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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:14 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.


What actually happened was Verstappen out performing Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.


That is a stretch!
A reigning world champ had zero wins vs Dan’s 3 wins in 2014.
Dan’s performance was so strong that when Vettel asked if he could leave his Red Bull contract 1 year early, they let him. (Was contracted till the end of 2015)

When Max signed up for 3 years, Red Bull still don’t want to let Dan go.

Dan’s motivation has been down due to being at Red Bull for 4 years and still they haven’t produced a title contender.
Dan and Max split their set ups quite a lot in 2017. Eg Dan going lower downforce vs Max higher down force. Sometimes it worked for Dan, other times for Max.
Then for the last 4 races Max has had a newer spec engine that is supposedly worth an extra 1-2 tenths, yet still Dan beat him in qualifying 2 of those 4 races, with the margin at the last being 4 tenths.

And for 2 years running Dan has come out on top in points.
Max is good, but he makes more mistakes than Dan.
And for that I expect Dan to beat him in points again in 2018 too (to get his first wdc).

Verstappen's beating of Ricciardo in qualifying is close to the same as the beating that Vettel got in 2014, Verstappen also won 2 races on merit whereas Ricciardo's 1 win was very much gifted when half the grid either crashed, had mechanical problems or got penalised, Riccardo scored more points like Vandoorne nearly scored more points than Alonso, like Stroll nearly scored more points than Massa, it didn't tell the true story.

Vettel left Red Bull because it was in his contract that he could leave, he begged no one, whilst Red Bull clearly targeted Verstappen as their main priority when they gave him the rumoured $40M a year contract, good luck with that if Ricciardo gets anywhere near that kind of contract.

If we're writing off Ricciardo's win in Baku then Verstappen's wins don't count either.

Malaysia, both Ferrari drivers had mechanical issues that took them out the running when the Ferrari was the fastest car all weekend. In Mexico Verstappen was gifted the win by Hamilton and Vettel's contact.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.


What actually happened was Verstappen out performing Ricciardo.

The points don't lie. Ricciardo has finished ahead despite having more reliability woes to contend with.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
[
I think he needs to be more aggressive at the starts as well though,Max has been excellent in that department and I think that's the biggest difference between the two this year. Everything else has been pretty close really and even after adjusting for luck the points difference isn't that big although it does turn in Max's favour though in most of the breakdowns I've seen to be fair yeah.


Given Max had 3 first lap retirements due to contact, and 3 other first lap incidents where other drivers suffered damage (one of whom, Ricciardo, was terminal) then there's a school of thought that might argue that Verstappen needs to pick and choose when he takes his risks.

For me, I still can't go by the Italian Grand Prix as a microcosm of both drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:05 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
If we're writing off Ricciardo's win in Baku then Verstappen's wins don't count either.

Malaysia, both Ferrari drivers had mechanical issues that took them out the running when the Ferrari was the fastest car all weekend. In Mexico Verstappen was gifted the win by Hamilton and Vettel's contact.

Verstappen overtook Vettel in Mexico at the start, the contact between Seb and Lewis happened behind him. Max won Mexico on merit.

His win in Malaysia was quite lucky. As you said, if Ferrari did not have technical problems then Max probably doesn’t win.

However, it was not anywhere near as lucky as Ricciardo’s win in Baku. Mercedes and Ferrari all take themselves out of the equation, Verstappen has a technical failure, so does Massa, the Force India’s crash. That was the luckiest win in living memory. There’s nothing wrong with that of course, you take the opportunities presented to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:28 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Had their car been a merc, Daniel would have been champion this year and the other, if we take points alone. Of course, this is just an example. It doesn't have to be conclusive, but all this talk about beating teammates, or who is better, would not exist, if the dominant car would have been the redbull. Daniel has outscored Max again,

This is one side of the story.

When the car was not on top, even Hamilton struggled to beat Button sometimes.

SO of course, there are different ways of putting things.

Hamilton is a weird character, to say the least. I personally despise people with such characters, as they can't get over frustrations from the past.

