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What would Mercedes do?
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Author:  Black_Flag_11 [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  What would Mercedes do?

It’s the final race in Abu Dhabi and Mercedes are running a comfortable one-two with Hamilton leading from Bottas and Vettel in a comfortable P3.

As it stands Vettel will finish the season 3 points ahead of Bottas and take 2nd in the WDC.

Would Mercedes swap Hamilton and Bottas to secure second place in the championship for Bottas?

Author:  owenmahamilton [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Voted no as Bottas has not driven well enough to merit finishing second.

Author:  Lotus49 [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

I don't think they'd take a win away from Lewis so voted No.

If they could get Bottas 2nd by moving Lewis out of the way in any other position I think they might but it's hard to tell how much they or even Bottas care about finishing 2nd.

Webber and Barrichello didn't need to finish 2nd for those era's to be regarded as Ferrari/RB dominated so Mercedes may not care in the slightest as it wont make it anymore impressive or well regarded I don't think.

Author:  Exediron [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Nope. Keeping Hamilton happy is a lot more important than having a 1-2 in the WDC.

Author:  Fiki [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Yes. Bigger Christmas bonus...

Author:  Mort Canard [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Another option than what's presented in the poll, Lewis may gift the win to Valtteri on his own if the right situation presents itself. Hopefully not as blatantly as M. Schumacher did for Ruebens Barichello in the 2002 US Gran Prix.

Author:  lamo [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Im not sure what they would do, its prestige of the 2x 1-2 Vs the dirtiness of direct team orders for a race win. Team orders are unpopular, but when its for a race win - it's 10x more unpopular.

If this scenario unfolded and it was to switch Lewis/Val around for 2nd/3rd then I think they would do it. Everybody would be a winner and Lewis would get to pay Val back for driving so well in Russia and Austria as well as the helping hand holding Seb up in Spain.

Author:  Alienturnedhuman [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

In order to Bottas to get 2nd in the WDC he needs 15 points more than Vettel over the next two races, and the only way Mercedes can guarantee that is with Bottas winning both races, and with one of those being a Merc 1-2.

I don't think there is much marketing benefit to also getting 2nd. I think there is more marketability to Hamilton getting 10+
races in the season, and Hamilton chasing Schumacher's records.

While Schumacher is legendary, Schumacher in a Ferrari is more legendary - it was that ultimate pairing that led to the greatest domination in the sport's history. I think Mercedes would rather take the fight to that with Hamilton than worry about who came runner up, especially when they won.

People will remember Kimi finishing second to Alonso in 2005, or Massa to Hamilton in 2008 than Barrichello to Schumacher in 2002 and 2004 or Patrese to Mansell in 1992.

Author:  Blinky McSquinty [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.

Author:  Mort Canard [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.


The way I see it is that if Seb finished at least 2nd in both races, then there is nothing that Valtteri can do to get into second. If Valtteri wins both races and Seb comes 2nd and 3rd then Valtteri gets second in the championship.

Author:  Zoue [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

lamo wrote:
Im not sure what they would do, its prestige of the 2x 1-2 Vs the dirtiness of direct team orders for a race win. Team orders are unpopular, but when its for a race win - it's 10x more unpopular.

If this scenario unfolded and it was to switch Lewis/Val around for 2nd/3rd then I think they would do it. Everybody would be a winner and Lewis would get to pay Val back for driving so well in Russia and Austria as well as the helping hand holding Seb up in Spain.

I think few, beyond hard core fans, really care much, if at all, about the dirtiness of team orders. Certainly from a marketing perspective I think a team like Mercedes would take a 1-2 clean sweep over the risk of fallout from dirty orders any day of the week. The record books will still show utter dominance.

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with others that there is probably more marketing value in Hamilton's records now than in tying up 2nd in the WDC, since the majority of those records will be associated with Mercedes anyway

Author:  Syholl [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Hadn’t Lewis already said he will help Bottas as much as he can?

Author:  TypingChicane [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

As far as I know, team orders for first place or not allowed anymore. So no, in the situation of the OP, Mercedes will follow the rules and let Lewis take the win.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

TypingChicane wrote:
As far as I know, team orders for first place or not allowed anymore. So no, in the situation of the OP, Mercedes will follow the rules and let Lewis take the win.


What makes you think it would be against the rules?

Author:  TypingChicane [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

mikeyg123 wrote:
TypingChicane wrote:
As far as I know, team orders for first place or not allowed anymore. So no, in the situation of the OP, Mercedes will follow the rules and let Lewis take the win.


