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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:43 am 
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Invade wrote:
Looks like contact to me at 49 seconds. Watch at 0.25 speed. What do you reckon?

Good eye. Yes it looks like Verstappen and Hamilton made contact there. Damaged the end plate on the wing. He probably could have stayed out with that damage though and just changed the wing during his first stop.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Looks like contact to me at 49 seconds. Watch at 0.25 speed. What do you reckon?

Good eye. Yes it looks like Verstappen and Hamilton made contact there. Damaged the end plate on the wing. He probably could have stayed out with that damage though and just changed the wing during his first stop.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Still costly but far less costly.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:13 am 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Looks like contact to me at 49 seconds. Watch at 0.25 speed. What do you reckon?

Good eye. Yes it looks like Verstappen and Hamilton made contact there. Damaged the end plate on the wing. He probably could have stayed out with that damage though and just changed the wing during his first stop.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Still costly but far less costly.

Nah, he was falling back from Bottas before the lap was even over, I was expecting him to come in after seeing the way Bottas pulled away from him in the stadium section.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:16 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Looks like contact to me at 49 seconds. Watch at 0.25 speed. What do you reckon?

Good eye. Yes it looks like Verstappen and Hamilton made contact there. Damaged the end plate on the wing. He probably could have stayed out with that damage though and just changed the wing during his first stop.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Still costly but far less costly.

Nah, he was falling back from Bottas before the lap was even over, I was expecting him to come in after seeing the way Bottas pulled away from him in the stadium section.


I was meaning assuming the contact with Vettel never happened - so just the contact with Max. You still think Hamilton would have come in immediately? And thanks for that interview link in the other thread. I'm surprised it's so short though!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:17 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Ferrari have a driver problem. One has excellent speed but the habit of messing it up. And no second driver to jump in. They should have won a lot more races this year.


Vettel faded pretty bad this year and Kimi faded many many years ago. So yes, Ferrari do indeed have a driver problem.


Untrue. A combination of unreliability from Ferrari and ridiculous bad luck on the track thwarted Seb and gifted Hamilton the title.

Vettel also made more mistakes with contact with other cars

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:20 am 
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Invade wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Looks like contact to me at 49 seconds. Watch at 0.25 speed. What do you reckon?

Good eye. Yes it looks like Verstappen and Hamilton made contact there. Damaged the end plate on the wing. He probably could have stayed out with that damage though and just changed the wing during his first stop.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Still costly but far less costly.

Nah, he was falling back from Bottas before the lap was even over, I was expecting him to come in after seeing the way Bottas pulled away from him in the stadium section.


I was meaning assuming the contact with Vettel never happened - so just the contact with Max. You still think Hamilton would have come in immediately? And thanks for that interview link in the other thread. I'm surprised it's so short though!

Oh wait, sorry, I misread your post and for some reason I thought you meant Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:12 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
https://vid.me/m700y
I don't know if this really shows it, but Hamilton's front wing got replaced when he pitted. Vettel hit Hamilton from the back so it wasn't Vettel's car he broke it on. So was it Hamilton's or Verstapen's fault that he damaged his front wing? It looks like he clipped it on Verstappen. But maybe Vettel triggered that by hitting Hamilton. I'm not sure. But if Vettel wasn't at fault for the front wing damage, I think Verstappen may have been the cause for this by pulling infront of Hamilton a tiny fraction before he was fully ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z82oard5n8
This is the best quality video I've seen of the incident. I don't see Hamilton making contact with Verstappen at all.

I think there was small contact when Verstappen came across.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:13 am 
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Hamilton diffuser was very badly damaged.

Lost big chunks.


Last edited by Clarky on Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:14 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Did Vettel ever hand that place back to Massa, I didn't hear anything ?

.


Nope. The rules are for non red cars.


DC just said if it was Max he would have got a penalty.

