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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Did not see this info here this morning...........

Formula One world champion Lewis Hamilton has criticized the sport's organizers in Brazil after members of his Mercedes team were held up at gun point in Sao Paulo last night.

Armed men reportedly surrounded vehicles leaving the Interlagos circuit in Sao Paulo, where qualifying will take place later today.

The criminals stopped vans belonging to Formula 1 teams, as well as a car from the FIA, motor sport's governing body, at around 8pm.

The gang reportedly held up mechanics from a number of F1 teams, including the van belonging to Mercedes, although it is not known what was stolen.

According to Hamilton, shots were fired and one victim had a gun held to his head, but no-one was hurt. The Mercedes driver himself was not on the bus at the time.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sports ... z4y8RAZpmw


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:08 pm 
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The future of the race is already in difficulty, Massa is retiring, then this, doesn't look good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:11 pm 
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This happens every year now. But what can you actually rob somebody of in this day and age?
All team personnel know to leave rings,watches, jewellery at home. That leaves your phone and a lot of people have a cheap second one for these types of trips. I know all Olympians were advised of this.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm 
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lamo wrote:
This happens every year now. But what can you actually rob somebody of in this day and age?
All team personnel know to leave rings,watches, jewellery at home. That leaves your phone and a lot of people have a cheap second one for these types of trips. I know all Olympians were advised of this.

Still do you want to be in a situation with a gun at your head?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Wow, having a gun held to your head must be something else... Pretty bloody scary stuff.

Didn't JB or part of his crew get involved in an incident similar a few years ago? Surely the FiA or FOM or circuit (not sure who would/should be the one) knows this was a relatively high risk potential and could have had some burly men about for protection, or pay the police to put a shift on to escort them or something?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:37 pm 
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I'm a member at a few sites & trust me, Brazil is a pretty hostile country. The crew should consider themselves quite fortunate to come out alive from that scenario.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:49 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm a member at a few sites & trust me, Brazil is a pretty hostile country. The crew should consider themselves quite fortunate to come out alive from that scenario.


Surely if you give them what they ask, why would they shoot you? They seemed pretty organised, they don't want to add a murder charge.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:28 am 
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lamo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm a member at a few sites & trust me, Brazil is a pretty hostile country. The crew should consider themselves quite fortunate to come out alive from that scenario.


Surely if you give them what they ask, why would they shoot you? They seemed pretty organised, they don't want to add a murder charge.


A murder charge, they don't care, there are something like 70 murders a day in Brazil and it has a massive problem with corruption, so what would one more for the count really mean?????

It shouldn't happen, there should be a Police presence but, the Teams should also do more, all vehicles should be bullet resistant and have Security, they have a duty of care towards their entier staff.

From what I have read it also seems the Williams Team had problems and there a rumours going around other did to.

It's sad to see but, I have ponder the reasoning for including the Brazillian GP for a good few years given the security problems (plus the Country being give other large scale sports compititions) and without a Brazillian in the field, could this be the last contract Brazil gets?

It's lose would be a grat shame for the Brazillian Fans who are so pationate but.......


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:12 am 
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lamo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm a member at a few sites & trust me, Brazil is a pretty hostile country. The crew should consider themselves quite fortunate to come out alive from that scenario.


Surely if you give them what they ask, why would they shoot you? They seemed pretty organised, they don't want to add a murder charge.


The Brazilian police don't mess around, they shoot to kill any robber. So basically, if you intend to perform an armed robbery in Brazil, everything is on a lethal level for all. In Brazil, you either get away with the robbery or die. There is no middle ground of being captured and going to jail.

To set the record straight, it was not Hamilton's bus, it was the team's, and Hamilton was not there and safe.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:31 am 
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lamo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm a member at a few sites & trust me, Brazil is a pretty hostile country. The crew should consider themselves quite fortunate to come out alive from that scenario.


Surely if you give them what they ask, why would they shoot you? They seemed pretty organised, they don't want to add a murder charge.


A lot of them are heartless thugs.

Coming to the safety in Brazil, even their prisons are not safe. Gang related murders take place inside with inmates recoring on mobiles & cops never to be seen. Corruption rules here.

Only undercover cops have success there.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:03 am 
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This might not be the most popular opinion, but it really is time to stop going to Brazil until they sort this out. We're basically waiting for something to go horribly wrong at this point.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:43 am 
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Same thing happen through the Olympics.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
This might not be the most popular opinion, but it really is time to stop going to Brazil until they sort this out. We're basically waiting for something to go horribly wrong at this point.

I agree. When the only way you can go there is with armed guards and bulletproof vans, forget it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Time to hire 'SECURITY' for transportation to and from the track for all race connected personnel.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:10 am 
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lamo wrote:
This happens every year now. But what can you actually rob somebody of in this day and age?
All team personnel know to leave rings,watches, jewellery at home. That leaves your phone and a lot of people have a cheap second one for these types of trips. I know all Olympians were advised of this.

