like before. I'm wondering exactly what the explanation for that is.

I think I might have mentioned it, tracks that suited both Ducati and Lorenzo, the tyres had high deg for the tracks which suited Lorenzo's smooth riding.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If you want to make F1 like MotoGP then the first thing you do is make it similar to a spec series like F2 then you have complaints that the cars are little quicker than Indycars and it's no longer the pinnacle of the sport, drivers would no longer have to be super fit because the cars would be so much slower around the corners, I mean for instance bikes are incredibly slow around corners when compared to F1.

Or, here's an idea, you just don't make F1 like MotoGP, and you accept that motorcycle racing and open-wheeled car racing are fundamentally different? Lap-by-lap action and excitement is what motorcycle racing is about. Strategy and slow buildups to moves with more individual impact is what F1 is about. They're different.

Well that's what I've been trying to say but in F1 you can't please everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:10 am 
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MotoGP is great.

True sprint racing, very close and competitive and loud, exciting bikes to watch.

I have to admit I've been following it less closely since Casey Stoner retired. I watched him at Phillip Island in that final year and he was just on another level compared to everyone else. His bike was revving higher and he was much more aggressive than anyone else. The way he could powerslide at 200km/h+ consistently every lap was amazing to watch.

I still take an interest, but not as much as before.

F2 is something I've never really watched, but I think I'll try to watch some races given the comments in here.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:35 am 
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Absolutely. I've become a big MotoGP fan the last couple of years because the first handful of races I watched were absolutely enthralling. One of the first ones I watched had a lead change six or seven times on the last lap, and I couldn't stop myself from wondering why F1 isn't like that.

Last weekend's MotoGP race was bloody immense as well. Any motor sport fan who tuned into that as their first experience of the series would've been knocked out by the amount of entertainment in a single race. That was an important race too, I think, because the last couple had admittedly been a little less exciting (though still had far more action than any recent F1 race I can remember).

The first time I sat down to watch a full F2 race was last weekend for the first one. That was brilliant too. I reckon I'll be tuning in more often if that's what's to expect.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Stopped watching Moto GP when it went to BT Sports a few years back :(

Will always watch F2 and F3/GP3 as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:41 pm 
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It amazes me that Marc Marquez only makes about $11.5 million a year while F1 drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel earn upwards of 3 times that amount. If I were Marc, I'd demand a LOT more money! I actually think that you could put Marc on the Ducati, the Yamaha and probably even the Suzuki at this point and he would still win the title. He provides a HUGE advantage to any team that signs him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:43 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
MotoGP is great.

True sprint racing, very close and competitive and loud, exciting bikes to watch.

I have to admit I've been following it less closely since Casey Stoner retired. I watched him at Phillip Island in that final year and he was just on another level compared to everyone else. His bike was revving higher and he was much more aggressive than anyone else. The way he could powerslide at 200km/h+ consistently every lap was amazing to watch.

I still take an interest, but not as much as before.

F2 is something I've never really watched, but I think I'll try to watch some races given the comments in here.

You should tune back in. Marc Marquez is basically Casey Stoner on steroids.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:05 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It amazes me that Marc Marquez only makes about $11.5 million a year while F1 drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel earn upwards of 3 times that amount. If I were Marc, I'd demand a LOT more money! I actually think that you could put Marc on the Ducati, the Yamaha and probably even the Suzuki at this point and he would still win the title. He provides a HUGE advantage to any team that signs him.

Unfortunately MotoGP doesn't generate the same amount of money as F1, unless it starts to do this the riders will always be paid less.
The same goes for the elevated status of footballers (soccer for the yanks out there) vs sports like cricket or rugby, you'd earn more being worse at another sport because of the status it has...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:13 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It amazes me that Marc Marquez only makes about $11.5 million a year while F1 drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel earn upwards of 3 times that amount. If I were Marc, I'd demand a LOT more money! I actually think that you could put Marc on the Ducati, the Yamaha and probably even the Suzuki at this point and he would still win the title. He provides a HUGE advantage to any team that signs him.


