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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:55 am 
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There wasn't a thread on him, so created one.

Must admit, I've become a fan of this charismatic but fiesty driver. Force India were clever to snap him up. He's come up to pace such that in the last 3 races, he's finished ahead of Perez. He's finished all races this year & not scored points only in Monaco.

He's bound to only improve & is quite a potential candidate for Mercedes in 2019.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:16 am 
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I want to become a fan of Ocon but I just don't see him as a great talent. To me he is probably a Button type character who would win a title with a lot of luck in the right circumstances. He wouldn't be my pick to replace Hamilton at Mercedes and lead the team for example. He should be faster than Perez in race pace by now in his 27 races. I mean how much more time do you need against a not so special Perez? He should be showing clear daylight between himself and Perez and giving Toto no choice but to put him in the Merc in the near future. He was clearly beaten by Pascal last year as well and that says to me he is not championship material.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:15 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
I want to become a fan of Ocon but I just don't see him as a great talent. To me he is probably a Button type character who would win a title with a lot of luck in the right circumstances. He wouldn't be my pick to replace Hamilton at Mercedes and lead the team for example. He should be faster than Perez in race pace by now in his 27 races. I mean how much more time do you need against a not so special Perez? He should be showing clear daylight between himself and Perez and giving Toto no choice but to put him in the Merc in the near future. He was clearly beaten by Pascal last year as well and that says to me he is not championship material.

He is faster than Perez now, and Perez - while perhaps now 'special' depending on how you define it - is easily in the upper half of the grid. If Ocon is faster than him, he's probably somewhere right below the top five right now (with maybe Sainz ahead of him).

That aside, it's still his first season. If he hasn't put daylight between himself and Perez by next year, you may have a point.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:29 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
I want to become a fan of Ocon but I just don't see him as a great talent. To me he is probably a Button type character who would win a title with a lot of luck in the right circumstances. He wouldn't be my pick to replace Hamilton at Mercedes and lead the team for example. He should be faster than Perez in race pace by now in his 27 races. I mean how much more time do you need against a not so special Perez? He should be showing clear daylight between himself and Perez and giving Toto no choice but to put him in the Merc in the near future. He was clearly beaten by Pascal last year as well and that says to me he is not championship material.


Was he clearly beaten by Pascal? He came in at over the halfway point of the season so was obviously going to take some time to adapt. By the end of the season he had Wehrlein beat.

Perez is no mug and is firmly established at Force India. I personally think the signs are promising for Ocon.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:56 am 
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He's looking good. He is now quicker than Perez and I would expect him to get quicker as most drivers do in their second season. I'd put him and Perez as the two best drivers outside the big 5 and that's a huge achievement for a rookie to be rated up so high already.

I think people expect to much of rookie's sometimes. Bottas is the only driver on the current grid to outscore an experienced team mate in his rookie year. People forget that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:16 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
I want to become a fan of Ocon but I just don't see him as a great talent. To me he is probably a Button type character who would win a title with a lot of luck in the right circumstances. He wouldn't be my pick to replace Hamilton at Mercedes and lead the team for example. He should be faster than Perez in race pace by now in his 27 races. I mean how much more time do you need against a not so special Perez? He should be showing clear daylight between himself and Perez and giving Toto no choice but to put him in the Merc in the near future. He was clearly beaten by Pascal last year as well and that says to me he is not championship material.


Well, in case you don't know, he didn't even properly fit the Marussia in 2016, his head even covering parts of the airbox. Therefore, a failed comparison to me, especially when you bear in mind that Pascal had tested and raced the car theoughout the entire season and the Marussia car never really got the opportunity to charge gor point scoring positions except maybe Brazil in which I felt that Esteban did a great race nonetheless.
Besides - Pascal imho is heavily underrated. He was there to pick up points when they were there for the taking in Austria 2016 and Spain this year, which is exactly what you would expect from an upcoming talent (Bianchi and Monaco 2014). So, even if you consider Wehrlein beating him, that to me doesn't put Esteban in a negative light necessarily.

