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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:37 pm 
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I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
Very dull motogp race with 2 of the 3 potential race winners crashing out.

Moto2, bagnaia looks fantastic.

Last sector esp last corner before long straight just ruins the racing.

Next up Mugello 8)

I doubt that either Zarco or Dovi were going to beat Marquez.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:16 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.

There's not much wrong with the Ducati, there were 4 Ducati's running in the top 6.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:36 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.

While I agree that Dovi is not really top-shelf material, I disagree about tailoring the bike to Jorge. That's a much larger endeavor than you might realize and I don't see how it's worth it. Jorge is 31 already and by the time they can get the bike to match the characteristics of the Yamahas, Jorge will be past his prime (if he isn't already). Honestly, I'm disappointed in Jorge's stint at Ducati thus far. He has shown himself to be incapable of adapting to the bike and has not been able to match Dovi's performance. Ultimately, this was acceptable last year. I expected Jorge to have a difficult time adjusting in year one but, considering the progress he made towards the end of the season, I really thought he'd be on it this year. Instead, he's right back where he started; struggling with the bike.

I used to think Jorge was Sebastian Vettel but now I can see that he's more like Kimi Raikkonen; very sensitive and with a narrow window of comfort through which he can extract top-level performance. The way he has chosen the softer tire over and over again only to see himself fade and lose positions every race is just baffling. It's not working and he keeps doing it. I feel like he just wants to show people that he can be at the front even though he knows his strategy will never work in the long run. If he were on the harder tire, he simply wouldn't be at the front at all so he thinks it looks better to fade because of the tires than it does to never be in the mix in the first place.

Honestly, Ducati have been losing out with their riders for the last few years. I think a major shake-up is needed. Pettrucci should get a shot at this point. If not him, look to Miller perhaps. Hell, I really thought Zarco would have been a good target for Ducati. They need a top rider or they won't ever be able to beat Marc. Last year, they had the better bike but lost out because of their riders. This year, the Honda is stronger or at least as strong as the Ducati and Dovi hasn't been able to keep things interesting. I think Ducati should make a move for Vinales. His talents are wasted at Yamaha and I think that might be the ideal destination for him. He's also the best rider that will be available after this season. Hope it happens.

As for Jorge, I think Suzuki is the logical move for him. The bike's characteristics suit him a lot better than the Ducati and I doubt either Honda or Yamaha are an option. Jorge has lost a lot of his reputation though with this Ducati stint. It's even worse than Rossi's stint. Rossi may not have won with Ducati but he was at least beating his teammates. Jorge has been completely inept and, unless he can turn things around this year, I think his time at Ducati will be very short-lived.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Lorenzo's travails on the Ducati have been a mystery. This year's bike in his hands have been a step backward, he had the bad luck of the brake failure in the opening round, the disaster in mixed conditions in Argentina that always confound him, the fade in Austin. The past two rounds has seen him ride better though, and he potentially could have had a podium in Jerez, although I think 4th was likely. Yesterday I think he did as well as he could, the soft tire gave up the ghost relatively quickly and 6th was his position. I do think at this juncture Ducati have failed to give him what he needs, and it's curious the direction they took on the bike this year, as it doesn't see to be any better and in some ways worse. I also don't think him trying the medium tire is worth his time. If he can't be quick at all on it, I think he'd rather lead the race for a while on the soft as opposed to riding around in 7-10th on the medium. At least he can challenge on the soft, if not for the whole race, a little while. If it were me I'd do the same, maybe he gets lucky and people fall, etc. He can't make the harder tires work this year, there's no point in him trying. Probably his fault more than Ducati, it is what it is. It will be very interesting to see where he goes next year.

Dovi, on the other hand, I think you guys are being harsh on. He's riding very well, probably the best he's ever been riding. His crash yesterday was very unfortunate, as he looked like he had the pace to win, and he had the pace to challenge Marquez at Jerez before being taken out, which was not his fault at all. Winning the opening round was fantastic, Argentina was a cluster and Austin was a track he doesn't like but performed to the maximum that day. The crash yesterday was difficult to swallow, as he looked really on it. He doesn't make those kind of mistakes normally, it was weird. Robbed us all of a very enticing matchup v. Marquez because it would have been them two, and maybe even Zarco. Another crash that robbed us of a battle, although I suspect he would not have been able to keep their pace, but certainly would have had everyone else covered.

