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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:17 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Do you have a website that shows those statistics - I am surprised the average gap is so low for 2016. Hamilton beat him nearly 50% of the Q3's they both made by 0.3+

In fact the only qualifying sessions, Nico legitimately beat Hamilton were Germany and Japan. He also did in Singapore but Hamilton missed P2 and P3. Hungary he ran the yellow flags were already 0.3 down on Hamilton and Monaco - Hamilton got one really disjointed run after breaking down in the pit lane exit. Also Baku too, after Hamilton crashed out in Q2.

Scroll down to Marklar's post here.

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20471 ... try7791025

Also note that Marklar's analysis has in fact a slight Hamilton bias. For instance, he doesn't count Silverstone 2014 where Hamilton failed to set a representative laptime (his own fault), but he counts China 2014 where Rosberg was on course to improve by 1 second before spinning. In his 2013 analysis, he didn't include Abu Dhabi where Hamilton supposedly spun because of a car failure, but he included Canada where Rosberg had no KERS.

Yes, there are some cases like Singapore 2016 where Hamilton didn't get proper practice, but Rosberg didn't get proper practice at Silverstone 2016 either and yet it counts. Hamilton was hampered by yellow flags at Hungary 2016, but Rosberg was much quicker at Belgium 2013 yet hampered by poor timing and that also counts. Yellow flags and poor timing are a part of qualifying. Mechanical problems are excluded.

Oh so there are not your own figures.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Depends who ruffles who's feathers the most.

Hamilton when he is high on confidence and riding on the wave, is a very hard man to beat. However, reliability, luck and sporting circumstance can still influence him into dips where the world is against him, and go on a run of 5-6 races of up and down performances. Yes the persecution complex is not as bad as it once was, but it still rears its head from time to time. Although with Hamilton that can also go the other way, as again if/when he regains focus and gets the bit between the teeth, he is perfectly capable of going on a run of 3-4 races where he is brilliant.

Vettel I'm unsure about. I think if he gets ahead, and ahead early, he can stay ahead. However, equally, I think you could beat him early and he would just become frustrated and down beat (like Ricciardo at Red Bull). For the 9 seasons Vettel has had a top seat, he's had a strong team mate once - and it clearly bothered him.

I also think Vettel is the more likely of the two to win the internal F1 politics game.

It could be a modern day Prost/Senna type affair.

I thought this Vettel always wins when he gets ahead got somewhat shot down this year?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:28 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There's not much wrong with your data compilation between Hamilton and Rosberg, but the last part is simply only your opinion.

It's indeed my opinion, I think that Vettel > Rosberg, but there's no way to know how Vettel would stack up against Hamilton/Rosberg unless they became teammates.

There were some rumours that Vettel had a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 but then extended for Ferrari when the SF70H turned out to be much better than he expected.

I heard it was for 2019 and it was dependent on Hamilton not being around, for 2018 he was after a 1 year contract with Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:29 am 
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cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

That worked for Rosberg. :)

Don't forget the sabotage of Hamilton's engines. :twisted:

Well I wouldn't go that far but the unreliability certainly helped.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

That worked for Rosberg. :)

Don't forget the sabotage of Hamilton's engines. :twisted:

Well I wouldn't go that far but the unreliability certainly helped.

All good, more of a reference to YouTube comments. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:46 am 
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cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

That worked for Rosberg. :)

Don't forget the sabotage of Hamilton's engines. :twisted:

Well I wouldn't go that far but the unreliability certainly helped.

All good, more of a reference to YouTube comments. :thumbup:

Which seems to be full of uncensored drivel.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:52 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel usually only wins if he gets the leads on the first lap. So for me it would be down to qualifying and starts. So who is best at qualifying and who is best at starts? Same car remember!

Really? Because the first time he won this year while leading from the first lap was his 4th win of the year! He's won more races this year when he wasn't in the lead on lap one than when he was. You may as well argue that Hamilton usually only wins when he gets pole, as he's only had one race this year where he's not won from pole - in Singapore - and even then all his rivals managed to neatly take themselves out. But both of those statements do these drivers a disservice


Well thats as clear as mud!

