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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 am 
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kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:40 am 
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kleefton wrote:
I have more faith in Mclaren Renault, but the Renault PU's reliability has been scary this year, to say the least. And they are supposed to go to a new concept for next year. Where have we heard that before?

Which Renault powered driver has used 3 seasons worth of MGU H and turbochargers?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


He was touted to be top tier. He has not shown anything to prove that he is top tier.
As far as how much I expected? Be closer to Alonso's pace overall would be a start.
And the car he has in his rookie year is similar to the car Verstappen had in his rookie year, yet Max was still able to distinguish himself. Stoffel has not.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:49 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have more faith in Mclaren Renault, but the Renault PU's reliability has been scary this year, to say the least. And they are supposed to go to a new concept for next year. Where have we heard that before?

Which Renault powered driver has used 3 seasons worth of MGU H and turbochargers?


How many times this season have Renault powered cars had trouble free weekends?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:08 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


He was touted to be top tier. He has not shown anything to prove that he is top tier.
As far as how much I expected? Be closer to Alonso's pace overall would be a start.
And the car he has in his rookie year is similar to the car Verstappen had in his rookie year, yet Max was still able to distinguish himself. Stoffel has not.


Pace wise similar, perhaps, but Verstappen wasn't starting at the back in half the races. Max scored 49 points in 2015. This year Alonso has scored 11. So it's hardly a comparison.

Verstappen had a rookie Sainz to go up against where as Vandoorne is against one of the top 10 greatest drivers of all time? Surely you can see how it's much harder for Vandoorne to stand out given these things?

I'm not saying he has been a revelation but he has done as good a job as anyone could have reasonably expected in the circumstance. He's closer to Alonso than Massa, Fissichella or Kimi for example. That's a very good start.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:13 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


He was touted to be top tier. He has not shown anything to prove that he is top tier.
As far as how much I expected? Be closer to Alonso's pace overall would be a start.
And the car he has in his rookie year is similar to the car Verstappen had in his rookie year, yet Max was still able to distinguish himself. Stoffel has not.

He has been closer to Alonso's pace in the latter half of the season, even quicker on some occasions. His car is nothing like Verstappen's 2015 Toro Rosso

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:33 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


He was touted to be top tier. He has not shown anything to prove that he is top tier.
As far as how much I expected? Be closer to Alonso's pace overall would be a start.
And the car he has in his rookie year is similar to the car Verstappen had in his rookie year, yet Max was still able to distinguish himself. Stoffel has not.

He has been closer to Alonso's pace in the latter half of the season, even quicker on some occasions. His car is nothing like Verstappen's 2015 Toro Rosso


Not really. He has only been quicker once, and it was while Alonso was running a different spec car. He has gotten closer, but he is still well off most of the time. The car is very similar to the 15' Toro rosso. It is more unreliable for sure, but it is a car fast enough to score points at almost every grand prix, which Alonso usually does when he is able to finish races.
I am not saying the guy is bad, but I was expecting great things. I have not seen them and I fail to see how one can think differently.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:41 pm 
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kleefton wrote:

Not really. He has only been quicker once, and it was while Alonso was running a different spec car. He has gotten closer, but he is still well off most of the time. The car is very similar to the 15' Toro rosso. It is more unreliable for sure, but it is a car fast enough to score points at almost every grand prix, which Alonso usually does when he is able to finish races.
I am not saying the guy is bad, but I was expecting great things. I have not seen them and I fail to see how one can think differently.


Being closer to Alonso than Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella is pretty great for a rookie.

And Vandoorne has the same amount of points finishes (and more points) than Alonso.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Much will depend on how Vandooorne performs next season. He came in to F1 as a very experienced rookie, Mclaren had high hopes for him and I think he has generally done well of late.

But if he outperforms Alonso more often next season then Mclaren may not feel the need to spend big on a Ricciardo type driver when Alonso retires from F1.


He really has not shown much at all this year has he? I hope he turns out to be a decent driver, but there were people rating him as better than Vettel and Hamilton. Uh...I don't think so.


?

For a rookie he has done very well from about Monaco on. How much do you expect him to show when he has to start at the back every other race?


