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Would you support Ferrari or let them go?
Do whatever it takes to keep Ferrari in the sport 25%  25%  [ 15 ]
Meh 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Let them go, the sport will get along without Ferrari. 53%  53%  [ 31 ]
Total votes : 59
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Blake wrote:
that nonsense between Ford and Ferrari was that while he initially agreed to sell Ferrari to Ford when Henry Jr. showed up with an batch of lawyers to finalize the deal, Enzo, with one lawyer present disagreed when he realized it meant that he would lose control of the racing team as well. So he chose not to sell the team that was his life.... Ford got mad and spent a fortune to beat Ferrari... a Ferrari that was having financial issues at the time, which is how the whole buyout came to be to begin with.

I am disappointed in your analysis, Blinky.
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they will run away when faced with a determined challenge

Run from it when things go bad? They went 22 years without an F1 championship... did they run away? No, they stuck to it and went on the longest run of success in the history of the sport. Now 10 removed from their last Championship, they are still in the sport. Is that running away? Were the great McLarens, Williams and Renaults of the 80s/90s not a determined challenge to them? Funny thing, I always thought those teams were tough to beat.

Yes, they have threatened to leave the sport if it goes the way that Liberty is putting out there, and why not? It is their right, and while many hear are talking big about the sport not missing or getting along without Ferrari, I think some of you are kidding yourselves. First of all, remember that thus far THREE of the four engine manufacturers have voiced their displeasure with the 2021 engine proposals... and it is unlikely that Honda looks forward to them as well. They talk of cutting the expense of the sport, but dictate a new engine design as of '21. Even Mercedes have commented on the expense of developing a new engine and they have a hell of a lot more money than does Ferrari... or likely Renault. If all of the manufacturers don't like the direction F1 is going, then perhaps Liberty should listen. At this time, Ferrari is just voicing their thoughts, and look at the hell they are catching for it. Yet, if they exercised the Veto, then most of the same critics would go ballistic with yet another thread and multiple pages of "favoritism" for Ferrari. So, instead, they should just take whatever is put out there... and be good quiet little boys.

Yeah, it is unlikely that Ferrari is going to leave the sport, but whether their critics like it or not, Ferrari is the most visible and powerful name in the sport. When they speak, Liberty best listen. The meeting next week is to discuss future engine proposals and see if an agreement can be reached. Ferrari has, in a very strong way, but their thoughts on the table. Thoughts, I might add, seem to reflect the thoughts of Mercedes and Renault when it comes to the suggested engine regulations. Should Ferrari leave over unfavorable engine regulations and the direction F1 is going, the sport might survive, but will it be the sport so many of you claim to love? Another thought, should Ferrari leave, will all the others stay? Does Mercedes stay if the biggest name in the sport is not there, and the engine regulations do not represent what Mercedes thinks F1 should be? Or does McLaren stay without Ferrari... it has been suggested in the past that if Ferrari left F1, McLaren might well do it to, as that is their real rival when they are faring better.

Now, about Ferrari suffering without F1, needing F1 more than F1 needs Ferrari? Perhaps, but probably not. As Marchionne said in the discussion where he suggested Ferrari might leave the sport...
The implications of Ferrari leaving F1 would "totally beneficial to the profit and loss", and claimed that "the board would be celebrating here until the cows come home" IE, the F1 team is an expensive proposition for even Ferrari. Endurance racing such as LeMans would be a much less expensive proposition, as would other racing series.

As Marchionne said, Ferrari doesn't want to leave the sport, but they always have that option. If you think that Ferrari will "die" without F1 since they don't advertise, remember that Lamborghini and other supercar exotic manufactures are not in F1 either, and they are surviving. Porsche is not in F1, and they certainly don't suffer greatly. As for the "free" advertising F1 brings Ferrari, there is nothing that says Ferrari could do something as crazy as pay for advertising if they felt it would be beneficial. Ferrari will be just fine, in F1 or out of it... but it definitely be more fun for all true F1 fans if they are on the track with the other F1 teams.

