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 Post subject: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:05 am 
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Watching some old Indy car videos and it got me thinking f1 is trying so so hard to conquer America. What better way than to bring f1 to a oval.
What oval would you like too see as a formula 1 race if we had the chance too see it.
For me. We did well at Indy when we ran the road course. But we have burned the bridges with Indy plus I don't see f1 surpassing the Indy car there.
Daytona and Talladega would be out as the g force would be too much. And 1 mile ovals are too short.
My pick would be a June date after the Canadian grand prix. And I'd say engine restriction rules are exempt for this race. (3 engines for 2018 as it is now. But an extra set of engines for this race only) and I would make it a double points race for this race only as well. And give the teams double the amount of tyres they have now for a weekend. Why??? My proposal would be to re establish. the us 500 at Michigan. All 250 laps of it.
I would love too see how formula 1 goes around a oval. And I feel that this will also interest the us viewers to make this race a future classic.

Any other suggestions on what oval would suit formula 1. And if it would be feasable and if it would peak the interest of a casual formula 1 fan.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:01 am 
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None of the ovals would suit a Formula One car. They arent built for those kinds of speeds nor impacts.

Still, I vote Michigan Speedway since it's close to where I live.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:52 am 
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It would need to be the biggest and most gently banked oval you could find, and even then you'd need special tyres and a special aero kit for it.

Really, the only choice is IMS: not only is it the largest, but nowhere else would get F1 the sort of attention and respect from American fans you mention in your post. As for the speed, if the teams were allowed to design special oval packages for the cars I'm pretty sure they would be faster than Indy cars. I don't know how many of them would last 500 miles, though! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:10 am 
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This would probably end up as shades of the 2005 US Grand Prix where all but six of the cars pulled into the pits at the end of the formation lap and refused to race. The culprit in that case was tires that would not handle one of the turns on the Indy oval. Running turn one backwards was causing tire failures. Running a full race distance on all four corners of the oval would lead to any number of unanticipated failures, and probably significant injuries on cars that aren't designed for that style of racing.

As to Michigan, the Champ Cars ran at around 235 MPH around there in oval trim. The F1 cars would also need to have their wings and aero packages massively redesigned to keep the downforce and speeds down.

I would think that most US F1 fans would balk at attending a F1 race in the US at an oval.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:07 am 
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Indycar does ovals, NASCAR does ovals, what can Formula One do on any oval that would separate itself from those two series? IMO for most US viewers, there is very little distinction between Indycar and Formula One.

So for Formula One to be distinct and draw in a crowd, what can they do that pulls in fans? It must be very different than what Indycar does, and it must make a big splash. Let me know when you can figure that out. And no, just because it's labelled "Formula One", that doesn't have much market appeal.

Technically, Formula One cars are not designed for or suited to ovals. There are such issues as sustained full throttle and crashworthness would require basically a brand new design and car.

But if an oval track is to be selected, I cast my vote for Bristol. Not a huge oval, but a bullring.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:52 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Indycar does ovals, NASCAR does ovals, what can Formula One do on any oval that would separate itself from those two series? IMO for most US viewers, there is very little distinction between Indycar and Formula One.

So for Formula One to be distinct and draw in a crowd, what can they do that pulls in fans? It must be very different than what Indycar does, and it must make a big splash. Let me know when you can figure that out. And no, just because it's labelled "Formula One", that doesn't have much market appeal.

Formula 1 can go faster than the others. If it doesn't, it's failed at its fundamental goal.

But to make an F1 car go faster at an oval than an Indy car would require, as many people have pointed out, a highly specific aerodynamic and mechanical solution that would cost a huge amount for just one race.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Indycar does ovals, NASCAR does ovals, what can Formula One do on any oval that would separate itself from those two series? IMO for most US viewers, there is very little distinction between Indycar and Formula One.

So for Formula One to be distinct and draw in a crowd, what can they do that pulls in fans? It must be very different than what Indycar does, and it must make a big splash. Let me know when you can figure that out. And no, just because it's labelled "Formula One", that doesn't have much market appeal.

Formula 1 can go faster than the others. If it doesn't, it's failed at its fundamental goal.

But to make an F1 car go faster at an oval than an Indy car would require, as many people have pointed out, a highly specific aerodynamic and mechanical solution that would cost a huge amount for just one race.


Faster? That is a function of acceleration, braking, and cornering. At what is basically a constant speed race, acceleration and braking are nullified. In fact I suspect the DW12 possess more torque at that speed range. Cornering comes down to mechanical grip and aerodynamics. Although the DW12 may not have the sophisticated aero of a Formula One car, it's larger diffuser and the ability to select a wing package pretty well nullifies that advantage too.