I can’t see how they could penalise the outside driver after they are forced off the track. It’s like Rosberg at T1 last year, pushed off and so cut the corner to keep his position. Fair enough as he should have the position handed to him anyway.

Worth pointing out that Massa had no intention of pushing Vettel off either he just got oversteer mid corner, Vettel was within his right to keep the position.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:06 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
But you always find out who a person really is when times are tough, when they are losing, etc.


By your own measure you must think Vettel is a complete knob then.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:18 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
https://vid.me/m700y
I don't know if this really shows it, but Hamilton's front wing got replaced when he pitted. Vettel hit Hamilton from the back so it wasn't Vettel's car he broke it on. So was it Hamilton's or Verstapen's fault that he damaged his front wing? It looks like he clipped it on Verstappen. But maybe Vettel triggered that by hitting Hamilton. I'm not sure. But if Vettel wasn't at fault for the front wing damage, I think Verstappen may have been the cause for this by pulling infront of Hamilton a tiny fraction before he was fully ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z82oard5n8
This is the best quality video I've seen of the incident. I don't see Hamilton making contact with Verstappen at all.

I think that video makes it much more clear that he did. If you watch extremelly carefully at 37, you can see a tiny bit come off Hamilton when Verstappen rubbed against him. What else would have made Mercedes replace his front wing? Vettel didn't touch that and from discussions on other forums, some do seem to think Verstappen clipped it and was the reason why they had to replace it. At 48, pretty much answers it. There most certainly was contact. Watch it in slow motion as Invade said.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:42 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Did Vettel ever hand that place back to Massa, I didn't hear anything ?

.


Nope. The rules are for non red cars.


DC just said if it was Max he would have got a penalty.

I can’t see how they could penalise the outside driver after they are forced off the track. It’s like Rosberg at T1 last year, pushed off and so cut the corner to keep his position. Fair enough as he should have the position handed to him anyway.

Worth pointing out that Massa had no intention of pushing Vettel off either he just got oversteer mid corner, Vettel was within his right to keep the position.


Sorry I replied to the wrong message, it was regarding the contact on the first lap.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:55 am 
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MV has destroyed Vettel WC with contact in Singapore and yesterday in Mexico. I do not know why Vettel goes so defensive in start especially with MV. Singapore was obviously his fault and yesterday as well he made mistake by going too defensive and in the end it was racing incident with Hamilton. Boring race as top 3 were apart but Vettel and Hamilton race made it little more interesting.. RBR has made biggest improvement. In Moncao, Hungary they were not this good.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:30 am 
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This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:09 am 
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Was it me, the expectation before hand, or the poor camera work (I only watched C4 highlights, so possible) or was that the most boring race for years?


There was the collision, all of a couple of seconds, and the very good scrap with Lewis/Alonso, and was it 2? other passes worth watching.

Very disappointed.

Max did his job well, congrats to him, Seb tried his best, but it was never on, and Hamilton hardly cut a swathe through the traffic on his recovery drive. Which was the right thing to do, a points finish of 1 was more important than a podium today. But I was not interested for most of the race at all.

Anyone else? or only in my head?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:17 am 
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Lojik wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
But you always find out who a person really is when times are tough, when they are losing, etc.


By your own measure you must think Vettel is a complete knob then.

I think he certainly can be in the heat of the moment. Thankfully, he seems to calm down fairly quickly afterwards. He generally seems fairly easy going and I don't recall him bad mouthing others or being generally obnoxious in the general scheme of things


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:21 am 
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mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).


Don't forget Danny Ric, he will have his say if the RB is competitive. I'm really looking forward to next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:28 am 
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moby wrote:
Was it me, the expectation before hand, or the poor camera work (I only watched C4 highlights, so possible) or was that the most boring race for years?


There was the collision, all of a couple of seconds, and the very good scrap with Lewis/Alonso, and was it 2? other passes worth watching.

Very disappointed.

