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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
A regular, naturally aspirated, petrol-powered internal combustion engine is what... 20% efficient? What are the current cars? 45%? It's a huge difference. And don't forget, the more efficient, the more power gets to the wheels for each litre of fuel, it's not only about fuel saving.
Nobody cares. Absolutely nobody...
Wrong. I do. So that's at least one.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:01 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
A regular, naturally aspirated, petrol-powered internal combustion engine is what... 20% efficient? What are the current cars? 45%? It's a huge difference. And don't forget, the more efficient, the more power gets to the wheels for each litre of fuel, it's not only about fuel saving.
Nobody cares. Absolutely nobody...
Wrong. I do. So that's at least one.

2nd.
I think it's important that F1 is at or at least in the ball park of the cutting edge of modern technology. Not a legacy formula. Having (mandating) engines that are half as efficient for the same power as they could be just because, well, mostly noise I suppose, is not something that appeals to me at all. Moreover I don't think it would be at all good for the sport in the long run.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:10 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
A regular, naturally aspirated, petrol-powered internal combustion engine is what... 20% efficient? What are the current cars? 45%? It's a huge difference. And don't forget, the more efficient, the more power gets to the wheels for each litre of fuel, it's not only about fuel saving.
Nobody cares. Absolutely nobody...
Wrong. I do. So that's at least one.

2nd.
I think it's important that F1 is at or at least in the ball park of the cutting edge of modern technology. Not a legacy formula. Having (mandating) engines that are half as efficient for the same power as they could be just because, well, mostly noise I suppose, is not something that appeals to me at all. Moreover I don't think it would be at all good for the sport in the long run.

Yeah I read a technical review that the proposed engines would have to start the race with about 150kg of fuel, they will in affect start the races with much heavier cars then what they are doing presently.

Next I foresee they will bring back refueling to try and make the cars quicker. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.



They seem to be going the right way to attract other builders by separating the engine from the recovery/ERS system to a large extent.
This would mean someone like Cosworth could come in with what they know and be able to use an off the shelf 'gubbins' which they could learn and implement bit by bit as they develop their own, as opposed to now where an engine builder has to develop the H and K as a part of the package. The reverse would be good though too. I mean an independent company developing the re-gen and storage part.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:41 pm 
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moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.



They seem to be going the right way to attract other builders by separating the engine from the recovery/ERS system to a large extent.
This would mean someone like Cosworth could come in with what they know and be able to use an off the shelf 'gubbins' which they could learn and implement bit by bit as they develop their own, as opposed to now where an engine builder has to develop the H and K as a part of the package. The reverse would be good though too. I mean an independent company developing the re-gen and storage part.

Not a big manufacturer though.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.



They seem to be going the right way to attract other builders by separating the engine from the recovery/ERS system to a large extent.
This would mean someone like Cosworth could come in with what they know and be able to use an off the shelf 'gubbins' which they could learn and implement bit by bit as they develop their own, as opposed to now where an engine builder has to develop the H and K as a part of the package. The reverse would be good though too. I mean an independent company developing the re-gen and storage part.

Not a big manufacturer though.


Why does it have to be a big manufacturer?
Another competitive engine is what is needed.

Anyone coming in and having success will make the multinationals look again at it, knowing that a new start can get it done.
Right now, seeing the problems Honda, who are one of the biggest companies and one of the best racing reputations, are having would scare anyone off.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:56 pm 
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moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.



They seem to be going the right way to attract other builders by separating the engine from the recovery/ERS system to a large extent.
This would mean someone like Cosworth could come in with what they know and be able to use an off the shelf 'gubbins' which they could learn and implement bit by bit as they develop their own, as opposed to now where an engine builder has to develop the H and K as a part of the package. The reverse would be good though too. I mean an independent company developing the re-gen and storage part.


Yeah exactly, someone like Zytek could work with a Cosworth or Ricardo for example. It just gives more options all round for me so as much as the H is pretty cool and does great things with efficiency and no turbo lag I just don't think its worth it because of the amount of doors it closes.

But Merc won't give up and I could see them getting enough support to get it put back in the proposal.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?