He was touted to be top tier. He has not shown anything to prove that he is top tier.
As far as how much I expected? Be closer to Alonso's pace overall would be a start.
And the car he has in his rookie year is similar to the car Verstappen had in his rookie year, yet Max was still able to distinguish himself. Stoffel has not.


Pace wise similar, perhaps, but Verstappen wasn't starting at the back in half the races. Max scored 49 points in 2015. This year Alonso has scored 11. So it's hardly a comparison.

Verstappen had a rookie Sainz to go up against where as Vandoorne is against one of the top 10 greatest drivers of all time? Surely you can see how it's much harder for Vandoorne to stand out given these things?

I'm not saying he has been a revelation but he has done as good a job as anyone could have reasonably expected in the circumstance. He's closer to Alonso than Massa, Fissichella or Kimi for example. That's a very good start.


I was not talking about Verstappen's pace relative to Sainz. I was talking about the racecraft that Verstappen showed. Who can forget about the pass at Blauchimont? The move he pulled off on Rascasse using the blue flag to his advantage?. Where has Vandoorne done anything remotely similar? Where has he looked the part on track so far? May sound like I'm being harsh, but I read so many great things about the guy before he ever step foot in an F1 car, frankly I expected more.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:

Not really. He has only been quicker once, and it was while Alonso was running a different spec car. He has gotten closer, but he is still well off most of the time. The car is very similar to the 15' Toro rosso. It is more unreliable for sure, but it is a car fast enough to score points at almost every grand prix, which Alonso usually does when he is able to finish races.
I am not saying the guy is bad, but I was expecting great things. I have not seen them and I fail to see how one can think differently.


Being closer to Alonso than Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella is pretty great for a rookie.

And Vandoorne has the same amount of points finishes (and more points) than Alonso.


I don't get why you think he has been closer to Alonso than Massa. First of all the sample is quite small, but just the last 2 races there was more than 6 tenths between them in qualifying. The norm seems to be about 5 tenths+. Massa was closer than that if I recall.

Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:05 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have more faith in Mclaren Renault, but the Renault PU's reliability has been scary this year, to say the least. And they are supposed to go to a new concept for next year. Where have we heard that before?

Which Renault powered driver has used 3 seasons worth of MGU H and turbochargers?


How many times this season have Renault powered cars had trouble free weekends?

Plenty. The same cannot be said for McLaren.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:06 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:41 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have more faith in Mclaren Renault, but the Renault PU's reliability has been scary this year, to say the least. And they are supposed to go to a new concept for next year. Where have we heard that before?

Which Renault powered driver has used 3 seasons worth of MGU H and turbochargers?


How many times this season have Renault powered cars had trouble free weekends?

Plenty. The same cannot be said for McLaren.


So far this year Renault powered cars have had a race ending manufacturer failure at the following grand prix:
Australia, Bahrain, Russia, Monaco, Canada, Baku, UK, Hungary (2 DNFs), Belgium, Italy. Singapore, Japan, COTA, Mexico, Italy .

That's 15 out of 18 grand prix that they have had a race ending issue caused by the manufacturer. I didn't even bother checking how many times they've had issues in practice, qualifying, or whenever they were forced to swap a power unit.

I never said that Mclaren didn't have issues, we all know Honda has been the worst, but Renault hasn't been that much better in that front, to be honest. And recently their engine failures have become more frequent, for whatever reason. There is definitely cause to be concerned for next year.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:42 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:48 am 
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kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


Except that they have both had the same number of reliability failures and Ricciardo is ahead by 44 points. You could say they've been close, with Verstappen ahead especially in qualifying. But a mile?

Tell him he's dreamin'.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:32 am 
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Toby. wrote:
kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


Except that they have both had the same number of reliability failures and Ricciardo is ahead by 44 points. You could say they've been close, with Verstappen ahead especially in qualifying. But a mile?

Tell him he's dreamin'.