When I was working for Airbus, they used to tell us that we should leave valuables back, but always have a little cash to give them. Coming empty handed is not getting them happy. This was back in the 90's, not much has changed it seems.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:32 pm 
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jimmyj wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
This might not be the most popular opinion, but it really is time to stop going to Brazil until they sort this out. We're basically waiting for something to go horribly wrong at this point.

I agree. When the only way you can go there is with armed guards and bulletproof vans, forget it.


+1. I love Brazil as a race and would certainly have it amongst the first eight or so I'd pick for an ideal calendar, but if the safety of those attending the race can not only not be guaranteed, but actually regularly results in incidents like this then it is time to stop racing there. It's bad enough that people are getting threatened, having guns held to their heads, etc.; why do we have to wait until someone actually gets hurt, or even worse?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:32 pm 
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McLaren and Pirelli canceled testing at Interlagos this week. Message has to be sent to the government of Brazil that this can not go on.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one-brazil-grand-prix-may-be-axed-after-armed-gangs-attack-members-of-five-different-teams/news-story/3bc3e1e2a197bd251d033b77b34c25c0


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:46 pm 
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As bad as this is, you can't blame the FIAor the circuit security measures if it happens outside the circuit! As others have said,the only people you can blame is the Brazilian government and the people who were responsible.

Slightly click bait thread title too. Hamilton wasn't involved and it was the tram bus, not his bus. Don't want to trivialise the issue, but I do wish people wouldn't sensationalise things. We get enough of that in the media already.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:15 pm 
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minchy wrote:
Slightly click bait thread title too. Hamilton wasn't involved and it was the tram bus, not his bus. Don't want to trivialise the issue, but I do wish people wouldn't sensationalise things. We get enough of that in the media already.

Fixed

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:32 pm 
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minchy wrote:
As bad as this is, you can't blame the FIA or the circuit security measures if it happens outside the circuit! As others have said,the only people you can blame is the Brazilian government and the people who were responsible.

Slightly click bait thread title too. Hamilton wasn't involved and it was the tram bus, not his bus. Don't want to trivialise the issue, but I do wish people wouldn't sensationalise things. We get enough of that in the media already.

Sorry but I disagree with you 100% there.

IF this was a once off occurrence, maybe I'd agree with you. However, this is somethign that happens EACH AND EVERY YEAR and because the FIA and the circuit are well aware of it, it is incumbent on them to provide better security both inside and outside of the circuit as well as to and from the circuit on any major routes to ensure this type of thing doesn't "continue" to happen.

Because we all know their government and local law enforcement are corrupt and allow this stuff to happen, the responsibility then falls on the event organizers because they are the ones making all the money from the event and they should only put on such an event, only if they are willing to at least try and better protect the people attending said event(s). I mean if the teams who participate int he sport aren't safe, imagine how much worse it is for the fans.

I say if this is being sold as "Just how it is" then the FIA has a duty to their fans to not hold races there or anywhere where similar dangers are "Just how it is".

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:53 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Time to hire 'SECURITY' for transportation to and from the track for all race connected personnel.

It seems so simple but, somehow the planning folks overlooked this small inconvenience yet again. I DO give courses on risk management and, perhaps more importantly in this case, risk assessment.

FYI Jens-sica was robbed in France.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:41 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
minchy wrote:
As bad as this is, you can't blame the FIA or the circuit security measures if it happens outside the circuit! As others have said,the only people you can blame is the Brazilian government and the people who were responsible.

Slightly click bait thread title too. Hamilton wasn't involved and it was the tram bus, not his bus. Don't want to trivialise the issue, but I do wish people wouldn't sensationalise things. We get enough of that in the media already.

Sorry but I disagree with you 100% there.

IF this was a once off occurrence, maybe I'd agree with you. However, this is somethign that happens EACH AND EVERY YEAR and because the FIA and the circuit are well aware of it, it is incumbent on them to provide better security both inside and outside of the circuit as well as to and from the circuit on any major routes to ensure this type of thing doesn't "continue" to happen.

Because we all know their government and local law enforcement are corrupt and allow this stuff to happen, the responsibility then falls on the event organizers because they are the ones making all the money from the event and they should only put on such an event, only if they are willing to at least try and better protect the people attending said event(s). I mean if the teams who participate int he sport aren't safe, imagine how much worse it is for the fans.

I say if this is being sold as "Just how it is" then the FIA has a duty to their fans to not hold races there or anywhere where similar dangers are "Just how it is".