I wasn't simply referring to this year but historically, but without going through the race results I may be wrong. Vettel does seem desperate to get to the front early which you clearly agree with!

Vettel won all 9 races where he started from pole in 2013
Vettel was beaten 0-3 by Ricciardo in 2014 With no poles.

I think he's got used to seeing a clear track as his route to success that is why he has so many Lap 1 accidents. You may not agree this year but you yourself see a pattern. I'm suggesting why this pattern might be there.

The post below is taken from a recent thread.

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surprised more is not being made of this. I think Vettel caused another first corner accident on Sunday, and by again trying to sweep across to the apex ignoring the possibility of someone being on his inside.

Quote from Hulk - "It’s really disappointing to have another first lap retirement. I just ran out of space going into turn one because I got sandwiched between Valtteri on my left and Sebastian on the right.
Sebastian turned in quite aggressively, made contact with me, and that pushed me into Valtteri. I think it could have been avoided if Sebastian had given us a bit more space."

Yes, his opening laps are starting to follow a bit of a pattern...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:41 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Do you have a website that shows those statistics - I am surprised the average gap is so low for 2016. Hamilton beat him nearly 50% of the Q3's they both made by 0.3+

In fact the only qualifying sessions, Nico legitimately beat Hamilton were Germany and Japan. He also did in Singapore but Hamilton missed P2 and P3. Hungary he ran the yellow flags were already 0.3 down on Hamilton and Monaco - Hamilton got one really disjointed run after breaking down in the pit lane exit. Also Baku too, after Hamilton crashed out in Q2.

Scroll down to Marklar's post here.

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20471 ... try7791025

Also note that Marklar's analysis has in fact a slight Hamilton bias. For instance, he doesn't count Silverstone 2014 where Hamilton failed to set a representative laptime (his own fault), but he counts China 2014 where Rosberg was on course to improve by 1 second before spinning. In his 2013 analysis, he didn't include Abu Dhabi where Hamilton supposedly spun because of a car failure, but he included Canada where Rosberg had no KERS.

Yes, there are some cases like Singapore 2016 where Hamilton didn't get proper practice, but Rosberg didn't get proper practice at Silverstone 2016 either and yet it counts. Hamilton was hampered by yellow flags at Hungary 2016, but Rosberg was much quicker at Belgium 2013 yet hampered by poor timing and that also counts. Yellow flags and poor timing are a part of qualifying. Mechanical problems are excluded.


Thanks,

Specifically on 2016 that flatters Rosberg quite heavily, he beat Hamilton by 0.704 in Singapore. Ham was fastest in P1 in daylight (a session deemed useless by the teams) but never ran in P2 and P3 in the darkness and street circuits you need to build your time up over the sessions. Other than that Nico beat him by 0.013 in Japan and 0.100 in Germany. Even when Hamilton crashed in Baku he was on a lap already 0.4 up on Nico's fastest lap he set in Q2 or Q3. Nico just wasn't quick over 1 lap in 2016, all season. He beat Hamilton narrowly on his weakest track - Japan other than that his only stand out was his performance in Germany. Tracks he usually beat Lewis on - Austria, Brazil, Bahrain, AD he was still behind in 2016.

Singapore really throws the average out, I think it would be closer to 0.250 without that Hungary (yellow flag) and Monaco (1 disjointed run with heavy car for Hamilton). Yes Nico has similar at Silverstone but he still ran P1 and P3 and obviously unlike Singapore all sessions are the same.

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Last edited by lamo on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:55 am 
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slide wrote:
Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented


Yes, yes, yes!!! This!!

We know from the Vettel/Webber rivalry the kind of stuff Vettel pulls when he is matched with a team mate who is as fast or nearly as fast as he is. Would predict that Vettel would revert to some of the douchebaggery that Schuey used to use. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:34 am 
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So much baloney....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:15 am 
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Blake wrote:
So much baloney....

Out of curiosity, which part do you think is false? I think it's undeniable that Vettel has been making some questionable and highly aggressive first lap moves - the 'Vettel Chop' - for some time now, at least since midway through last year (he cost Ferrari several good results with the move last year, most notably perhaps at Spa). I think this year has also made it clear that Vettel does have some issues with his self-control, if Mexico last year didn't already make that clear enough.