The DW12 is a fast car, please do not assume that just because "It is not Formula One" that it is significantly lesser.

Formula One has not failed at it's "goal" because it still can accelerate, brake, and corner quicker than anything on a road course. But this is not a road course.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:26 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Faster? That is a function of acceleration, braking, and cornering. At what is basically a constant speed race, acceleration and braking are nullified. In fact I suspect the DW12 possess more torque at that speed range. Cornering comes down to mechanical grip and aerodynamics. Although the DW12 may not have the sophisticated aero of a Formula One car, it's larger diffuser and the ability to select a wing package pretty well nullifies that advantage too.

The DW12 is a fast car, please do not assume that just because "It is not Formula One" that it is significantly lesser.

Formula One has not failed at it's "goal" because it still can accelerate, brake, and corner quicker than anything on a road course. But this is not a road course.

Hence why they would need a highly specific aero kit for the ovals.

I understand the differences of oval racing, and I'm not implying the current Indy car is slow. But Formula 1 is all about being the fastest open wheeled racing in the world; that is the point of F1. They don't race on ovals, so it doesn't matter if they're quick on them. But if F1 raced on ovals, they would need to be demonstrably quicker than Indy cars, or they would lose face. If F1 raced on an oval and was slower (or even just not faster) than anything else, it would have failed, pure and simple.

I don't think that Indy fans should be offended by that statement, honestly. An Indy car costs about 1/100 what a top F1 machine does, it runs a manufacturer supplied aero kit, it has a less powerful engine, no electric assist to the turbo - the list goes on. It's a perfectly good racing car, but an F1 car needs to be faster than anything else to justify what it is and the absurd level of its cost. If F1 raced at IMS, one of the two series would get embarrassed.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:58 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Faster? That is a function of acceleration, braking, and cornering. At what is basically a constant speed race, acceleration and braking are nullified. In fact I suspect the DW12 possess more torque at that speed range. Cornering comes down to mechanical grip and aerodynamics. Although the DW12 may not have the sophisticated aero of a Formula One car, it's larger diffuser and the ability to select a wing package pretty well nullifies that advantage too.

The DW12 is a fast car, please do not assume that just because "It is not Formula One" that it is significantly lesser.

Formula One has not failed at it's "goal" because it still can accelerate, brake, and corner quicker than anything on a road course. But this is not a road course.

Hence why they would need a highly specific aero kit for the ovals.

I understand the differences of oval racing, and I'm not implying the current Indy car is slow. But Formula 1 is all about being the fastest open wheeled racing in the world; that is the point of F1. They don't race on ovals, so it doesn't matter if they're quick on them. But if F1 raced on ovals, they would need to be demonstrably quicker than Indy cars, or they would lose face. If F1 raced on an oval and was slower (or even just not faster) than anything else, it would have failed, pure and simple.

I don't think that Indy fans should be offended by that statement, honestly. An Indy car costs about 1/100 what a top F1 machine does, it runs a manufacturer supplied aero kit, it has a less powerful engine, no electric assist to the turbo - the list goes on. It's a perfectly good racing car, but an F1 car needs to be faster than anything else to justify what it is and the absurd level of its cost. If F1 raced at IMS, one of the two series would get embarrassed.


Thus why I thought of bringing back the us 500 st Michigan. It does not directly compare to a Indy car.


Also. Going back. If it's banking that may be a problem. There is pocano you can go too. That a a very limited banked tri oval
And although I did think about Bristol. I thought a half mile would be too small.

And on the tyre situation of 2005 Indy was 1 big fustercluck from michellin and I would like to think Pirelli would not make that mistake

I honestly don't think there would be too much more money in aero kits as well as formula 1 has different aero kits for whatever race they go to anyway.

And on the point of a crash structure if formula 1. Isn't it pretty strong as it is. And the introduction of the much hated halo will also help. The safter barriers will also go along way in helping.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Indycar does ovals, NASCAR does ovals, what can Formula One do on any oval that would separate itself from those two series? IMO for most US viewers, there is very little distinction between Indycar and Formula One.

So for Formula One to be distinct and draw in a crowd, what can they do that pulls in fans? It must be very different than what Indycar does, and it must make a big splash. Let me know when you can figure that out. And no, just because it's labelled "Formula One", that doesn't have much market appeal.

Technically, Formula One cars are not designed for or suited to ovals. There are such issues as sustained full throttle and crashworthness would require basically a brand new design and car.

