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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:48 pm 
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1. Vettel doing what he does best. Took the lead at the first corner and, barring any surprises in the race, the win was nailed on. Probably the best driver in the field for leading from the front, but it’s telling how comfortable it becomes when Hamilton and Verstappen are out of contention, through starting position and race pace respectively. Bottas and Kimi were never going to be a threat.

2. Bottas won’t have enjoyed this race. Simply not agreesive enough in the first corner, and didn’t trouble Vettel in the slightest. Granted the Mercedes is not good at following, but he seemed resigned to second place after the pit stops. The winter break can’t come soon enough for a man who’s reputation continues to take knocks.

3. Kimi has become underwhelming in abundance. Ferrari in my opinion have made a gross error in judgement not singing someone like a Sainz for next year. Kimi was a great driver 10-12 years ago but he’s lost his edge, and at 38 it won’t be returning. This race summed up his past few seasons perfectly; just doing enough to avoid the uncomfortable questions at Ferrari HQ. Vettel needs a young lion to push and/or support him if he’s to win a championship in that Ferrari.

4 Hamilton is box office. The car was superior to those he was overtaking, but he delivered a trademark Hamilton charge to finish 7 seconds off a closely matched race winning Ferrari. He hasn’t switched off like in 2015 and he’ll be keen to make up for his Saturday error in Abu Dhabi.

5. On the basis of this race, with an improved Renault in the back Alonso could challenge next year. Visibly ringing the neck of an inferior car and punching above his weight again. The man is an Animal. The McLaren chassis looks to be on par with the Red Bull.

Feel free to add your own ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:15 pm 
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There wasn't much Val could do to stop Sebastian his start was perfect and he placed his car with precision accuracy. I guess the Mercedes number two driver does need to toughen up but I fear the team won't support him anyway.

I don't understand the praise for Hamilton. Like you say his car was way quicker than pretty much everyone else. And it was a procession through the field who didn't have the power to stop him without wiping him out.

I don't think Kimi is much worse than Val atm and both Ferrari and Mercedes seem to value team harmony more than having two genuinely quick drivers each. Val has the potential to challenge Hamilton next season but I don't think the team will let him.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:23 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
There wasn't much Val could do to stop Sebastian his start was perfect and he placed his car with precision accuracy. I guess the Mercedes number two driver does need to toughen up but I fear the team won't support him anyway.

I don't understand the praise for Hamilton. Like you say his car was way quicker than pretty much everyone else. And it was a procession through the field who didn't have the power to stop him without wiping him out.

I don't think Kimi is much worse than Val atm and both Ferrari and Mercedes seem to value team harmony more than having two genuinely quick drivers each. Val has the potential to challenge Hamilton next season but I don't think the team will let him.

Re: Hamilton. Yes, it's true he had a faster car than everyone else. However, there's no way that he should have been harrying Kimi for the lead several laps from the end, not when he started from the back. The top three should have been too far up the road for him. That's no doubt why he's getting at least some of the praise he is.

I think Kimi and Bottas are both equally disappointing. Neither looked particularly feisty today


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:23 pm 
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This race was a perfect example of how top drivers can effect the perception of how good a car is.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:21 pm 
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The McLaren has definitively proven that it has a darn good chassis.

There are still too many mechanical failures.

Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso have once again proven they are the top three drivers.

Red Bull have the best pairing of drivers. If the car is up to it, either Ricciardo or Verstappen can challenge for the win.

Ricciardo is the king of the late brakers.

Raikkonen and Bottas are not top tier drivers. One is getting old and the other has not (yet?) found whatever it takes to get to the top.

Liberty are slowly changing the format each race, introducing small but noticeable features that make the sport more fan-friendly.

Croft is making so many technical and knowledge errors he is becoming a less warm version of Murray Walker.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:33 pm 
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1. Hamilton obviously throwing the victory by that unusual crash. He had the quickest car, apparently tuned up, so that other competitors looked like from other class. It's easy to be Lewis Hamilton when you have a car like that.

2. Vettel has justified himself as a worthy champion for so many times, this one included. He did not start from pole, but beat the best car of the year and kept Bottas at bay. Impressive.