Also, what you should consider is that the gap to Perez wasn't large to begin with (unlike other drivers) and has continuously reduced to the point where Esteban has had him covered for the past couple of races. I don't see what else he could do, except continuing in that manner for the last two races of the season and more beatings next year.

Is he a star of the future? Well, performance shows him to be on an above level to JB now, and that is quite something to me. Bear in mind that the longer 2013 lasted and Perez had aclimatized better, he more often than not defeated JB on raw speed and also in the races. But his oerformance growth over the next years will show whether Esteban has really got it in him. In the meantime, I'll ejnjoy his mature head (VES anyone?), feisty racing and reliable point scoring.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:33 am 
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Well I think Ocon is a little overrated at the moment. People saying he's faster than Perez surely are just basing it on very recent races. Perez has looked better on the whole and although Ocon has looked better recntly, that isn't enough to me to claim he is faster or better than Perez. Both Perez and Ocon have had bad races this year. Both looked a bit clumsy in Monaco. Ocon made a bg mistake in Baku. Perez did in Belgium too. People will disagree here, but I think Bottas is on the whole, more solid and consistent than them both. Hamiltons recent form is just making Bottas look worse than he is. I also don't get how some can rate Sainz so high this season. He only just makes it into the top 10 IMO, He's caused more retirements than any other driver and caused his own retirement 3 times which is no better than Ericsson. His pace may be good, but the amount of mistakes he's made this season makes me rate him a lot lower. I do believe however that he is actually very good, just not as good as many think. Lets remember that Kvyat has nearly matched him in qualifying.

More about Ocon, he has been pretty solid, but in comparison to drivers like Massa, he has been pretty lucky in terms of reliability. Massa would almost certainly be ahead of Ocon in the standings if it wasn't for all his slow punctures, reliability problems and other drivers taking him out. I'd even say Massa has made less mistakes than Ocon. Not that he's better, but I don't think Massa souldn't be capable of another year. He's had a very solid year.

I think I would probably rate Ocon about the 8th best driver based on this season.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:38 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well I think Ocon is a little overrated at the moment. People saying he's faster than Perez surely are just basing it on very recent races. Perez has looked better on the whole and although Ocon has looked better recntly, that isn't enough to me to claim he is faster or better than Perez. Both Perez and Ocon have had bad races this year. Both looked a bit clumsy in Monaco. Ocon made a bg mistake in Baku. Perez did in Belgium too. People will disagree here, but I think Bottas is on the whole, more solid and consistent than them both. Hamiltons recent form is just making Bottas look worse than he is. I also don't get how some can rate Sainz so high this season. He only just makes it into the top 10 IMO, He's caused more retirements than any other driver and caused his own retirement 3 times which is no better than Ericsson. His pace may be good, but the amount of mistakes he's made this season makes me rate him a lot lower. I do believe however that he is actually very good, just not as good as many think. Lets remember that Kvyat has nearly matched him in qualifying.

More about Ocon, he has been pretty solid, but in comparison to drivers like Massa, he has been pretty lucky in terms of reliability. Massa would almost certainly be ahead of Ocon in the standings if it wasn't for all his slow punctures, reliability problems and other drivers taking him out. I'd even say Massa has made less mistakes than Ocon. Not that he's better, but I don't think Massa souldn't be capable of another year. He's had a very solid year.

I think I would probably rate Ocon about the 8th best driver based on this season.


Which is pretty bloody good for a rookie. I'd have him 7th probably.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:53 am 
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The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:57 am 
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Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


His racing remains commendable for the most part, but psychologically what he's shown has been a real eye-opener and it's persisting even late into the season (desperately asking Ocon to move out of the way when in fact he had worse pace, as we were to find out). So basically it's his panicked handling of pressure and competition from the young upstart that raises a red flag for me despite still thinking that his driving talent remains top-8 on the grid. I don't see potential WDC temperament there. That's not to say it can't change though if given the chance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:13 am 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


His racing remains commendable for the most part, but psychologically what he's shown has been a real eye-opener and it's persisting even late into the season (desperately asking Ocon to move out of the way when in fact he had worse pace, as we were to find out). So basically it's his panicked handling of pressure and competition from the young upstart that raises a red flag for me despite still thinking that his driving talent remains top-8 on the grid. I don't see potential WDC temperament there. That's not to say it can't change though if given the chance.