What makes you think it would be against the rules?

I thought that when they lifted the ban on team orders in 2010, an agreement was made that blatant swaps for the race win such as in Austria '02, were the only exception from the ban lift. But now that you are questioning this, I went looking for regulations or articles to back that up and couldn't find any. So yes, it seems the situation described in the OP would not be against the rules.

I still don't think that Mercedes would order the swap, openly or disguised. An image of correct sportsmanlike behaviour is more important to them than a second place in the WDC.

Author:  babararacucudada [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Based on the last race last year, Hamilton can do whatever he wants.

Will he want it to look like he had to battle hard for the Championship and be happy for Vettel to finish second in the World Championship with a closer gap? - or will he want to strengthen Bottas's position in the team and make it look like the car was a bigger factor?

Author:  Laz_T800 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Lewis will win both races if he is in the position to do so. If Bottas wants 2nd in the WDC he'll have to do it on merit.

Author:  Clarky [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

babararacucudada wrote:
Based on the last race last year, Hamilton can do whatever he wants.

Will he want it to look like he had to battle hard for the Championship and be happy for Vettel to finish second in the World Championship with a closer gap? - or will he want to strengthen Bottas's position in the team and make it look like the car was a bigger factor?

What when he was going for the Championship?

Author:  TheGiantHogweed [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Well I think that if Mercedes are ahead of Red Bull and Ferrari by a safe margin during the race, then if Bottas isn't already ahead of Hamilton, I think it will be nice of Hamilton to do this. But he shouldn't have any right to. If it is at all risky to allow Bottas through and loose more than one position, Hamilton shouldn't risk allowing this.

Author:  BMWSauber84 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

To.have Hamilton nursemaid Bottas to P2 in the championship would have a negative impact on the morale of both. Toto might as well pat Bottas on the head and give him a lollipop for being a 'bwave wickle' runner up. It would be patronizing in the extreme.

Author:  mcdo [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

I think they'd swap. And I think Lewis would oblige without much fuss

Author:  j man [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.

Since Toto Wolff took over, Mercedes have always taken a lot of pride on letting their drivers race each other and not orchestrating race results. Any team orders that have been applied have been with a view to maximising the team result in a race rather than any particular driver's result. Swapping the drivers over in such a manner when there are no more points to be gained seems to go against the 'fan-friendly' image that Mercedes have tried to craft for themselves as a race team. I think they'll let them race each other.

Author:  Zoue [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

j man wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.

Since Toto Wolff took over, Mercedes have always taken a lot of pride on letting their drivers race each other and not orchestrating race results. Any team orders that have been applied have been with a view to maximising the team result in a race rather than any particular driver's result. Swapping the drivers over in such a manner when there are no more points to be gained seems to go against the 'fan-friendly' image that Mercedes have tried to craft for themselves as a race team. I think they'll let them race each other.

I think that's a load of PR bull, myself. Until this year Mercedes have not been in a position where team orders were even remotely necessary. It would make no sense for them to court controversy in favouring one driver when neither title has been under any kind of serious threat. `This has somehow given rise to the legend that Mercedes plays fair, but I think that's a complete myth

Author:  pokerman [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.

Since Toto Wolff took over, Mercedes have always taken a lot of pride on letting their drivers race each other and not orchestrating race results. Any team orders that have been applied have been with a view to maximising the team result in a race rather than any particular driver's result. Swapping the drivers over in such a manner when there are no more points to be gained seems to go against the 'fan-friendly' image that Mercedes have tried to craft for themselves as a race team. I think they'll let them race each other.

I think that's a load of PR bull, myself. Until this year Mercedes have not been in a position where team orders were even remotely necessary. It would make no sense for them to court controversy in favouring one driver when neither title has been under any kind of serious threat. `This has somehow given rise to the legend that Mercedes plays fair, but I think that's a complete myth

How do you think that they haven't played fair this year?

Author:  Zoue [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO many replies to this post are from the perspective of devoted fans. But as I mentioned in another post, Mercedes spend over 350 million to look good. Not Lewis Hamilton, but rather Mercedes. And since for Mercedes this is basically an exercise in advertising, a clean sweep of the WCC, and both cars finishing 1 - 2 in the WDC would make the advertising executives back in Stuttgart pleased that the money they approved has delivered a return on investment.

A month ago Vettel seemed untouchable but his back results have given Bottas a very real shot at securing second. But since Vettel is 15 points ahead, Bottas needs to win both races and Vettel can not finish better than third.