Of course, as many have been saying, Marquez is riding brilliantly (save the boneheadedness of Argentina) and Honda have upped their game from last year to give him what he wants from the bike. His excellence is something to behold, and although I wish the other riders were challenging him, it's not at all boring to watch what he does---we are simply witnessing greatness, potentially the best ever to ride a motorcycle if this continues.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.

There's not much wrong with the Ducati, there were 4 Ducati's running in the top 6.


You may be right... But still...

If any rider that is not Marc Marquez wants to win a WC in the next ten years or so, he/she needs to have a bike one or two steps ahead of whatever Honda produces. So, while it may be true there's nothing wrong with the Ducati, and while it may even be a bit better than the Honda, it seems to me that this is not enough.

IIRC, the last person not MM93 to win a MotoGP championship was Lorenzo, in a very good Yamaha.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:08 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Zazu wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...

He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Zazu wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...

He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?


He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:28 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Zazu wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...

He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?


He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts

More than a bit ironic to see a staunch Hamilton fan coming out with this one. I thought points scored over time together was a totally made up metric designed to favor Button?

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts

More than a bit ironic to see a staunch Hamilton fan coming out with this one. I thought points scored over time together was a totally made up metric designed to favor Button?

Ouch!

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts

More than a bit ironic to see a staunch Hamilton fan coming out with this one. I thought points scored over time together was a totally made up metric designed to favor Button?

I put everything out there as it was obvious that only stats that favoured Lorenzo were being used, also unlike F1, MotoGP are true run races, the bikes are more reliable, they don't have pit stops and they can overtake so the luck factor is nowhere near as high as F1 so such stats are valid.

But more so what I said was that from 2014-2016 Rossi was getting the better of Lorenzo, he beat him in 2014 and 2016.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:06 am 
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Costly mistake from Dovi but Marquez continues to stun. Did you see that save that was captured in slo-mo where he caught his elbow, the front started to go and he appears to push the bike upright before carrying on his way. Unreal.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:26 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Costly mistake from Dovi but Marquez continues to stun. Did you see that save that was captured in slo-mo where he caught his elbow, the front started to go and he appears to push the bike upright before carrying on his way. Unreal.

That's par for course for him, did you not see the save in the final race of last season, his bike was down and he was still trying to save it as he went off the track and into the gravel, I believe he went on to finish 3rd?

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:28 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Costly mistake from Dovi but Marquez continues to stun. Did you see that save that was captured in slo-mo where he caught his elbow, the front started to go and he appears to push the bike upright before carrying on his way. Unreal.


Think this save topped that. :)



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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:48 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Costly mistake from Dovi but Marquez continues to stun. Did you see that save that was captured in slo-mo where he caught his elbow, the front started to go and he appears to push the bike upright before carrying on his way. Unreal.


Think this save topped that. :)


Kornfell said that doing motorcross helped him with the jump, he broke his seat on the landing.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:50 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Costly mistake from Dovi but Marquez continues to stun. Did you see that save that was captured in slo-mo where he caught his elbow, the front started to go and he appears to push the bike upright before carrying on his way. Unreal.


Think this save topped that. :)


If we had a Driver of the Day equivalent in MotoGP, I'd award it to Kornfeil just for this moment alone.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...

He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?


He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:05 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

He was better than Rossi at Yamaha. He won the last 2 WC not won by MM and Honda...

He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?


He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.

I guess it should have been WRS for world rider standings, it just meant he finished ahead in the world rider championship between 2014-2016.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He wasn't better than Rossi at Yamaha, 2014 he was better, 2015 it was neck and neck, 2016 Rossi beat him, maybe one reason why he left?


He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.

I guess it should have been WRS for world rider standings, it just meant he finished ahead in the world rider championship between 2014-2016.

In terms of championships, Rossi won in 2008 and 2009 with Jorge as a teammate. Lorenzo won in 2010 (albeit with Rossi missing a chunk of the season due to injury) and 2015. In 2009 and 2015 they were in a direct battle for the championship against each other. Overall they were fairly evenly matched over the duration of their partnership with Rossi clearly being better early on and Lorenzo generally being better after Rossi came back to the team.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.

I guess it should have been WRS for world rider standings, it just meant he finished ahead in the world rider championship between 2014-2016.

In terms of championships, Rossi won in 2008 and 2009 with Jorge as a teammate. Lorenzo won in 2010 (albeit with Rossi missing a chunk of the season due to injury) and 2015. In 2009 and 2015 they were in a direct battle for the championship against each other. Overall they were fairly evenly matched over the duration of their partnership with Rossi clearly being better early on and Lorenzo generally being better after Rossi came back to the team.