I will agree that the claim he can only win from pole is baloney, however. Every driver would like to win every race from pole given a chance, as Verstappen was honest enough to admit recently! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:56 am 
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17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:06 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
slide wrote:
Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented


Yes, yes, yes!!! This!!

We know from the Vettel/Webber rivalry the kind of stuff Vettel pulls when he is matched with a team mate who is as fast or nearly as fast as he is. Would predict that Vettel would revert to some of the douchebaggery that Schuey used to use. :lol:


What happened between the Vettel and Webber ? Based on championship points from 2009 to 2014, Webber was far from being as fast as Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:30 am 
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Fantaribo wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
slide wrote:
Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented


Yes, yes, yes!!! This!!

We know from the Vettel/Webber rivalry the kind of stuff Vettel pulls when he is matched with a team mate who is as fast or nearly as fast as he is. Would predict that Vettel would revert to some of the douchebaggery that Schuey used to use. :lol:


What happened between the Vettel and Webber ? Based on championship points from 2009 to 2014, Webber was far from being as fast as Vettel.

Yes, I'd like to know that as well. Seems being a better driver is now classified as "pulling stuff."


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
slide wrote:
Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented


Yes, yes, yes!!! This!!

We know from the Vettel/Webber rivalry the kind of stuff Vettel pulls when he is matched with a team mate who is as fast or nearly as fast as he is. Would predict that Vettel would revert to some of the douchebaggery that Schuey used to use. :lol:


What happened between the Vettel and Webber ? Based on championship points from 2009 to 2014, Webber was far from being as fast as Vettel.

Yes, I'd like to know that as well. Seems being a better driver is now classified as "pulling stuff."


I can take an educated guess of what will be said:
- Multi21!
> But Silverstone '11!
- Webber didn't actually pass!
> He tried though so it's the same!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:14 am 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
slide wrote:
Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented


Yes, yes, yes!!! This!!

We know from the Vettel/Webber rivalry the kind of stuff Vettel pulls when he is matched with a team mate who is as fast or nearly as fast as he is. Would predict that Vettel would revert to some of the douchebaggery that Schuey used to use. :lol:


What happened between the Vettel and Webber ? Based on championship points from 2009 to 2014, Webber was far from being as fast as Vettel.

Yes, I'd like to know that as well. Seems being a better driver is now classified as "pulling stuff."


I can take an educated guess of what will be said:
- Multi21!
> But Silverstone '11!
- Webber didn't actually pass!
> He tried though so it's the same!


Yea, this is what I expected to be said, that is why I'm asking if he meant something else than multi 21. I know the Vettel/Webber relationship was rough, but Vettel did not need to pull any kind of stuff to dominate Mark.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:34 am 
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Kev627 wrote:
If next season Hamilton and Vettel were team mates how would the season pan out? Which circuits would suit either driver better and on the neutral circuits how could the drivers try to maximise their chances of victory?


I'd love to see it. I think it would go in the same way as Nico/Lewis. Where one driver makes the smallest mistake and the other takes the win. Both drivers make mistakes, both can give in to pressure, both can race hard.

I get the feeling it will be closer - similar to 2007 with Lewis/Alonso where 1 point separates them.

I'd love to see it not just for being an F1 fan but because the best challenging team mate Vettel has had - was Ric. And we know what happened after that season.

Ferrari though.. don't do things like that. Merc would.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:38 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Do you have a website that shows those statistics - I am surprised the average gap is so low for 2016. Hamilton beat him nearly 50% of the Q3's they both made by 0.3+

In fact the only qualifying sessions, Nico legitimately beat Hamilton were Germany and Japan. He also did in Singapore but Hamilton missed P2 and P3. Hungary he ran the yellow flags were already 0.3 down on Hamilton and Monaco - Hamilton got one really disjointed run after breaking down in the pit lane exit. Also Baku too, after Hamilton crashed out in Q2.

Scroll down to Marklar's post here.