Max did his job well, congrats to him, Seb tried his best, but it was never on, and Hamilton hardly cut a swathe through the traffic on his recovery drive. Which was the right thing to do, a points finish of 1 was more important than a podium today. But I was not interested for most of the race at all.

Anyone else? or only in my head?


Something which really bothers me is the lack of defending. It literally looks like the younger drivers don't care. Massa with Hamilton and Vettel makes them go round the outside and work for it. The same with Alonso, the older racers don't give up positions easy and Alonso wanted to get back at Hamilton.

I watched Stroll again and he has a Mercedes engine, he just let Vettel go past and completely got out the way. Perez fell asleep when Vettel overtook him.

The last corner is horrible for the straight, seems to be a common theme in F1.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:28 am 
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I watched the video posted above on .25 speed too, Yes there is contact Hamilton Verstappen looks like Lewis may have hit the Rim of max, which is lucky for the latter because that contact is a sure puncture 99/100 times.

Regarding Vettel, based on the on-board, and the movement of the car, it looks to me like he over-steers twice in the right hander, first of all he corrects near instantly after going over the curb. The 2nd one it looks like he puts the right foot down too hard too fast and that causes the 2nd over-steer that causes the Hamilton impact.

Not deliberate, Seb was just desperate to reclaim p1.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:39 am 
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Good_Year wrote:
I watched the video posted above on .25 speed too, Yes there is contact Hamilton Verstappen looks like Lewis may have hit the Rim of max, which is lucky for the latter because that contact is a sure puncture 99/100 times.

Regarding Vettel, based on the on-board, and the movement of the car, it looks to me like he over-steers twice in the right hander, first of all he corrects near instantly after going over the curb. The 2nd one it looks like he puts the right foot down too hard too fast and that causes the 2nd over-steer that causes the Hamilton impact.

Not deliberate, Seb was just desperate to reclaim p1.

Max was very lucky yesterday. His right rear tyre was hit by Vettel’s front wing and his left rear tyre was hit by Hamilton’s. He was also pretty lucky not to have his engine go pop as Renault we’re really struggling for reliability.

Not that I believe in that sort of stuff but it was like it was meant to be. I guess the Kvyat effect is guaranteed to work!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:53 am 
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Don't know whether its already been mentioned; but watching the replay on C4 they were pointing out that on a number of occasions Hamilton didn't deploying DRS down the main straight when it was available.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:09 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Don't know whether its already been mentioned; but watching the replay on C4 they were pointing out that on a number of occasions Hamilton didn't deploying DRS down the main straight when it was available.

It wasn't available, Hamilton was frequently dropping back over a second at times.

Ben Edwards is a numpty anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:38 pm 
moby wrote:
Was it me, the expectation before hand, or the poor camera work (I only watched C4 highlights, so possible) or was that the most boring race for years?


There was the collision, all of a couple of seconds, and the very good scrap with Lewis/Alonso, and was it 2? other passes worth watching.

Very disappointed.

Max did his job well, congrats to him, Seb tried his best, but it was never on, and Hamilton hardly cut a swathe through the traffic on his recovery drive. Which was the right thing to do, a points finish of 1 was more important than a podium today. But I was not interested for most of the race at all.

Anyone else? or only in my head?

Most boring race of the year for me by far, everybody was running on there own. The only interesting thing was Vettel and Hamilton trying to come back through.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:44 pm 
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mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Yeah I was going to venture down that path, Vettel was as much at fault as Ferrari were, apart from Singapore there were 3 times that Vettel hit Hamilton's car not once did Hamilton hit Vettel's car, Vettel does have a fair bit of contact with cars which we have also seen these past few years at the start of races.

Next year there will be a 3 way fight between Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen and I can foresee collisions and controversy, as for Alonso I don't think he well have the car to challenge, McLaren are good at blowing smoke.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:46 pm 
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moby wrote:
Was it me, the expectation before hand, or the poor camera work (I only watched C4 highlights, so possible) or was that the most boring race for years?