If they had been driving the Mercs then their car wouldn't have been breaking down so this outscoring Verstappen would probably not have happened.

Regarding Hamilton I guess it must be very frustrating to have 4 titles, 60 odd wins and 70 odd pole positions?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.


That is a stretch!
A reigning world champ had zero wins vs Dan’s 3 wins in 2014.
Dan’s performance was so strong that when Vettel asked if he could leave his Red Bull contract 1 year early, they let him. (Was contracted till the end of 2015)

When Max signed up for 3 years, Red Bull still don’t want to let Dan go.

Dan’s motivation has been down due to being at Red Bull for 4 years and still they haven’t produced a title contender.
Dan and Max split their set ups quite a lot in 2017. Eg Dan going lower downforce vs Max higher down force. Sometimes it worked for Dan, other times for Max.
Then for the last 4 races Max has had a newer spec engine that is supposedly worth an extra 1-2 tenths, yet still Dan beat him in qualifying 2 of those 4 races, with the margin at the last being 4 tenths.

And for 2 years running Dan has come out on top in points.
Max is good, but he makes more mistakes than Dan.
And for that I expect Dan to beat him in points again in 2018 too (to get his first wdc).

Verstappen's beating of Ricciardo in qualifying is close to the same as the beating that Vettel got in 2014, Verstappen also won 2 races on merit whereas Ricciardo's 1 win was very much gifted when half the grid either crashed, had mechanical problems or got penalised, Riccardo scored more points like Vandoorne nearly scored more points than Alonso, like Stroll nearly scored more points than Massa, it didn't tell the true story.

Vettel left Red Bull because it was in his contract that he could leave, he begged no one, whilst Red Bull clearly targeted Verstappen as their main priority when they gave him the rumoured $40M a year contract, good luck with that if Ricciardo gets anywhere near that kind of contract.


Neither does lumping Dan's performance relative to Max in with the likes of Stoff's and Stroll's to their team mate's. He was far far closer to Max than those two got to theirs.

He lost out mainly in starts and of course Q. But even the 13-7 scoreline doesn't tell the whole story there. Dan had a rough patch in the middle quarters of the season but won both the 1st and last 3-2. He gave Max 2 freebies by crashing. The team gave Max two more in Monaco and GB through reliability/sending him out in traffic. He got another freebie in Mexico but both Dan/engineers need to take the blame there set up wise. (And Dan himself got a gift in China)

5 of the 13 for Max were practically gifts and hard to get a handle on pace wise. 6 Q3's were under a tenth which is a coin toss (It went 3-3). 9 of the 16 Q3's we got to see were under 0.154.

0.021
0.026
0.026
0.054
0.081
0.087
0.139
0.142
0.154
0.256
0.369
0.405
0.469
0.483
0.502
0.873

Much like the Sunday Max had the higher high's but Dan was generally there or thereabouts for the majority so if Max has been so impressive then it speaks highly of Dan too.

Dan's biggest issue appeared to be with getting heat into the tyres for grip and with the hypersoft next year two steps softer I'm not convinced he's going to struggle as badly and it wouldn't surprise me if he turned that Q deficit around like Lewis did in 2015 (from 2014).

I think he needs to be more aggressive at the starts as well though,Max has been excellent in that department and I think that's the biggest difference between the two this year. Everything else has been pretty close really and even after adjusting for luck the points difference isn't that big although it does turn in Max's favour though in most of the breakdowns I've seen to be fair yeah.

Sorry for the long post and maybe you didn't mean to lump Dan in with them in that sense but I've seen some exaggerating of the gap between Max and Dan going around some places and thought I'd stick my 2 cents worth in. Don't get me wrong, Max had the higher highs but he also had the lowest low in Hungary and Dan's consistency and race craft kept it pretty close and respectable imo. Qualifying might resemble the Dan vs Seb battle but that's pretty much it.

No it was just an example of how points can be misleading.