Correct I'd say... IMO, and this is the point I tried to make at the start, Rossi made his outstanding CV in a field that was talent-thin compared to the era immediately prior of Rainey, Doohan, Lawson, Schwantz, etc., and the current one with Lorenzo, Marquez, (Stoner), Pedrosa... and his assessment should reflect this. He is having difficulty coming to terms with this and is resorting to that in which he actually IS the GOAT, and that is dirty politics and bully antics. Sadly.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:15 am 
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The topic of the "depth of talent" in the field is always an interesting one


2001
Rossi
Biaggi
Capirossi
Barros
Nakano


2002
Rossi
Biaggi
Ukawa
Barros
Checa

2003
Rossi
Gibernau
Biaggi
Capirossi
Hayden

2004
Rossi
Gibernau
Biaggi
Barros
Edwards

2005
Rossi
Melandri
Hayden
Edwards
Biaggi

2006
Hayden
Rossi

Capirossi
Melandri
Pedrosa

2007
Stoner
Pedrosa
Rossi
Hopkins
Melandri

2008
Rossi
Stoner

Pedrosa
Lorenzo
Dovizioso

2009
Rossi
Lorenzo

Pedrosa
Stoner
Edwards

2010
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Rossi
Stoner
Dovizioso

2011
Stoner
Lorenzo
Dovizioso
Pedrosa
Spies

2012
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Stoner
Dovizioso
Bautista

2013
Marquez
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Rossi
Crutchlow

2014
Marquez
Rossi
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Dovizioso

2015
Lorenzo
Rossi
Marquez
Pedrosa
Iannone

2016
Marquez
Rossi
Lorenzo
Vinales
Dovizioso

2017
Marquez
Dovizioso
Vinales
Pedrosa
Rossi


past/future champs in Bold.

So Rossi's early years definitely meant he wasn't racing past champs

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:32 am 
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Posts: 26199
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
He was clearly better.

While together:
Lorenzo 1 WC vs Rossi 0 WC
Lorenzo 13 wins vs Rossi 8 wins

And in 2016 Rossi was already in Full Political Mode and Yamaha didn't want to fight all those crazy fans they knew very well he has.

The result is there for all to see. Yamaha is doing better and better every year since... (-;

I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.

I guess it should have been WRS for world rider standings, it just meant he finished ahead in the world rider championship between 2014-2016.

In terms of championships, Rossi won in 2008 and 2009 with Jorge as a teammate. Lorenzo won in 2010 (albeit with Rossi missing a chunk of the season due to injury) and 2015. In 2009 and 2015 they were in a direct battle for the championship against each other. Overall they were fairly evenly matched over the duration of their partnership with Rossi clearly being better early on and Lorenzo generally being better after Rossi came back to the team.

That's not really borne out with Rossi beating Lorenzo in 2 of the last 3 years they were teammates.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:45 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually forgot they had 4 seasons together, 2013 Lorenzo hammered the returning Rossi.

However Rossi beat Lorenzo in 2014, then we had the controversial 2015 season when Lorenzo won the title by 5 points from Rossi, in 2016 Rossi again beat Lorenzo, this clearly a pattern of Rossi starting to beat Lorenzo over a season.

So from 2014-2016 you miss out certain facts:

Rossi 2 WRC - Lorenzo 1 WRC
Rossi 867pts - Lorenzo 823pts
Rossi 38 podiums - Lorenzo 33 podiums

However I wouldn't disagree with the political nature of Rossi this being one reason why Zarco is going to KTM as apparently Rossi blocked Yamaha from helping Zarco who he saw as a threat, then you have to wonder about the situation with Vinales who looked like a title favourite last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike and changes were made.


I may be reading this the wrong way or missing something... But Rossi did not win a single WC in 2014-2016. His last title was in 2009!
Lorenzo won in 2010 with Rossi still in Yamaha. Rossi then left.

I guess it should have been WRS for world rider standings, it just meant he finished ahead in the world rider championship between 2014-2016.

In terms of championships, Rossi won in 2008 and 2009 with Jorge as a teammate. Lorenzo won in 2010 (albeit with Rossi missing a chunk of the season due to injury) and 2015. In 2009 and 2015 they were in a direct battle for the championship against each other. Overall they were fairly evenly matched over the duration of their partnership with Rossi clearly being better early on and Lorenzo generally being better after Rossi came back to the team.