But if an oval track is to be selected, I cast my vote for Bristol. Not a huge oval, but a bullring.

Image
https://www.gomaco.com/Resources/worldstories/world36_1/photos/bristol/SL-110724-D-02.jpg


I believe that the sporting regs say that the minimum track length for a Formula 1 track is 3.5km or about 2.1mi.

APPENDIX O TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE

- Minimum circuit length for F1 is 3.5km.

- It is recommended that the length of any new circuit should not exceed 7 km.

- The maximum permitted length for straight sections of track is 2km.

- When planning new permanent circuits, the track width foreseen should be at least 12 m.

- The width of the starting grid should be at least 15 m; this width must be maintained through to the exit of the first corner (as indicated by the racing line).


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:22 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:

And on the tyre situation of 2005 Indy was 1 big fustercluck from michellin and I would like to think Pirelli would not make that mistake


Pirelli has been a fustercluck from the first time they put F1 Rubber to the track - not Pirelli's fault but the FIA mandate.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:27 pm 
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I would love to see F1 on an oval. I know some people stick their noses up at ovals as a simplistic thing that's for 'Murica! But I enjoy watching things like the Indy500 when they're on, its a different kettle of fish which I'm sure the teams and drivers would enjoy tackling.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:12 pm 
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....and never the twain shall meet. It is a completely different ethos both on the track and in the crowd. If F1 teams wanted to do ovals, I'm sure they would. I just hope they never use the same cars and drivers. Not being derogatory to oval attendees, but how would they have reacted at say old Spa?. Not only can you not see all the cars all the time, but you do not see any for 2 min or more.
F1 simmers all the time with things going on only the climax is sunday. To be watching them on an oval seems wrong, like opening the curtains on Xmas eve and watching the sky.

It is like a heavy metal fan going to a chamber music recital, And long live the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:28 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
wire2004 wrote:

And on the tyre situation of 2005 Indy was 1 big fustercluck from michellin and I would like to think Pirelli would not make that mistake


Pirelli has been a fustercluck from the first time they put F1 Rubber to the track - not Pirelli's fault but the FIA mandate.

Agree with you on the first point but not on the second. AFAIAA the FIA mandate was to make tyres that would degrade quickly, not ones that made the drivers feel like they were driving on "greasy eggs," as Schumacher once famously said. Pirelli have been a disaster from day one as far as I'm concerned


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:37 pm 
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moby wrote:
....and never the twain shall meet. It is a completely different ethos both on the track and in the crowd. If F1 teams wanted to do ovals, I'm sure they would. I just hope they never use the same cars and drivers. Not being derogatory to oval attendees, but how would they have reacted at say old Spa?. Not only can you not see all the cars all the time, but you do not see any for 2 min or more.
F1 simmers all the time with things going on only the climax is sunday. To be watching them on an oval seems wrong, like opening the curtains on Xmas eve and watching the sky.

It is like a heavy metal fan going to a chamber music recital, And long live the difference.

There are many people who can appreciate more than one type of racing or music.

Doesn't mean that I want see F1 doing ovals but it silly to act as if fans of an oval series can't enjoy road racing and vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:31 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
moby wrote:
....and never the twain shall meet. It is a completely different ethos both on the track and in the crowd. If F1 teams wanted to do ovals, I'm sure they would. I just hope they never use the same cars and drivers. Not being derogatory to oval attendees, but how would they have reacted at say old Spa?. Not only can you not see all the cars all the time, but you do not see any for 2 min or more.
F1 simmers all the time with things going on only the climax is sunday. To be watching them on an oval seems wrong, like opening the curtains on Xmas eve and watching the sky.

It is like a heavy metal fan going to a chamber music recital, And long live the difference.

There are many people who can appreciate more than one type of racing or music.

Doesn't mean that I want see F1 doing ovals but it silly to act as if fans of an oval series can't enjoy road racing and vice versa.


This is partly the point I make. They are different, why cross them over. I am not saying oval or dead metal fans wil not enjoy chamber music, just not in the same venue with the same instruments. One is for the occasion, the other for the (I really can not think of a term to use here without grinding someone :lol: )


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:49 pm 
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I was about to jump in here and suggest Bristol, but Blinky best me to it.
The other track that springs to mind for me is Phoenix. It has shallow banking, and would be awesome to see an F1 car fly around there.

Tried to upload some Google Image photos, but was struggling on my phone


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 Post subject: Re: F1 racing on a oval.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:02 pm 
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And you think this would draw American spectators to F1... yeah right. Just like the Daytona 200 draws harley riders during bike week.


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