3. Bottas just showing that he is not a championship material, and not for the first time. But maybe Mercedes just needs to have that kind of a driver to escort Hamiton to many more titles.

4. Massa keeping up well in the race showing a lot of sparks, and not for the first time this year. Impressive showing, which leads me to believe that...

5. ...Williams is sacking the wrong guy...

6. ...as well as Sauber. Wehrlein again looked impressive, excellently managing to avoid Ricciardo who moved just in front of him. That was close, but it made him loose a lot of position as other did not need to de-accelerate so much. Onward, it was only upward. Very good.

7. Kimi still having a lot of sparks and shows more maturity than in USA GP. He kept it well under pressure from Hamilton.

8. RBR is still not uniformly fast, still struggling at a certain low downforce tracks (not Mexico, apparently).

9. The choice of camera during overtaking moves is awful and unacceptable. As soon as the cars are close to each other, the camera switches onboard, from where you can not see a thing what is going on. Stupid "solution" that goes on for years.

10. This tiime Ricciardo was the more impressive RBR driver.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:42 pm 
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I was very impressed with Hamilton today. He didn’t take any of the risks that we saw Ricciardo taking, and just get pumping in really fast laps. When everybody else had pitted and he ended up leading the race, he was putting in laps just as fast as the others who had fresh tyres on, and his had done 30 hard laps.
Hamilton often has the habit of destroying his tyres trying to catch somebody, but he or the car has improved a lot in looking after the tyres.
Also, a few cars seemed to be getting quite deep grooves in them, can’t say I have seen this sort of damage before. They did show a slow motion shot of Hamilton’s tyre at one point and it was really deforming under load, which may have accounted for the odd groove. I noticed strolls tyres had the same groove just before it fell apart.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:13 pm 
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One conclusion I have drawn is that looking at those speed traps, Torro Rosso-Honda will be battling with Sauber next year.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:05 pm 
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gregs51 wrote:

3. Kimi has become underwhelming in abundance. Ferrari in my opinion have made a gross error in judgement not singing someone like a Sainz for next year. Kimi was a great driver 10-12 years ago but he’s lost his edge, and at 38 it won’t be returning. This race summed up his past few seasons perfectly; just doing enough to avoid the uncomfortable questions at Ferrari HQ. Vettel needs a young lion to push and/or support him if he’s to win a championship in that Ferrari.



Ferrari know what they are getting with Raikkonen. I know it is a frustratingly cautious recruitment policy, but Raikkonen is good for regular points.

You have to go back a long time for the last really 'brave' Ferrari driver appointment, Eddie Irvine probably. Maybe even Ivan Capelli. Massa may have seemed a bit left field but he had tested for them in 03 and been consistent for Sauber in 05. Barrichello had shown maturity at Jordan and then Stewart.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Grosjean continues to act like an entitled idiot, always the first to moan about other drivers before sticking it in the wall (or in today's case another car).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:22 pm 
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1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:39 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Grosjean continues to act like an entitled idiot, always the first to moan about other drivers before sticking it in the wall (or in today's case another car).


To be fair. Today was a racing incident
If you really wanted to be picky. Ocon should be given a grid drop for Abu dahbi. Why was ocon still racing when the safety car message came through on the screen ocon and grosjean were not yet at turn 6 when the display was put out on the tv screen.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:47 am 
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lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.


It wouldn't have hurt to see Sebastian get some of his own swerve medicine thrown back at him, but I am glad that there was not a coming together in the first few corners among the leaders.

I was disappointed to see that Valtteri failed to execute the undercut on Sebastian. I am thinking that Lewis would have made that undercut work decisively and left Sebastian in the dust. I really wanted to see if Valtteri could have held off Seb on track.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:02 am 
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wire2004 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Grosjean continues to act like an entitled idiot, always the first to moan about other drivers before sticking it in the wall (or in today's case another car).


To be fair. Today was a racing incident
If you really wanted to be picky. Ocon should be given a grid drop for Abu dahbi. Why was ocon still racing when the safety car message came through on the screen ocon and grosjean were not yet at turn 6 when the display was put out on the tv screen.