Since Toto Wolff took over, Mercedes have always taken a lot of pride on letting their drivers race each other and not orchestrating race results. Any team orders that have been applied have been with a view to maximising the team result in a race rather than any particular driver's result. Swapping the drivers over in such a manner when there are no more points to be gained seems to go against the 'fan-friendly' image that Mercedes have tried to craft for themselves as a race team. I think they'll let them race each other.

I think that's a load of PR bull, myself. Until this year Mercedes have not been in a position where team orders were even remotely necessary. It would make no sense for them to court controversy in favouring one driver when neither title has been under any kind of serious threat. `This has somehow given rise to the legend that Mercedes plays fair, but I think that's a complete myth

How do you think that they haven't played fair this year?

you'll note I said until this year?

Point is Mercedes are no more or less likely to impose team orders than anyone else.

Author:  kleefton [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

I just don't think that is how Mercedes operates. They like fair racing, encourage fair racing. Yes, 1-2s are nice and look good in the record books, but I don' t think Mercedes have ever shown that they value them over fair racing. To steal a term from our late friend POBratings, the Mercedes-Bottas package have clearly been not as good as the Ferrari-Vettel package. So it does not deserve to finish ahead in the standings imo. To manufacture this outcome would yield nothing less than a simply tainted result. Even if Bottas was to win the last 2 races and finish second in the standings, it wouldn't tell the true story of what happened all year. I think Merc ought to respect that fact and let the chips fall where they may at the remaining 2 races.

Author:  MasterRacer [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Well Hamilton went further than anyone expected in qualifying today to help Val ;)

Author:  Mort Canard [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

MasterRacer wrote:
Well Hamilton went further than anyone expected in qualifying today to help Val ;)



Certainly solves the problem of whether Lewis would want to back off and give Valtteri P1.

Author:  lamo [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

kleefton wrote:
I just don't think that is how Mercedes operates. They like fair racing, encourage fair racing. Yes, 1-2s are nice and look good in the record books, but I don' t think Mercedes have ever shown that they value them over fair racing. To steal a term from our late friend POBratings, the Mercedes-Bottas package have clearly been not as good as the Ferrari-Vettel package. So it does not deserve to finish ahead in the standings imo. To manufacture this outcome would yield nothing less than a simply tainted result. Even if Bottas was to win the last 2 races and finish second in the standings, it wouldn't tell the true story of what happened all year. I think Merc ought to respect that fact and let the chips fall where they may at the remaining 2 races.


Hamilton let Rosberg by in a race in 2013.
Hamilton was asked to also let him by in Hungary 2014.
Rosberg asked to let Hamilton by in Monaco 2016.

Mercedes operate to maximise the race result, like nearly all the teams on the grid with the possible exception of Ferrari who generally aim to maximise the number 1 driver since they have tended to operate with 2 drivers of diffferent levels of talent since the mid nineties (Massa and Kimi aside, although Kimi was signed to fill this number 1 role but wasn't good enough)

Author:  pokerman [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Mort Canard wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Well Hamilton went further than anyone expected in qualifying today to help Val ;)



Certainly solves the problem of whether Lewis would want to back off and give Valtteri P1.

Yeah apparently he was at risk of being hung, drawn and quartered. ;)

Author:  BMWSauber84 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

MasterRacer wrote:
Well Hamilton went further than anyone expected in qualifying today to help Val ;)


Probably a good thing seeing as he's on his last warning. That spin might have just secured him a Mercedes seat for 2018 :lol:

Author:  Siao7 [ Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Lotus49 wrote:
I don't think they'd take a win away from Lewis so voted No.

If they could get Bottas 2nd by moving Lewis out of the way in any other position I think they might but it's hard to tell how much they or even Bottas care about finishing 2nd.

Webber and Barrichello didn't need to finish 2nd for those era's to be regarded as Ferrari/RB dominated so Mercedes may not care in the slightest as it wont make it anymore impressive or well regarded I don't think.


When did Webber finish second in the WDC?

Author:  Zoue [ Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I don't think they'd take a win away from Lewis so voted No.

If they could get Bottas 2nd by moving Lewis out of the way in any other position I think they might but it's hard to tell how much they or even Bottas care about finishing 2nd.

Webber and Barrichello didn't need to finish 2nd for those era's to be regarded as Ferrari/RB dominated so Mercedes may not care in the slightest as it wont make it anymore impressive or well regarded I don't think.


When did Webber finish second in the WDC?

I think the point was that he didn't, but people still view RB as dominant between 2010-2013. So having Bottas get 2nd wouldn't necessarily change people's perceptions of Mercedes and might therefore not be such a big priority for them

Author:  Siao7 [ Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I don't think they'd take a win away from Lewis so voted No.

