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How will McLaren compare to Toro Rosso in 2018
McLaren score greater than 75 points more 39%  39%  [ 26 ]
McLaren score 51 - 75 more 15%  15%  [ 10 ]
McLaren score 26 - 50 more 12%  12%  [ 8 ]
McLaren score 11 - 25 more 9%  9%  [ 6 ]
McLaren score -10 to 10 of Toro Rosso's score (roughly even) 7%  7%  [ 5 ]
McLaren score 11 - 25 less 7%  7%  [ 5 ]
McLaren score 26 - 50 less 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
McLaren score 51 - 75 less 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
McLaren score greater than 75 less 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 67
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 Post subject: McLaren vs Honda 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:27 am 
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Given the stick that McLaren and Amazon gave Honda, this is going to be the most interesting battle over 2018 if McLaren don't end up trouncing Toro Rosso.

So, how many points do people think McLaren will get compared to Toro Rosso by the end of the season?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:15 am 
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I think probably ~150 for Macca, less than 50 for Toro Rosso. I don't think it will be remotely close.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:59 am 
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Since Mclaren announced they will go with Renault they have been constantly saying they will compete with RBR and since RBR won races last years they too can do it this year. After saying all that they are competing with 5th or 6th team would be really embarrassing :-|

I do not think they will compete with RBR. At best they will be 4th some way behind RBR so mainly competing with 5th or even 6th best team and most races fighting with mid field teams. STR have more money now so I would think they should be improving the car constantly but customers Mercedes and Ferrari team will obviously have engine advantage. It is very difficult to predict :?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:30 am 
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Honda seem to have made some good progress I'll give them that, and I hope it's true. I'm curious to see what happens when they turn that engine up.
What will make the biggest difference is the drivers. Honda need to have not only an equall engine, but a better engine if they want Gasly and Hartley to beat Alonso and Vandoorne.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:28 am 
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I think Macca will have 75 points on TR by around mid season

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:33 am 
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That's the $64,000 question, really. Frankly, if McLaren don't whip TR then their decision to leave Honda will have been a hideous mistake. Just beating them is not enough IMO.

They need to be competing with Red Bull at the very least. With the same engine and backed by the resources they have, there's no excuse for them not to be. The entire reason for leaving Honda was so they could be assured of competing at the front end again.

And if Honda suddenly come good and produce a PU that enables TR to mix it with the big boys, then McLaren's abandoning of a Works deal just before Honda hit their stride will be very embarrassing and costly and will no doubt cause a lot of long faces at McLaren. That's $100M per year and Works backing down the tubes, and all their pain of the last three years will just be amplified. They'll have been TR's development biatches. Worse, they'll have handed Red Bull a golden ticket for the future.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:37 am 
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Honda made some progress, granted. But other than a few glorious years as the very best two/three decades ago, they have only ever struggled in F1.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:35 am 
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In the last three seasons, 4th in the WCC has scored 187, 173 and 187 points, while 5th has scored 136, 138 and 83. Given that I do not expect McLaren to be finish higher than 4th, and right now I'd put them 5th at best, I see them scoring approximately 120 points. It's a little harder to predict points totals this year because we don't know how well the engines will cope with having to do seven races each, so if reliability starts becoming an issue it could allow teams with the more reliable engine to take advantage and score bigger points more often. Saying that, as I'd assume Renault are more likely to have reliability issues than Mercedes or even Ferrari it would probably be something that would cost McLaren points rather than gain them any, if it has any impact at all.

As for Toro Rosso, I can't see them finishing higher than 8th in the WCC and I think anything over 30 points would be a good return. I'd consider it more likely to be less than that, probably closer to 15.

So I'll say McLaren will score somewhere between 75 and 100 points more than Toro Rosso. Which probably won't be much of a consolation if they're the slowest Renault-powered team, and Red Bull are fighting for race wins while McLaren aren't really genuine podium contenders...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 pm 
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The honda PU was decent in terms of reliablility towards the end of last season. I doubt they can make a big step change in performace given they have not been able to do so in the past 3 years, and neither have Renualt or Ferrari managed to leapfrog in the pecking order. Further it was cold so the jury is out on how the PU will perform in hotter weather. STR also has rookie drivers and their budget is relativly small. They have done a good job to integrate the PU though.
All in all i dont think STR will be a threat to Mclaren. I think 75 points more for Mclaren
It will be disapointing if Mclaren are not fighting RBR and that is my main concern.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Hard to put a number on it as I think McLaren will get stronger through the year and STR weaker as both have tended to do recently but I like Jenson's Understeer's reasoning and numbers so I'll echo 75-100pts to Macca.

STR-Honda had a good reliable test but we've got to remember Renault were turned way down and McLaren were only doing aero/mechanical checks on the softest compound. They moved to Soft for their first long-ish run with Alonso on the last day but only looked around Renault pace I believe but because they were behind in their programme that's not surprising.