I don't think it was a racing incident. Grosjean was left 75% of the track and still lost control of the car and slid into Ocon.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:06 am 
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One of the conclusions is that Max would have crashed into Alonso, had he not amost stopped his car.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:40 am 
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1. Don't agree Vettel is the best from the front - he made a costly mistake not long ago and not the first time he's made mistakes this season when in win contention. Ferrari/Vettel lost the title this year and it's their fault it didn't go down to the wire. Vettel gave in to the pressure - something I wouldn't expect from a multiple champion.

2. Bottas didn't put up much of a fight but to claim he didn't trouble Vettel.. must have been watching a different race. Vettel had to be weary of him and came close to making a move.

3. Kimi - we all know why Ferrari kept him. It's to keep Vettel happy. We saw his reactions to having an RBR team mate that challenged him. And similar to the Lewis ... collision - he had a habit of blaming everyone but him self until 100% proven and had no choice but to backtrack his claims.

As for Mclaren - don't expect instant results next season. Mclaren made a pretty late decision to ditch Honda. That means another different kind of engine in that car. That means they get around 6 months building a car around a brand new engine. They've spent the recent years building the Mclaren around that Honda engine. I'd wait until 2019 to consider excitement.

Grosjean continues to be Grosjean - proclaiming the innocent card every five minutes while making silly mistakes. At times he defends as if his career is on the line and sacrifices too much for too little. There's a reason why Max is getting high praise - he seems to be making less costly mistakes Vs more experienced drivers like Grosjean.#

As for Hamilton - even though the safety car helped him. He still had to avoid the mess going on in the first lap. It takes one driver like Ric who made a mistake and could have collected Hamilton (he almost did about 3-4 other cars). He got driver of the day in a Merc that apparently can struggle following other cars Vs say the Ferrari which apparently doesn't struggle so much.

As for the usual critics of Lewis. I think you need to grow up. "It's easy to be Lewis Hamilton with a car like that" please explain why Bottas wasn't his closest title contender? It's not like Bottas has suffered endless reliability or told to constantly give up places for Lewis all season? I find it funny when I see comments like that - usually from the bitter rivals. Look at Vettel - I may not be a fan but he makes Kimi look average. It's easy to be a race winner with the best car on the grid - which is why certain drivers beat or dominate their team mates. Alonso, Vettel, Lewis have usually beaten their team mates. When one driver wins races - the other competes for podiums.

As I said before - the best car on the grid has been close between Ferrari/Merc where it's been race specific and who doesn't make mistakes. Vettel won the first few races with ease. To claim the Merc was the best car on the grid this year .. I wonder if some watch F1 or just the highlights... there's also a diffference between quali/race pace. For starters Ferrari have been considered to have a good race package and even the RBR too. Quali wise it's been Merc due to their engine 'turning up'. Not to mention the cars suit different tyres....

Vettel would have taken it to the wire and even Ferrari have admitted their mistakes and the driver cost them the title.

Lewis won the title through hard work, not making costly mistakes - in fact his biggest one was this weekend and it was HIS mistake. At least he didn't blame anyone else...... Vettel lost the title.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:57 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
There wasn't much Val could do to stop Sebastian his start was perfect and he placed his car with precision accuracy. I guess the Mercedes number two driver does need to toughen up but I fear the team won't support him anyway.

I don't understand the praise for Hamilton. Like you say his car was way quicker than pretty much everyone else. And it was a procession through the field who didn't have the power to stop him without wiping him out.

I don't think Kimi is much worse than Val atm and both Ferrari and Mercedes seem to value team harmony more than having two genuinely quick drivers each. Val has the potential to challenge Hamilton next season but I don't think the team will let him.