I guess I came away with the same feeling that Hamilton had and the Red Bull team had when they prioritised sorting out Verstappen's contract even though it had 1 year longer than Ricciardo's contract to run.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Hamilton is a weird character, to say the least. I personally despise people with such characters, as they can't get over frustrations from the past.

Regarding Hamilton I guess it must be very frustrating to have 4 titles, 60 odd wins and 70 odd pole positions?

I would not classify myself as a Hamilton fan of any variety, but I have no idea where this guy is coming from on the 'weird character' comment, and I don't get the feeling that he's very frustrated - with the notable exception that I do get the feeling that he's still frustrated to have lost the title to Nico last year.

However, there are at least three drivers I can name right off the top of my head who are way ahead of Hamilton in being frustrated, and he can't even hold the candle of frustration near to Grosjean.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:38 am 
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purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?

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2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:39 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.

What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:45 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.


That is a stretch!
A reigning world champ had zero wins vs Dan’s 3 wins in 2014.
Dan’s performance was so strong that when Vettel asked if he could leave his Red Bull contract 1 year early, they let him. (Was contracted till the end of 2015)

When Max signed up for 3 years, Red Bull still don’t want to let Dan go.

Dan’s motivation has been down due to being at Red Bull for 4 years and still they haven’t produced a title contender.
Dan and Max split their set ups quite a lot in 2017. Eg Dan going lower downforce vs Max higher down force. Sometimes it worked for Dan, other times for Max.
Then for the last 4 races Max has had a newer spec engine that is supposedly worth an extra 1-2 tenths, yet still Dan beat him in qualifying 2 of those 4 races, with the margin at the last being 4 tenths.

And for 2 years running Dan has come out on top in points.
Max is good, but he makes more mistakes than Dan.
And for that I expect Dan to beat him in points again in 2018 too (to get his first wdc).

Verstappen's beating of Ricciardo in qualifying is close to the same as the beating that Vettel got in 2014, Verstappen also won 2 races on merit whereas Ricciardo's 1 win was very much gifted when half the grid either crashed, had mechanical problems or got penalised, Riccardo scored more points like Vandoorne nearly scored more points than Alonso, like Stroll nearly scored more points than Massa, it didn't tell the true story.

Vettel left Red Bull because it was in his contract that he could leave, he begged no one, whilst Red Bull clearly targeted Verstappen as their main priority when they gave him the rumoured $40M a year contract, good luck with that if Ricciardo gets anywhere near that kind of contract.

If we're writing off Ricciardo's win in Baku then Verstappen's wins don't count either.

Malaysia, both Ferrari drivers had mechanical issues that took them out the running when the Ferrari was the fastest car all weekend. In Mexico Verstappen was gifted the win by Hamilton and Vettel's contact.

In Mexico Verstappen was already in front, in Baku Ricciardo started 10th and basically needed all the cars in front of him to have problems for him to win the race.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:46 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.


What actually happened was Verstappen out performing Ricciardo.

The points don't lie. Ricciardo has finished ahead despite having more reliability woes to contend with.

The points didn't lie in 2015 then when Kvyat beat Ricciardo?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?


Ahead 80% of the time??? That would make Prost's 4 WDCs impressive indeed! Or make Senna the ultimate "choker"!!!
;)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:03 am 
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pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.

What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.


70 % of the time? Do you have a source for these "stats" or just pulling them out of your ..........?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Hamilton is a weird character, to say the least. I personally despise people with such characters, as they can't get over frustrations from the past.

Regarding Hamilton I guess it must be very frustrating to have 4 titles, 60 odd wins and 70 odd pole positions?

I would not classify myself as a Hamilton fan of any variety, but I have no idea where this guy is coming from on the 'weird character' comment, and I don't get the feeling that he's very frustrated - with the notable exception that I do get the feeling that he's still frustrated to have lost the title to Nico last year.

However, there are at least three drivers I can name right off the top of my head who are way ahead of Hamilton in being frustrated, and he can't even hold the candle of frustration near to Grosjean.


That is the point, considering that he has all those titles, his character is weird. It would not surprise me if someone not winning anything would be frustrated, but in Hamilton's case for me it is weird.