Well stated but 2 things…

Firstly Ferrari and F1 fans have been swayed to believe Ferrari IS F1 when in fact they are a part of it. The way people say it, F1 would cease to exist without The Prancing Horse, but I think these days the serious racing fans realize that Ferrari are not the best manufacturer participating in racing. Ferraris are entered in many series and they don't dominate in any of them that I am aware of. Ferrari's true bread and butter lies with their road car division because they have built a reputation and image that they are the ultimate in all things exotic supercars and that's never going to change.

The other thing I need to point out is that Marchionne is a pencil pushing corporate head for FIAT that has become the defacto guy in charge who has put a damn advertising dinosaur in charge of the most prestigious F1 brand in history. The fact they are doing well is in spite of both of them because NEITHER of them have any experience in motor anything.

He's a corporate accountant who analyzes numbers to deduce what is numerically presentable to his superiors in order to show them he's doing a stand up job. This is impractical in every facet of life, including business. Like some F1 fans they look ONLY at numbers and fail to see the big picture and their handy work leads to companies going out of business because their "findings" were not representative of the complete picture. I would be over the moon to see both of them shown the door so real minds can supervise their entire racing program.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


The reality is that F1, as a business, can be grown to double its current size with or without Ferrari.


Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this. It's not worth fighting to preserve the status quo in F1. There is massive room for improvement and that's where Liberty should be focused. I don't think Ferrari have any desire to erode their core value proposition by dropping out of F1. They are merely using the threat as a bargaining tool and Liberty should treat the situation accordingly. If Liberty are able to improve competitiveness and, by extension, improve the overall entertainment value of F1 while simultaneously taking advantage of the numerous avenues through which to engage fans that Bernie and CVC basically ignored; they can grow the business dramatically. I don't think most racing fans are overly wrapped up in some sort of brand loyalty to one company or another. While Ferrari do have a lot of fans, I doubt most of them would stop watching F1 if Ferrari dropped out. They would simply support another team. Meanwhile the massive amount of potential new fans from a more competitive and entertaining series that is marketed intelligently dwarfs the amount of Ferrari fans who are so brand-loyal as to stop watching F1 if Ferrari weren't a part of it anymore.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:19 am 
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:lol:

You all do realize that it is not only Ferrari that is not happy with the proposed engine regulations don't you? Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault have all voiced their concerns.

You all do realize that it is not only Ferrari that objects to the proposed budget cap, aren't you? At the least, Ferrari AND Mercedes are opposed to the cap as it is proposed.

Ferrari is voicing concerns about regulations that they feel would not represent F1, or Ferrari well., and they have support in it. Yes, they are the only ones who have threatened to leave the sport, but that does not mean that they are the only ones who would. If the sport does not feed into what the teams feel justifies their incredible investment, then it would be foolish to keep throwing money at it.

However, if some of you want to see a series of equal teams and near equal cars regulated to keep all things "equal", then I have no doubt it could be done, but is that what you really want. I rather doubt it. There has to be some degree of compromise and that is what I feel they will come up with, it is a process as it should be. Whether some like it or not, Ferrari is the most powerful team in F1, because, they bring the money into the sport like no other... and no, a bunch of Hamilton fashion in the stands at his home track is not indicative of the Ferrari drawing power world wide. As a result, they will indeed have a say in the discussions, and in some cases that we see this year, they will be supported by other powerful teams/manufacturers in F1. Will they get everything they want? I doubt it... but neither are we likely to see the proposed regulations at they are currently written.

I will say this though, I do believe that Marchionne is a different kind of leadership at Ferrari, and I think it might be a mistake to automatically believe that the threats are the usually positioning of the past and are hollow. I can't say that it doesn't concern me... I am not sure just how I would feel about things if the extreme happened beyond disappointment. That said, I respect that Ferrari feels that the sport, or any sport, needs to properly promote their brand... a very healthy brand. To those who think Ferrari will fade away or be anything less than the honored builder of exotic sports cars... you are kidding yourselves.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


The reality is that F1, as a business, can be grown to double its current size with or without Ferrari.


Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

Maybe 85% was a stretch but the couple of races I went to had probably 70%+ people in red. The other 30% was divided up among the other front teams, with the odd bit of midfield merch here and there

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:53 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


The reality is that F1, as a business, can be grown to double its current size with or without Ferrari.


Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

Maybe 85% was a stretch but the couple of races I went to had probably 70%+ people in red. The other 30% was divided up among the other front teams, with the odd bit of midfield merch here and there

I recently watched a podcast which confirmed what you said.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:14 pm 
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one thing f1 has to have their eye on is formulaE. i watched part of one race in berlin, that's it. at this point in time i have no interest in watching more of it(not bashing it-just lack of interest now)
but, there seems to be new manufacturers signing up for that series every month


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


The reality is that F1, as a business, can be grown to double its current size with or without Ferrari.


Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

Maybe 85% was a stretch but the couple of races I went to had probably 70%+ people in red. The other 30% was divided up among the other front teams, with the odd bit of midfield merch here and there

I recently watched a podcast which confirmed what you said.

I've been to a MotoGP race and the stands are mostly packed with Rossi fans in yellow. Does that mean that MotoGP should bend to Rossi's will? Should the direction fo the sport be dictated by Rossi?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/552 ... ari-quits/
Take a look at this survey from a couple of years back. Something like 22% of respondents said that they would stop watching F1 if Ferrari quit. The real question is; does the potential growth of the sport through the creation of a better competitive balance and improved marketing and access exceed this potential loss in existing viewers?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

Maybe 85% was a stretch but the couple of races I went to had probably 70%+ people in red. The other 30% was divided up among the other front teams, with the odd bit of midfield merch here and there

I recently watched a podcast which confirmed what you said.

I've been to a MotoGP race and the stands are mostly packed with Rossi fans in yellow. Does that mean that MotoGP should bend to Rossi's will? Should the direction fo the sport be dictated by Rossi?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/552 ... ari-quits/
Take a look at this survey from a couple of years back. Something like 22% of respondents said that they would stop watching F1 if Ferrari quit. The real question is; does the potential growth of the sport through the creation of a better competitive balance and improved marketing and access exceed this potential loss in existing viewers?

Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:37 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
one thing f1 has to have their eye on is formulaE. i watched part of one race in berlin, that's it. at this point in time i have no interest in watching more of it(not bashing it-just lack of interest now)
but, there seems to be new manufacturers signing up for that series every month


Formula E is something auto manufacturers are gravitating towards because it does have major relevance for the automotive world. And on a similar note, more teams are attempting to join the WEC GTE class.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar




That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:39 pm 
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_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar


That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

A totally meaningless point. Put Hamilton in a Ferrari at Silverstone and you would hard pressed to find patches that weren't red. Not all races are on a popular driver's home track...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:47 pm 
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_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar




That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

From my experience there are more Ferrari fans than fans of the other teams but Ferrari fans do not actually make up the majority of the crowd. Most people in the crowd are not fanatics like that to where you can see who they root for simply by looking at them.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar




That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

From my experience there are more Ferrari fans than fans of the other teams but Ferrari fans do not actually make up the majority of the crowd. Most people in the crowd are not fanatics like that to where you can see who they root for simply by looking at them.



This was the view from where we watched the race and i think that would agree with that posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srLxdPw ... e=youtu.be


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar


That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

A totally meaningless point. Put Hamilton in a Ferrari at Silverstone and you would hard pressed to find patches that weren't red. Not all races are on a popular driver's home track...




It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:28 pm 
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_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar


That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

A totally meaningless point. Put Hamilton in a Ferrari at Silverstone and you would hard pressed to find patches that weren't red. Not all races are on a popular driver's home track...




It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


Ok, whatever you say.
:lol:


You pick out Hamilton's home track and decide that is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races? You do realize that there are many more tracks that host races, don't you? You see it as you wish, rogue. It is still a meaningless example.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 am 
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Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Quote:
Not arguing that point. Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge. And yes, 46 at MotoGP is very similar


That certainly wasn't the case at Silverstone this year... If anything Ferrari fans were a minority.

A totally meaningless point. Put Hamilton in a Ferrari at Silverstone and you would hard pressed to find patches that weren't red. Not all races are on a popular driver's home track...




It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


Ok, whatever you say.
:lol:


You pick out Hamilton's home track and decide that is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races? You do realize that there are many more tracks that host races, don't you? You see it as you wish, rogue. It is still a meaningless example.