1. Bottas could have given Vettel an aggressive "Vettel Chop" straight off the line but was too much of a gentleman.
2. Hamilton got through the field cleanly. Yes he had the fastest car but we have seen how the Merc can struggle in dirty air. He got the job done with staying out of trouble and only finished seconds behind the winner.
3. I agree that Kimi isnt much worse than Bottas, however Kimi is at the end of his career and Bottas has many years ahead of him with plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Bottas has much to learn to even be in with a shout of challenging Hamilton next year and, barring the occasional race I dont think it will happen. We know from 2016 that Merc let their drivers race so dont even think of trying that one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:06 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
There wasn't much Val could do to stop Sebastian his start was perfect and he placed his car with precision accuracy. I guess the Mercedes number two driver does need to toughen up but I fear the team won't support him anyway.

I don't understand the praise for Hamilton. Like you say his car was way quicker than pretty much everyone else. And it was a procession through the field who didn't have the power to stop him without wiping him out.

I don't think Kimi is much worse than Val atm and both Ferrari and Mercedes seem to value team harmony more than having two genuinely quick drivers each. Val has the potential to challenge Hamilton next season but I don't think the team will let him.

1. Bottas could have given Vettel an aggressive "Vettel Chop" straight off the line but was too much of a gentleman.
2. Hamilton got through the field cleanly. Yes he had the fastest car but we have seen how the Merc can struggle in dirty air. He got the job done with staying out of trouble and only finished seconds behind the winner.
3. I agree that Kimi isnt much worse than Bottas, however Kimi is at the end of his career and Bottas has many years ahead of him with plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Bottas has much to learn to even be in with a shout of challenging Hamilton next year and, barring the occasional race I dont think it will happen. We know from 2016 that Merc let their drivers race so dont even think of trying that one.

Not that I'm agreeing with MasterRacer but the BIB is just plain wrong. There was zero reason for Merc not to let their drivers race as neither title was ever in question, pretty much from the opening races of the season. They would have looked pretty dumb if they had attempted to impose rigid team orders. And there have been occasions where they have attempted to intervene (Hungary, where Lewis refused to let Nico past, and AD last year, for example). There's this myth that Mercedes somehow is whiter than white as regards how they treat their drivers but you can't realistically use 2014-2016 as any kind of evidence of that, since there was no reward in them doing otherwise


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
1. Bottas could have given Vettel an aggressive "Vettel Chop" straight off the line but was too much of a gentleman.

Just as well, considering how often the 'Vettel Chop' ends with both Vettel and whoever he chopped losing bodywork...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:20 am 
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The stewards may have been hasty in giving Grosjean a penalty for causing an avoidable accident. There was contact between my countryman Vandoorne's front wing and Grosjean's rear left tyre. If there was a slow puncture, this may have provoked the oversteer that sent Ocon into retirement.

Vandoorne was summoned in relation to his incident with Magnussen, but the official documents don't mention either the contact, nor the results of the contact with Grosjean's rear left.

Conclusion (possibly overhasty): stewards leave us in the blind, leading to potential overcritical fan reaction, as witnessed on this page.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:37 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
There wasn't much Val could do to stop Sebastian his start was perfect and he placed his car with precision accuracy. I guess the Mercedes number two driver does need to toughen up but I fear the team won't support him anyway.

I don't understand the praise for Hamilton. Like you say his car was way quicker than pretty much everyone else. And it was a procession through the field who didn't have the power to stop him without wiping him out.

I don't think Kimi is much worse than Val atm and both Ferrari and Mercedes seem to value team harmony more than having two genuinely quick drivers each. Val has the potential to challenge Hamilton next season but I don't think the team will let him.

Im surprised you understand anything at all. lol


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
1. Don't agree Vettel is the best from the front - he made a costly mistake not long ago and not the first time he's made mistakes this season when in win contention. Ferrari/Vettel lost the title this year and it's their fault it didn't go down to the wire. Vettel gave in to the pressure - something I wouldn't expect from a multiple champion.

2. Bottas didn't put up much of a fight but to claim he didn't trouble Vettel.. must have been watching a different race. Vettel had to be weary of him and came close to making a move.

3. Kimi - we all know why Ferrari kept him. It's to keep Vettel happy. We saw his reactions to having an RBR team mate that challenged him. And similar to the Lewis ... collision - he had a habit of blaming everyone but him self until 100% proven and had no choice but to backtrack his claims.