Last two days next week assuming McLaren aren't still behind in lap count, should reveal much more.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:00 pm 
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I can't see it even being close. Toro Rosso will not be competitive.

The more important question is how will McLaren compare to the senior Red Bull team? With all the bold claims they've been making about their chassis for the past three years, they have to be able to compete with them. There's nowhere to hide for McLaren this year, they can have no excuses.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:50 am 
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IMO Mclaren are incompetent and STR like FI are very talented team with limited resources. Having said that if Mclaren again have a bad year they should still score more than 100pts. I mean 7th and 8th for 10races is 100pts. Top 6 places will be difficult so remaining 4 places is a scrap between Mclaren, Renault mostly I guess ?? STR may not score to many pts ? Midfield this year is going to be most interesting lol

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Toro Rosso are certainly taking the talking fight to McLaren with this troll...



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Honda join in with the barbs..


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
They need to be competing with Red Bull at the very least. .


I don't agree. They have a new PU to work with, while RBR have worked with Renault for years. They would know better how to handle it.
Furthermore, McLaren the past years have had to design and setup around the Honda's deficiencies, they've had to compromise a lot. Following that, they won't have nearly as much relevant data guiding them forwards.

Those are major points you don't just negate with a few days testing.

Their goal should be fourth in the championship and catching up to RBR towards the end of the season, then really take the fight to RBR next year. If they accomplish that it'll be a success.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:47 pm 
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I went for Mclaren 25 in front. My thinking on it? IF RBR are seriously thinking of using the Honda engine next year, why would they not give all the aid they can to STR this year, as it is helping themselves next year.

I seriously do not think if it was STR alone they would be in the same game, but the chance for RBR to help themselves while poking Mclaren and Renault in the eye sounds too good a chance for them to pass up on.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:49 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
They need to be competing with Red Bull at the very least. .


I don't agree. They have a new PU to work with, while RBR have worked with Renault for years. They would know better how to handle it.
Furthermore, McLaren the past years have had to design and setup around the Honda's deficiencies, they've had to compromise a lot. Following that, they won't have nearly as much relevant data guiding them forwards.

Those are major points you don't just negate with a few days testing.

Their goal should be fourth in the championship and catching up to RBR towards the end of the season, then really take the fight to RBR next year. If they accomplish that it'll be a success.


Agree yeah. They've got a similar budget, similar workforce and similar facilities as Renault so even beating them will be tough but 4th has to be the target and I'll take anything within half a second of Red Bull post Spain.

Before Spain will be very tough after this testing headache. They've obviously gone too aggressive on cooling so that will need fixed or they'll be running the engine conservatively.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:23 am 
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Zoue wrote:
That's the $64,000 question, really. Frankly, if McLaren don't whip TR then their decision to leave Honda will have been a hideous mistake. Just beating them is not enough IMO.

They need to be competing with Red Bull at the very least. With the same engine and backed by the resources they have, there's no excuse for them not to be. The entire reason for leaving Honda was so they could be assured of competing at the front end again.

And if Honda suddenly come good and produce a PU that enables TR to mix it with the big boys, then McLaren's abandoning of a Works deal just before Honda hit their stride will be very embarrassing and costly and will no doubt cause a lot of long faces at McLaren. That's $100M per year and Works backing down the tubes, and all their pain of the last three years will just be amplified. They'll have been TR's development biatches. Worse, they'll have handed Red Bull a golden ticket for the future.


100m sounds like an underestimate to me. It's clearly a minimum though.

If McL don't get at least 5th then all the 'it's Honda not us' will die an ignominious death, no?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:
Zoue wrote:
That's the $64,000 question, really. Frankly, if McLaren don't whip TR then their decision to leave Honda will have been a hideous mistake. Just beating them is not enough IMO.

They need to be competing with Red Bull at the very least. With the same engine and backed by the resources they have, there's no excuse for them not to be. The entire reason for leaving Honda was so they could be assured of competing at the front end again.

And if Honda suddenly come good and produce a PU that enables TR to mix it with the big boys, then McLaren's abandoning of a Works deal just before Honda hit their stride will be very embarrassing and costly and will no doubt cause a lot of long faces at McLaren. That's $100M per year and Works backing down the tubes, and all their pain of the last three years will just be amplified. They'll have been TR's development biatches. Worse, they'll have handed Red Bull a golden ticket for the future.


100m sounds like an underestimate to me. It's clearly a minimum though.

If McL don't get at least 5th then all the 'it's Honda not us' will die an ignominious death, no?

Not really, no. The past was definitely Honda - even Honda admitted as much. What may happen in the future won't have a bearing on the past.

But if McLaren aren't much better than TR, then it will make their decision to abandon works status look premature


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:13 am 
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Taken purely as a business decision, the choice to end a works deal will not have been made easily.