OK, that sounds fair. I don't think he looks like a WDC but I would like to see him a top car against a top driver. I think he's worth a look.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well I think Ocon is a little overrated at the moment. People saying he's faster than Perez surely are just basing it on very recent races. Perez has looked better on the whole and although Ocon has looked better recntly, that isn't enough to me to claim he is faster or better than Perez. Both Perez and Ocon have had bad races this year. Both looked a bit clumsy in Monaco. Ocon made a bg mistake in Baku. Perez did in Belgium too. People will disagree here, but I think Bottas is on the whole, more solid and consistent than them both. Hamiltons recent form is just making Bottas look worse than he is. I also don't get how some can rate Sainz so high this season. He only just makes it into the top 10 IMO, He's caused more retirements than any other driver and caused his own retirement 3 times which is no better than Ericsson. His pace may be good, but the amount of mistakes he's made this season makes me rate him a lot lower. I do believe however that he is actually very good, just not as good as many think. Lets remember that Kvyat has nearly matched him in qualifying.

More about Ocon, he has been pretty solid, but in comparison to drivers like Massa, he has been pretty lucky in terms of reliability. Massa would almost certainly be ahead of Ocon in the standings if it wasn't for all his slow punctures, reliability problems and other drivers taking him out. I'd even say Massa has made less mistakes than Ocon. Not that he's better, but I don't think Massa souldn't be capable of another year. He's had a very solid year.

I think I would probably rate Ocon about the 8th best driver based on this season.


Which is pretty bloody good for a rookie. I'd have him 7th probably.

For a rookie, I can say he is really good indeed. But I don't think he's yet quite as good as many are suggesting.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:52 pm 
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He'll replace Bottas in 2019 if he continues his improvement in 2018.

I don't think it's a coincidence that he has the measure of Perez now we're returning to tracks he's raced in last year.

His drive in Brazil last year is also very under-appreciated, he had a Manor in a position it had no right being in.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:37 pm 
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He's a rookie and he's done well, he seems very mature for his age perhaps more mature than Perez?

I'm not sure beating Perez in recent races now sets the tone, such things can be cyclic in close match ups, overall Perez has been the better driver this season and while Perez is a top 10 driver he's still tier 2, the acid test for Ocon is next season and can he beat Perez otherwise you are looking at a future #2 driver for Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:32 pm 
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DNF ruins his series of finishes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:04 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
He'll replace Bottas in 2019 if he continues his improvement in 2018.

I don't think it's a coincidence that he has the measure of Perez now we're returning to tracks he's raced in last year.

His drive in Brazil last year is also very under-appreciated, he had a Manor in a position it had no right being in.


I don't think he'll replace Bottas that soon.

He's looking like a solid driver, but many rookies have good runs in their first year or two, then fail to deliver when the pressure is on. The Force India is quite a good car (with a very good engine) so he doesn't have a lot of pressure on him right now.

As for the 2019 Merc seat, he's going to have to compete with these guys: Bottas, Ricciardo, Alonso(?), Hulkenberg and Mercedes do tend to like experienced drivers.

Ricciardo is probably the most likely to get that ride.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:04 pm 
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He's one of my favorites.

Looking forward to next year with more experience under his belt.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
He's one of my favorites.

Looking forward to next year with more experience under his belt.


It's quite remarkable to know that his last retirement from a single seater car was in 2014!