As for Mclaren - don't expect instant results next season. Mclaren made a pretty late decision to ditch Honda. That means another different kind of engine in that car. That means they get around 6 months building a car around a brand new engine. They've spent the recent years building the Mclaren around that Honda engine. I'd wait until 2019 to consider excitement.

Grosjean continues to be Grosjean - proclaiming the innocent card every five minutes while making silly mistakes. At times he defends as if his career is on the line and sacrifices too much for too little. There's a reason why Max is getting high praise - he seems to be making less costly mistakes Vs more experienced drivers like Grosjean.#

As for Hamilton - even though the safety car helped him. He still had to avoid the mess going on in the first lap. It takes one driver like Ric who made a mistake and could have collected Hamilton (he almost did about 3-4 other cars). He got driver of the day in a Merc that apparently can struggle following other cars Vs say the Ferrari which apparently doesn't struggle so much.

As for the usual critics of Lewis. I think you need to grow up. "It's easy to be Lewis Hamilton with a car like that" please explain why Bottas wasn't his closest title contender? It's not like Bottas has suffered endless reliability or told to constantly give up places for Lewis all season? I find it funny when I see comments like that - usually from the bitter rivals. Look at Vettel - I may not be a fan but he makes Kimi look average. It's easy to be a race winner with the best car on the grid - which is why certain drivers beat or dominate their team mates. Alonso, Vettel, Lewis have usually beaten their team mates. When one driver wins races - the other competes for podiums.

As I said before - the best car on the grid has been close between Ferrari/Merc where it's been race specific and who doesn't make mistakes. Vettel won the first few races with ease. To claim the Merc was the best car on the grid this year .. I wonder if some watch F1 or just the highlights... there's also a diffference between quali/race pace. For starters Ferrari have been considered to have a good race package and even the RBR too. Quali wise it's been Merc due to their engine 'turning up'. Not to mention the cars suit different tyres....

Vettel would have taken it to the wire and even Ferrari have admitted their mistakes and the driver cost them the title.

Lewis won the title through hard work, not making costly mistakes - in fact his biggest one was this weekend and it was HIS mistake. At least he didn't blame anyone else...... Vettel lost the title.


Need to grow up? A bit much, don't you think? Just because someone has a different opinion?

You could also ask why wasn't Webber a runner up in all of the RB rocketship years? Surely with a car that advanced he should have, right? It's not as straight forward though, is it?

But the point is that, surely, the best driver (I can't recall any Lewis mistake this year, before Brazil of course) in the best car (or equal best if you prefer) combo and a bunch up from a SC... well, you can expect Lewis to deliver a good result, provided he keeps his nose clean (which to his credit he did). Hence the comment you quoted. Why do you have to take it as a negative criticism to Lewis?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
1. Don't agree Vettel is the best from the front - he made a costly mistake not long ago and not the first time he's made mistakes this season when in win contention. Ferrari/Vettel lost the title this year and it's their fault it didn't go down to the wire. Vettel gave in to the pressure - something I wouldn't expect from a multiple champion.


Simply cannot agree with this. Sorry. The Merc has been the better car over the year. Not by as much as we've grown used to, but it has been the better. Even if on race pace the Ferrari was there or thereabouts, the Saturday advantage of the Merc gave it an advantage for Sunday as well, and on top of that it was more reliable.

It makes no sense to just count Vettel's/Ferrari's failings and not do the same for Hamilton's/Mercedes' mistakes. If Vettel was in contention for so long, then that was because of Hamilton/Mercedes dropping points as well - notably in Monaco, Russia (both Hamilton) and Baku (Mercedes). If you factor all of it in, Vettel still doesn't win it.

This pressure thing... yeah. Baku was red mist, no argument there, but that's it. There was no big "crumbling under pressure" going on in the second half of the season. Singapore was not crumbling under pressure. It was a normal racing manoeuvre, understandable for the conditions, that went bad due to the circumstances.

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3. Kimi - we all know why Ferrari kept him. It's to keep Vettel happy. We saw his reactions to having an RBR team mate that challenged him.