Correct I'd say... IMO, and this is the point I tried to make at the start, Rossi made his outstanding CV in a field that was talent-thin compared to the era immediately prior of Rainey, Doohan, Lawson, Schwantz, etc., and the current one with Lorenzo, Marquez, (Stoner), Pedrosa... and his assessment should reflect this. He is having difficulty coming to terms with this and is resorting to that in which he actually IS the GOAT, and that is dirty politics and bully antics. Sadly.

Yep he's used these tactics against all his opponents that he saw as being competition for him, I ignored it early on in his career because the opposition was clearly inferior, but the way he behaved against Stoner and his own teammate Lorenzo when a wall was put in the garage so the inexperienced Lorenzo would receive no help from his side of the garage turned me against him.

Then lately we see the hate campaign he and his supporters have against Marquez because he can't beat him on the track so heap the pressure on Marquez off the track hoping that he might crack, then we hear that he has so much power within Yamaha that he was able to block any assistance to Zarco because he's another rider he sees as a threat.

The veneer of a happy smiling chappie hides the dirty politics that he plays out, Marquez may be hated by some because of his no holds barred racing but he doesn't play politics behind the scene and he's not disrespectful off the track to his opponents.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:17 pm 
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It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

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2013: 5th Place
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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

Let's not get carried away. Rossi can't be blamed for the behavior of other adults.

Ultimately, Rossi did come into MotoGP at a time when there weren't other elite-level riders in the sport. For the first several years of his career, his strongest competition were the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau. He was easily the class of the field at that time and he dominated the sport like no one since Agostini. Switching from Honda to Yamaha and continuing to win titles was immensely impressive. It was clear that he gave any team that had him an edge.

Things changed around 2006-2007 as guys like Stoner and Pedrosa came into the sport. Then in 2008, Lorenzo joined his team and there was a truly talented field of riders with elite skill to match his. Stoner's title in 2007 was awesome but you have to give Rossi credit for the next two years. He took on these younger, extremely talented riders and he beat them to win two more titles. For me, his last two titles are his most impressive because of the intense competition from the other riders and from his own teammate.

Unfortunately, since then, Rossi has gotten old (it happens to us all). He has maintained a competitive pace despite his age and his longevity is extremely impressive but he's an old guy out there and he's simply not fast enough to win championships anymore. Losing ability on the track seems to have led to more aggressive and disagreeable behavior off of it.

Honestly, he had good reason to be upset with Marquez after 2015. A lot of Marc's fans play dumb about what he did that year but it was obvious. I do think that there is genuine animosity between those two. Rossi sees Marc as someone who truly replaces him. With Stoner, the narrative was always that Rossi was the better all around rider while Casey maybe had the most speed but with Marc, there is no mitigating the praise heaped on him. He's clearly a cut above anyone else who came before him and Rossi seems to have some envy issues at the moment. Marc's lousy on-track behavior and lack of respect exacerbates that.

Honestly I think it's time for Rossi to retire. It seems obvious to me that Yamaha have decided to stick with him for financial and business reasons and not for his performance; which essentially makes him the equivalent of a pay driver. It also seems that he intentionally steers development of the bike away from his teammates. Any time he has a new teammate, the bike will gradually swing towards him in terms of performance. Jorge demolished him in 2013 but by 2014, Rossi was beating him. Likewise, Vinales was beating him early last year but by mid-year, he was lost. It seems that these changes in development direction are steering Yamaha into a dead end. The satellite bike is now beating them consistently and the whole thing just looks bad.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
I have the depressing feeling that Dovi is hitting his ceiling. In MotoGP it is essential to be fast while minimising your own race-ending mistakes. All the greats have been like that. I have the impression that once Dovizioso has seen himself as a WC, he is needing to extract that little more speed out of him and his bike, which is probably producing the mistakes he did not make before. This is in fact the first year he has started out as a bona fide championship candidate. And we have had two mistakes resulting in two zero points finishes in only five races.
I hope I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, Ducati would be well advised to keep Lorenzo and keep perfecting the bike for corner speed. It won't happen, but that would be the most rational.


Dovi got taken out in Jerez, there were 100+ crashes this weekend which must be a record considering every session was dry. He'll probably win next race. Stoner used to crash regularly.