I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:16 am 
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_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:



It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


Ok, whatever you say.
:lol:


You pick out Hamilton's home track and decide that is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races? You do realize that there are many more tracks that host races, don't you? You see it as you wish, rogue. It is still a meaningless example.



I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.

Actually I don't think you were responding to a post of mine for starters... however, it doesn't change anything... your comment was and is meaningless in the context of the discussion. Were I to say that the large percentage of red at the GP at Monza it would be only relevant in context. A soccer/football match in Brazil featuring the home team would likely have a large percentage of yellow and green in the stands. It would be meaningless in a discussion of the popularity of Brazil internationally. This thread is about Ferrari.. like that is something new... and its place in F1... not about the Merc/Hamilton colors at Silverstone. In fact, if Ferrari was near the same or slightly above the numbers of Merc colors, then it actually is quite a statement in and of itself. To be that representative at Hamilton's home track. Just imagine how they must be represented on neutral tracks.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:04 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ludicrous. Have you ever been to an F1 race? Ever see anyone wearing red? 85% of the fans at an F1 race are FERRARI fans.

F1 would be a shell of its former self if Ferrari left.

What we have here is a failure of imagination. I think you are exaggerating the proportion of Ferrari fans quite grossly but your point is that Ferrari have the biggest fan base in F1. This is true but I think F1, as a whole, has a very small following relative to how large it could be. The gated community, exclusive manifestation of F1 is the one where Ferrari has had such a lopsided amount of power. It's also a sport which has almost perpetually faced issues with lack of competitiveness and subsequent lack of entertainment value.

Maybe 85% was a stretch but the couple of races I went to had probably 70%+ people in red. The other 30% was divided up among the other front teams, with the odd bit of midfield merch here and there

I recently watched a podcast which confirmed what you said.

I've been to a MotoGP race and the stands are mostly packed with Rossi fans in yellow. Does that mean that MotoGP should bend to Rossi's will? Should the direction fo the sport be dictated by Rossi?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/552 ... ari-quits/
Take a look at this survey from a couple of years back. Something like 22% of respondents said that they would stop watching F1 if Ferrari quit. The real question is; does the potential growth of the sport through the creation of a better competitive balance and improved marketing and access exceed this potential loss in existing viewers?

I was just confirming Ferrari's popularity, regarding Rossi quite a few were surprised he wasn't black flagged for the way he dumped Marquez on the floor in 2015.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:47 am 
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Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:



It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


Ok, whatever you say.
:lol:


You pick out Hamilton's home track and decide that is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races? You do realize that there are many more tracks that host races, don't you? You see it as you wish, rogue. It is still a meaningless example.



I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.

Actually I don't think you were responding to a post of mine for starters... however, it doesn't change anything... your comment was and is meaningless in the context of the discussion. Were I to say that the large percentage of red at the GP at Monza it would be only relevant in context. A soccer/football match in Brazil featuring the home team would likely have a large percentage of yellow and green in the stands. It would be meaningless in a discussion of the popularity of Brazil internationally. This thread is about Ferrari.. like that is something new... and its place in F1... not about the Merc/Hamilton colors at Silverstone. In fact, if Ferrari was near the same or slightly above the numbers of Merc colors, then it actually is quite a statement in and of itself. To be that representative at Hamilton's home track. Just imagine how they must be represented on neutral tracks.



It's a question of accuracy.. You made a sweeping statement that Ferrari fans were the vast majority at all Gp's and i merely pointed out that at the one Gp i had attended this year that was, in fact, incorrect. Regardless of your feeling that it is irrevalent it does not change that your original statement was incorrect and that was all i was pointing out. Ferrari fans were probably outnumbered by 2 or 3 to one i would guess and the video i posted from where i watched the race confirms this which also refutes your new statement that that they might have been the same or slightly more above Mercedes fans. The fact is the vast majority of the audience were probably relatively bi partisan by the numbers of fans that wore their team colours or more to the point not wore their team colours. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp and accept?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:50 am 
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_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:



It's not meaningless at all... You stated Ferrari fans were the vast majority at Gp races and that is patently not the case. Had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however.


