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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:40 am 
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mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
Even without a problem, on a track like Silverstone were you could overtake. Hamilton still had a good chance to win.


Between 2014 and 2016, how many on-track overtakes were there between Merc drivers in the dry?


2015/16 none once they changed the nose rules. Actually Austria 2016

2014, Hamilton overtook Rosberg in Bahrain, Japan (wet), Canada and USA.

Bahrain, Nico overtook Lewis and also could have overtaken him in Spa too. They could overtake one another in 2014 at some tracks and Silverstone was one of the best for it.

Hamilton was always faster in the races and usually found a way by. Brazil and Austria are the two races he couldn't get by when quicker. Austria he very nearly managed it when Nico had a lock up. Brazil he also did enough to pass him by over cutting him and would have taken the lead if he didn't spin.

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:52 am 
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Thanks for the info, genuinely wasn't aware :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:24 pm 
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mds wrote:
Thanks for the info, genuinely wasn't aware :thumbup:


Mercedes had some odd rules about strategy. They weren't allowed to run different strategy after Bahrain, unless a driver was doing a comeback drive which was Hamilton 4 times. Hungary, Austria, Silverstone and Germany.

This is why we had some odd occasions like Hungary 2014, when Hamilton wasn't allowed to stop for fresh tyres when Nico was at the end even though he was in front of him. As well as, Toto saying after Austria 2014 that Hamilton did not have a chance to win the race as he started 9th (even though after lap 3, Hamilton was 4th and Rosberg 3rd).

This allowed Hamilton to run an alternative strategy in Britain as he started 9th with Nico on pole and Mercedes strategy was rigid in that he would be allowed to do an alternative because of his qually position even though they were close and running 1-2 by lap 4. He was 1 stopping and Nico was going to 2 stop (just remembered that) in the end Hamilton switch to a 2 stop because he had a free pit stop. But Lewis did the first half of the race on 1 set of tyres.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:52 pm 
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mds wrote:
Thanks for the info, genuinely wasn't aware :thumbup:

Yeah you could actually overtake with the 2014 cars before they changed the nose rules because they looked ugly, aesthetics ruling over functionality.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:05 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Who knows the gap between the pair and it would obviously be advantage to whoever was already at the team the other joined which I think might be enough to sway it for the first season at least.

It would likely be back to who is ahead at turn 1 wins the race too.

Vettel would likely beat Hamilton at Singapore, Japan and Brazil. Hamilton likely beat Vettel at Silverstone and Germany and possibly in the wet too (although that is debatable).

The rest is highly debatable. I think there could easily be +/- 0.250 between them on any given weekend.

What we need is Danny Ric to join Hamilton or rejoin Vettel at Ferrari to get a bigger insight into how good this pair are. If Max continues to beat DR and then DR joins Ferrari and matches/beats SV again, then without doubt SV isn't a top driver. SV would also get the opportunity to banish 2014 as a freak year and secure his status as a top tier driver and all time great who had 1 hiccup in a transition year if he beat DR at Ferrari.


So if Dan destroys Hamilton then Max is the best ever, and if he gets destroyed by Ham then Vet is terrible! 8O

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.


Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.


Because...

A) It will never happen.

B) It will never happen.

C) Someone will bring up some tenuous nonsense that because when they were in GP2 Hamilton was faster than Tony Bennet, who was once teammate with Geoff Bridges, who once raced Vettel in a go-kart and was half a second a lap faster so that absolutely PROVES that Hamilton would be at least 0.75 a lap quicker than Vettel.

D) Mostly C.

What would be really funny is if say, they were team-mates and the car really suited one or the other and the other one hated it, oh the forum would be pulling it's hair out. Or even better, same scenario but Kimi in a car he liked paired with Hamilton...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:52 pm 
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lamo wrote:
2014, Hamilton overtook Rosberg in Bahrain, Japan (wet), Canada and USA.

In Canada, Hamilton jumped Rosberg in the pits. He didn't overtake him on track.

In Bahrain, Hamilton re-passed Rosberg who initially past him, not sure if that counts either.

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Bahrain, Nico overtook Lewis and also could have overtaken him in Spa too. They could overtake one another in 2014 at some tracks and Silverstone was one of the best for it.

I disagree. There are no big braking zones and long DRS straights at Silverstone like there is at Austin. Also, Silverstone was dry, so Hamiltons advantage was about 0.3 sec/lap rather than 1.0 sec/lap it was in the rain at Suzuka.

I doubt Hamilton would have past Rosberg in Silverstone. It would have been like Austria, where Hamilton was a bit quicker but track position was king.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:39 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
2014, Hamilton overtook Rosberg in Bahrain, Japan (wet), Canada and USA.

In Canada, Hamilton jumped Rosberg in the pits. He didn't overtake him on track.

In Bahrain, Hamilton re-passed Rosberg who initially past him, not sure if that counts either.

Quote:
Bahrain, Nico overtook Lewis and also could have overtaken him in Spa too. They could overtake one another in 2014 at some tracks and Silverstone was one of the best for it.

I disagree. There are no big braking zones and long DRS straights at Silverstone like there is at Austin. Also, Silverstone was dry, so Hamiltons advantage was about 0.3 sec/lap rather than 1.0 sec/lap it was in the rain at Suzuka.

I doubt Hamilton would have past Rosberg in Silverstone. It would have been like Austria, where Hamilton was a bit quicker but track position was king.


I might be wrong but I think I remember Hamilton passing Rosberg at the hairpin in Canada?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Hamilton jumps Rosberg in the pits (Nico did have a slow 4.6 second pit stop). Hamilton's brakes failed at the hairpin of his outlap, this lets Rosberg through. Then Hamilton attacks Rosberg into the chicane but Rosberg defends the inside line and Hamilton goes wide again at the chicane (because his brakes were cooked), then Hamilton retires on the following lap.

No actual overtake took place in the race.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton jumps Rosberg in the pits (Nico did have a slow 4.6 second pit stop). Hamilton's brakes failed at the hairpin of his outlap, this lets Rosberg through. Then Hamilton attacks Rosberg into the chicane but Rosberg defends the inside line and Hamilton goes wide again at the chicane (because his brakes were cooked), then Hamilton retires on the following lap.

No actual overtake took place in the race.



Ahhh that's why I remember something going on at the hairpin.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
When he actually got a team mate who threatened him - Ricciardo - just how much stuff did he pull, exactly? Not much, according to Ricciardo himself


Threatened? Ricciardo beat him fairly comfortably!

Not many things that Vettel could pull when the other driver is better than you in every measurable way.


Surely you are exaggerating. Vettel had the lion's share of bad reliability that year, and had to change his driving style (he was very, very, dependant on downforce and the 2014 regulations reduced it), being arguably the most used to the previous regulations. He had to fight against dominating Mercedes with an underpowered car and suffer DNF when he could score great results.

Basically, this Ricciardo-Vettel situation is down to how a driver can handle a car that does not suit him, and we already know that Vettel is not the kind of guy at ease in this kind of situation, whereas Ricciardo is the opposite. To be honest, I am quite sure that if they were to drive the same car (and if it suits both of them), Vettel would beat Daniel by a fair margin.


This narrative would perhaps make sense if Vettel continued to struggle during that era (i.e. if he continued to struggle at Ferrari in 2015 and 2016).


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