Plus Ricciardo's had 6 grid penalties totalling 65 grid positions for parts replacements to Verstappen's 3 grid penalties totalling 35 grid positions

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:53 am 
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And Daniel has had more
Failures where RBR was likely to score better points- even in Mexico he’d have likely got 3rd or perhaps 2nd -and 3rd at the US - whereas fewer retirements for Max lost him big points (but some obviously)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:54 am 
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And if Dan had gone 16th to 3rd or 2nd - I suspect that would have seen Dan as driver of the race - not Max - yet with reliability that would have happened


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:00 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
And Daniel has had more
Failures where RBR was likely to score better points- even in Mexico he’d have likely got 3rd or perhaps 2nd -and 3rd at the US - whereas fewer retirements for Max lost him big points (but some obviously)


Wins in Singapore and Baku? He would have definitely finished ahead of Ricciardo in both had he kept going.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:31 pm 
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If dan didn’t have mechanical issues in Singapore - he’d likely have won - yes that is one of the races where Max lost out - but you have to look at the whole season - and Dan has lost out overall more - and has had more grid penalties also - so for him
To be ahead on points suggests a better season - don’t you think?i

I don’t think Max would have finished with the same
Car in Singapore as an example


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:11 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
If dan didn’t have mechanical issues in Singapore - he’d likely have won - yes that is one of the races where Max lost out - but you have to look at the whole season - and Dan has lost out overall more - and has had more grid penalties also - so for him
To be ahead on points suggests a better season - don’t you think?i

I don’t think Max would have finished with the same
Car in Singapore as an example


Why would Max not have finished?

Vettel has had three first lap retirements that were not his fault. You are not factoring that in as well. Obviously you have Hungary for Dan as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Getting a wee bit off topic here.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:47 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


A theory not borne out by the points table.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:04 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


A theory not borne out by the points table.

I think the points table can often be misleading. Also I think it's a bit of a misnomer to suggest that they have been equally affected by reliability (especially with regards to points lost).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:17 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


A theory not borne out by the points table.


See Alonso and Vandoorne.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:39 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Saying that Vandoorne has the same points finishes and more points than Alonso is like bragging that Ricciardo has more points than Verstappen. Completely meaningless.

Why's that?

Ricciardo and Verstappen's reliability woes this season are now dead even. Ricciardo still has more points.


Who the hell cares? Verstappen has been the better driver this year. By a mile too.


A theory not borne out by the points table.

I think the points table can often be misleading. Also I think it's a bit of a misnomer to suggest that they have been equally affected by reliability (especially with regards to points lost).

Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:59 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.

Actually, the problem is that your facts do not clearly represent reality. It is not true that they both had as many technical failures. Verstappen had 5, where as Ricciardo had 4.

Then there's the fact that Max had two other DNFs of which it is highly debatable whether they were in fact due to his own wrongdoing. One of them being Singapore. Some people (I assume you're one of them) hand Verstappen the complete blame for that one, however the majority of fans (and journalists) seem to consider Verstappen largely innocent on that occasion. The other one being Spain where Bottas hit the kerb, then slid into Raikkonen who in turn collided with Verstappen.

So there you have two extra DNFs for Verstappen. In Spain he was clearly superior and beat Dan by nearly half a second in qualifying and he was the faster driver in all other sessions. In Singapore he quite narrowly outqualified Dan by less than a tenth, but technically he was still ahead of him at the time of his DNF.

Let's also consider that for nearly every DNF that Verstappen had, Ricciardo inherited points. Where that seldom happened the other way around because Max usually was ahead of Dan.

These are Verstappen's DNFs:
  • Spain (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Bahrain (Brake failure): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Canada (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Baku (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Austria (Car failure): Max did not start, Dan won qualifying so I'll give this one to him
  • Belgium (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Singapore (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF

In five of these cases Dan went on to inherit a podium position (and I am not counting Austria where he also landed a podium). In one of them he even took home the win. Those are some massive gains he made on his own team mate - purely by being at the right place, at the right time. Someone who was faster than him broke down: Max Verstappen.

These are Ricciardo's DNFs:
  • Australia (Car failure): Not ahead of Verstappen; however he was very unlucky that day
  • Russia (Brake failure): Not ahead of Verstappen
  • Hungary (Accident): Considering Verstappen caused this crash I'll happily give this one to Ricciardo
  • United States (Engine): Ahead of Verstappen
  • Mexico (Engine): Not ahead of Verstappen

Verstappen profited twice of his team mate's misfortune, Dan profited six times.

Keeping in mind that Verstappen has won the qualifying battle and has won two races on merit (whereas Ricciardo's win was based purely on luck) I'd say he has him beat.

