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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:38 pm 
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zaar wrote:
kleefton wrote:
The Ferraris were ridiculously fast in S2.

The Mercs were at least as ridiculously fast up the hill, I'd say.


Until they come up against an equally fast car.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Wessex wrote:
Great race. Thanks for letting me join in.


No problem, welcome to the race thread :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
Wish we'd seen more of that Massa/Alonso/Perez battle!

+1


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Well does hamilton finally get driver of the day.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:39 pm 
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zaar wrote:
kleefton wrote:
The Ferraris were ridiculously fast in S2.

The Mercs were at least as ridiculously fast up the hill, I'd say.


Oh yeah...but in order to stay close and pass they needed to be able to match the Ferraris in S2,

Overall, Merc was the faster car today I reckon. Hamilton on pole would have won easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:40 pm 
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So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


Well it worked, the kid is now the lap record holder at Interlagos.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Great to see Massa bow out with a great drive.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
Great to see Massa bow out with a great drive.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:44 pm 
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gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.


Thats for sure, looking forward to a dominating display coming in the finale

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Last edited by Mayhem on Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:50 pm 
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I'm not so sure about a Hamilton easy win. Vettel was taking it easy out front and Hamilton had a brand new engine, both drivers was running completely different races.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:50 pm 
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That was a cracking race. I bet Lewis enjoyed that one. His Merc was flying today!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:52 pm 
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That was very accomplished from Vettel it has to be said. But I'm afraid Bottas will be under the microscope again. It's two second places in a row, but far from impressive.

In Brazil, he could do nothing about Vettel's start but he never looked like getting right on his gearbox past lap one aside from that cheeky undercut attempt. This is the sort of race he should be winning to be an effective number two.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:53 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Hamilton distorts the picture of pace here given the race he had to run. The fresh engine helps, otherwise the pace was more or less equal. Kimi had no problem hanging onto Bottas, who was close-ish to Vettel but could never really threaten and Vettel was controlling the race.

Over qualifying and the race the pace was basically equal but Ferrari do seem to have a strange problem with fuel so overall Hamilton starting at the front even in an "equal" engine would have probably got the victory.


Last edited by Invade on Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.


Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


Except that DHL awards driver with most fastest lap in a season...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


You do realize there's a difference between getting a "fastest lap" and being the Interlagos "lap-record-holder" by breaking Juan Pablo Montoya's "13 year old" lap record.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:59 pm 
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I mean he was the 5th fastest driver at best. Because of fresh SS he did that on low fuel. Had other 4 pitted as well on fresh SS they all would have gone faster

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:03 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


You do realize there's a difference between getting a "fastest lap" and being the Interlagos "lap-record-holder" by breaking Juan Pablo Montoya's "13 year old" lap record.


He didn't. He broke Hamilton's 3 minute old record. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I mean he was the 5th fastest driver at best. Because of fresh SS he did that on low fuel. Had other 4 pitted as well on fresh SS they all would have gone faster


That's like saying Lewis only finished 5th today because, his car was the only one on track set-up for the track conditions and he actually started the race with less fuel on-board, owing to his start from the pit. Both probably true statements, but IMHO both he and the kid showed they are at the top of their games driver-wise in F1 and shows just how much they love racing in F1.

Good race today, and I wish Masa the best in his future racing endeavors.


Last edited by F1nut on Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:15 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.

Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Well I do think Vettel was holding back and controlling the race given how close Kimi was all race. I suppose if you assume Vettel was holding back a lot and discount Hamilton’s fresh engine you could say they were roughly equal in race pace, but you would have make some assumptions as to how much Vettel was holding back.

Overall for the weekend though it was a clear Mercedes track with qualifying being a clear win for Mercedes, so like I said I assumed this would be a Ferrari track but it turned out to be a Mercedes one, hence why I’m not confident in my previous assumption that Abu Dhabi would be a Ferrari track.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.

It means his name is in the record book. If you can't get the win it is still something to brag about.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:19 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.


Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Vettel simply managed the race. Kimi was just as easily holding onto Bottas.

Edit: Also when Merc tried to urge Bottas to do more to attack Vettel he was never able to summon anything remotely meaningful.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:25 pm 
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That was probably as bad as it gets from Stroll.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Vettel simply managed the race. Kimi was just as easily holding onto Bottas.