For example when he talks about Nico, he's always mentioning his good life in the past and how he was struggling on the other hand. Yes, we all know that financially for him it wasn't easy, but this story was good the 1st time or the 2nd time, at this point it does not make any sense.

He has moved on to bigger things, he has won 4 championships, let others rate other drivers or rate you. I do admit he has that inner confidence to succeed on track, but outside of it, he is lacking it, and I totally don't get why.

But anyway it's a question of feeling. I think all of us group people into categories, ones we like, ones we don't like, and for every individual we meet, we assign them to one of these categories. When I look at my categories, people with SUCH APPARENT ( i don't know him personally ) carachter traits are usually very frustrated.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:55 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.


70 % of the time? Do you have a source for these "stats" or just pulling them out of your ..........?

Here's the list of who was ahead this season - either at the finish - or before one of the Red Bull drivers had a problem:

China: Verstappen
Bahrain: Verstappen
Russia: Verstappen
Spain: Verstappen
Canada: Verstappen
Azerbaijan: Verstappen
Belgium: Verstappen
Malaysia: Verstappen
Japan: Verstappen
Mexico: Verstappen
Abu Dhabi: Ricciardo

There was no fair race comparison at:

Australia: Dan doesn't start
Monaco: Dan finished ahead but Max got stuck behind Sainz as RBR got the strategy wrong
Spain: Max gets hit by Bottas at the start
Austria: Max gets hit by Kvyat at the start
Britain: Dan doesn't participate in qualitying
Hungary: Max hits Dan at the start
Italy: Max gets hit by Massa
Singapore: Max gets hit by Ferrari's at the start
Brazil: Dan doesn't participate in qualifying
USA: Max is hit with a 10 place penalty

Out of the weekends where there was no race comparison but there was a qualifying comparison: Verstappen was quicker 6 times (Australia, Monaco, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore) while Ricciardo was quicker 2 times (Austria, USA).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?


My point is about purely using qualifying which was being used as a measure in this thread...and that Prost was massacred by Senna in qualifying yet some still consider him an equal (or even better) driver to the Brazilian.

In other words, Ricciardo is closer to Verstappen, than Prost was to Senna in outright pace (remember Senna was the new boy at McLaren when he teamed up against Prost too).

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:57 am 
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purchville wrote:
pokerman wrote:
purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?


My point is about purely using qualifying which was being used as a measure in this thread...and that Prost was massacred by Senna in qualifying yet some still consider him an equal (or even better) driver to the Brazilian.

In other words, Ricciardo is closer to Verstappen, than Prost was to Senna in outright pace (remember Senna was the new boy at McLaren when he teamed up against Prost too).

He was by no means a new boy in the sport, though. He came 3rd in the WDC in the previous year, only just behind Mansell, who was in a vastly better car


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?


Ahead 80% of the time??? That would make Prost's 4 WDCs impressive indeed! Or make Senna the ultimate "choker"!!!
;)

When they were teammates of course, Senna was normally quicker than Prost.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The rating of Verstappen against Ricciardo is ridiculous. People just completely ignore the results achieved by the drivers.

Points don't always tell the story, Verstappen has basically beat Ricciardo in a similar fashion to what Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014.

Except he hasn't really.

People need to pay attention to the results that have actually happened, not what they think might have happened or wish happened or project what might happen in future.

What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.


70 % of the time? Do you have a source for these "stats" or just pulling them out of your ..........?

Just an overview, like yourself I didn't go into the fine detail of it all to either prove it or disprove it, if it was 68% then I guess i would be wrong if we are dealing with semantics.

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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:07 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.


70 % of the time? Do you have a source for these "stats" or just pulling them out of your ..........?