We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Again, you are missing the point. I do not care one whit about fuel efficient hybrid engines. They are abhorrent to motor racing as far as I am concerned.

I want engines that, as several others have already described here, are *fearsome*. The sound should instill awe, and yes, fear. They should be so powerful that you can hear them MILES away. The hybrid engines are one step away from being utterly useless to me in this regard. Only a full electric motor would be worse.

Nothing is more boring than the idea of watching an engine being fuel efficient. Nothing.

The new engines are fearsome. The V8s were the easiest engines to drive that have existed in the sport. The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.

I'm quite happy if you admit that all you want is loud noisy engines and I will happily concede the V8s produced more noise than the V6s. But in every single other metric the new engines exceed the V8s in providing the thrills you are talking about.

You seem to be like a CD that has got repeatedly stuck on the words 'fuel efficiency' without actually processing it or evening seeming to understand what it means. If your argument goes beyond just wanting a noisier engine then it is basically that you would prefer a less powerful, less challenging engine if it was less fuel efficient than a more powerful, more challenging one.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:18 pm 
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None of the current engine manufacturers seem to like it. The solution is then relatively simple, have a hybrid hybrid formula. Let the current manufacturers keep what they want and just offer the cheaper alternative for new entrants as an option. They just have to get roughly equivalent performance from both specs. I remember when V8s used to race against Turbos so having mixed engines on the grid is not a revolutionary concept for F1 ;).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:43 pm 
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mas wrote:
None of the current engine manufacturers seem to like it. The solution is then relatively simple, have a hybrid hybrid formula. Let the current manufacturers keep what they want and just offer the cheaper alternative for new entrants as an option. They just have to get roughly equivalent performance from both specs. I remember when V8s used to race against Turbos so having mixed engines on the grid is not a revolutionary concept for F1 ;).

Matching them is historically pretty difficult though. V6 turbos were banned in 1989, before that you had to go back to 1983 to find the last NA V8 win.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Again, you are missing the point. I do not care one whit about fuel efficient hybrid engines. They are abhorrent to motor racing as far as I am concerned.

I want engines that, as several others have already described here, are *fearsome*. The sound should instill awe, and yes, fear. They should be so powerful that you can hear them MILES away. The hybrid engines are one step away from being utterly useless to me in this regard. Only a full electric motor would be worse.

Nothing is more boring than the idea of watching an engine being fuel efficient. Nothing.

The new engines are fearsome.


No they are not. Power, yes. Fearsome- No. My daughter and I sat along the main straight in Shanghai during qualifying a few years ago. Without ear plugs. Cars going full speed, hard on the gas, and the sound level was not even remotely fearsome. In fact, I would classify it as pitiful, rather than fearsome.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The V8s were the easiest engines to drive that have existed in the sport.


If you say so.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.


I've been to 4 hybrid era grand prixes and see no sign of tyres "overwhelmed". None.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I'm quite happy if you admit that all you want is loud noisy engines and I will happily concede the V8s produced more noise than the V6s. But in every single other metric the new engines exceed the V8s in providing the thrills you are talking about.


If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that nowhere do I write that the V-8 engines of the past era are my primary preference, nor my favorite engines. In fact, they are my least favorite NA engines. I would happily, joyfully actually, go back to these least favorite engines. Of course, the V-8 era could be easily improved upon by having the ridiculously crushing limitations removed on them. Those engines could hardly be developed due to FIA regulations. Remove the red line limit and the longevity requirements and this formula would blossom in terms of motorsport entertainment.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You seem to be like a CD that has got repeatedly stuck on the words 'fuel efficiency' without actually processing it or evening seeming to understand what it means. If your argument goes beyond just wanting a noisier engine then it is basically that you would prefer a less powerful, less challenging engine if it was less fuel efficient than a more powerful, more challenging one.


You are incorrect. Past Formula One engines were VERY powerful. In 2005 (that's nearly 13 years ago) Mercedes Benz's and BMW's 3.0 liter engines produced 930 horsepower. Renault, Honda, Toyota and Ferrari had 900 horsepower.