No idea why they'd keep lorenzo. Even at Yamaha he was bad when the bike wasn't working really well. Just been beaten by 2 satellite bikes on a weekend where he was positive heading into the race, the project hasn't worked.
Only need a 1 year contract because bagnaia will be in the factory team if he adapts well enough to the big class next year


The question is why did Yamaha keep a 40 year old has been that hasn't won anything since 2009 despite being on a Yamaha but they let the one go that won them titles and would have been more likely to put up a fight against MM.

They could have had one of the strongest pairing in MotoGP, with the 2017 bike and two good riders but they decided to stick with Rossi who does what he can to slow his team mate down. He used to be good but it is time to go, no added value anymore but selling t-shirts and coming up with conspiracies to explain why he doesn't win anything anymore and vilifying his closest competitors more so than he has done in the past, of which he has done a lot.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

Let's not get carried away. Rossi can't be blamed for the behavior of other adults.


Yes he can and he did. People were booing and chanting against Iannone if I remember right for having the audacity to race him in PI I believe and as soon as Rossi told the fans to stop, they did. He vilified all his competitors that had a chance to or were about to beat him, Biaggi, Stoner, Lorenzo, MM, Giberneau just to name a few.

He was a good rider but him and his boyfriends are evil sore losers.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Posts: 26199
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

Let's not get carried away. Rossi can't be blamed for the behavior of other adults.

Ultimately, Rossi did come into MotoGP at a time when there weren't other elite-level riders in the sport. For the first several years of his career, his strongest competition were the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau. He was easily the class of the field at that time and he dominated the sport like no one since Agostini. Switching from Honda to Yamaha and continuing to win titles was immensely impressive. It was clear that he gave any team that had him an edge.

Things changed around 2006-2007 as guys like Stoner and Pedrosa came into the sport. Then in 2008, Lorenzo joined his team and there was a truly talented field of riders with elite skill to match his. Stoner's title in 2007 was awesome but you have to give Rossi credit for the next two years. He took on these younger, extremely talented riders and he beat them to win two more titles. For me, his last two titles are his most impressive because of the intense competition from the other riders and from his own teammate.

Unfortunately, since then, Rossi has gotten old (it happens to us all). He has maintained a competitive pace despite his age and his longevity is extremely impressive but he's an old guy out there and he's simply not fast enough to win championships anymore. Losing ability on the track seems to have led to more aggressive and disagreeable behavior off of it.

Honestly, he had good reason to be upset with Marquez after 2015. A lot of Marc's fans play dumb about what he did that year but it was obvious. I do think that there is genuine animosity between those two. Rossi sees Marc as someone who truly replaces him. With Stoner, the narrative was always that Rossi was the better all around rider while Casey maybe had the most speed but with Marc, there is no mitigating the praise heaped on him. He's clearly a cut above anyone else who came before him and Rossi seems to have some envy issues at the moment. Marc's lousy on-track behavior and lack of respect exacerbates that.

Honestly I think it's time for Rossi to retire. It seems obvious to me that Yamaha have decided to stick with him for financial and business reasons and not for his performance; which essentially makes him the equivalent of a pay driver. It also seems that he intentionally steers development of the bike away from his teammates. Any time he has a new teammate, the bike will gradually swing towards him in terms of performance. Jorge demolished him in 2013 but by 2014, Rossi was beating him. Likewise, Vinales was beating him early last year but by mid-year, he was lost. It seems that these changes in development direction are steering Yamaha into a dead end. The satellite bike is now beating them consistently and the whole thing just looks bad.

Well not discouraging the booing is the same as encouraging it, he's happy for Marquez to be booed.

Regarding Stoner it tended to look like Rossi was doing miracles against the superior Ducati until Rossi actually joined Ducati then we saw a reality check, meanwhile Stoner went to Honda won 10 races and the title.

With Marquez he accused him, maybe falsely accused him of helping Lorenzo at Phillip Island this despite Marquez passing Lorenzo for the win on the last lap, Rossi also questioned Pedrosa why he had raced so hard against him with Rossi and Lorenzo being the only title contenders going into the last 3 races. He had a points lead over Lorenzo and he felt that other riders should not be interfering, it should be just between him and Lorenzo and other riders should basically get out of the way.

This is Rossi using politics, putting pressure on riders not to interfere, he only needed to finish 1 place behind Lorenzo in each of the last 3 races to be Champion, shaming somebody like Marquez in front of the Worlds press in Malaysia to try and remove perhaps the biggest obstacle to his title aspirations was a grave mistake, Marquez is not someone to be intimidated, obviously he took it extremely personally and what happened, happened. The writers say to this day that Rossi made a tactical blunder in the Malaysian press conference and that's were he lost the title.