Ricciardo has gone on record to state Vettel kept professional and calm, and was all-round a very good teammate. So what reactions?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.


It wouldn't have hurt to see Sebastian get some of his own swerve medicine thrown back at him, but I am glad that there was not a coming together in the first few corners among the leaders.

I was disappointed to see that Valtteri failed to execute the undercut on Sebastian. I am thinking that Lewis would have made that undercut work decisively and left Sebastian in the dust. I really wanted to see if Valtteri could have held off Seb on track.


Ferrari pulled out a 2.1 second pit stop - another half second he'd have been toast. Although I reckon he'd have had the pace to overtake Bottas anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:35 pm 
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lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:44 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:48 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

The flip side to this is Hamilton was able to stay out of trouble and not get collected by the cars that crashed out in front of him.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.


Apparently 5 seconds because of starting from the pit lane then Hamilton got a free pass on 6 cars. Granted Hamilton would have overtaken them quite easy but every bit of time counts and Hamilton lost a couple of seconds because of Stroll in the middle sector near the end of the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:56 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.


Apparently 5 seconds because of starting from the pit lane then Hamilton got a free pass on 6 cars. Granted Hamilton would have overtaken them quite easy but every bit of time counts and Hamilton lost a couple of seconds because of Stroll in the middle sector near the end of the race.


And made up how many by the SC?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:57 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

The flip side to this is Hamilton was able to stay out of trouble and not get collected by the cars that crashed out in front of him.

I have not seen how close was Hamilton to the incidents, was he really that close that he had to avoid anyone? From what I saw, Wehrlein was the one that made the best avoiding maneuver, but because he had to brake insanely, he lost all the positions he gained in qualy and at the start.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:02 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

The flip side to this is Hamilton was able to stay out of trouble and not get collected by the cars that crashed out in front of him.

Well 3 of them crashed before the pit exit so clearly he could avoid them. Then Ocon and Grosjean collided in the middle of the track quite some time before Hamilton got there and the safety car was already applied. All he had to do was go slowly on the inside of the track. But yes, he did avoid any damage. Hardly difficult though


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.


Apparently 5 seconds because of starting from the pit lane then Hamilton got a free pass on 6 cars. Granted Hamilton would have overtaken them quite easy but every bit of time counts and Hamilton lost a couple of seconds because of Stroll in the middle sector near the end of the race.


And made up how many by the SC?


I think you missed my point, I was pointing out if Hamilton lost 2 seconds to Stroll in one sector then he would have lost time trying to overtake 6 cars at the start.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

The flip side to this is Hamilton was able to stay out of trouble and not get collected by the cars that crashed out in front of him.

I have not seen how close was Hamilton to the incidents, was he really that close that he had to avoid anyone? From what I saw, Wehrlein was the one that made the best avoiding maneuver, but because he had to brake insanely, he lost all the positions he gained in qualy and at the start.


The SC was already out due to the incident at turn 2.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

The flip side to this is Hamilton was able to stay out of trouble and not get collected by the cars that crashed out in front of him.

I have not seen how close was Hamilton to the incidents, was he really that close that he had to avoid anyone? From what I saw, Wehrlein was the one that made the best avoiding maneuver, but because he had to brake insanely, he lost all the positions he gained in qualy and at the start.

Yes Wehrlein did have to do a sudden swerve. It was very good avoiding action, but luckily didn't cost him much. I have described what happened with the part I have put in bold in one of my posts further up.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:05 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.


Apparently 5 seconds because of starting from the pit lane then Hamilton got a free pass on 6 cars. Granted Hamilton would have overtaken them quite easy but every bit of time counts and Hamilton lost a couple of seconds because of Stroll in the middle sector near the end of the race.


And made up how many by the SC?


I think you missed my point, I was pointing out if Hamilton lost 2 seconds to Stroll in one sector then he would have lost time trying to overtake 6 cars at the start.