Verstappen may have some rough edges - mostly Hungary comes to mind - but saying that Ricciardo has not profited of Verstappen's bad luck would be an outright lie. If Verstappen would have had a bit more luck with his car he would easily have outscored Dan this season. Even if you would exclude the two occasions in which he collided at the start and took away the points he scored in Hungary.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:15 pm 
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StanB123 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.

Actually, the problem is that your facts do not clearly represent reality. It is not true that they both had as many technical failures. Verstappen had 5, where as Ricciardo had 4.

Then there's the fact that Max had two other DNFs of which it is highly debatable whether they were in fact due to his own wrongdoing. One of them being Singapore. Some people (I assume you're one of them) hand Verstappen the complete blame for that one, however the majority of fans (and journalists) seem to consider Verstappen largely innocent on that occasion. The other one being Spain where Bottas hit the kerb, then slid into Raikkonen who in turn collided with Verstappen.

So there you have two extra DNFs for Verstappen. In Spain he was clearly superior and beat Dan by nearly half a second in qualifying and he was the faster driver in all other sessions. In Singapore he quite narrowly outqualified Dan by less than a tenth, but technically he was still ahead of him at the time of his DNF.

Let's also consider that for nearly every DNF that Verstappen had, Ricciardo inherited points. Where that seldom happened the other way around because Max usually was ahead of Dan.

These are Verstappen's DNFs:
  • Spain (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Bahrain (Brake failure): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Canada (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Baku (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Austria (Car failure): Max did not start, Dan won qualifying so I'll give this one to him
  • Belgium (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Singapore (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF

In five of these cases Dan went on to inherit a podium position (and I am not counting Austria where he also landed a podium). In one of them he even took home the win. Those are some massive gains he made on his own team mate - purely by being at the right place, at the right time. Someone who was faster than him broke down: Max Verstappen.

These are Ricciardo's DNFs:
  • Australia (Car failure): Not ahead of Verstappen; however he was very unlucky that day
  • Russia (Brake failure): Not ahead of Verstappen
  • Hungary (Accident): Considering Verstappen caused this crash I'll happily give this one to Ricciardo
  • United States (Engine): Ahead of Verstappen
  • Mexico (Engine): Not ahead of Verstappen

Verstappen profited twice of his team mate's misfortune, Dan profited six times.

Keeping in mind that Verstappen has won the qualifying battle and has won two races on merit (whereas Ricciardo's win was based purely on luck) I'd say he has him beat.

Verstappen may have some rough edges - mostly Hungary comes to mind - but saying that Ricciardo has not profited of Verstappen's bad luck would be an outright lie. If Verstappen would have had a bit more luck with his car he would easily have outscored Dan this season. Even if you would exclude the two occasions in which he collided at the start and took away the points he scored in Hungary.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:16 pm 
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StanB123 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.

Actually, the problem is that your facts do not clearly represent reality. It is not true that they both had as many technical failures. Verstappen had 5, where as Ricciardo had 4.

Then there's the fact that Max had two other DNFs of which it is highly debatable whether they were in fact due to his own wrongdoing. One of them being Singapore. Some people (I assume you're one of them) hand Verstappen the complete blame for that one, however the majority of fans (and journalists) seem to consider Verstappen largely innocent on that occasion. The other one being Spain where Bottas hit the kerb, then slid into Raikkonen who in turn collided with Verstappen.

So there you have two extra DNFs for Verstappen. In Spain he was clearly superior and beat Dan by nearly half a second in qualifying and he was the faster driver in all other sessions. In Singapore he quite narrowly outqualified Dan by less than a tenth, but technically he was still ahead of him at the time of his DNF.

Let's also consider that for nearly every DNF that Verstappen had, Ricciardo inherited points. Where that seldom happened the other way around because Max usually was ahead of Dan.

These are Verstappen's DNFs:
  • Spain (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Bahrain (Brake failure): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Canada (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Baku (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Austria (Car failure): Max did not start, Dan won qualifying so I'll give this one to him
  • Belgium (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Singapore (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF

In five of these cases Dan went on to inherit a podium position (and I am not counting Austria where he also landed a podium). In one of them he even took home the win. Those are some massive gains he made on his own team mate - purely by being at the right place, at the right time. Someone who was faster than him broke down: Max Verstappen.