McLaren must have felt it had no chance of significant improvement.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:09 am 
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We have to wait till the end of the year. But Mcalren 0.7secs faster than TR in practice2. Assuming Mclaren drivers are making at least 0.1-0.2sec difference there is still 0.5secs advantage. I wonder how much difference is it due to the engine and how much depends on the car itself ?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
We have to wait till the end of the year. But Mcalren 0.7secs faster than TR in practice2. Assuming Mclaren drivers are making at least 0.1-0.2sec difference there is still 0.5secs advantage. I wonder how much difference is it due to the engine and how much depends on the car itself ?


STR are a bit up and down - they've shown in the past they can make a good chassis but it's not always spot on. So very hard to say.

McLaren are pretty much where I expected them to be - maybe one position lower as they should be in front of Haas. If they get in front of Haas come race day, then I think their weekend meets primary target and they'll have a solid base to build upon.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:23 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Given the stick that McLaren and Amazon gave Honda, this is going to be the most interesting battle over 2018 if McLaren don't end up trouncing Toro Rosso.

So, how many points do people think McLaren will get compared to Toro Rosso by the end of the season?


Honda deserved it though. They had two major points going against them: reliability and power. If you can't have power.. at least have reliability.

I personally see an improvement in both, more reliability than before. They've already done better than previous winter testing's especially the first one.

I see McLaren fighting best of the rest, maybe not consistent enough because this is still a different engine being built in to a car which had been developed with Honda for the last few seasons. Plus it wasn't exactly an early decision made to switch.

So McLaren should be comparing this to the 2nd season with Honda. I'd say 1st but.. Honda was a brand new engine from scratch. If they are fighting consistently top 10, it's already on par with last season if not better than last season. Which is a positive.

Better than the Toro? Yes by a nice margin.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:48 am 
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https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/03/28/mclaren-most-improved-team-in-qualifying/

So it seems that McLaren were the most improved team on the grid, with Renault being the most improved PU. Toro Rosso were the only team that actually went backwards from their 2017 qualifying time. Which would tend to support the decision by McLaren to make the move to Renault power. It also makes it quite hard to reconcile the claims that the Honda unit is only just behind the Renault one.

In other news, Sauber's leap in performance shows just how much they were hampered by having a year old PU last year

Difference to last year:

1. McLaren - -1.8 seconds
2. Sauber - -1.7 seconds
3. Red Bull - -1.6 seconds
4. Renault - -1.4 seconds
5. Force India - -1.1 seconds
6. Mercedes - -1.0 second
7. Haas - -0.9 of a second
8. Ferrari - -0.6 of a second
9. Williams - -0.2 of a second
10. Toro Rosso +0.04 of a second


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:12 am 
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Zoue wrote:
https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/03/28/mclaren-most-improved-team-in-qualifying/

So it seems that McLaren were the most improved team on the grid, with Renault being the most improved PU. Toro Rosso were the only team that actually went backwards from their 2017 qualifying time. Which would tend to support the decision by McLaren to make the move to Renault power. It also makes it quite hard to reconcile the claims that the Honda unit is only just behind the Renault one.

In other news, Sauber's leap in performance shows just how much they were hampered by having a year old PU last year

Difference to last year:

1. McLaren - -1.8 seconds
2. Sauber - -1.7 seconds
3. Red Bull - -1.6 seconds
4. Renault - -1.4 seconds
5. Force India - -1.1 seconds
6. Mercedes - -1.0 second
7. Haas - -0.9 of a second
8. Ferrari - -0.6 of a second
9. Williams - -0.2 of a second
10. Toro Rosso +0.04 of a second


Interesting.
At Toro Rosso, the drivers would probably play a role though. You'd expect both Sainz and Kvyat, with a few years of experience, to be faster than Gasly and Hartley. Especially since Gasly mucked up his final qualifying lap. In Japan Sainz was 8 tenths faster than Gasly in qualifying, that would put STR a bit higher up and gaining.

One can't deny the Renault teams all being up there in the top half though. Renault must have seriously improved.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:57 pm 
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One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

Also confirmed they had to postpone the Australia upgrade package and some of it is coming in Bahrain and some in China. New nose has to go through crash tests and will be introduced in Spain.

Probably close that 0.8 (Sky Mark Hughes) gap to Red Bull a bit but they'll have an upgrade package in Spain for sure so Macca could end up chasing their tail a bit but that's why they're on the back foot a bit.

A little reassuring that there is at least good reason why the gap is big rather than that's all they've got (Oz) and it's head scratching time but it will be tough to out develop the big boys to get back in the mix.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

Also confirmed they had to postpone the Australia upgrade package and some of it is coming in Bahrain and some in China. New nose has to go through crash tests and will be introduced in Spain.