I actually think that Rossi is perhaps a cancer within Yamaha, like yourself and I've said this before, Vinales was the favourite for the title last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike, and again when Zarco started to look strong Rossi had the power within Yamaha to stop them helping him, all the Yamaha eggs seemingly have to be in the Rossi basket, a near 40 year old past his best.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Pretty obvious the writing is on the wall.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/89681 ... work-jorge

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

Let's not get carried away. Rossi can't be blamed for the behavior of other adults.

Ultimately, Rossi did come into MotoGP at a time when there weren't other elite-level riders in the sport. For the first several years of his career, his strongest competition were the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau. He was easily the class of the field at that time and he dominated the sport like no one since Agostini. Switching from Honda to Yamaha and continuing to win titles was immensely impressive. It was clear that he gave any team that had him an edge.

Things changed around 2006-2007 as guys like Stoner and Pedrosa came into the sport. Then in 2008, Lorenzo joined his team and there was a truly talented field of riders with elite skill to match his. Stoner's title in 2007 was awesome but you have to give Rossi credit for the next two years. He took on these younger, extremely talented riders and he beat them to win two more titles. For me, his last two titles are his most impressive because of the intense competition from the other riders and from his own teammate.

Unfortunately, since then, Rossi has gotten old (it happens to us all). He has maintained a competitive pace despite his age and his longevity is extremely impressive but he's an old guy out there and he's simply not fast enough to win championships anymore. Losing ability on the track seems to have led to more aggressive and disagreeable behavior off of it.

Honestly, he had good reason to be upset with Marquez after 2015. A lot of Marc's fans play dumb about what he did that year but it was obvious. I do think that there is genuine animosity between those two. Rossi sees Marc as someone who truly replaces him. With Stoner, the narrative was always that Rossi was the better all around rider while Casey maybe had the most speed but with Marc, there is no mitigating the praise heaped on him. He's clearly a cut above anyone else who came before him and Rossi seems to have some envy issues at the moment. Marc's lousy on-track behavior and lack of respect exacerbates that.

Honestly I think it's time for Rossi to retire. It seems obvious to me that Yamaha have decided to stick with him for financial and business reasons and not for his performance; which essentially makes him the equivalent of a pay driver. It also seems that he intentionally steers development of the bike away from his teammates. Any time he has a new teammate, the bike will gradually swing towards him in terms of performance. Jorge demolished him in 2013 but by 2014, Rossi was beating him. Likewise, Vinales was beating him early last year but by mid-year, he was lost. It seems that these changes in development direction are steering Yamaha into a dead end. The satellite bike is now beating them consistently and the whole thing just looks bad.

Well not discouraging the booing is the same as encouraging it, he's happy for Marquez to be booed.

Regarding Stoner it tended to look like Rossi was doing miracles against the superior Ducati until Rossi actually joined Ducati then we saw a reality check, meanwhile Stoner went to Honda won 10 races and the title.

With Marquez he accused him, maybe falsely accused him of helping Lorenzo at Phillip Island this despite Marquez passing Lorenzo for the win on the last lap, Rossi also questioned Pedrosa why he had raced so hard against him with Rossi and Lorenzo being the only title contenders going into the last 3 races. He had a points lead over Lorenzo and he felt that other riders should not be interfering, it should be just between him and Lorenzo and other riders should basically get out of the way.

This is Rossi using politics, putting pressure on riders not to interfere, he only needed to finish 1 place behind Lorenzo in each of the last 3 races to be Champion, shaming somebody like Marquez in front of the Worlds press in Malaysia to try and remove perhaps the biggest obstacle to his title aspirations was a grave mistake, Marquez is not someone to be intimidated, obviously he took it extremely personally and what happened, happened. The writers say to this day that Rossi made a tactical blunder in the Malaysian press conference and that's were he lost the title.

I actually think that Rossi is perhaps a cancer within Yamaha, like yourself and I've said this before, Vinales was the favourite for the title last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike, and again when Zarco started to look strong Rossi had the power within Yamaha to stop them helping him, all the Yamaha eggs seemingly have to be in the Rossi basket, a near 40 year old past his best.