These are Ricciardo's DNFs:
  • Australia (Car failure): Not ahead of Verstappen; however he was very unlucky that day
  • Russia (Brake failure): Not ahead of Verstappen
  • Hungary (Accident): Considering Verstappen caused this crash I'll happily give this one to Ricciardo
  • United States (Engine): Ahead of Verstappen
  • Mexico (Engine): Not ahead of Verstappen

Verstappen profited twice of his team mate's misfortune, Dan profited six times.

Keeping in mind that Verstappen has won the qualifying battle and has won two races on merit (whereas Ricciardo's win was based purely on luck) I'd say he has him beat.

Verstappen may have some rough edges - mostly Hungary comes to mind - but saying that Ricciardo has not profited of Verstappen's bad luck would be an outright lie. If Verstappen would have had a bit more luck with his car he would easily have outscored Dan this season. Even if you would exclude the two occasions in which he collided at the start and took away the points he scored in Hungary.


Great post except your wrong about Austria. Verstappen did start but was spun into from behind at turn 1 when Kvyat and Alonso got together. Nothing he could do about that one so your main point still stands.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:20 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.


Pretty similar now isn't it? 7 for Vertsappen and 5 for Ricciardo.

Interestingly neither driver has been at fault for any of his retirements.

I could trot out many facts that favour Verstappen that you seem happy to ignore. How about - Verstappen has won more races on merit in the last 5 races that Ricciardo has in the last 128?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Great post except your wrong about Austria. Verstappen did start but was spun into from behind at turn 1 when Kvyat and Alonso got together. Nothing he could do about that one so your main point still stands.

Oops, I based most of it on the BBC site and their notation was a bit odd. But I suppose we can officially hand that one to Ricciardo then.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:57 am 
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StanB123 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Funny how most Verstappen fans are quite happy to ignore the facts. The fact that Max is supposedly more talented is all that counts despite his inferiority at actually getting the car home.

Actually, the problem is that your facts do not clearly represent reality. It is not true that they both had as many technical failures. Verstappen had 5, where as Ricciardo had 4.

Then there's the fact that Max had two other DNFs of which it is highly debatable whether they were in fact due to his own wrongdoing. One of them being Singapore. Some people (I assume you're one of them) hand Verstappen the complete blame for that one, however the majority of fans (and journalists) seem to consider Verstappen largely innocent on that occasion. The other one being Spain where Bottas hit the kerb, then slid into Raikkonen who in turn collided with Verstappen.

So there you have two extra DNFs for Verstappen. In Spain he was clearly superior and beat Dan by nearly half a second in qualifying and he was the faster driver in all other sessions. In Singapore he quite narrowly outqualified Dan by less than a tenth, but technically he was still ahead of him at the time of his DNF.

Let's also consider that for nearly every DNF that Verstappen had, Ricciardo inherited points. Where that seldom happened the other way around because Max usually was ahead of Dan.

These are Verstappen's DNFs:
  • Spain (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Bahrain (Brake failure): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Canada (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Baku (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Austria (Car failure): Max did not start, Dan won qualifying so I'll give this one to him
  • Belgium (Engine): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF
  • Singapore (Accident): Max was ahead of Dan prior to his DNF

In five of these cases Dan went on to inherit a podium position (and I am not counting Austria where he also landed a podium). In one of them he even took home the win. Those are some massive gains he made on his own team mate - purely by being at the right place, at the right time. Someone who was faster than him broke down: Max Verstappen.

These are Ricciardo's DNFs:
  • Australia (Car failure): Not ahead of Verstappen; however he was very unlucky that day
  • Russia (Brake failure): Not ahead of Verstappen
  • Hungary (Accident): Considering Verstappen caused this crash I'll happily give this one to Ricciardo
  • United States (Engine): Ahead of Verstappen
  • Mexico (Engine): Not ahead of Verstappen

Verstappen profited twice of his team mate's misfortune, Dan profited six times.

Keeping in mind that Verstappen has won the qualifying battle and has won two races on merit (whereas Ricciardo's win was based purely on luck) I'd say he has him beat.