Ok, whatever you say.
:lol:


You pick out Hamilton's home track and decide that is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races? You do realize that there are many more tracks that host races, don't you? You see it as you wish, rogue. It is still a meaningless example.



I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.

Actually I don't think you were responding to a post of mine for starters... however, it doesn't change anything... your comment was and is meaningless in the context of the discussion. Were I to say that the large percentage of red at the GP at Monza it would be only relevant in context. A soccer/football match in Brazil featuring the home team would likely have a large percentage of yellow and green in the stands. It would be meaningless in a discussion of the popularity of Brazil internationally. This thread is about Ferrari.. like that is something new... and its place in F1... not about the Merc/Hamilton colors at Silverstone. In fact, if Ferrari was near the same or slightly above the numbers of Merc colors, then it actually is quite a statement in and of itself. To be that representative at Hamilton's home track. Just imagine how they must be represented on neutral tracks.



It's a question of accuracy.. You made a sweeping statement that Ferrari fans were the vast majority at all Gp's and i merely pointed out that at the one Gp i had attended this year that was, in fact, incorrect. Regardless of your feeling that it is irrevalent it does not change that your original statement was incorrect and that was all i was pointing out. Ferrari fans were probably outnumbered by 2 or 3 to one i would guess and the video i posted from where i watched the race confirms this which also refutes your new statement that that they might have been the same or slightly more above Mercedes fans. The fact is the vast majority of the audience were probably relatively bi partisan by the numbers of fans that wore their team colours or more to the point not wore their team colours. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp and accept?

It's me who said it and I didn't say "all" GPs. So there's one race where it's not a red majority. Whoop-de-do

Williams - Mansell - Hill - McLaren - Coulthard - Button - Hamilton - Brawn. Eddie Irvine wasn't going to sway that crowd

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:24 am 
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I'm happy to stand corrected... my bad ... the point i was making and still is that you made the statement "Just that Ferrari fans at GPs are a vast majority over any other team. The proportion is huge." is incorrect in my experience. I have not nor did i imply that there wasn't a majority at other circuits just not at the circuit i visited this year.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:57 am 
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Happy to support Ferrari - but need to lose their unfair financial advantage


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:11 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:


I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.

Actually I don't think you were responding to a post of mine for starters... however, it doesn't change anything... your comment was and is meaningless in the context of the discussion. Were I to say that the large percentage of red at the GP at Monza it would be only relevant in context. A soccer/football match in Brazil featuring the home team would likely have a large percentage of yellow and green in the stands. It would be meaningless in a discussion of the popularity of Brazil internationally. This thread is about Ferrari.. like that is something new... and its place in F1... not about the Merc/Hamilton colors at Silverstone. In fact, if Ferrari was near the same or slightly above the numbers of Merc colors, then it actually is quite a statement in and of itself. To be that representative at Hamilton's home track. Just imagine how they must be represented on neutral tracks.



It's a question of accuracy.. You made a sweeping statement that Ferrari fans were the vast majority at all Gp's and i merely pointed out that at the one Gp i had attended this year that was, in fact, incorrect. Regardless of your feeling that it is irrevalent it does not change that your original statement was incorrect and that was all i was pointing out. Ferrari fans were probably outnumbered by 2 or 3 to one i would guess and the video i posted from where i watched the race confirms this which also refutes your new statement that that they might have been the same or slightly more above Mercedes fans. The fact is the vast majority of the audience were probably relatively bi partisan by the numbers of fans that wore their team colours or more to the point not wore their team colours. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp and accept?

It's me who said it and I didn't say "all" GPs. So there's one race where it's not a red majority. Whoop-de-do

Williams - Mansell - Hill - McLaren - Coulthard - Button - Hamilton - Brawn. Eddie Irvine wasn't going to sway that crowd

The problem is that the statement is probably only accurate for Monza. I don't think there is another GP in which more than 50% of the fans show up in Ferrari colors. Your statement was an exaggeration. Ferrari certainly do have the most fans but Ferrari fans do not make up the majority of F1 fans.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:
Blake wrote:
_Rogue_ wrote:


I picked out the race that i had personally attended that showed your statement to be incorrect... I wasn't saying any more than that. The "meaningless example" proved this point and i even went on to say that "had you said they were a majority at some races i would completely accept that however". I didn't "decide that it is representative of the lack of Ferrari fan support at the majority of races" at all so try not to be Trumpian and make up things to suit your arguement.

