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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Grosjean crashes pretty much every weekend and has an excuse for it every time. How many "benefits of the doubt does he get"
He gets them on a case by case basis. If there is no doubt, no benefit of the doubt comes into play. Surely the notion of fair play should also extend to the sports fans?

We saw that Grosjean's left rear got tagged by Vandoorne's front wing. It is on the website for all to see, so denying that it could have carried consequences is rather pointless.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Is this merely based on the Will Buxton interview that he may have had a puncture because he got hit from behind, Grosjean wouldn't be a driver that needs an excuse?

No he's also said as much on e.g. Twitter.

I have not heard anything of the sort from his team apart from criticising his penalty.

But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:21 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

It's a common thing around here for people to just assume the drivers or team personnel are flat out lying. Slightly puzzling, but there it is.

... especially for Hamilton fans, who will get extremely touchy if you imply he might be lying. :uhoh:

EDIT: While I was replying to your post, a little black bug crawled on my screen and I didn't notice it because of your avatar! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:52 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

It's a common thing around here for people to just assume the drivers or team personnel are flat out lying. Slightly puzzling, but there it is.

... especially for Hamilton fans, who will get extremely touchy if you imply he might be lying. :uhoh:

EDIT: While I was replying to your post, a little black bug crawled on my screen and I didn't notice it because of your avatar! :lol:

:thumbup:


Maybe it crawled out of the screen, "The Ring" - style? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:53 am 
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Exediron wrote:
It's a common thing around here for people to just assume the drivers or team personnel are flat out lying. Slightly puzzling, but there it is.

EXACTLY!!! But I must say that skepticism with neither justification not evidence does seem to be part of the human condition is recent times. Automatic skeptics think they're smart. I think they've deeply troubled individuals. :lol:
Exediron wrote:
... especially for Hamilton fans, who will get extremely touchy if you imply he might be lying. :uhoh:

Exactly again!!! Same for Schumacher fans and don't get me started on Ferrari fans. I suggest a new definition for the next Miriam-Webster: "Hypersensitivity, noun -- the syndrome of being a Ferrari fan." 8)
Exediron wrote:
EDIT: While I was replying to your post, a little black bug crawled on my screen and I didn't notice it because of your avatar! :lol:

Indeed, Covalent has, by far, the best avatar on the web!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
No he's also said as much on e.g. Twitter.

I have not heard anything of the sort from his team apart from criticising his penalty.

But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?
And have you considered the possibility that the puncture only manifested itself the moment the tyre was loaded up in the corner, under braking, or simply because it took the damage that long to cause a problem?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:59 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?
And have you considered the possibility that the puncture only manifested itself the moment the tyre was loaded up in the corner, under braking, or simply because it took the damage that long to cause a problem?

So that would be a no then.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have not heard anything of the sort from his team apart from criticising his penalty.

But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?

Have they confirmed it wasn't? You're the one doing the allegations and thus have the burden of proof.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:01 am 
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Surely that's not true? Poker is the one siding with the law makers here. It is Grosjean making the allegation that the penalty is unfair.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely that's not true? Poker is the one siding with the law makers here. It is Grosjean making the allegation that the penalty is unfair.

Ok that's a fair point. You tend to lose track of where discussions stem from in this forum...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:12 am 
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Just watched the highlights, I was at work and couldn't watch the race. About Grosjean, in 2012 and 2013 (even though the crashes he had) I thought that he could be something. He seemed so quick (which he is) and if only he could sort the crashes I thought of him as a driver at the same level as Button/Kimi/Rosberg, which is a compliment, those are all great drivers. Now though, he doesn't have the car anymore, and parhaps I was wrong, maybe he isn't a tier 2 driver, sadly.

- Nice farewell to Massa, good driving. I've not been a fan but it's sad to see him go.
- Good race from Vettel, did what he had to do.
- Good race from Hamilton, some extra help from the fresh engine.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:42 am 
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Haas would have known the incident was under investigation and would surely have contacted Charlie if the incident had been caused by a puncture and not driver error. If they had data to prove the tyre pressure was lower they would have used it. Evidently they didn't, hence the penalty. Seems to me to be just another case of Romain being, "just a first lap nutcase."

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?
And have you considered the possibility that the puncture only manifested itself the moment the tyre was loaded up in the corner, under braking, or simply because it took the damage that long to cause a problem?

So that would be a no then.
So you haven't then.

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?

Have they confirmed it wasn't? You're the one doing the allegations and thus have the burden of proof.
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely that's not true? Poker is the one siding with the law makers here. It is Grosjean making the allegation that the penalty is unfair.

Ok that's a fair point. You tend to lose track of where discussions stem from in this forum...
At first sight that would be right, Mikey. But Pokerman isn't just siding with the verdict, he goes far beyond that. Of course every fan is free to think of a driver what he wishes. But what Covalent reacted to was Pokerman's claim that Grosjean had run out of talent. That is something quite distinct from agreeing he caused an accident, and not wishing to entertain the notion an earlier incident may have played a role.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Just watched the highlights, I was at work and couldn't watch the race. About Grosjean, in 2012 and 2013 (even though the crashes he had) I thought that he could be something. He seemed so quick (which he is) and if only he could sort the crashes I thought of him as a driver at the same level as Button/Kimi/Rosberg, which is a compliment, those are all great drivers. Now though, he doesn't have the car anymore, and parhaps I was wrong, maybe he isn't a tier 2 driver, sadly.

I was thinking about this recently as well. From what we've seen subsequently from both Grosjean and Kimi, I'd suggest that the Lotus (or whatever we want to call it) from that period was a championship-capable car but was let down by its drivers.