He'll mainly have competition from Ricciardo for 2019 seat. Ocon is young so can afford to wait whereas Ricciardo can't.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:55 pm 
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One of the silent newcomers that looks like a star in making. Silent, humble and fast!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:58 pm 
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I have high hopes for Ocon. He has shown to be brilliantly consistent and delivers points nearly every time. While figuring out the new car, team, environment, etc. he came home consistently right behind his vastly more experienced teammate. Personally I give a driver half a season's grace period to gel with a new team - from around the 1/3 point of the season onwards Ocon properly started matching Perez

Spa was the first time that he raced on a circuit for a 2nd time. So in my book he's no longer a rookie. But I would say he has been the more impressive of the two since then

Someone saying above that he seems a Jenson Button-type driver. I'd say Ocon would take comparisons to a World Champion rather well. If that assessment is correct it bodes well for his future

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:08 am 
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mcdo wrote:
I have high hopes for Ocon. He has shown to be brilliantly consistent and delivers points nearly every time. While figuring out the new car, team, environment, etc. he came home consistently right behind his vastly more experienced teammate. Personally I give a driver half a season's grace period to gel with a new team - from around the 1/3 point of the season onwards Ocon properly started matching Perez


1/3rd point probably being Canada and a lost opportunity for podium, if only Perez hadn't been so hell-bent on defending harder against his own team mate than against other drivers.

I like Ocon, and he's doing very well - at this point he's probably already become better than Perez, who in turn beat Hulkenberg.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:10 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


His racing remains commendable for the most part, but psychologically what he's shown has been a real eye-opener and it's persisting even late into the season (desperately asking Ocon to move out of the way when in fact he had worse pace, as we were to find out). So basically it's his panicked handling of pressure and competition from the young upstart that raises a red flag for me despite still thinking that his driving talent remains top-8 on the grid. I don't see potential WDC temperament there. That's not to say it can't change though if given the chance.


OK, that sounds fair. I don't think he looks like a WDC but I would like to see him a top car against a top driver. I think he's worth a look.


I think his year at Mclaren in 2013 is quite telling : beaten by Button, and disappointing behaviour when confronted to a car that does not live up the expectations.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


His racing remains commendable for the most part, but psychologically what he's shown has been a real eye-opener and it's persisting even late into the season (desperately asking Ocon to move out of the way when in fact he had worse pace, as we were to find out). So basically it's his panicked handling of pressure and competition from the young upstart that raises a red flag for me despite still thinking that his driving talent remains top-8 on the grid. I don't see potential WDC temperament there. That's not to say it can't change though if given the chance.


OK, that sounds fair. I don't think he looks like a WDC but I would like to see him a top car against a top driver. I think he's worth a look.


I think his year at Mclaren in 2013 is quite telling : beaten by Button, and disappointing behaviour when confronted to a car that does not live up the expectations.


And you know what's even more frightening for Perez which he had admitted himself two or three grand prix weekends earlier.

He said that if the car is good, Ocon naturally does well but even when the car is not feeling right, he extracts performance from the car & delivers.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
The whole Ocon discussion has been interesting this year. There are some who seem to find him ordinary and chide him for not standing out in his rookie season against Perez and others who find it very noteworthy that he might already be a top 8 or so driver in his rookie season and already more or less Perez' equal - Perez being a driver many rate quite highly.

BTW Perez' reputation nosedived this year for me
.


How? It's probably been his best season.


His racing remains commendable for the most part, but psychologically what he's shown has been a real eye-opener and it's persisting even late into the season (desperately asking Ocon to move out of the way when in fact he had worse pace, as we were to find out). So basically it's his panicked handling of pressure and competition from the young upstart that raises a red flag for me despite still thinking that his driving talent remains top-8 on the grid. I don't see potential WDC temperament there. That's not to say it can't change though if given the chance.


OK, that sounds fair. I don't think he looks like a WDC but I would like to see him a top car against a top driver. I think he's worth a look.


I think his year at Mclaren in 2013 is quite telling : beaten by Button, and disappointing behaviour when confronted to a car that does not live up the expectations.


I think he's come on a lot since then and he wasn't far behind Button in the second half of the season. If he's as good as Button was then now then I think he's worth a look.


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