I understand that, you have a point. However, in the grand scheme of things, he certainly made up rather than lost time from overtaking.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:01 pm 
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My conclusion after watching the race replay? The 22 best racing drivers in the world can’t complete a lap of racing from a standing start.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Grosjean continues to act like an entitled idiot, always the first to moan about other drivers before sticking it in the wall (or in today's case another car).


To be fair. Today was a racing incident
If you really wanted to be picky. Ocon should be given a grid drop for Abu dahbi. Why was ocon still racing when the safety car message came through on the screen ocon and grosjean were not yet at turn 6 when the display was put out on the tv screen.


I don't think it was a racing incident. Grosjean was left 75% of the track and still lost control of the car and slid into Ocon.


Neither do I. I just can't fathom how any of the expert pundits and commentators think it was anything other than Grosjean's fault. Ocon left him plenty of room and it was hardly a surprise lunge around the outside. Ocon was on the outside and slightly ahead for a good few seconds before they reached that corner, Grosjean had plenty of time to back off if he couldn't control his car.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:25 pm 
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f1guyus wrote:
My conclusion after watching the race replay? The 22 best racing drivers in the world can’t complete a lap of racing from a standing start.

who were 2 of the drivers? I know 20 of them :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:29 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
1. Bottas should have covered the inside, standard practise at Brazil. Should have been watching the race starts on youtube last night!

2. Hamiltons race wasn't really from last. It was essentially a 67 lap race starting from P14 rather than the usual 71. Although he still might have just got 5th without the SC. I think he would have won this race quite comfortably, but that is racing. Mistakes get punished and it was entertaining to see him come through. There was a 20-25 lap period in which if a SC came out he might have been genuine favourite to win the race.

Any charge from the back will have that. There will always be cars that crash out or otherwise end up having to stop early. The point is that they started in front of him. His race certainly was really from last. In fact, had he caught some kind of break (be it a safety car 15-20 laps into the race or a change in weather) he might have pulled off the win. Looked to me like he just ran out of tire at the end.


Not exactly always. In Mexico last year, Ericsson got spun and only Wehrlein retired that race. Then Ericsson finished 11th. Just think where he would have been if multiple retirements had helped him. I do think the Hamilton got helped out a bit. Getting past Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Magnussen when driving out of the pits was down to an incident, then having a safety car to allow him to catch up with the rest. Then having Grosjean take Ocon out and go wide himself. Then the safety car came out and Hamilton managed to jump Wehrlein in the pits too because Wehrlein had a bad stop. So basically, Hamilton's race did start from 14th after the safety car had gone in. So I think this was the main reason why he was able to challenge Kimi. It certainly saved him a bit of time.

And who exactly charged from last to 4th in that race? No one, that's right. If you want an example of someone going from last to the front, you will always see that person overtake numerous cars but you will also see them benefit from other cars running into problems or crashing out (often on the first lap). This wasn't a special circumstance at all and the safety car coming so early in the race did very little to help Hamilton. A safety car in the middle portion of the race would have been the boon that he needed to really have a shot.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Grosjean continues to act like an entitled idiot, always the first to moan about other drivers before sticking it in the wall (or in today's case another car).


To be fair. Today was a racing incident
If you really wanted to be picky. Ocon should be given a grid drop for Abu dahbi. Why was ocon still racing when the safety car message came through on the screen ocon and grosjean were not yet at turn 6 when the display was put out on the tv screen.


I don't think it was a racing incident. Grosjean was left 75% of the track and still lost control of the car and slid into Ocon.


Neither do I. I just can't fathom how any of the expert pundits and commentators think it was anything other than Grosjean's fault. Ocon left him plenty of room and it was hardly a surprise lunge around the outside. Ocon was on the outside and slightly ahead for a good few seconds before they reached that corner, Grosjean had plenty of time to back off if he couldn't control his car.

I think I do agree with what I heard the commentators say. The penalty was possibly a bit overly harsh on Grosjean. I personally though Ocon was taking a bit of a risk. But nothing wrong with it. Drivers should always know that it is possible for drivers on the inside to over steer. But it is a risk that is fine to take. Grosjean was just a little unlucky and Ocon was extremely unlucky. But I can't really blame anyone else but Grosjean.


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