And who will pay him? The best funded team has about a fifth of the budget of top F1 team, and a well funded customer team will operate on about 15 mill all in.

Plus he can't attract sponsors in the same way Hamilton can for example. According to Forbes the Hilfiger sponsorship is worth 50 mill to Mercedes alone. And although Hamilton is a one off in regard to sponsorship, I expect Max will take that mantle from Lewis over the next few years.

The only one close to F1 driver earnings would be Rossi; and most of his income derives from the massive VR46 organisation.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:07 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You should tune back in. Marc Marquez is basically Casey Stoner on steroids.


I've watched him and I agree he is an exciting rider to watch, but I'm not sure I can reconcile with him being on a level that much above Stoner.

I think if Stoner stayed at Repsol Honda he'd probably have a few more titles behind him.

I will try to watch some more MotoGP regardless.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:31 am 
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Marquez is a beast. Much as I like to see the old guard stand up to the young pretender and keep him in check, the guy is consistently incredible. If he wins the title this year he'll have five to his name, and he'll only be 25-years-old. If he did that I'd love to see him switch to F1 and try make a name for himself there, but that's just a dream..

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:47 am 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
Stopped watching Moto GP when it went to BT Sports a few years back :(

Will always watch F2 and F3/GP3 as well.

I actually bought BTSports primarily so I could watch MotoGP. 8O

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Last edited by pokerman on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:49 am 
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oz_karter wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You should tune back in. Marc Marquez is basically Casey Stoner on steroids.


I've watched him and I agree he is an exciting rider to watch, but I'm not sure I can reconcile with him being on a level that much above Stoner.

I think if Stoner stayed at Repsol Honda he'd probably have a few more titles behind him.

I will try to watch some more MotoGP regardless.

You can't say he would have won more titles when he had lost his desire.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:52 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Marquez is a beast. Much as I like to see the old guard stand up to the young pretender and keep him in check, the guy is consistently incredible. If he wins the title this year he'll have five to his name, and he'll only be 25-years-old. If he did that I'd love to see him switch to F1 and try make a name for himself there, but that's just a dream..

He would be crazy to do that, he is a genius on a bike and can make the difference, in F1 you can't do that even if you are the best, also what's the odds Marquez would be any good in F1 giving his lack of car training?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Battle Far wrote:

However, don't forget that MotoGp bikes go round corners slower than a Formula Ford! Corner apex speeds in an F1 car are often double or more than of a MotoGp bike meaning riders have far more time to react and adjust to what's going on around them.



You make it sound like everything happens in slow motion

A motogp bike out accelerates an f1 car and they reach higher top speeds. Races are only 45mins long and still you have riders complaining of tiredness towards the end down to the physicality of holding onto 200hp+ motorbike and trying to get it to change direction and slow down/speed up.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
Battle Far wrote:

However, don't forget that MotoGp bikes go round corners slower than a Formula Ford! Corner apex speeds in an F1 car are often double or more than of a MotoGp bike meaning riders have far more time to react and adjust to what's going on around them.



You make it sound like everything happens in slow motion

A motogp bike out accelerates an f1 car and they reach higher top speeds. Races are only 45mins long and still you have riders complaining of tiredness towards the end down to the physicality of holding onto 200hp+ motorbike and trying to get it to change direction and slow down/speed up.


Yea, if they are that slow they can't be that exciting :lol:



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:11 am 
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Battle Far wrote:
However, don't forget that MotoGp bikes go round corners slower than a Formula Ford! Corner apex speeds in an F1 car are often double or more than of a MotoGp bike meaning riders have far more time to react and adjust to what's going on around them.


Cornering speed is dictated by the small contact patch. On a bike that small size is obvious compared to any car. But for those racing at the highest level, they must be able to slide both ends of the bike, and the slightest error puts them on the ground. The level of feedback is superb, but any mistake can be very painful. On acceleration the bikes are right out of Star Trek, they just warp from corner to corner.