Do the hybrid engines have more than this? If yes, it ain't much. I do not care. First of all, these 3.0 liter engines would be making well in excess of 1000 horsepower if they were developed during the past 13 years. And even if they were capped at 930 hp, no one would know that they were less powerful than the hybrids because of the fearsome sound that comes out of a 3.0 liter V-10 engine.

It would wonderfully awesome, something that the fans would quickly respond to, except for those who like to measure fuel efficiency!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:01 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
mas wrote:
None of the current engine manufacturers seem to like it. The solution is then relatively simple, have a hybrid hybrid formula. Let the current manufacturers keep what they want and just offer the cheaper alternative for new entrants as an option. They just have to get roughly equivalent performance from both specs. I remember when V8s used to race against Turbos so having mixed engines on the grid is not a revolutionary concept for F1 ;).

Matching them is historically pretty difficult though. V6 turbos were banned in 1989, before that you had to go back to 1983 to find the last NA V8 win.

Agreed that would be the most difficult part of my suggestion but still easier technically than matching NA vs Turbo as you are basically matching two different types of Turbos. The most difficult part would be actually getting the two camps to agree on what is equivalent specifications between the two and of course it could go wrong in practice in the first season. However there are three years to get agreement and this might be the way to go if you want to keep everybody onboard and attract as many future participants as possible.

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Last edited by mas on Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Again, you are missing the point. I do not care one whit about fuel efficient hybrid engines. They are abhorrent to motor racing as far as I am concerned.

I want engines that, as several others have already described here, are *fearsome*. The sound should instill awe, and yes, fear. They should be so powerful that you can hear them MILES away. The hybrid engines are one step away from being utterly useless to me in this regard. Only a full electric motor would be worse.

Nothing is more boring than the idea of watching an engine being fuel efficient. Nothing.

The new engines are fearsome.


No they are not. Power, yes. Fearsome- No. My daughter and I sat along the main straight in Shanghai during qualifying a few years ago. Without ear plugs. Cars going full speed, hard on the gas, and the sound level was not even remotely fearsome. In fact, I would classify it as pitiful, rather than fearsome.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The V8s were the easiest engines to drive that have existed in the sport.


If you say so.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.


I've been to 4 hybrid era grand prixes and see no sign of tyres "overwhelmed". None.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I'm quite happy if you admit that all you want is loud noisy engines and I will happily concede the V8s produced more noise than the V6s. But in every single other metric the new engines exceed the V8s in providing the thrills you are talking about.


If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that nowhere do I write that the V-8 engines of the past era are my primary preference, nor my favorite engines. In fact, they are my least favorite NA engines. I would happily, joyfully actually, go back to these least favorite engines. Of course, the V-8 era could be easily improved upon by having the ridiculously crushing limitations removed on them. Those engines could hardly be developed due to FIA regulations. Remove the red line limit and the longevity requirements and this formula would blossom in terms of motorsport entertainment.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You seem to be like a CD that has got repeatedly stuck on the words 'fuel efficiency' without actually processing it or evening seeming to understand what it means. If your argument goes beyond just wanting a noisier engine then it is basically that you would prefer a less powerful, less challenging engine if it was less fuel efficient than a more powerful, more challenging one.


You are incorrect. Past Formula One engines were VERY powerful. In 2005 (that's nearly 13 years ago) Mercedes Benz's and BMW's 3.0 liter engines produced 930 horsepower. Renault, Honda, Toyota and Ferrari had 900 horsepower.

Do the hybrid engines have more than this? If yes, it ain't much. I do not care. First of all, these 3.0 liter engines would be making well in excess of 1000 horsepower if they were developed during the past 13 years. And even if they were capped at 930 hp, no one would know that they were less powerful than the hybrids because of the fearsome sound that comes out of a 3.0 liter V-10 engine.

It would wonderfully awesome, something that the fans would quickly respond to, except for those who like to measure fuel efficiency!! :lol:

Peak power output is relatively meaningless. The often quoted figure is only the power that is produced at peak rpm and therefore gives far from the full picture of a race engine's performance. If we had the torque curves for the NA vs turbo hybrid engines you'd really see the improvement.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:13 pm 
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j man wrote:
If we had the torque curves for the NA vs turbo hybrid engines you'd really see the improvement.