I heard from Sky during the race that supposedly Vettel was managing a tire temperature issue, but then on the podium Vettel didnt mention anything about it and said he was pushing from the get go to the end.
Did Vettel or Ferrari mention this issue on the post race interview maybe (I didnt have the chance to see them)?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:28 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


I think if Bottas + whoever (not a top driver) was in the Merc that Vettel would have won the WDC this year. Bottas should be better in 2018 now that he's bedding in and has had a season to understand operations.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Invade wrote:
Vettel simply managed the race. Kimi was just as easily holding onto Bottas.

I heard from Sky during the race that supposedly Vettel was managing a tire temperature issue, but then on the podium Vettel didnt mention anything about it and said he was pushing from the get go to the end.
Did Vettel or Ferrari mention this issue on the post race interview maybe (I didnt have the chance to see them)?



Yeh I haven't heard anything else. But I heard about high tyre temps and also fuel gets brought up often regarding Ferrari. Regardless, Bottas wasn't even able to attack Vettel and that also says a lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Invade wrote:
Vettel simply managed the race. Kimi was just as easily holding onto Bottas.

I heard from Sky during the race that supposedly Vettel was managing a tire temperature issue, but then on the podium Vettel didnt mention anything about it and said he was pushing from the get go to the end.
Did Vettel or Ferrari mention this issue on the post race interview maybe (I didnt have the chance to see them)?


Vettel did say it was a tough day and that it wasn't easy to manage the tires.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:36 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Migen wrote:
Invade wrote:
Vettel simply managed the race. Kimi was just as easily holding onto Bottas.

I heard from Sky during the race that supposedly Vettel was managing a tire temperature issue, but then on the podium Vettel didnt mention anything about it and said he was pushing from the get go to the end.
Did Vettel or Ferrari mention this issue on the post race interview maybe (I didnt have the chance to see them)?


Vettel did say it was a tough day and that it wasn't easy to manage the tires.


To be honest all of this just makes Hamilton's drive look even more impressive. Bottas wasn't able to mount even a meek challenge to Vettel post-pitstops and Kimi also easily held on to the leading pace. Hamilton's raw race pace was super but who knows how much that brand spanking fresh PU helped matters?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Invade wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


I think if Bottas + whoever (not a top driver) was in the Merc that Vettel would have won the WDC this year. Bottas should be better in 2018 now that he's bedding in and has had a season to understand operations.

You are right but I think these stats also show more that if Vettel was in the same car as Hamilton and neither had any issues throughout the season then Vettel would come out on top, I have absolutely not one ounce of doubt that it would be so.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:02 pm 
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It is not only that Hamilton got a brand New engine. There are only 2 races left and that means they also don't have to "manage" the engine so they can get much more power out of it even during the races. Hamilton is now able to keep the engine in the famous merc "qualy mode" even during the races.


Last edited by TSA1981 on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:05 pm 
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I always find assertions like that pretty bizarre and it only ever happens with F1 fans. We have evidence from so many individual sports that when two guys are pretty much the best around and at the top of their game then either guy can win. It's not like one guy would always best the other guy season on season on season.

If Vettel was in the Merc alongside Hamilton there's no telling how his season would have gone and just because he got off to what I feel was a better first half of the season than Hamilton doesn't mean the same would happen if he was driving a completely different car in a different team against a vastly superior (than Kimi) team-mate. All I'd confidently say is he'd have provided way stiffer competition than Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:11 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Invade wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


I think if Bottas + whoever (not a top driver) was in the Merc that Vettel would have won the WDC this year. Bottas should be better in 2018 now that he's bedding in and has had a season to understand operations.

You are right but I think these stats also show more that if Vettel was in the same car as Hamilton and neither had any issues throughout the season then Vettel would come out on top, I have absolutely not one ounce of doubt that it would be so.


You can have as little doubt as you want. But no matter how boldly you state it as fact, it is just wild speculation.

Vettel has only ever had one world class driver as a teammate in Ricciardo: and he was beaten (albeit he kinda sleepwalked through that season). He isn't beating Raikkonen by the same kind of margins Alonso used to. Despite Kimi being even further past it now.

At Red Bull, after 2010 Mark Webber essentially became an Aussie Barrichello. So I just think that while he won those 4 titles, Alonso and probably Button and Hamilton would also have won those.

But I don't know for sure any more than you do.


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