Actually I don't think you were responding to a post of mine for starters... however, it doesn't change anything... your comment was and is meaningless in the context of the discussion. Were I to say that the large percentage of red at the GP at Monza it would be only relevant in context. A soccer/football match in Brazil featuring the home team would likely have a large percentage of yellow and green in the stands. It would be meaningless in a discussion of the popularity of Brazil internationally. This thread is about Ferrari.. like that is something new... and its place in F1... not about the Merc/Hamilton colors at Silverstone. In fact, if Ferrari was near the same or slightly above the numbers of Merc colors, then it actually is quite a statement in and of itself. To be that representative at Hamilton's home track. Just imagine how they must be represented on neutral tracks.



It's a question of accuracy.. You made a sweeping statement that Ferrari fans were the vast majority at all Gp's and i merely pointed out that at the one Gp i had attended this year that was, in fact, incorrect. Regardless of your feeling that it is irrevalent it does not change that your original statement was incorrect and that was all i was pointing out. Ferrari fans were probably outnumbered by 2 or 3 to one i would guess and the video i posted from where i watched the race confirms this which also refutes your new statement that that they might have been the same or slightly more above Mercedes fans. The fact is the vast majority of the audience were probably relatively bi partisan by the numbers of fans that wore their team colours or more to the point not wore their team colours. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp and accept?

It's me who said it and I didn't say "all" GPs. So there's one race where it's not a red majority. Whoop-de-do

Williams - Mansell - Hill - McLaren - Coulthard - Button - Hamilton - Brawn. Eddie Irvine wasn't going to sway that crowd

The problem is that the statement is probably only accurate for Monza. I don't think there is another GP in which more than 50% of the fans show up in Ferrari colors. Your statement was an exaggeration. Ferrari certainly do have the most fans but Ferrari fans do not make up the majority of F1 fans.

In terms of team merchandise worn at the GPs I was at - Spa and Hungaroring - it was 70%+ Ferrari. I am not exaggerating. Attending the track, going out in the nearby towns/cities, transport to and from - Ferrari merch massively outweighed any other team

Back in 2007 I recall it was McLaren 2nd, I think Renault was 3rd, there was little to no BMW. In 2015 I estimated Red Bull a very distant 2nd, Merc nearly equal in 3rd and 4th was Lotus. Once or twice you'd cross a McLaren or a Williams cap

I met guys in Ferrari shirts at the MotoGP in Silverstone this year. I don't ever recall a Rossi shirt at an F1 race

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:18 pm 
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The idea that F1 could survive if Ferrari walked away is laughable.

If you attend any race you'll see at least two thirds of the fans are kitted out in Ferrari gear and flags. How on earth can the sport survive if you turn the masses away? And the sport is already struggling as it is, it certainly can't afford to lose the Ferrari fanatics.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:34 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
The idea that F1 could survive if Ferrari walked away is laughable.

If you attend any race you'll see at least two thirds of the fans are kitted out in Ferrari gear and flags. How on earth can the sport survive if you turn the masses away? And the sport is already struggling as it is, it certainly can't afford to lose the Ferrari fanatics.


So if I assume that so many fans are Ferrari fans, asking the question whether Liberty would suffer if Ferrari walked away is secondary to the question "would Ferrari walk away from so many fans?"

If Ferrari left Formula One, how much would it affect their standing among fans?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:43 pm 
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I just ran across an article that seems to match my personal ideals on this issue.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/145622-buxton-the-team-that-cried-wolf

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:02 pm 
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I think we have to clarify what we're talking about here to be honest. There are two major points of clarification needed:

1. I would estimate that only about 1/2 or possibly as little as 1/3 of fans at the average grand prix are decked out in team gear (for any team). Most of the fans just show up in their normal clothes to watch the race and are not raving lunatics or fanatics or anything of the sort. Among those who do wear team merchandise, Ferrari merchandise is the most commonly worn without question but people saying that 70-80 percent of fans are wearing Ferrari merchandise are just flat out inaccurate.

