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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:53 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Same thing if he starts from the pit lane and drives through the field. He's got the best car so it's expected. No driver of the weekend/day, whatever. Vettel does it and he's the second coming of Senna.


You accidentally missed the thread(s) about Malaysia then.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:09 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton, again after he secured the championship is unable to secure a win to end the season. An odd pattern.
.

Very interesting isn't it. I wonder if he is gifting wins to his team mates.


His race pace has been fine, quick in Brazil and im in no doubt he was quicker in Abu Dhabi. The only thing I would question is quali but then i thought Hamilton got out qualified a few times at both places before.


I wouldn't say that he is gifting wins, but it's just that once he clenches he simply tunes out a little bit. What cost him those last 2 wins were basically failing to beat Bottas to pole, something he has done easily most of the season.


I don't see why really, he's been fighting all year to win the WDC after losing it last year. Once the job is done it must be hard to stay at that level of determination. Look at Vettel in 2014... once he didn't have a car to win races he lost his mojo big time. And if he was gifting races to his teammate he'd made sure people knew about it...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:15 pm 
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By the way who the f*ck decided that putting the 2nd DRS detection point in the middle of an overtaking zone was a good move?

There were a few instances where one driver (the best example was Wehrlein vs Magnussen) where one driver pulls off a ballsy move into the chicane at the end of the first straight, is fractionally ahead coming out of the chicane which gives the overtaken driver DRS immediately, and because he's so close out of the chicane means he can breeze past easily before the next braking zone.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton wins, he is given full credit for a fantastic performance. Anyone else wins, it is because Hamilton had mechanical problems, or something broke, or some other excuse.
Nonsense. Hamilton gets a grand chelem and people come out of the woodwork with all kinds of reasons why he isnt driver of the day or driver of the weekend. He's got the best car, he started from the front, didnt have to work, had no pressure, blah blah blah.
Same thing if he starts from the pit lane and drives through the field. He's got the best car so it's expected. No driver of the weekend/day, whatever. Vettel does it and he's the second coming of Senna.
There's always, ALWAYS an excuse to put Hamilton down. It is soooo predictable.
It's simply that those who are in the defend-at-all-costs or attack-at-all-costs corners make the most noise. Put those aside and we do, believe it or not, have a reasonably balanced forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:54 pm 
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If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished where they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:57 pm 
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lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:05 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:19 pm 
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lamo wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.

He was actually really close going down the first straight a couple of times, it was the lack or engine power that made it impossible IMO. After the stops he put Massa offline in the hairpin which allowed him to do something different and used pretty much all of his deployment on that one straight (you can see him regenerating very early on the next straight).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:31 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
By the way who the f*ck decided that putting the 2nd DRS detection point in the middle of an overtaking zone was a good move?

There were a few instances where one driver (the best example was Wehrlein vs Magnussen) where one driver pulls off a ballsy move into the chicane at the end of the first straight, is fractionally ahead coming out of the chicane which gives the overtaken driver DRS immediately, and because he's so close out of the chicane means he can breeze past easily before the next braking zone.


Yea, isn't that cool? The drivers are not handed a big plate of entitlement, each driver must do his very best in order to make any pass stick, and the fans are given lots and lots of exciting action.

No, really, I'm not trolling anyone, I think this is just great. There was more action in that section of track, and it was all great close battling where we could view immense talent and action.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.

He was actually really close going down the first straight a couple of times, it was the lack or engine power that made it impossible IMO. After the stops he put Massa offline in the hairpin which allowed him to do something different and used pretty much all of his deployment on that one straight (you can see him regenerating very early on the next straight).

Alonso was a lot quicker through S3 then lost a load of time every single lap on the straights, only to gain it back in the rest of the lap. Even with two lots of DRS and a fairly close slip stream, Massa without DRS was comfortably pulling away every lap. A similar story to to Brazil.

The only way Alonso got him in the end was to be super aggressive and smart straight after the pit stop before Massa had got his tires up to temperature.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.


He was actually really close going down the first straight a couple of times, it was the lack or engine power that made it impossible IMO. After the stops he put Massa offline in the hairpin which allowed him to do something different and used pretty much all of his deployment on that one straight (you can see him regenerating very early on the next straight).


Yes, but something ultimately not possible under normal conditions. He got him because he came out right behind him.