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20471 ... try7791025

Also note that Marklar's analysis has in fact a slight Hamilton bias. For instance, he doesn't count Silverstone 2014 where Hamilton failed to set a representative laptime (his own fault), but he counts China 2014 where Rosberg was on course to improve by 1 second before spinning.


Just picking this back up, no directed at you specifically KingV but shows the problems with season averages. Marklar won't include Monza in this years analysis too I am sure.

Rosberg out qualified Hamilton by 3.5 seconds at Silverstone in a pretty special circumstances. That would completely throw off the average, if Hamilton had out qualified Rosberg by 0.210 in every single one of the other 17 races that year there average would be equal, even though Hamilton beat him 17-1 in qualifying. That is why season averages are nonsense really, they are completely thrown out by anomalies.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
mds wrote:
I can take an educated guess of what will be said:
- Multi21!
> But Silverstone '11!
- Webber didn't actually pass!
> He tried though so it's the same!


Yea, this is what I expected to be said, that is why I'm asking if he meant something else than multi 21. I know the Vettel/Webber relationship was rough, but Vettel did not need to pull any kind of stuff to dominate Mark.


Japanese Grand Prix, 2007 - "It’s kids isn’t it? Kids with not enough experience doing a good job and then they f**k it all up," were Webber’s colourful words moments after Toro Rosso newcomer Vettel ended his race at the Fuji Speedway

Turkish Grand Prix, 2010 - The pair came to blows when they collided during a battle for the lead on Lap 39, leaving Vettel out on the spot and Webber with front wing damage.

British Grand Prix, 2011 - Having claimed pole position, Webber was eager to make it two from two at Silverstone in 2011. Despite losing out to Vettel on a wet track at the start, he had the pace to close back in when the conditions improved and applied pressure in the closing stages. A battle for second place ensued, with Webber ignoring repeated calls to 'maintain the gap'. He ultimately finished third, but admitted to ignoring team orders and increased the tension between the pair.

Malaysian Grand Prix, 2013 - Yes the infamous "Multi 21"

I agree that Seb should not have needed any of the petty stuff to dominate Mark Webber. Yet his history on track is just this kind of stuff. Some have said that he suffers from D-ring disease. When the chin strap is pulled tight the blood flow to his brain is cut off.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Japanese Grand Prix, 2007 - "It’s kids isn’t it? Kids with not enough experience doing a good job and then they f**k it all up," were Webber’s colourful words moments after Toro Rosso newcomer Vettel ended his race at the Fuji Speedway

Turkish Grand Prix, 2010 - The pair came to blows when they collided during a battle for the lead on Lap 39, leaving Vettel out on the spot and Webber with front wing damage.

British Grand Prix, 2011 - Having claimed pole position, Webber was eager to make it two from two at Silverstone in 2011. Despite losing out to Vettel on a wet track at the start, he had the pace to close back in when the conditions improved and applied pressure in the closing stages. A battle for second place ensued, with Webber ignoring repeated calls to 'maintain the gap'. He ultimately finished third, but admitted to ignoring team orders and increased the tension between the pair.

Malaysian Grand Prix, 2013 - Yes the infamous "Multi 21"

I agree that Seb should not have needed any of the petty stuff to dominate Mark Webber. Yet his history on track is just this kind of stuff. Some have said that he suffers from D-ring disease. When the chin strap is pulled tight the blood flow to his brain is cut off.


But the only even remotely "petty" thing here would be multi 21, and Webber has the Silverstone '11 counterpart to this.
Turkey was an error, nothing to do with playing games or being petty - Japan likewise.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
mds wrote:
I can take an educated guess of what will be said:
- Multi21!
> But Silverstone '11!
- Webber didn't actually pass!
> He tried though so it's the same!


Yea, this is what I expected to be said, that is why I'm asking if he meant something else than multi 21. I know the Vettel/Webber relationship was rough, but Vettel did not need to pull any kind of stuff to dominate Mark.


Japanese Grand Prix, 2007 - "It’s kids isn’t it? Kids with not enough experience doing a good job and then they f**k it all up," were Webber’s colourful words moments after Toro Rosso newcomer Vettel ended his race at the Fuji Speedway

Turkish Grand Prix, 2010 - The pair came to blows when they collided during a battle for the lead on Lap 39, leaving Vettel out on the spot and Webber with front wing damage.