Probably close that 0.8 (Sky Mark Hughes) gap to Red Bull a bit but they'll have an upgrade package in Spain for sure so Macca could end up chasing their tail a bit but that's why they're on the back foot a bit.

A little reassuring that there is at least good reason why the gap is big rather than that's all they've got (Oz) and it's head scratching time but it will be tough to out develop the big boys to get back in the mix.

Good info. Didn't know that about the wheelbase.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

Also confirmed they had to postpone the Australia upgrade package and some of it is coming in Bahrain and some in China. New nose has to go through crash tests and will be introduced in Spain.

Probably close that 0.8 (Sky Mark Hughes) gap to Red Bull a bit but they'll have an upgrade package in Spain for sure so Macca could end up chasing their tail a bit but that's why they're on the back foot a bit.

A little reassuring that there is at least good reason why the gap is big rather than that's all they've got (Oz) and it's head scratching time but it will be tough to out develop the big boys to get back in the mix.

Good info. Didn't know that about the wheelbase.


2 good articles about it here..

Wheelbase and 0.8 from Hughes... http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12536/ ... 2018-start

Interview with Eric B.... http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/43562369

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

Also confirmed they had to postpone the Australia upgrade package and some of it is coming in Bahrain and some in China. New nose has to go through crash tests and will be introduced in Spain.

Probably close that 0.8 (Sky Mark Hughes) gap to Red Bull a bit but they'll have an upgrade package in Spain for sure so Macca could end up chasing their tail a bit but that's why they're on the back foot a bit.

A little reassuring that there is at least good reason why the gap is big rather than that's all they've got (Oz) and it's head scratching time but it will be tough to out develop the big boys to get back in the mix.

Good info. Didn't know that about the wheelbase.


2 good articles about it here..

Wheelbase and 0.8 from Hughes... http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12536/ ... 2018-start

Interview with Eric B.... http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/43562369

Thanks. The SKY one in particular really paints a picture of how different the car is from last year :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

So in other words, the car is different enough that maybe you can't use this car to prove that the 2017 chassis was never good? 8)

Back on topic, I think the question now is whether Toro Rosso will score a point, not whether McLaren will outscore them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

So in other words, the car is different enough that maybe you can't use this car to prove that the 2017 chassis was never good? 8)

Back on topic, I think the question now is whether Toro Rosso will score a point, not whether McLaren will outscore them.


The 12 points McLaren earned in Australia are most likely enough to beat Toro Rosso all year.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:24 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

So in other words, the car is different enough that maybe you can't use this car to prove that the 2017 chassis was never good? 8)

Back on topic, I think the question now is whether Toro Rosso will score a point, not whether McLaren will outscore them.


The 12 points McLaren earned in Australia are most likely enough to beat Toro Rosso all year.


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 am 
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jrwb6e wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

So in other words, the car is different enough that maybe you can't use this car to prove that the 2017 chassis was never good? 8)

Back on topic, I think the question now is whether Toro Rosso will score a point, not whether McLaren will outscore them.


The 12 points McLaren earned in Australia are most likely enough to beat Toro Rosso all year.


Toro Rosso should score more than 12 points this year but I doubt they will beat the 53 points they scored last year. My guess is that they won't get near 53 points.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:51 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One thing I didn't realise was McLaren extended their wheelbase this year, I think for the PU switch but could also just be because that's where it's going to maximise bargeboard area and reduce drag.

So in other words, the car is different enough that maybe you can't use this car to prove that the 2017 chassis was never good? 8)

Back on topic, I think the question now is whether Toro Rosso will score a point, not whether McLaren will outscore them.


The 12 points McLaren earned in Australia are most likely enough to beat Toro Rosso all year.


Toro Rosso should score more than 12 points this year but I doubt they will beat the 53 points they scored last year. My guess is that they won't get near 53 points.


That may be true - but it's also because the Haas and others have massively improved or got current spec engines - it's all relative


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Both McLarens out qualified by both Toro Rossos in Bahrain. That is an embarrassment for McLaren after all their bold claims about their chassis last year and they need to turn this around very quickly if they want to be considered anything more than a midfield team.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:01 pm 
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j man wrote:
Both McLarens out qualified by both Toro Rossos in Bahrain. That is an embarrassment for McLaren after all their bold claims about their chassis last year and they need to turn this around very quickly if they want to be considered anything more than a midfield team.

I heard they had big upgrades coming for China so let's see.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:08 pm 
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If tomorrow also they finish ahead of Mclaren it will be huge embarrassment for sure. Especially here as Bahrain King is one of the key share holder, owner of Mclaren team

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Alonso was right they'll leave the midfield behind.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:36 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Alonso was right they'll leave the midfield behind.

That's just cruel. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Even McLaren don't know why they are so off the pace:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/135237/mclaren-astonished-by-poor-pace-in-bahrain


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