2. If you go to a race, there is often merchandise for sale at the venue (or just in the area during race weekends). This is the most common source of the merchandise that you see people wearing in the stands (stuff that they just bought). Ferrari merchandise is easily the most readily available merchandise to buy. For every 10 Ferrari t-shirts you might find one for any other team. So the supply is also a piece of the puzzle; not just the demand.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I just ran across an article that seems to match my personal ideals on this issue.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/145622-buxton-the-team-that-cried-wolf


Buxton is not exactly a neutral source on sny topic regarding Ferrari, something he has made clear over the past few years on the USA F1 telecats.

Howver, i can counter Buxton with his predecessor, Peter Windsor (a bit of a Ferrari supporter) who makes the opposite case in an article on EXPRESS titled "Ferrari are bigger thsn F1, Bernie Ecclestone was right.

Tge point is thst there are many different opinions on Ferrari's threat...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I just ran across an article that seems to match my personal ideals on this issue.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/145622-buxton-the-team-that-cried-wolf


Buxton is not exactly a neutral source on sny topic regarding Ferrari, something he has made clear over the past few years on the USA F1 telecats.

Howver, i can counter Buxton with his predecessor, Peter Windsor (a bit of a Ferrari supporter) who makes the opposite case in an article on EXPRESS titled "Ferrari are bigger thsn F1, Bernie Ecclestone was right.

Tge point is thst there are many different opinions on Ferrari's threat...


Q. Is it good or bad for F1 if Ferrari or Mercedes or Ferrari and Mercedes can dictate the rules?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I just ran across an article that seems to match my personal ideals on this issue.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/145622-buxton-the-team-that-cried-wolf


Buxton is NOT a neutral source on sny topic regarding Ferrari, something he has made clear over the past few years on the USA F1 telecats.

Howver, i can counter Buxton with his predecessor, Peter Windsor (a bit of a Ferrari supporter) who makes the opposite case in an article on EXPRESS titled "Ferrari are bigger thsn F1, Bernie Ecclestone was right.

Tge point is thst there are many different opinions on Ferrari's threat...


i changed that just a little bit!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I just ran across an article that seems to match my personal ideals on this issue.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/145622-buxton-the-team-that-cried-wolf


Buxton is not exactly a neutral source on sny topic regarding Ferrari, something he has made clear over the past few years on the USA F1 telecats.

Howver, i can counter Buxton with his predecessor, Peter Windsor (a bit of a Ferrari supporter) who makes the opposite case in an article on EXPRESS titled "Ferrari are bigger thsn F1, Bernie Ecclestone was right.

Tge point is thst there are many different opinions on Ferrari's threat...


Q. Is it good or bad for F1 if Ferrari or Mercedes or Ferrari and Mercedes can dictate the rules?


F1 would be fine if Mercedes walked away. Mercedes are not in the same league as Ferrari when it comes to pulling power.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
The idea that F1 could survive if Ferrari walked away is laughable.

If you attend any race you'll see at least two thirds of the fans are kitted out in Ferrari gear and flags. How on earth can the sport survive if you turn the masses away? And the sport is already struggling as it is, it certainly can't afford to lose the Ferrari fanatics.


So if I assume that so many fans are Ferrari fans, asking the question whether Liberty would suffer if Ferrari walked away is secondary to the question "would Ferrari walk away from so many fans?"

If Ferrari left Formula One, how much would it affect their standing among fans?


Ferrari have other options if they leave F1. If they go somewhere else, or start a breakaway formula with other manufacturers, the fans will follow them.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:50 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
The idea that F1 could survive if Ferrari walked away is laughable.

If you attend any race you'll see at least two thirds of the fans are kitted out in Ferrari gear and flags. How on earth can the sport survive if you turn the masses away? And the sport is already struggling as it is, it certainly can't afford to lose the Ferrari fanatics.


So if I assume that so many fans are Ferrari fans, asking the question whether Liberty would suffer if Ferrari walked away is secondary to the question "would Ferrari walk away from so many fans?"