British Grand Prix, 2011 - Having claimed pole position, Webber was eager to make it two from two at Silverstone in 2011. Despite losing out to Vettel on a wet track at the start, he had the pace to close back in when the conditions improved and applied pressure in the closing stages. A battle for second place ensued, with Webber ignoring repeated calls to 'maintain the gap'. He ultimately finished third, but admitted to ignoring team orders and increased the tension between the pair.

Malaysian Grand Prix, 2013 - Yes the infamous "Multi 21"

I agree that Seb should not have needed any of the petty stuff to dominate Mark Webber. Yet his history on track is just this kind of stuff. Some have said that he suffers from D-ring disease. When the chin strap is pulled tight the blood flow to his brain is cut off.

Not sure how much of that ties in with Vettel "pulling stuff" when he has a fast team mate. In 2007 Vettel and Webber were simply competitors. In 2011, as you've described it it was Webber who was the guilty party. Turkey 2010 is perhaps controversial, but there were two parties there and Webber again wasn't completely innocent, as he himself admits:

but it was pretty much his corner, well, not his corner but his situation because he was on the inside, but I just stayed on the inside, tight, to make sure that he was still staying on the dirty stuff

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/ ... -red-bull/

Which leaves Multi-21 and, while I think Vettel was definitely wrong that day, it was the culmination of existing bad blood between the drivers and he'd already pretty much established himself as out of mark's league by then. I don't think that's any kind of evidence that he "pulls stuff" when faced with a fast team mate. When he actually got a team mate who threatened him - Ricciardo - just how much stuff did he pull, exactly? Not much, according to Ricciardo himself


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:23 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.

Don't think he needs to, in all fairness. If you look back you'll see he was commenting on the claim that Vettel usually only wins from leading the first lap


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:45 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.

I will when someone in this thread claims that Hamilton doesn't win when not on pole position.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:31 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.

I will when someone in this thread claims that Hamilton doesn't win when not on pole position.


HAMILTON DOESN'T WIN WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE POLE ............ :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Poker wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.

I will when someone in this thread claims that Hamilton doesn't win when not on pole position.


HAMILTON DOESN'T WIN WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE POLE ............ :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
OK - from Wiki: 62 F1 wins, 40 of which were from pole. Or... 22 wins not from pole.
Edit: comparing with Vettel's stats, they have a very similar percentage of wins not from pole (slightly - less than 1% - in Vettel's favour).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:43 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
17 out of Vettel's 47 wins have came not from pole position, and 8 of those times it was Hamilton on pole, so there's that...

Now, do the amounts for Hamilton if you want to actually present a valid and balanced point.

I suppose the relevant piece of information would be how many times Hamilton has won from a Vettel pole, since that was the only way Hamilton was brought up in the post.

2017 - 1 (Singapore)
2012 - 2 (Canada, United States)
2011 - 2 (China, Abu Dhabi)

Total: 5 (races marked in red were inherited wins due to a Vettel DNF)

Considering Hamilton's greater number of poles compared to Vettel, that's probably a similar percentage. Unsurprisingly.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
When he actually got a team mate who threatened him - Ricciardo - just how much stuff did he pull, exactly? Not much, according to Ricciardo himself


Threatened? Ricciardo beat him fairly comfortably!

Not many things that Vettel could pull when the other driver is better than you in every measurable way.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 pm 
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mds wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Japanese Grand Prix, 2007 - "It’s kids isn’t it? Kids with not enough experience doing a good job and then they f**k it all up," were Webber’s colourful words moments after Toro Rosso newcomer Vettel ended his race at the Fuji Speedway

Turkish Grand Prix, 2010 - The pair came to blows when they collided during a battle for the lead on Lap 39, leaving Vettel out on the spot and Webber with front wing damage.

British Grand Prix, 2011 - Having claimed pole position, Webber was eager to make it two from two at Silverstone in 2011. Despite losing out to Vettel on a wet track at the start, he had the pace to close back in when the conditions improved and applied pressure in the closing stages. A battle for second place ensued, with Webber ignoring repeated calls to 'maintain the gap'. He ultimately finished third, but admitted to ignoring team orders and increased the tension between the pair.