The two cars were also the two extremes. Williams is fast in the straight line and slow through corners (Massa topped the speed traps in qualifying) whilst Alonso was 0.5 quicker than Massa in S3 in qualifying, but still overall slower - so that is why he could get close on the start finish line immediately after S3.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:19 am 
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Might have been mentioned before but could explain some of the performance loss in the last 2 grand prixs plus obviously the engine.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 23686.html

"To compensate for the deficit, they chose very flat wings at Red Bull and then paid in the eleven corners of the last sector with almost half a second loss of time. The competition has another suspicion for the performance slump. It is believed that after the FIA ​​raid in Mexico Red Bull had to expand the suspension tricks that they thought had given them two wins and a second place. Rumor had it that Red Bull had found a way to lower the car on the straight back in the four races starting with GP Malaysia. So you could go without penalty for the top speed more downforce. "

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:30 am 
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I cannot emphasize enough what a terrible track Abu Dhahi is. It’s the worst circuit layout I’ve ever seen. Half of the corners are completely pointless.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:46 am 
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I think the only issue are the tyres.

Well, not really an issue, but put it this way :

If the tyres would be harder and would not put up with the aerodynamics, than even the car in front would move slower because it would just understeer straight on. At the same time, no tire deg would occur.

If the tyres are softer, they would cope with aerodynamics, less overtaking on the same tyres, but deg would exist.

And the 3rd point, Pirelli can supply tyres suited to more overtaking more deg, but than the whole talk would be tyres tyres tyres, and it would look like there is a "problem" with the tires. Who makes the tires ? Pirelli. To us, it would not make a difference, as we know Pirelli can make very good tyres. But to the casual viewers, it would seem Pirelli make crap tyres.

So all in all, this issue is more complicated than it seems.

The best ideea I've heard so far, is going the aero route underneath the car and make the top of the car very clean. Now that would be something to work with. I think Martin Brundle said that.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:30 am 
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If they increased the amount of mechanical grip and ground effects in relation to aerodynamic downforce then it would be easier to follow.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:52 pm 
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For everybody who dislikes DRS, this race was basically how 2005-2008 was and that was at basically every track and it was even harder to pass then too.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:17 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Ricciardo would have finished where he qualified. The top 9 would have finished were they qualified.

The only change for (top 11) position was 10/11th, Massa/Alonso - was that at the start?

No. Alonso had to work pretty hard for that pass and if memory serves it happened after the pit stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.

He was actually really close going down the first straight a couple of times, it was the lack or engine power that made it impossible IMO. After the stops he put Massa offline in the hairpin which allowed him to do something different and used pretty much all of his deployment on that one straight (you can see him regenerating very early on the next straight).

Alonso was a lot quicker through S3 then lost a load of time every single lap on the straights, only to gain it back in the rest of the lap. Even with two lots of DRS and a fairly close slip stream, Massa without DRS was comfortably pulling away every lap. A similar story to to Brazil.

The only way Alonso got him in the end was to be super aggressive and smart straight after the pit stop before Massa had got his tires up to temperature.


Japanese press said he put the car into quali mode to get the pass complete as well. Williams will be getting sick of him doing that as he did it every lap but just on Kemmel at Spa last year to stay ahead of Bottas and Massa there.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

Japanese press said he put the car into quali mode to get the pass complete as well. Williams will be getting sick of him doing that as he did it every lap but just on Kemmel at Spa last year to stay ahead of Bottas and Massa there.


No he didn't, Alonso was 1.5 seconds faster than both Williams cars through sector 2 at Spa last season, which meant that they had too great a gap to make up in the fast bits. He was also brilliant off La Source which protected him on the run down to Les Combes.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Did anyone else think Hamilton didn't seem very good at donuts after the race compared to Bottas? Sorry to sound like I'm against him but in this area, Bottas looked really good at them! All the times Hamilton attempted them, he seemed to struggle to keep going round without changing direction. Bottas could certainly to a neater job. But then I've seen him do this before and this is one thing he seems to do really well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9J0W14cN8A


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
For everybody who dislikes DRS, this race was basically how 2005-2008 was and that was at basically every track and it was even harder to pass then too.

I think it's acceptable to dislike both DRS and this race track

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:29 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Might have been mentioned before but could explain some of the performance loss in the last 2 grand prixs plus obviously the engine.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 23686.html

"To compensate for the deficit, they chose very flat wings at Red Bull and then paid in the eleven corners of the last sector with almost half a second loss of time. The competition has another suspicion for the performance slump. It is believed that after the FIA ​​raid in Mexico Red Bull had to expand the suspension tricks that they thought had given them two wins and a second place. Rumor had it that Red Bull had found a way to lower the car on the straight back in the four races starting with GP Malaysia. So you could go without penalty for the top speed more downforce. "

I heard that Red Bull might have been doing something a bit dodgy, that's a problem when ever they are doing well, I'm always thinking what rule are they bending now?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:24 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Japanese press said he put the car into quali mode to get the pass complete as well. Williams will be getting sick of him doing that as he did it every lap but just on Kemmel at Spa last year to stay ahead of Bottas and Massa there.