If Ferrari left Formula One, how much would it affect their standing among fans?


Ferrari have other options if they leave F1. If they go somewhere else, or start a breakaway formula with other manufacturers, the fans will follow them.


Are you so sure? My perception is that the majority of Ferrari fans are fans of the Ferrari Formula One team, and not generally racing. Do you watch other series now? Were you a loyal fan of A1GP?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Horner thinks that Ferrari quit threats are just bluster -- http://www.foxsportsasia.com/formula1/7 ... t-bluster/


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Of course he does... he may even be right. Then again, maybe not.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
The idea that F1 could survive if Ferrari walked away is laughable.

If you attend any race you'll see at least two thirds of the fans are kitted out in Ferrari gear and flags. How on earth can the sport survive if you turn the masses away? And the sport is already struggling as it is, it certainly can't afford to lose the Ferrari fanatics.


So if I assume that so many fans are Ferrari fans, asking the question whether Liberty would suffer if Ferrari walked away is secondary to the question "would Ferrari walk away from so many fans?"

If Ferrari left Formula One, how much would it affect their standing among fans?


Ferrari have other options if they leave F1. If they go somewhere else, or start a breakaway formula with other manufacturers, the fans will follow them.


Are you so sure? My perception is that the majority of Ferrari fans are fans of the Ferrari Formula One team, and not generally racing. Do you watch other series now? Were you a loyal fan of A1GP?


Hmmm. I was more of a MSC fan last decade. Now support them for Vettel and Kimi. Would I watch a different series if they left f1 ? Probably not. Unless they took Alonso or Vettel or someone exciting with them.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:26 pm 
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I can’t see Ferrari pulling out of F1. Its all they know how to do, they just like to throw their weight about...!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:08 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Are you so sure? My perception is that the majority of Ferrari fans are fans of the Ferrari Formula One team, and not generally racing. Do you watch other series now? Were you a loyal fan of A1GP?


I can't speak for MasterRacer, but I have followed most all forms of racing that Ferrari has been involved with... starting with pontoon fendered Ferrari (1958) and the GTO... The GT250 SWB. the 350LM. 275 GTB. the P3/4. the 512S. The CanAm Ferraris. the racing Daytonas. the 512 "boxer" LM. the 308 GTB rally cars. The 333SP. and still today with the 458 GTs and now the 488s. And that is not to mention the many F1 cars.

My trip earlier this year to Maranello and Modena was only in small part due to their F1 participation. There is a love of the brand that many, perhaps even most, of the Ferrari fans have... far more than just their F1 involvement. I suspect that is a difficult concept for those who are more the fan of drivers than the team. And of course, it is much easier to get involved with Ferrari more than other manufacturers that are in F1, as they are, either directly or indirectly, still involved in other forms of racing, giving the Ferrari fan more to grasp.

Were Ferrari to leave F1, I would still, as I do today, follow whatever racing series that they get involved with. I would still follow F1, though likely more from a distance and more as a curiosity, as the negative aspects of F1 that I tolerate as a Ferrari fan would be more troublesome if I didn't have a "horse in the race".

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:53 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think we have to clarify what we're talking about here to be honest. There are two major points of clarification needed:

1. I would estimate that only about 1/2 or possibly as little as 1/3 of fans at the average grand prix are decked out in team gear (for any team). Most of the fans just show up in their normal clothes to watch the race and are not raving lunatics or fanatics or anything of the sort. Among those who do wear team merchandise, Ferrari merchandise is the most commonly worn without question but people saying that 70-80 percent of fans are wearing Ferrari merchandise are just flat out inaccurate.

2. If you go to a race, there is often merchandise for sale at the venue (or just in the area during race weekends). This is the most common source of the merchandise that you see people wearing in the stands (stuff that they just bought). Ferrari merchandise is easily the most readily available merchandise to buy. For every 10 Ferrari t-shirts you might find one for any other team. So the supply is also a piece of the puzzle; not just the demand.

They ain't gonna supply it if there's no demand

Look, try and devalue it whatever way you want. 70% of merch at the GPs I was at being Ferrari merch is not an exaggeration. Pretend that's not the case if you so wish. My personal experience leads me to believe you're wrong

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