Verstappen may have some rough edges - mostly Hungary comes to mind - but saying that Ricciardo has not profited of Verstappen's bad luck would be an outright lie. If Verstappen would have had a bit more luck with his car he would easily have outscored Dan this season. Even if you would exclude the two occasions in which he collided at the start and took away the points he scored in Hungary.


Spain - Not really Verstappen's fault, but he was having a run of finding himself in places where trouble found him. Ricciardo seems to have more of an instinct of how to place his car and avoid trouble.

Singapore - In my opinion, Verstappen was to blame for this one. He was moving slowly over on Raikkonen and that ultimately triggered the contact.

It's not fair to award those races to Verstappen when Ricciardo consistently manages to stay out of trouble (or indeed recovers from trouble) and this is part of the reason the latter accumulates more points.

I don't think anyone would argue this year that Verstappen seems to have the edge on pace over Ricciardo, but Ricciardo - on average - has better results on Sunday.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:10 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
How about - Verstappen has won more races on merit in the last 5 races that Ricciardo has in the last 128?

Verstappen has never won a race when the fastest car ran clean, so that's the same as Ricciardo. Vettel was quicker than him in both Malaysia and Mexico, although in Mexico he threw away his own chances by hitting Lewis.

But if you're going to consider Malaysia and Mexico as being on merit, why not Hungary and Belgium 2014 for Ricciardo? In Hungary he actually beat both Mercs on the road, although one of them had to start from the back (a lot like Malaysia, if you consider that the Ferrari was probably the quickest car instead of the Merc) and in Belgium they hit each other - much like Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico.

Verstappen has been seriously impressive this year, but I don't think that's any reason to start taking away Ricciardo's past wins to make him look better. He really doesn't need the help.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:08 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How about - Verstappen has won more races on merit in the last 5 races that Ricciardo has in the last 128?

Verstappen has never won a race when the fastest car ran clean, so that's the same as Ricciardo. Vettel was quicker than him in both Malaysia and Mexico, although in Mexico he threw away his own chances by hitting Lewis.

But if you're going to consider Malaysia and Mexico as being on merit, why not Hungary and Belgium 2014 for Ricciardo? In Hungary he actually beat both Mercs on the road, although one of them had to start from the back (a lot like Malaysia, if you consider that the Ferrari was probably the quickest car instead of the Merc) and in Belgium they hit each other - much like Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico.

Verstappen has been seriously impressive this year, but I don't think that's any reason to start taking away Ricciardo's past wins to make him look better. He really doesn't need the help.


Hungary I would say.

Belgium no. He won because two cars in front of him crashed into each other.

In Malaysia and Mexico Verstappen didn't need those in front to drop out. I guess that's what I mean. Nobody's taking away Ricciardo wins but there is a difference between the way Verstappen has won races and the way Ricciardo has won races.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:12 am 
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I agree, Ricciardo has won races on merit, just not this year. I do personally think that Verstappen would have beat them all in Mexico, but we can only speculate because on Vettel's DNF.

I do have problems with awarding Daniel credit for staying out of trouble. But that is because I am a firm believer in Senna's good old: "If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver"

I am a big fan of Dan, but just needed to shut up GingerFurball. I noticed in the Brazil race thread he posted something along the lines of: I wonder who Verstappen is going to crash into this time. He lost all credibility there for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
In Malaysia and Mexico Verstappen didn't need those in front to drop out. I guess that's what I mean. Nobody's taking away Ricciardo wins but there is a difference between the way Verstappen has won races and the way Ricciardo has won races.

I suppose there is a distinction between actively inheriting places and merely having the threat taken away, in which case I concede your point (accepting Hungary, but not Belgium).

However, I do think that without Hamilton and Vettel hitting each other in Mexico that race might have looked quite different (although I also agree there's a good chance Max had the pace to win anyway) and I definitely think that Vettel would have won Malaysia if he'd qualified and started on pole.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:21 am 
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This was the season I dearly hoped Red Bull had a title-contending car so that Dan could have a real shot at it. Because I suspected this would be the last year that Dan would outscore Max. I think Max's performance is still on an upward trajectory and I'll be very surprised if Dan can contend with that next year and onward

Dan is a canny operator and I'd never rule him out. But I hope behind the scenes the gears are in motion for a move to Merc or Ferrari

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