If that mattered, at all, then Formula One would be enjoying some seriously good times.

Instead, we have near unanimity from those in power that the engine formula MUST change because the current one is completely unsuitable for the future of the sport.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:23 pm 
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Interesting, after doing a lot of research it appears that some teams were under the impression that the change may be that the MGU-H would be a system that would be manuf by one manuf and used by all teams, thus cutting costs, creating more parity and improving reliability (also cutting down on grid penalties). When it was proposed to throw the whole thing out, these teams were surprised. Will be interesting to see how this develops, as it is still only a proposal.

Frankly, I want better racing and less penalties, I don't care if they are in 20 year old indy lights cars, the wheel to wheel racing is what I want to see. I know others look at F1 and are fans because of the state of the art engineering side of things, but I am not one of those people.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Mercedes are said to produce around 1000bhp in peak power but that's fuel flow limited so they could easily achieve more I believe. They're by far the most powerful we've had and they're incredibly efficient because of the lean burn and mgu-h which also takes care of turbo lag.

Noise sucks but in everything else performance wise they would crush those from the past with no fuel flow limit I believe.

The problem is the noise for those that attend the race,how expensive they are, how complex they are and how few the options are for supply which leads to Manufacturers stacking the deck.

For all the benefits the mgu-h alone brings, its removal would take care of every single one of those problems so its a no-brainer for me to get rid of it but I understand those that like it.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Which of these two concepts will increase the passion fans have for Formula One the most?

A- 19,000 rpm's
B- MGU-H


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Again, you are missing the point. I do not care one whit about fuel efficient hybrid engines. They are abhorrent to motor racing as far as I am concerned.

I want engines that, as several others have already described here, are *fearsome*. The sound should instill awe, and yes, fear. They should be so powerful that you can hear them MILES away. The hybrid engines are one step away from being utterly useless to me in this regard. Only a full electric motor would be worse.

Nothing is more boring than the idea of watching an engine being fuel efficient. Nothing.

The new engines are fearsome.


No they are not. Power, yes. Fearsome- No. My daughter and I sat along the main straight in Shanghai during qualifying a few years ago. Without ear plugs. Cars going full speed, hard on the gas, and the sound level was not even remotely fearsome. In fact, I would classify it as pitiful, rather than fearsome.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The V8s were the easiest engines to drive that have existed in the sport.


If you say so.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.


I've been to 4 hybrid era grand prixes and see no sign of tyres "overwhelmed". None.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I'm quite happy if you admit that all you want is loud noisy engines and I will happily concede the V8s produced more noise than the V6s. But in every single other metric the new engines exceed the V8s in providing the thrills you are talking about.


If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that nowhere do I write that the V-8 engines of the past era are my primary preference, nor my favorite engines. In fact, they are my least favorite NA engines. I would happily, joyfully actually, go back to these least favorite engines. Of course, the V-8 era could be easily improved upon by having the ridiculously crushing limitations removed on them. Those engines could hardly be developed due to FIA regulations. Remove the red line limit and the longevity requirements and this formula would blossom in terms of motorsport entertainment.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You seem to be like a CD that has got repeatedly stuck on the words 'fuel efficiency' without actually processing it or evening seeming to understand what it means. If your argument goes beyond just wanting a noisier engine then it is basically that you would prefer a less powerful, less challenging engine if it was less fuel efficient than a more powerful, more challenging one.


You are incorrect. Past Formula One engines were VERY powerful. In 2005 (that's nearly 13 years ago) Mercedes Benz's and BMW's 3.0 liter engines produced 930 horsepower. Renault, Honda, Toyota and Ferrari had 900 horsepower.

Do the hybrid engines have more than this? If yes, it ain't much. I do not care. First of all, these 3.0 liter engines would be making well in excess of 1000 horsepower if they were developed during the past 13 years. And even if they were capped at 930 hp, no one would know that they were less powerful than the hybrids because of the fearsome sound that comes out of a 3.0 liter V-10 engine.