If they could get Bottas 2nd by moving Lewis out of the way in any other position I think they might but it's hard to tell how much they or even Bottas care about finishing 2nd.

Webber and Barrichello didn't need to finish 2nd for those era's to be regarded as Ferrari/RB dominated so Mercedes may not care in the slightest as it wont make it anymore impressive or well regarded I don't think.


When did Webber finish second in the WDC?

I think the point was that he didn't, but people still view RB as dominant between 2010-2013. So having Bottas get 2nd wouldn't necessarily change people's perceptions of Mercedes and might therefore not be such a big priority for them

Serves me right not finishing reading the sentence!! I stopped after I read Webber 2nd, thinking when did that happen??? Apologies Lotus49, ta Zoue

Author:  Zoue [ Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I don't think they'd take a win away from Lewis so voted No.

If they could get Bottas 2nd by moving Lewis out of the way in any other position I think they might but it's hard to tell how much they or even Bottas care about finishing 2nd.

Webber and Barrichello didn't need to finish 2nd for those era's to be regarded as Ferrari/RB dominated so Mercedes may not care in the slightest as it wont make it anymore impressive or well regarded I don't think.


When did Webber finish second in the WDC?

I think the point was that he didn't, but people still view RB as dominant between 2010-2013. So having Bottas get 2nd wouldn't necessarily change people's perceptions of Mercedes and might therefore not be such a big priority for them

Serves me right not finishing reading the sentence!! I stopped after I read Webber 2nd, thinking when did that happen??? Apologies Lotus49, ta Zoue

:thumbup:

Author:  Yellowbin74 [ Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Had the need occured, I don't think Lewis would have had a massive issue in moving over. He knows he has Bottas covered most weeks so play the team game.

Or do a Schumacher - be so far in front that it's impossible to issue the order lol.

Author:  quere [ Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

As of now, Bottas would need to win at Abu Dhabi with Vettel 9th or lower. It is my view that if, say, Hamilton were to be leading Bottas with Vettel 9th or lower (and with no realistic prospect of improving his finishing position), Hamilton would let Bottas pass him for the win without the team in any way pressuring him to do so.

This would not be especially charitable; it would, rather, cement his position as top dog in the team.

Author:  Ennis [ Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

Yellowbin74 wrote:
Had the need occured, I don't think Lewis would have had a massive issue in moving over. He knows he has Bottas covered most weeks so play the team game.

Or do a Schumacher - be so far in front that it's impossible to issue the order lol.


I get the feeling that these numbers have started to become more important to Hamilton as he gets older. I think even if he finishes 2nd to Schumacher in the numbers, he wants to be a very clear 2nd and stay that way for as long as possible. I'd be surprised if Mercedes even try to get him to move aside.

For the comment above regarding PR for Mercedes, I think its short-sighted to believe that Bottas finishing 2nd really makes much difference at all. I think its even more short-sighted to believe that Mercedes would want the relatively negative PR associated with doing some team-ordering to make it happen.

Author:  moby [ Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

What would look better for Merc in the press and the history books? Nailed on 1-2 for merc again.

Author:  TheGiantHogweed [ Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Mercedes do?

quere wrote:
As of now, Bottas would need to win at Abu Dhabi with Vettel 9th or lower. It is my view that if, say, Hamilton were to be leading Bottas with Vettel 9th or lower (and with no realistic prospect of improving his finishing position), Hamilton would let Bottas pass him for the win without the team in any way pressuring him to do so.

This would not be especially charitable; it would, rather, cement his position as top dog in the team.

If that was the case, I think Hamilton would do that out of his own choice. It does seem him and Bottas get on far better than him and Rosberg. Some say, it may be because Hamilton feels unchallenged most of the time, but I only think that is part of the reason. Off track, they reflect and show their respect on each others drives and performances far more than when Rosberg and Hamilton were together. This is one of the areas that is better about this combination of drivers compared to last year. I don't know what it was, but it did seem that the tension between Hamilton and Rosberg caused problems occasionally. Such as twice last year. Spain was a double DNF and in Austria, Rosberg did a really stupid move on Hamilton that I don't think Bottas would ever attempt. These sorts of things really can deduct points on the constructors championship. And in terms of getting points for the team, Bottas has done really well this year and got 45% of them so far in his first year with the team.

I think it is unlikely that Vettel will have any problems in securing 2nd in the championship but I hope Bottas can still put in his best performance possible and at least beat Vettel.

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