Malaysian Grand Prix, 2013 - Yes the infamous "Multi 21"

I agree that Seb should not have needed any of the petty stuff to dominate Mark Webber. Yet his history on track is just this kind of stuff. Some have said that he suffers from D-ring disease. When the chin strap is pulled tight the blood flow to his brain is cut off.


But the only even remotely "petty" thing here would be multi 21, and Webber has the Silverstone '11 counterpart to this.
Turkey was an error, nothing to do with playing games or being petty - Japan likewise.


The gestures and blaming of Webber after Turkey 2010 was certainly not wise.

and let's not forget "HOW THE F IS MARK IN FRONT NOW? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?"


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:33 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
When he actually got a team mate who threatened him - Ricciardo - just how much stuff did he pull, exactly? Not much, according to Ricciardo himself


Threatened? Ricciardo beat him fairly comfortably!

Not many things that Vettel could pull when the other driver is better than you in every measurable way.

which just underlines my point...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
2017 - 1 (Singapore)
2012 - 2 (Canada, United States)
2011 - 2 (China, Abu Dhabi)

Total: 5 (races marked in red were inherited wins due to a Vettel DNF)

Considering Hamilton's greater number of poles compared to Vettel, that's probably a similar percentage. Unsurprisingly.

Hamilton has won 10% of the races where Vettel started from pole position, while Vettel has won 11% of the races that Hamilton started from pole.

Hamilton has won 35% of his races not from pole position, while Vettel has won 36% of his races not from pole.

Interesting how close the statistics are, and how they actually slightly favour Vettel. Judging by the posts on this thread, you'd think that Hamilton has some kind of Rosberg-level advantage over Vettel at racecraft.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:58 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Judging by the posts on this thread, you'd think that Hamilton has some kind of Rosberg-level advantage over Vettel at racecraft.

For comparison, here's Rosberg's stat sheet:

2016 - 3 (Australia, Bahrain, Italy)
2015 - 2 (Monaco, Austria)
2014 - 1 (Australia)
2013 - 1 (Britain)

Total: 7 (technically none inherited by DNF, although a strong case could be made for Australia 2014, and Britain 2013 was also inherited by mechanical misfortune)

Rosberg won almost as many of Lewis' poles as Vettel. Lewis, in return:

2016 - 2 (Hungary, Germany)
2015 - 3 (Japan, Russia, United States)
2014 - 5 (Bahrain, Britain, Japan, United States, Abu Dhabi)

Total: 10 (one inherited by DNF)

Noticeably higher number, much higher percentage: 33% of all Nico's poles were won by Lewis, while he himself only won 50% of them!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:42 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
The gestures and blaming of Webber after Turkey 2010 was certainly not wise.

and let's not forget "HOW THE F IS MARK IN FRONT NOW? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?"


A driver that gets worked up when things are not going like they should. So unique, seldomly seen in F1 history.

Nothing to do with "pulling stunts" though.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:17 am 
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The winning from pole stat is a bit misleading, it should be if they lead after lap 1. I know the data is harder to get but if your hypothesis is they can only win from the front then there is no difference between starting P2 and taking the lead on lap 1 off the line

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Judging by the posts on this thread, you'd think that Hamilton has some kind of Rosberg-level advantage over Vettel at racecraft.

For comparison, here's Rosberg's stat sheet:

2016 - 3 (Australia, Bahrain, Italy)
2015 - 2 (Monaco, Austria)
2014 - 1 (Australia)
2013 - 1 (Britain)

Total: 7 (technically none inherited by DNF, although a strong case could be made for Australia 2014, and Britain 2013 was also inherited by mechanical misfortune)

Rosberg won almost as many of Lewis' poles as Vettel. Lewis, in return:

2016 - 2 (Hungary, Germany)
2015 - 3 (Japan, Russia, United States)
2014 - 5 (Bahrain, Britain, Japan, United States, Abu Dhabi)

Total: 10 (one inherited by DNF)

Noticeably higher number, much higher percentage: 33% of all Nico's poles were won by Lewis, while he himself only won 50% of them!