It would wonderfully awesome, something that the fans would quickly respond to, except for those who like to measure fuel efficiency!! :lol:


So to summarise, you do indeed just want more noise.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:35 pm 
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How does rewriting the engine regulations so that Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Ferrari have to spend millions designing yet another new generation of engines help towards cutting costs in the slightest?

There's nothing wrong with the current engines, fix everything else wrong with Formula 1 first.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:39 pm 
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moby wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.



They seem to be going the right way to attract other builders by separating the engine from the recovery/ERS system to a large extent.
This would mean someone like Cosworth could come in with what they know and be able to use an off the shelf 'gubbins' which they could learn and implement bit by bit as they develop their own, as opposed to now where an engine builder has to develop the H and K as a part of the package. The reverse would be good though too. I mean an independent company developing the re-gen and storage part.

Not a big manufacturer though.


Why does it have to be a big manufacturer?
Another competitive engine is what is needed.

Anyone coming in and having success will make the multinationals look again at it, knowing that a new start can get it done.
Right now, seeing the problems Honda, who are one of the biggest companies and one of the best racing reputations, are having would scare anyone off.

The engine will be competitive because it's been dumbed down for the likes of Cosworth, it's not cutting edge that interests the big manufacturers.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Ferrari I'd guess this is more about keeping their current payments after 2020 hidden under outrage about the engine.

I can't remember the last new engine regs Ferrari were happy with tbh. Mercedes are upset about the MGU-H going as this is a big piece of their performance advantage.

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda were keen to keep the H as they seem to treat everything as R&D so Mercedes could find some allies and try to get it restored.

It's a fascinating bit of kit but its expense keeps smaller engine manufacturers out through no choice of their own and bigger manufacturers wary of being too far behind in development so for me it has to go for the good of the Sport.

What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?


We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Again, you are missing the point. I do not care one whit about fuel efficient hybrid engines. They are abhorrent to motor racing as far as I am concerned.

I want engines that, as several others have already described here, are *fearsome*. The sound should instill awe, and yes, fear. They should be so powerful that you can hear them MILES away. The hybrid engines are one step away from being utterly useless to me in this regard. Only a full electric motor would be worse.

Nothing is more boring than the idea of watching an engine being fuel efficient. Nothing.

The new engines are fearsome. The V8s were the easiest engines to drive that have existed in the sport. The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.

I'm quite happy if you admit that all you want is loud noisy engines and I will happily concede the V8s produced more noise than the V6s. But in every single other metric the new engines exceed the V8s in providing the thrills you are talking about.

You seem to be like a CD that has got repeatedly stuck on the words 'fuel efficiency' without actually processing it or evening seeming to understand what it means. If your argument goes beyond just wanting a noisier engine then it is basically that you would prefer a less powerful, less challenging engine if it was less fuel efficient than a more powerful, more challenging one.

Yep the V8's had more bark than bite.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:48 pm 
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mas wrote:
None of the current engine manufacturers seem to like it. The solution is then relatively simple, have a hybrid hybrid formula. Let the current manufacturers keep what they want and just offer the cheaper alternative for new entrants as an option. They just have to get roughly equivalent performance from both specs. I remember when V8s used to race against Turbos so having mixed engines on the grid is not a revolutionary concept for F1 ;).

I'm not sure you understand all the logistics of running different engines, it would be somewhat farcical like it was with the V8's against the Turbos.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?

Correct. 3 manufacturers left and Cosworth stopped supplying though.

Still, we should go back to engines manufacturers will have no interest in developing because LOUD NOISES


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:50 pm 
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mas wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
mas wrote:
None of the current engine manufacturers seem to like it. The solution is then relatively simple, have a hybrid hybrid formula. Let the current manufacturers keep what they want and just offer the cheaper alternative for new entrants as an option. They just have to get roughly equivalent performance from both specs. I remember when V8s used to race against Turbos so having mixed engines on the grid is not a revolutionary concept for F1 ;).

Matching them is historically pretty difficult though. V6 turbos were banned in 1989, before that you had to go back to 1983 to find the last NA V8 win.