Here's the list of who was ahead this season - either at the finish - or before one of the Red Bull drivers had a problem:

China: Verstappen
Bahrain: Verstappen
Russia: Verstappen
Spain: Verstappen
Canada: Verstappen
Azerbaijan: Verstappen
Belgium: Verstappen
Malaysia: Verstappen
Japan: Verstappen
Mexico: Verstappen
Abu Dhabi: Ricciardo

There was no fair race comparison at:

Australia: Dan doesn't start
Monaco: Dan finished ahead but Max got stuck behind Sainz as RBR got the strategy wrong
Spain: Max gets hit by Bottas at the start
Austria: Max gets hit by Kvyat at the start
Britain: Dan doesn't participate in qualitying
Hungary: Max hits Dan at the start
Italy: Max gets hit by Massa
Singapore: Max gets hit by Ferrari's at the start
Brazil: Dan doesn't participate in qualifying
USA: Max is hit with a 10 place penalty

Out of the weekends where there was no race comparison but there was a qualifying comparison: Verstappen was quicker 6 times (Australia, Monaco, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore) while Ricciardo was quicker 2 times (Austria, USA).

Cheers for the effort. :thumbup:

So my overall feeling of the situation is correct, we are just left with the semantics of me saying 70% of the time.

Just looking at your summary I would give Ricciardo Monaco and Italy so that would be 10 out of 13 so 77%.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 pm 
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purchville wrote:
pokerman wrote:
purchville wrote:
By the way, if you consider qualifying as the be-all-end-all measure, then please consider this:

Senna 28 - 4 Prost

...then compare Verstappen and Ricciardo again (2016-17)

Verstappen improved since 2016 also in terms of qualifying he can't be compared with Senna as of yet.

Also in terms of Senna and Prost in the races Senna tended to be in front of Prost 80% of the time so I'm not quite sure of your point?


My point is about purely using qualifying which was being used as a measure in this thread...and that Prost was massacred by Senna in qualifying yet some still consider him an equal (or even better) driver to the Brazilian.

In other words, Ricciardo is closer to Verstappen, than Prost was to Senna in outright pace (remember Senna was the new boy at McLaren when he teamed up against Prost too).

Senna had 4 years of F1 experience, he already had numerous poles and wins, how we rate Senna and Prost I guess is a matter of opinion, for me Senna was faster and had more bad luck, who left McLaren, it wasn't Senna, who left Williams, it wasn't Senna.

I look at Verstappen and Ricciardo and I see Verstappen as the faster driver as do the teams, as did the teams when it came to Senna and Prost.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sky F1 had a video where they ask Alonso to rate the RBR / Merc / Ferrari drivers.

He ordered them Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo (in that order) as Tier 1 and then Vettel, Bottas Raikkonen in Tier 2.

Ultimately, Hamilton's crown this year was fought against Vettel, it would be self diminishing if Hamilton didn't rate Vettel as one of the best, even though previously - during the RBR days and before Hamilton moved to Mercedes - Hamilton stated that Vettel wasn't even at Rosberg's level.

I personally feel Ricciardo is better than Vettel, although 2014 paints it as more one sided than it is. However Max vs Ricciardo is probably the more difficult choice to call. I think it's Ricciardo at the moment. But I think that it's all but a certainty that Max will be better when he's Ricciardo's age than Ricciardo is now. However, Ricciardo's timing has sucked, he arrived at RBR after their golden age, and as the team rebuilds a younger fresher face has arrived.

There is no doubt that Hamilton and Alonso have recognised Max as being to their generation what Schumacher was to the Senna/Prost generation. To say Hamilton doesn't rate Ricciardo is disingenuous - he's picked who he feels is the top driver from each of the major teams. Of those teams, Red Bull have the closest pairing. Max has more outright natural talent, but Ricciardo probably has the sharpest racing mind of any driver on the grid today.
It really depends where your natural biases lead you.

If it’s the video I’m thinking of I don’t think that’s quite right. He was asked who he thought his main competition for the title would be next year (in the interview im thinking of - with the pictures of all of them on the table?). So putting Hamilton, Verstappen and Ricciardo as his biggest competition could just be that he thinks Red Bull & Mercedes will build good cars, while Ferrari won’t.