I think my response would be look at your tickets to motorsporting events, FIA sanctioned or not, they all say something along the lines of - motor sport is inherently dangerous, serious injury or death could occur when spectating. By attending the event you are acknowledging the risks involved and the promotors, organisers and governing body take no responsibility to any injury you may sustain whilst attending this event.

If it is acceptable for them to have no responsibility for spectators at the venue, why do you think they are responsible for the teams and staff in transit to and from it? If they do feel they should make new arrangements for this, then shouldn't they also be responsible for each and every spectator not only at the venue but also when they are transit themselves?

Or maybe they should go the way that I have seen some American colleges going in the news when a speaker there may attract violent protests - the speaker, not the establishment, must pay for extra police presence/personal protection or they are not able to attend.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Yes, it is a human tragedy that so much violent crime is there. It is also a human tragedy that the track is surrounded by slums.

So you have a neighborhood riddled by poverty and crime, and smack dab in the middle is a facility where people of wealth come and go. Even some criminals are smart enough to figure out that if they staked out the track, they would probably be able to rob some group of people entering or leaving the facility.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:02 pm 
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minchy wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
minchy wrote:
As bad as this is, you can't blame the FIA or the circuit security measures if it happens outside the circuit! As others have said,the only people you can blame is the Brazilian government and the people who were responsible.

Slightly click bait thread title too. Hamilton wasn't involved and it was the tram bus, not his bus. Don't want to trivialise the issue, but I do wish people wouldn't sensationalise things. We get enough of that in the media already.

Sorry but I disagree with you 100% there.

IF this was a once off occurrence, maybe I'd agree with you. However, this is somethign that happens EACH AND EVERY YEAR and because the FIA and the circuit are well aware of it, it is incumbent on them to provide better security both inside and outside of the circuit as well as to and from the circuit on any major routes to ensure this type of thing doesn't "continue" to happen.

Because we all know their government and local law enforcement are corrupt and allow this stuff to happen, the responsibility then falls on the event organizers because they are the ones making all the money from the event and they should only put on such an event, only if they are willing to at least try and better protect the people attending said event(s). I mean if the teams who participate int he sport aren't safe, imagine how much worse it is for the fans.

I say if this is being sold as "Just how it is" then the FIA has a duty to their fans to not hold races there or anywhere where similar dangers are "Just how it is".

I think my response would be look at your tickets to motorsporting events, FIA sanctioned or not, they all say something along the lines of - motor sport is inherently dangerous, serious injury or death could occur when spectating. By attending the event you are acknowledging the risks involved and the promotors, organisers and governing body take no responsibility to any injury you may sustain whilst attending this event.

If it is acceptable for them to have no responsibility for spectators at the venue, why do you think they are responsible for the teams and staff in transit to and from it? If they do feel they should make new arrangements for this, then shouldn't they also be responsible for each and every spectator not only at the venue but also when they are transit themselves?

Or maybe they should go the way that I have seen some American colleges going in the news when a speaker there may attract violent protests - the speaker, not the establishment, must pay for extra police presence/personal protection or they are not able to attend.

Looks to me like you don't know how that fine print actually works. While it is literally hard printed on the tickets, in the event something does happen and someone is injured, or worse, killed, the incident would be reviewed and investigated thoroughly to figure out why and how it happened to figure out if the end result was due to negligence to some degree. If and when an oversight or protective device failed to perform as it is said to, then the track and the FIA can and would get sued, and any judicial system would agree such a case would need to be heard in court.

The greatest example of this is Senna's death in how Italian law superseded whatever fancy speak was written in FIA and track documents and everyone was summoned to court. The only reason no one did time was because of the missing footage at the time the car veered off the road and immediately after. HAd that footage not been destroyed, there's a very good possibility, probability even, that either the team would have been found 100% liable, and someone would have done jail time. Mind you, this was a willing participant in the event.

That being the case, how well do you think those disclaimers are in protecting the FIA as well as the circuits? I'll tell you how well… Depends on the available evidence and how good the lawyers are.

I've been designing tickets and collateral for 2.5 decades now and you would probably be surprised to learn that the vast majority of them aren't even legal because they exceed the minimum font size allowable by law, so therefore all a plaintiff has to do is raise the point it was far too small to read, and if and when it is measured and found to be outside of the legal parameters, said party is in a heap of trouble. Here int he U.S. 7 points is the smallest allowable size, but companies cleverly circumvent this by utilizing fonts that exceed this minimum size even though they are set at the 7 point minimum. That's where a responsible designer needs to make a decision. Personally I always use the same font for disclaimers and I know it to be one of the fonts that set the benchmark along with Helvetica, so every disclaimer I've ever done is 100% in accordance to the law.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Bad, but has been the norm for many years. Brundles time at Mclaren the minibus was held up, ?Buttons mechanics were too. I have to wonder why the do not travel with an escorted convoy? I would have thought the teams would insist on it.


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