Agreed that would be the most difficult part of my suggestion but still easier technically than matching NA vs Turbo as you are basically matching two different types of Turbos. The most difficult part would be actually getting the two camps to agree on what is equivalent specifications between the two and of course it could go wrong in practice in the first season. However there are three years to get agreement and this might be the way to go if you want to keep everybody onboard and attract as many future participants as possible.

One engine would start the race with 105kg of fuel the other 150Kg of fuel, have a think about that.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Which of these two concepts will increase the passion fans have for Formula One the most?

A- 19,000 rpm's
B- MGU-H

I only watch on the telly so noise makes no difference, so I go for performance therefore MGU-H.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:05 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
How does rewriting the engine regulations so that Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Ferrari have to spend millions designing yet another new generation of engines help towards cutting costs in the slightest?

There's nothing wrong with the current engines, fix everything else wrong with Formula 1 first.

Yep they are supposed to carry the cost for engines they don't want to build.

Paddy Lowe said the problem is not the engines, citing the fact that Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull are streets ahead of the competition and they use different engines, the problem is the unequal distribution of funds.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What big manufacturers were going to come in anyway, Porsche wanted to come in with 4 wheel drive with a MGUK on both axles, they're not interested in a low tech F1.


I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?


We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?


Again, what manufacturers were there not already involved that could've entered?. If we only had 3 manufacturers involved like with the V6T then that leaves a lot more potential entrants. And yet only 1 entered for the V6T to bring the grand total to 4 Manufacturers in the Sport.

But we already had 7 Manufacturers during the V8's. You see the problem with the comparison,right?.
.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:25 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?

Correct. 3 manufacturers left and Cosworth stopped supplying though.

Still, we should go back to engines manufacturers will have no interest in developing because LOUD NOISES


They left because they were bored of the V8's did they?.

Where are all the manufacturers battering down the door for the mighty V6T?. We have nearly half the amount of competitors than the V8 era so it's a strange line of argument.

(And I don't want to go back fwiw).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I didn't have a specific in mind but removing things that stop them even thinking about entering sounds ok to me.

I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?


We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?


Again, what manufacturers were there not already involved that could've entered?. If we only had 3 manufacturers involved like with the V6T then that leaves a lot more potential entrants. And yet only 1 entered for the V6T to bring the grand total to 4 Manufacturers in the Sport.

But we already had 7 Manufacturers during the V8's. You see the problem with the comparison,right?.
.

Yes with your comparison, 3 manufacturers left and 2 of the 3 left threatened to leave, Cosworth are not a car manufacturer.

The V6T Hybrid meant the manufacturers stayed and then they gained another one, only Ferrari were prepared to stay through thick and thin, now even Ferrari seem to be wavering.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?

Correct. 3 manufacturers left and Cosworth stopped supplying though.

Still, we should go back to engines manufacturers will have no interest in developing because LOUD NOISES


They left because they were bored of the V8's did they?.

Where are all the manufacturers battering down the door for the mighty V6T?. We have nearly half the amount of competitors than the V8 era so it's a strange line of argument.

(And I don't want to go back fwiw).

The manufacturers were there during the V10 era and then started leaving during the V8 era, what the V6T Hybrid did was keep the manufacturers that were left and even added one.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:43 pm 
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The thing is though, that with the DFV etc, the engine was just that. It finished at the ports and shafts.
Two cars next to eachother on the grid could both have DFV but injection made by different people exhausts by someone else and control electronics by someone else and the geartrain was made by more than one company or team. The engine was the same but 50% different.
Even the camshafts could be reprofiled.

If the 'power unit' is going to be built as an ICE with integrated Turbo/H plus regenerator/K all via the same control package, that is what you have to use. You use what the manufacturer delivers to your factory and run it to the parameters that come on the paper in the box (not literally :] )

The manufacturer cuts limits as fine as they will go, or beyond, so are always going to have the best 'engine' .