There was the collision, all of a couple of seconds, and the very good scrap with Lewis/Alonso, and was it 2? other passes worth watching.

Very disappointed.

Max did his job well, congrats to him, Seb tried his best, but it was never on, and Hamilton hardly cut a swathe through the traffic on his recovery drive. Which was the right thing to do, a points finish of 1 was more important than a podium today. But I was not interested for most of the race at all.

Anyone else? or only in my head?

No it was disappointing in that a better race was ruined after the first corner collision.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:47 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).


Don't forget Danny Ric, he will have his say if the RB is competitive. I'm really looking forward to next year.

I class Ricciardo as a defeated man in respect to Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Good_Year wrote:
I watched the video posted above on .25 speed too, Yes there is contact Hamilton Verstappen looks like Lewis may have hit the Rim of max, which is lucky for the latter because that contact is a sure puncture 99/100 times.

Regarding Vettel, based on the on-board, and the movement of the car, it looks to me like he over-steers twice in the right hander, first of all he corrects near instantly after going over the curb. The 2nd one it looks like he puts the right foot down too hard too fast and that causes the 2nd over-steer that causes the Hamilton impact.

Not deliberate, Seb was just desperate to reclaim p1.

Max was very lucky yesterday. His right rear tyre was hit by Vettel’s front wing and his left rear tyre was hit by Hamilton’s. He was also pretty lucky not to have his engine go pop as Renault we’re really struggling for reliability.

Not that I believe in that sort of stuff but it was like it was meant to be. I guess the Kvyat effect is guaranteed to work!

Verstappen does tend to live on luck a bit with his aggressive starts, it will cost him from time to time next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:56 pm 
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mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Vettel has broke the track record several times! Mate, what clumsiness are you speaking about :?:

About next year, and every other - I would be very surprised if both Hamilton and Vettel win any titles. Verstappen is here, there are some strong newcomers from lower series (Leclerc, etc) and Ocon has just established himself as a future champ while Alonso and Ricciardo are waiting in the shadow.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Vettel has broke the track record several times! Mate, what clumsiness are you speaking about :?:

About next year, and every other - I would be very surprised if both Hamilton and Vettel win any titles. Verstappen is here, there are some strong newcomers from lower series (Leclerc, etc) and Ocon has just established himself as a future champ while Alonso and Ricciardo are waiting in the shadow.

You didn't see Vettel run into the back of Hamilton and ruin both their races?

The 5th titles will be much more difficult to win then previous years for Hamilton and Vettel now that Verstappen is in the mix, but equally it's not going to be easy for Verstappen to win his first title either.

Ocon and Leclerc are still unproven whilst Alonso is not exactly the future, whilst Ricciardo will probably stay in the shadow of Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:43 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Aspar wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well - let's see if Vettel can put in a performance for the ages to finish 2nd and somehow keep the race going. Wouldn't that be extraordinary?


No, considering he had to ram his opponent out of the race and go unpunished. Without it there is nothing else Vettel could do.
If this really happens, i would be furious if i was a merc boss and insturct Bottas to go kamikadze on Vettel next race. Obiously FIA tolerates such driving if it's fine with its plans to make artificial thrillers at the end of the season.


Well it was stupid of Hamilton to give Seb the opportunity. He had nothing to lose as he needed Hamilton out of the points. Hamilton should have just sat in behind Seb. I don't think it was an accident but it is impossible to punish because you can't prove it was deliberate. :)


Well of course you can punish incidents that were not deliberate. It actually happens all the time.

This is probably the most famous recent example: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10218 ... -for-crash

Grosjean did not cause that incident deliberately but yet he got a punishment for it. One of the reasons for his race ban was that he took out a championship contender!

I think Vettel should have got a penalty.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Vettel has broke the track record several times! Mate, what clumsiness are you speaking about :?:

About next year, and every other - I would be very surprised if both Hamilton and Vettel win any titles. Verstappen is here, there are some strong newcomers from lower series (Leclerc, etc) and Ocon has just established himself as a future champ while Alonso and Ricciardo are waiting in the shadow.