Two things you've said here that I totally disagree with are first: the notion that Rossi's time at Ducati proves something about Stoner. It doesn't. if you recall, Ducati surged to the forefront in 2007 when the bikes went to 800cc engines. Stoner dominated that year and won 10 races. In 2008 he won 6 races and fought for the title and lost. In 2009 he won 4 races. In 2010 he won just 3 races. In other words, the Ducati was losing ground relative to the competition the whole time and Stoner was actually the only rider who was ever really able to unlock the bike back then. Even today, there are a lot of European riders who simply cannot get comfortable with the Ducati. Rossi was not riding the Ducati in 2007; he was riding it in 2011 and 2012 after the re-introduction of 1000cc engines. The bike he was on was NOT the same bike Stoner was on and the comparison you are trying to draw is not valid.

Secondly, in 2015, Marquez absolutely did try to help Lorenzo to the title. He did intentionally slow Rossi down multiple times in the last couple of rounds and what Rossi said about Philip Island was absolutely true. Just watch the race. Watch Marquez on the last few laps and look at what he does. In Malaysia, yet again, Marquez tried to slow Rossi down. The data proves it out as he had great pace until he got in front of Rossi then his pace dropped off. Then Rossi would pass him and then they would do the whole thing all over again. I sometimes wonder whether people really just don't see that or whether they willfully ignore it. Marquez had the pace to ride off into the distance in those races but actually went out of his way to mess with the championship; trying to prevent Rossi from winning. There are people who recognize this and there are ones who don't but it happened. Now you might suggest that it's Marc's prerogative to mess with Rossi if he wants to and technically it is certainly not against the rules. Playing dumb about it is the part I have an issue with.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Pretty obvious the writing is on the wall.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/89681 ... work-jorge

Yep

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:33 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
It is truly unbelievable the hatred and such that gets spewed online from Rossi fans.

I think Rossi is cool, I always have. But goodness me, his fervent fans are something else. Their like scientologists. :lol:

Rossi's not cool because he encourages his fans to be like that.

Let's not get carried away. Rossi can't be blamed for the behavior of other adults.

Ultimately, Rossi did come into MotoGP at a time when there weren't other elite-level riders in the sport. For the first several years of his career, his strongest competition were the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau. He was easily the class of the field at that time and he dominated the sport like no one since Agostini. Switching from Honda to Yamaha and continuing to win titles was immensely impressive. It was clear that he gave any team that had him an edge.

Things changed around 2006-2007 as guys like Stoner and Pedrosa came into the sport. Then in 2008, Lorenzo joined his team and there was a truly talented field of riders with elite skill to match his. Stoner's title in 2007 was awesome but you have to give Rossi credit for the next two years. He took on these younger, extremely talented riders and he beat them to win two more titles. For me, his last two titles are his most impressive because of the intense competition from the other riders and from his own teammate.

Unfortunately, since then, Rossi has gotten old (it happens to us all). He has maintained a competitive pace despite his age and his longevity is extremely impressive but he's an old guy out there and he's simply not fast enough to win championships anymore. Losing ability on the track seems to have led to more aggressive and disagreeable behavior off of it.

Honestly, he had good reason to be upset with Marquez after 2015. A lot of Marc's fans play dumb about what he did that year but it was obvious. I do think that there is genuine animosity between those two. Rossi sees Marc as someone who truly replaces him. With Stoner, the narrative was always that Rossi was the better all around rider while Casey maybe had the most speed but with Marc, there is no mitigating the praise heaped on him. He's clearly a cut above anyone else who came before him and Rossi seems to have some envy issues at the moment. Marc's lousy on-track behavior and lack of respect exacerbates that.

Honestly I think it's time for Rossi to retire. It seems obvious to me that Yamaha have decided to stick with him for financial and business reasons and not for his performance; which essentially makes him the equivalent of a pay driver. It also seems that he intentionally steers development of the bike away from his teammates. Any time he has a new teammate, the bike will gradually swing towards him in terms of performance. Jorge demolished him in 2013 but by 2014, Rossi was beating him. Likewise, Vinales was beating him early last year but by mid-year, he was lost. It seems that these changes in development direction are steering Yamaha into a dead end. The satellite bike is now beating them consistently and the whole thing just looks bad.

Well not discouraging the booing is the same as encouraging it, he's happy for Marquez to be booed.

Regarding Stoner it tended to look like Rossi was doing miracles against the superior Ducati until Rossi actually joined Ducati then we saw a reality check, meanwhile Stoner went to Honda won 10 races and the title.