It could be that he was ignoring cars and going on pure talent but while Alonso is undoubtedly bitter about Vettel I don’t think even he would rate him in the same league as Kimi.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What I see is Verstappen in front of Ricciardo 70% of the time.


70 % of the time? Do you have a source for these "stats" or just pulling them out of your ..........?

Here's the list of who was ahead this season - either at the finish - or before one of the Red Bull drivers had a problem:

China: Verstappen
Bahrain: Verstappen
Russia: Verstappen
Spain: Verstappen
Canada: Verstappen
Azerbaijan: Verstappen
Belgium: Verstappen
Malaysia: Verstappen
Japan: Verstappen
Mexico: Verstappen
Abu Dhabi: Ricciardo

There was no fair race comparison at:

Australia: Dan doesn't start
Monaco: Dan finished ahead but Max got stuck behind Sainz as RBR got the strategy wrong
Spain: Max gets hit by Bottas at the start
Austria: Max gets hit by Kvyat at the start
Britain: Dan doesn't participate in qualitying
Hungary: Max hits Dan at the start
Italy: Max gets hit by Massa
Singapore: Max gets hit by Ferrari's at the start
Brazil: Dan doesn't participate in qualifying
USA: Max is hit with a 10 place penalty

Out of the weekends where there was no race comparison but there was a qualifying comparison: Verstappen was quicker 6 times (Australia, Monaco, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore) while Ricciardo was quicker 2 times (Austria, USA).


If we can't put USA in the first column for Dan, then Mexico (Grid drop for Dan) has to go in the bottom one.

Monaco the team didn't know if the undercut or overcut was better and Max would've jumped Bottas if he matched Dan's pit stop but Horner said he didn't park in his box properly iirc. He has to take a slice of blame for the Massa hit in Italy as well for me, it sucks its got to this point but going around the outside there is relying entirely on Massa doing something he doesn't have to and not run out Max on exit if Massa can claim the apex which he did.

I think Dan did take part in quali in Brazil but he had a penalty so right column,wrong reason.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Senna had 4 years of F1 experience, he already had numerous poles and wins, how we rate Senna and Prost I guess is a matter of opinion, for me Senna was faster and had more bad luck, who left McLaren, it wasn't Senna, who left Williams, it wasn't Senna.

I look at Verstappen and Ricciardo and I see Verstappen as the faster driver as do the teams, as did the teams when it came to Senna and Prost.

Not necessarily disputing that the teams saw Senna as the faster driver, but Prost wasn't forced out of McLaren at all - he chose to leave, and McLaren would have been happy to continue with both of them. That he left has nothing to do with how highly they rated him.

The teams probably all see Verstappen as the better option to build around for the future, and they're probably not wrong: he's equal or slightly superior to Ricciardo now, and unlike Ricciardo there's a good chance he hasn't reached his potential yet. What I dispute is the margin of his advantage over Ricciardo, which I think is greatly exaggerated by Verstappen fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Senna had 4 years of F1 experience, he already had numerous poles and wins, how we rate Senna and Prost I guess is a matter of opinion, for me Senna was faster and had more bad luck, who left McLaren, it wasn't Senna, who left Williams, it wasn't Senna.

I look at Verstappen and Ricciardo and I see Verstappen as the faster driver as do the teams, as did the teams when it came to Senna and Prost.

Not necessarily disputing that the teams saw Senna as the faster driver, but Prost wasn't forced out of McLaren at all - he chose to leave, and McLaren would have been happy to continue with both of them. That he left has nothing to do with how highly they rated him.

The teams probably all see Verstappen as the better option to build around for the future, and they're probably not wrong: he's equal or slightly superior to Ricciardo now, and unlike Ricciardo there's a good chance he hasn't reached his potential yet. What I dispute is the margin of his advantage over Ricciardo, which I think is greatly exaggerated by Verstappen fans.

In a competitive situation Prost is the driver that ran away and he did that again later at Williams who didn't seem overly concerned.

I'm clearly not a Verstappen fan, I often criticise him, however just being younger wouldn't prioritise a team to put their eggs in that basket, Riccardo was often found wanting this year.

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