You didn't see Vettel run into the back of Hamilton and ruin both their races?

The 5th titles will be much more difficult to win then previous years for Hamilton and Vettel now that Verstappen is in the mix, but equally it's not going to be easy for Verstappen to win his first title either.

Ocon and Leclerc are still unproven whilst Alonso is not exactly the future, whilst Ricciardo will probably stay in the shadow of Verstappen.

I think you're both crazy. Don't get me wrong, Red Bull are certainly in the ascendancy and I wouldn't put it past them to be at the very front next season with the car. Max has also shown tremendous pace and ability, so I expect he will be ready to fight for the championship when the time comes.

That said, I see Max driving with complete reckless abandon and without anything to lose in his mind. That changes significantly when there is a title at stake. He really got away with a lot of on-the-limit driving in terms of putting himself at risk. His race easily could have been brought to an end during the first corner incident as he cut across the track without heed. Both of his rear tires were hit but he managed to avoid a puncture miraculously. Perhaps he will settle down and become more sensible out there but right now I see a guy who will lose too many points to incidents to win a close title race. I think Max still has much to prove and much to learn but the talent is clearly there.

The point of my post is that, without seeing next year's cars, Hamilton and Vettel must still be consiedered the 2 favorites for the championship next season. This is particularly true when you consider the fact that Max and Daniel will likely take a lot more points off of each other than either Kimi or Bottas will take off of Vettel or Hamilton. As for Ocon and Leclerc; Ocon seems really good but not quite at that elite level. He's somewhat like Sainz for me. Leclerc isn't even in F1 and you think Hamilton and Vettel should be worried or expect to have a hard time because of him? Lol, come now.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Vettel has broke the track record several times! Mate, what clumsiness are you speaking about :?:

About next year, and every other - I would be very surprised if both Hamilton and Vettel win any titles. Verstappen is here, there are some strong newcomers from lower series (Leclerc, etc) and Ocon has just established himself as a future champ while Alonso and Ricciardo are waiting in the shadow.

You didn't see Vettel run into the back of Hamilton and ruin both their races?

The 5th titles will be much more difficult to win then previous years for Hamilton and Vettel now that Verstappen is in the mix, but equally it's not going to be easy for Verstappen to win his first title either.

Ocon and Leclerc are still unproven whilst Alonso is not exactly the future, whilst Ricciardo will probably stay in the shadow of Verstappen.

I think you're both crazy. Don't get me wrong, Red Bull are certainly in the ascendancy and I wouldn't put it past them to be at the very front next season with the car. Max has also shown tremendous pace and ability, so I expect he will be ready to fight for the championship when the time comes.

That said, I see Max driving with complete reckless abandon and without anything to lose in his mind. That changes significantly when there is a title at stake. He really got away with a lot of on-the-limit driving in terms of putting himself at risk. His race easily could have been brought to an end during the first corner incident as he cut across the track without heed. Both of his rear tires were hit but he managed to avoid a puncture miraculously. Perhaps he will settle down and become more sensible out there but right now I see a guy who will lose too many points to incidents to win a close title race. I think Max still has much to prove and much to learn but the talent is clearly there.

The point of my post is that, without seeing next year's cars, Hamilton and Vettel must still be consiedered the 2 favorites for the championship next season. This is particularly true when you consider the fact that Max and Daniel will likely take a lot more points off of each other than either Kimi or Bottas will take off of Vettel or Hamilton. As for Ocon and Leclerc; Ocon seems really good but not quite at that elite level. He's somewhat like Sainz for me. Leclerc isn't even in F1 and you think Hamilton and Vettel should be worried or expect to have a hard time because of him? Lol, come now.


I think Ocon is now as good as Verstappen was in his debut season. Ocon obviously is a bit more experienced but he is performing brilliantly at the moment.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:31 pm 
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People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:38 pm 
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I'm not. Ricciardo is top 4, while Vettel is only top 5.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:33 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.