The more one learns about racing motorcycles the more one respects how difficulty it is.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:51 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You should tune back in. Marc Marquez is basically Casey Stoner on steroids.


I've watched him and I agree he is an exciting rider to watch, but I'm not sure I can reconcile with him being on a level that much above Stoner.

I think if Stoner stayed at Repsol Honda he'd probably have a few more titles behind him.

I will try to watch some more MotoGP regardless.

I was mostly referring to the fact that their riding styles are so similar. Both have that way of almost hanging off the bike; which allows them to keep the bike more upright through the corners and be earlier on the power on exit. Marc is definitely the more aggressive of the two and also a bit quicker IMO. Using Pedrosa as a benchmark, you'd have to point out that Stoner and Pedrosa were closer together in performance than Marquez and Pedrosa. I don't think Stoner was going to beat Marc on the same bike and, as someone else mentioned, for Casey to retire at 27 means he really didn't want to do it anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 am 
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Moved moto GP post

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Pointless using Pedrosa as a bench mark as his results vary insanely depending on how he's getting on with the bike. Similar to Lorenzo.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Official: Dani Pedrosa calls time on his MotoGP career.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/90093 ... nt-updated

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:12 am 
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Martin is looking like running away with the Moto3 title from here. IF not for the crashes earlier in the season, this would already be a massive lead. He's cleary beyond his competition at that level.

Impressive performance by Binder in Moto2. I was thinking that Mir would get his first win but Binder beat him to it. Mir certainly seems to have gotten comfortable in Moto2 though as he seems to have the upper hand over Alex Marquez now. That first win is coming. On a side note, Oliveira really needs to do something about his qualifying. He is just awful on Saturdays and he's going to struggle to win the title unless he can improve there. It's really a red flag in his career overall actually and he needs to get that sorted before moving to MotoGP next year. Also that was really bad luck for Bagnaia today and that really closed things up int he points.

In MotoGP, I was impressed with Marquez yet again. Things got exciting a couple of races ago with Jorge winning back to back but I think my prediction for the season stands. Marquez is just going to dominate and win 10+ races this year. It was disappointing to see Lorenzo fade yet again. He doesn't seem to have fully gotten over that. I'm not sure what's wrong with Vinales but he needs to improve his early-race performance. It just takes him too long to find his rhythm. He is frequently the fastest man on track in the dying laps but it just takes too long.

By the way, check out this fun video on the different braking techniques of the riders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95xRoAh8f8A


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Martin is looking like running away with the Moto3 title from here. IF not for the crashes earlier in the season, this would already be a massive lead. He's cleary beyond his competition at that level.

Impressive performance by Binder in Moto2. I was thinking that Mir would get his first win but Binder beat him to it. Mir certainly seems to have gotten comfortable in Moto2 though as he seems to have the upper hand over Alex Marquez now. That first win is coming. On a side note, Oliveira really needs to do something about his qualifying. He is just awful on Saturdays and he's going to struggle to win the title unless he can improve there. It's really a red flag in his career overall actually and he needs to get that sorted before moving to MotoGP next year. Also that was really bad luck for Bagnaia today and that really closed things up int he points.

In MotoGP, I was impressed with Marquez yet again. Things got exciting a couple of races ago with Jorge winning back to back but I think my prediction for the season stands. Marquez is just going to dominate and win 10+ races this year. It was disappointing to see Lorenzo fade yet again. He doesn't seem to have fully gotten over that. I'm not sure what's wrong with Vinales but he needs to improve his early-race performance. It just takes him too long to find his rhythm. He is frequently the fastest man on track in the dying laps but it just takes too long.

By the way, check out this fun video on the different braking techniques of the riders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95xRoAh8f8A

Regarding Lorenzo it's being said that the fading in races could be down to lack of fitness.

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