Australia 14, Hamilton had 5 cylinders from the warm up lap. Britain 2013 and Monaco 2015 were also inherited by Nico.

Hamilton also inherited GB 2014 although he was catching Nico at 0.5 per lap and might have won anyway

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:59 am 
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lamo wrote:
Hamilton also inherited GB 2014 although he was catching Nico at 0.5 per lap and might have won anyway

Nico's gearbox problem occurred gradually. From lap 4 to lap 10 he was maintaining the gap to Lewis at around 5.5 seconds. Then from lap 11 onward he suddenly began losing 0.5 seconds/lap, then a full second/lap, and then kept getting slower and slower until he retired.

I think Lewis gained Britain 2014 and Russia 2015 thanks to Nico retiring from the lead. Nico gained Britain 2013, Australia 2014, and Monaco 2015.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:01 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
When he actually got a team mate who threatened him - Ricciardo - just how much stuff did he pull, exactly? Not much, according to Ricciardo himself


Threatened? Ricciardo beat him fairly comfortably!

Not many things that Vettel could pull when the other driver is better than you in every measurable way.


Surely you are exaggerating. Vettel had the lion's share of bad reliability that year, and had to change his driving style (he was very, very, dependant on downforce and the 2014 regulations reduced it), being arguably the most used to the previous regulations. He had to fight against dominating Mercedes with an underpowered car and suffer DNF when he could score great results.

Basically, this Ricciardo-Vettel situation is down to how a driver can handle a car that does not suit him, and we already know that Vettel is not the kind of guy at ease in this kind of situation, whereas Ricciardo is the opposite. To be honest, I am quite sure that if they were to drive the same car (and if it suits both of them), Vettel would beat Daniel by a fair margin.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:04 am 
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lamo wrote:
The winning from pole stat is a bit misleading, it should be if they lead after lap 1. I know the data is harder to get but if your hypothesis is they can only win from the front then there is no difference between starting P2 and taking the lead on lap 1 off the line

There's a distinct difference between jumping someone at the start and leading on the opening lap. Vettel didn't jump Hamilton at the start at Korea 2011 or Belgium 2013, but was leading by the opening lap.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:03 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton also inherited GB 2014 although he was catching Nico at 0.5 per lap and might have won anyway

Nico's gearbox problem occurred gradually. From lap 4 to lap 10 he was maintaining the gap to Lewis at around 5.5 seconds. Then from lap 11 onward he suddenly began losing 0.5 seconds/lap, then a full second/lap, and then kept getting slower and slower until he retired.

I think Lewis gained Britain 2014 and Russia 2015 thanks to Nico retiring from the lead. Nico gained Britain 2013, Australia 2014, and Monaco 2015.


It would be unusual for Nico to match Lewis for race pace in 2014... he did it only twice really - Bahrain and Spain.

The normal pattern was Hamilton was stronger in the race - slightly faster on the softer qualifying tyre and then once they pitted and got off the qualifying tyre, significantly quicker. Even without a problem, on a track like Silverstone were you could overtake. Hamilton still had a good chance to win.

Nico also didn't get slower and slower until he retired. Once he pitted, he came out and gradually got quicker and quicker for 7 laps and then 2 laps later he retired.

He also didn't suddenly start to lose 0.5 per lap. The 4 laps before his first pit stop were 39.0 to 32.25
During those same 4 laps Hamilton was in the 38.55 - 38.95 range. So about 0.400 quicker which was within the normal race pace advantage Hamilton had over Rosberg that year. To me, the problem seems to occur after the pit stop because his pace on new tyres is only 0.4 quicker than his in lap pace. Hamiltons pace on new tyres is 1.7 seconds quicker than his in lap pace and he was on a compound that was harder. The tyres degraded and got slower that race remember.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Rosberg

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:32 am 
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lamo wrote:
Even without a problem, on a track like Silverstone were you could overtake. Hamilton still had a good chance to win.


Between 2014 and 2016, how many on-track overtakes were there between Merc drivers in the dry?

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