And why ? Sadly, Ricciardo is becoming old news in comparison with Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
mas wrote:
This race encapsulated why Vettel didn't deserve the wdc this year, he was too clumsy in busy fast traffic. Next year will be harder for both Hamilton and Vettel too as there is a new fast kid in town, Verstappen, and an old gunslinger is going to return to have his say too, Alonso. Next year will be ultra competitive like 2007/2012 and personally I can't wait ;).

Vettel has broke the track record several times! Mate, what clumsiness are you speaking about :?:

About next year, and every other - I would be very surprised if both Hamilton and Vettel win any titles. Verstappen is here, there are some strong newcomers from lower series (Leclerc, etc) and Ocon has just established himself as a future champ while Alonso and Ricciardo are waiting in the shadow.

You didn't see Vettel run into the back of Hamilton and ruin both their races?

The 5th titles will be much more difficult to win then previous years for Hamilton and Vettel now that Verstappen is in the mix, but equally it's not going to be easy for Verstappen to win his first title either.

Ocon and Leclerc are still unproven whilst Alonso is not exactly the future, whilst Ricciardo will probably stay in the shadow of Verstappen.

I think you're both crazy. Don't get me wrong, Red Bull are certainly in the ascendancy and I wouldn't put it past them to be at the very front next season with the car. Max has also shown tremendous pace and ability, so I expect he will be ready to fight for the championship when the time comes.

That said, I see Max driving with complete reckless abandon and without anything to lose in his mind. That changes significantly when there is a title at stake. He really got away with a lot of on-the-limit driving in terms of putting himself at risk. His race easily could have been brought to an end during the first corner incident as he cut across the track without heed. Both of his rear tires were hit but he managed to avoid a puncture miraculously. Perhaps he will settle down and become more sensible out there but right now I see a guy who will lose too many points to incidents to win a close title race. I think Max still has much to prove and much to learn but the talent is clearly there.

The point of my post is that, without seeing next year's cars, Hamilton and Vettel must still be consiedered the 2 favorites for the championship next season. This is particularly true when you consider the fact that Max and Daniel will likely take a lot more points off of each other than either Kimi or Bottas will take off of Vettel or Hamilton. As for Ocon and Leclerc; Ocon seems really good but not quite at that elite level. He's somewhat like Sainz for me. Leclerc isn't even in F1 and you think Hamilton and Vettel should be worried or expect to have a hard time because of him? Lol, come now.


I think Ocon is now as good as Verstappen was in his debut season. Ocon obviously is a bit more experienced but he is performing brilliantly at the moment.


What made Max so noticeable was that he came in at that level. He is/was also more gung-ho so more in the camera and press.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
I'm not. Ricciardo is top 4, while Vettel is only top 5.

So Vettel could still be best and Ricciardo 4th from that :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:14 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:27 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


Don't forget Verstappen retired in Azerbaijan when well ahead of Ricciardo. Ricciardo wouldn't have won either of the last two races but Verstappen may well have won Azerbaijan and could have won Singapore as well. In terms of luck I would guess that Ricciardo is still a lot better off.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


Don't forget Verstappen retired in Azerbaijan when well ahead of Ricciardo. Ricciardo wouldn't have won either of the last two races but Verstappen may well have won Azerbaijan and could have won Singapore as well. In terms of luck I would guess that Ricciardo is still a lot better off.

I assume you are meaning well ahead just because he qualified ahead in 5th compared to Ricciardo in 10th. Ricciardo was only a really long way behind because he had to box on lap 6 with problems with the air intake I think. When Verstappen retired, that will have been the main reason why Ricciardo was so far behind. If it wasn't for that, maybe he will have only just been behind Verstappen? Until he had to pit, he was maintaining a similar gap and Verstappen was hardly pulling away. There were just several cars between them due to his performance in qualifying.


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