No he didn't, Alonso was 1.5 seconds faster than both Williams cars through sector 2 at Spa last season, which meant that they had too great a gap to make up in the fast bits. He was also brilliant off La Source which protected him on the run down to Les Combes.


Yes but he was still using the quali mode to help on Kemmel for the last few laps (rather than every lap like I originally thought tbf). It was a new mode brought for that race worth about 15bhp.

Some info in translated race reports here.. http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20343 ... -v/page-36

Quote:
Since Alonso's PU was brand new for the race, they could use quali mode in race as well. You want to avoid using quali mode as it causes extra loads on PU, but Honda gave Alonso permission to use quali mode, exclusively at Kemmel straight, for the final few laps of the race in order to defend the 7th position (info in the article)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:29 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
For everybody who dislikes DRS, this race was basically how 2005-2008 was and that was at basically every track and it was even harder to pass then too.

I think it's acceptable to dislike both DRS and this race track


Indeed, I did not suggest otherwise. My point is, without DRS a lot of races/tracks would play out exactly like AD with these 2017 cars. So when people say, get rid of DRS, I don't think they appreciate that the majority of races will play out like AD.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:17 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton, again after he secured the championship is unable to secure a win to end the season. An odd pattern.
.

Very interesting isn't it. I wonder if he is gifting wins to his team mates.


His race pace has been fine, quick in Brazil and im in no doubt he was quicker in Abu Dhabi. The only thing I would question is quali but then i thought Hamilton got out qualified a few times at both places before.


I wouldn't say that he is gifting wins, but it's just that once he clenches he simply tunes out a little bit. What cost him those last 2 wins were basically failing to beat Bottas to pole, something he has done easily most of the season.


I don't see why really, he's been fighting all year to win the WDC after losing it last year. Once the job is done it must be hard to stay at that level of determination. Look at Vettel in 2014... once he didn't have a car to win races he lost his mojo big time. And if he was gifting races to his teammate he'd made sure people knew about it...


Yeah...but Vettel clinched early in 2013 and that still didn't prevent him from putting the hammer down for the final races. In 2014, he didn't have the best car and he ran into a very tough teammate, but I don't think he was off in 2014, he had some really good drives.

And now we have Hamilton admitting that he wasn't 100%:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/partying-h ... -per-cent/

It is becoming a trend, 2015 all over again...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHCqUc77g2I

Found it now. He passed him as Massa came out of the pits. Under normal racing conditions he never would have been able to be that close due to the dirty air through S3.

He was actually really close going down the first straight a couple of times, it was the lack or engine power that made it impossible IMO. After the stops he put Massa offline in the hairpin which allowed him to do something different and used pretty much all of his deployment on that one straight (you can see him regenerating very early on the next straight).

Alonso was a lot quicker through S3 then lost a load of time every single lap on the straights, only to gain it back in the rest of the lap. Even with two lots of DRS and a fairly close slip stream, Massa without DRS was comfortably pulling away every lap. A similar story to to Brazil.

The only way Alonso got him in the end was to be super aggressive and smart straight after the pit stop before Massa had got his tires up to temperature.


Japanese press said he put the car into quali mode to get the pass complete as well. Williams will be getting sick of him doing that as he did it every lap but just on Kemmel at Spa last year to stay ahead of Bottas and Massa there.

Also if I'm not mistaken Alonso almost overtakes Massa just before the DRS detection, but then actually lifts a fraction before it to make sure he crosses it after him and gets DRS:
https://youtu.be/gFHcCYdLD6k?t=3m30s

Seems passing a Mercedes engined car with a Honda at Abu Dhabi is a bit like spinning plates at 200MPH. It was a pretty big achievement all considered.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:28 am 
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lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
For everybody who dislikes DRS, this race was basically how 2005-2008 was and that was at basically every track and it was even harder to pass then too.

I think it's acceptable to dislike both DRS and this race track


Indeed, I did not suggest otherwise. My point is, without DRS a lot of races/tracks would play out exactly like AD with these 2017 cars. So when people say, get rid of DRS, I don't think they appreciate that the majority of races will play out like AD.

A problem needed fixing and DRS was the crap solution. They took the lazy option

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:07 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I cannot emphasize enough what a terrible track Abu Dhahi is. It’s the worst circuit layout I’ve ever seen. Half of the corners are completely pointless.


Agree one million percent. I was going to make a thread about it, but the heck with it. I knew someone in here felt the same. It's beyond horrible.

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