If it was possible for Tag Huer to actually use different components on the Renault and make their own decisions about cooling and rev limit, oil etc and decide how close to destruction the engine would be with their ancillaries, which they believe to be better than the factory ones, there would be an incentive for other companies to come into F1 as they can not only learn from it but get good PR from it.

I know I am not being realistic and it is not going to happen that way, but I do like the theory of 'plug and play' as long as there is scope to use parts from different suppliers and match them in a different wat to the 'boss' team. There is a chance for old style sneakeyness to win a couple of races then.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Honda are the only engine manufacturers to enter in the last 10 years, not one entered during the V8 era, perhaps they have no real interest in what might be considered spec engines that limits building the most advanced engines?


We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?


Again, what manufacturers were there not already involved that could've entered?. If we only had 3 manufacturers involved like with the V6T then that leaves a lot more potential entrants. And yet only 1 entered for the V6T to bring the grand total to 4 Manufacturers in the Sport.

But we already had 7 Manufacturers during the V8's. You see the problem with the comparison,right?.
.

Yes with your comparison, 3 manufacturers left and 2 of the 3 left threatened to leave, Cosworth are not a car manufacturer.

The V6T Hybrid meant the manufacturers stayed and then they gained another one, only Ferrari were prepared to stay through thick and thin, now even Ferrari seem to be wavering.


It's not my comparison, thank you.

You're the one trying to compare number of new entrants in an era with 3 active manufacturers to an era we had nearly double the amount ALREADY INVOLVED.

Were you expecting the likes of Honda,Toyota or BMW to enter twice?. Or maybe just leave for a bit and come back?.

And to top off the ridiculousness of the boast we're talking about a mighty ONE more entrant in the V6-T era in first place.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?

Correct. 3 manufacturers left and Cosworth stopped supplying though.

Still, we should go back to engines manufacturers will have no interest in developing because LOUD NOISES


They left because they were bored of the V8's did they?.

Where are all the manufacturers battering down the door for the mighty V6T?. We have nearly half the amount of competitors than the V8 era so it's a strange line of argument.

(And I don't want to go back fwiw).

The manufacturers were there during the V10 era and then started leaving during the V8 era, what the V6T Hybrid did was keep the manufacturers that were left and even added one.


Because of the V8?.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:34 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The new hybrids will overwhelm the tyres with torque.


I've been to 4 hybrid era grand prixes and see no sign of tyres "overwhelmed". None.


The accelerator pedal has over twice the travel on the current hybrid V6 cars compared to the V8s before. That's to give the drivers a fighting chance of handling the available torque coming out of corners.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:38 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We had lots of Manufacturers when V8's were introduced though so it wasn't like there was only 2 and no-one else cared. We had Renault,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,Cosworth,Mercedes and BMW. We'd kill for a line up like that right now.

And I think the GFC in 2008 scared them off rather than the boredom of the V8 or any worries about Spec.

They carried over from the V10 era, I don't recall any new manufacturer entering during the V8 era?


Again, what manufacturers were there not already involved that could've entered?. If we only had 3 manufacturers involved like with the V6T then that leaves a lot more potential entrants. And yet only 1 entered for the V6T to bring the grand total to 4 Manufacturers in the Sport.

But we already had 7 Manufacturers during the V8's. You see the problem with the comparison,right?.
.

Yes with your comparison, 3 manufacturers left and 2 of the 3 left threatened to leave, Cosworth are not a car manufacturer.

The V6T Hybrid meant the manufacturers stayed and then they gained another one, only Ferrari were prepared to stay through thick and thin, now even Ferrari seem to be wavering.


It's not my comparison, thank you.

You're the one trying to compare number of new entrants in an era with 3 active manufacturers to an era we had nearly double the amount ALREADY INVOLVED.

Were you expecting the likes of Honda,Toyota or BMW to enter twice?. Or maybe just leave for a bit and come back?.

And to top off the ridiculousness of the boast we're talking about a mighty ONE more entrant in the V6-T era in first place.

All the manufacturers were there during the V10 era, a much loved engine, and then dispersed during the V8 era and then we were left with just 3 manufacturers, of these manufacturers both Renault and Mercedes wanted rid of the engines, did I really need to point out the last bit?

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