I remember being highly critical of the decision to bring back Grosjean in 2012 given his uninspiring showing in 2009 and then being forced to eat my words. In hindsight I should have stuck to my original opinion; he is just not that good.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
But you have heard it was caused by him running out of talent I presume? If you don't know for a fact there wasn't a puncture you shouldn't be so eager to crucify him.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?

Have they confirmed it wasn't? You're the one doing the allegations and thus have the burden of proof.

So Grosjean has no proof at all that he had a puncture just he might have had a puncture because of an earlier contact.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Haas would have known the incident was under investigation and would surely have contacted Charlie if the incident had been caused by a puncture and not driver error. If they had data to prove the tyre pressure was lower they would have used it. Evidently they didn't, hence the penalty. Seems to me to be just another case of Romain being, "just a first lap nutcase."

This in a nutshell. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?
And have you considered the possibility that the puncture only manifested itself the moment the tyre was loaded up in the corner, under braking, or simply because it took the damage that long to cause a problem?

So that would be a no then.
So you haven't then.

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exactly; he said he had a puncture and you have no evidence to the contrary.

Have the team confirmed that he had a puncture?

Have they confirmed it wasn't? You're the one doing the allegations and thus have the burden of proof.
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely that's not true? Poker is the one siding with the law makers here. It is Grosjean making the allegation that the penalty is unfair.

Ok that's a fair point. You tend to lose track of where discussions stem from in this forum...
At first sight that would be right, Mikey. But Pokerman isn't just siding with the verdict, he goes far beyond that. Of course every fan is free to think of a driver what he wishes. But what Covalent reacted to was Pokerman's claim that Grosjean had run out of talent. That is something quite distinct from agreeing he caused an accident, and not wishing to entertain the notion an earlier incident may have played a role.

The team would have the data if the tyre failed before the contact and as someone else pointed out would have presented that to the stewards.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:17 pm 
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j man wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Just watched the highlights, I was at work and couldn't watch the race. About Grosjean, in 2012 and 2013 (even though the crashes he had) I thought that he could be something. He seemed so quick (which he is) and if only he could sort the crashes I thought of him as a driver at the same level as Button/Kimi/Rosberg, which is a compliment, those are all great drivers. Now though, he doesn't have the car anymore, and parhaps I was wrong, maybe he isn't a tier 2 driver, sadly.

I was thinking about this recently as well. From what we've seen subsequently from both Grosjean and Kimi, I'd suggest that the Lotus (or whatever we want to call it) from that period was a championship-capable car but was let down by its drivers.

I remember being highly critical of the decision to bring back Grosjean in 2012 given his uninspiring showing in 2009 and then being forced to eat my words. In hindsight I should have stuck to my original opinion; he is just not that good.


Yeah. With a driver like Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso those cars could probably have been at the top step alot more.
About Kimi I thought he was so impressive. He had great consistency (did he even beat the record for consecutive finishes?), his racecraft was great, it was hard but fair. Then when Ferrari signed him again I thought what a great move, he is the ultimate number 2 and Ferrari can bring a heap of points with him and Alonso. That didn't happen either.
I think the Lotus cars was tailored to fit Kimis style which is quite special and he is quite sensitive to that, while the Ferraris have been more tailored to Alonso and Vettel (rightly so).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Aren't people making too much out of the Grosjean clash?

This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say about the opening lap is that I got massively hit in turn one. I believe I had a puncture on the rear left. I got to turn six and lost the car, and I think it was just the puncture. Getting a penalty on top of that -- I’m not super happy with it. I want to see the footage. The positive from the race is that the last stint on the supersoft, the car felt amazing. Even though we had massive floor damage, it felt really good. We now need to understand why it felt so good and move on to Abu Dhabi."

He said he believed he had a puncture and wanted to see the replay. He didn't really absolve himself from being guilty and he has apologized to Ocon. I think that they got annoyed, but not with the penalty; it was with the two points he got in his license. (https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13300 ... -in-brazil)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:36 pm 
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j man wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Just watched the highlights, I was at work and couldn't watch the race. About Grosjean, in 2012 and 2013 (even though the crashes he had) I thought that he could be something. He seemed so quick (which he is) and if only he could sort the crashes I thought of him as a driver at the same level as Button/Kimi/Rosberg, which is a compliment, those are all great drivers. Now though, he doesn't have the car anymore, and parhaps I was wrong, maybe he isn't a tier 2 driver, sadly.

I was thinking about this recently as well. From what we've seen subsequently from both Grosjean and Kimi, I'd suggest that the Lotus (or whatever we want to call it) from that period was a championship-capable car but was let down by its drivers.

I remember being highly critical of the decision to bring back Grosjean in 2012 given his uninspiring showing in 2009 and then being forced to eat my words. In hindsight I should have stuck to my original opinion; he is just not that good.


You believe, yet you have nothing to back it up. Grosjean's results in the second half of 2013 was quite representative of his skills, but sadly it was the last good car he got.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say about the opening lap is that I got massively hit in turn one.


... that really did not look like a massive hit though :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say about the opening lap is that I got massively hit in turn one.


... that really did not look like a massive hit though :)

This generation of drivers like to cram in the word "massive" wherever they can. It's the new "for sure". Or "obviously".

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say about the opening lap is that I got massively hit in turn one.


... that really did not look like a massive hit though :)

This generation of drivers like to cram in the word "massive" wherever they can. It's the new "for sure". Or "obviously".

Obviously!

No, it didn't look like a "massive" hit, but maybe it felt like it? Though it doesn't seem likely, looks like he wants to make it sound worse than it was


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