With Marquez he accused him, maybe falsely accused him of helping Lorenzo at Phillip Island this despite Marquez passing Lorenzo for the win on the last lap, Rossi also questioned Pedrosa why he had raced so hard against him with Rossi and Lorenzo being the only title contenders going into the last 3 races. He had a points lead over Lorenzo and he felt that other riders should not be interfering, it should be just between him and Lorenzo and other riders should basically get out of the way.

This is Rossi using politics, putting pressure on riders not to interfere, he only needed to finish 1 place behind Lorenzo in each of the last 3 races to be Champion, shaming somebody like Marquez in front of the Worlds press in Malaysia to try and remove perhaps the biggest obstacle to his title aspirations was a grave mistake, Marquez is not someone to be intimidated, obviously he took it extremely personally and what happened, happened. The writers say to this day that Rossi made a tactical blunder in the Malaysian press conference and that's were he lost the title.

I actually think that Rossi is perhaps a cancer within Yamaha, like yourself and I've said this before, Vinales was the favourite for the title last year until Rossi decided he didn't like the bike, and again when Zarco started to look strong Rossi had the power within Yamaha to stop them helping him, all the Yamaha eggs seemingly have to be in the Rossi basket, a near 40 year old past his best.

Two things you've said here that I totally disagree with are first: the notion that Rossi's time at Ducati proves something about Stoner. It doesn't. if you recall, Ducati surged to the forefront in 2007 when the bikes went to 800cc engines. Stoner dominated that year and won 10 races. In 2008 he won 6 races and fought for the title and lost. In 2009 he won 4 races. In 2010 he won just 3 races. In other words, the Ducati was losing ground relative to the competition the whole time and Stoner was actually the only rider who was ever really able to unlock the bike back then. Even today, there are a lot of European riders who simply cannot get comfortable with the Ducati. Rossi was not riding the Ducati in 2007; he was riding it in 2011 and 2012 after the re-introduction of 1000cc engines. The bike he was on was NOT the same bike Stoner was on and the comparison you are trying to draw is not valid.

Secondly, in 2015, Marquez absolutely did try to help Lorenzo to the title. He did intentionally slow Rossi down multiple times in the last couple of rounds and what Rossi said about Philip Island was absolutely true. Just watch the race. Watch Marquez on the last few laps and look at what he does. In Malaysia, yet again, Marquez tried to slow Rossi down. The data proves it out as he had great pace until he got in front of Rossi then his pace dropped off. Then Rossi would pass him and then they would do the whole thing all over again. I sometimes wonder whether people really just don't see that or whether they willfully ignore it. Marquez had the pace to ride off into the distance in those races but actually went out of his way to mess with the championship; trying to prevent Rossi from winning. There are people who recognize this and there are ones who don't but it happened. Now you might suggest that it's Marc's prerogative to mess with Rossi if he wants to and technically it is certainly not against the rules. Playing dumb about it is the part I have an issue with.

The engine regulations didn't change until 2012, in Stoner's final season with Ducati in 2010 he had 3 wins plus a further 6 podiums, 4 pole positions and 3 fastest laps, in fact Stoner won 3 of the last 6 races, Rossi took his place and had 1 podium and 1 fastest lap in the wet after he crashed Stoner out of the race.

Phillip Island is unproven, I've just watched the last 4 laps and I see nothing that Marquez did wrong, the one interfering with Rossi the most was Iannone, he was diving past both Marquez and Rossi whereas Marquez and Rossi were hardly ever together, it was Rossi and Iannone battling on the last lap that allowed Lorenzo and Marquez to pull a gap. If you want to get the tin foil hat on you could make a far stronger case for Iannone deliberately sabotaging Rossi's race.

What happened after that was the result of what Rossi said about Marquez in Malyasia, he totally belittled him, like he belittled riders before him, it's like he thinks he has free reign to attack his fellow competitors, I guess some crack, Marquez did the opposite.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Lorenzo on a satellite Yamaha next year?

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... 41734/amp/

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Lorenzo on a satellite Yamaha next year?

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... 41734/amp/

I've seen people speculate that Dorna would look to keep Lorenzo in MotoGP but I wonder who exactly is going to stump up his hefty salary?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:16 am 
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Posts: 2554
pokerman wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Lorenzo on a satellite Yamaha next year?

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... 41734/amp/

I've seen people speculate that Dorna would look to keep Lorenzo in MotoGP but I wonder who exactly is going to stump up his hefty salary?


You mean other than billionaire team owner Marc van der Straten?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Id love to see Lorenzo move to F1 inplace of Bottas


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