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 Post subject: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:48 pm 
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What do you guys think of him? I think he is a very very underrated driver and for some one to score points with Manor and this year's Sauber, he must be special . Not sure why every one overlooks him and now he almost finds himself out of F1 for 2018.

Even the so called prima-donna attitude people talk about, I havent seen any of that in the interviews. In fact he comes across as a nice chap.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:52 pm 
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A solid driver but I don't think he's top tier material. I'd favour Ocon and Vandoorne to be better and that's not even mentioning Sainz and monster Max. Leclerc is on his way too and I suspect he'll be about as good as Max. Pascal isn't exactly smacking mediocre (relatively) team-mates out the park.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:11 pm 
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I do think that he is a top material and the future champ if he is provided with the appropriate equipment. I was following him more closely than some other drivers and I am so far quite impressed. He does escape a lot of attention because so far he was always driving for backmarker teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:41 pm 
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I think he is very much over rated. Not presumably by the teams though. I do not see him as a bad driver, just as 'standard newcomer'.

There have been many of his ilk that come and go and a few that just sort of hang around mid field. He arrived with fanfairs, which immediately make him out to be top class, which probably did him a mis service instead of letting him settle quietly.
I would place him below mid league of the current drivers ( now that Palmer has gone :] )


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Unfortunately he's not had much opportunity to shine by only ever driving the worst car on the grid and having a rather mediocre team mate as his only point of comparison, aside from Ocon who seemed to match him pretty well despite coming into the team mid-season and being a total rookie to F1.

I think he's shown enough promise to deserve a chance at a mid-field team to really show what he can do, there have been a handful of really impressive performances from him. But I don't see him as world champion material and can't see Mercedes giving him a seat.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:01 pm 
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He's F1 history next year but like Kyvat could do well in other series. I rate Kyvat as being faster but more flakier in a race.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:06 pm 
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ajf1fan, how old are you exactly? Also, how are you still alive?


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:11 pm 
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He should be wiping the floor with Ericsson but he isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He should be wiping the floor with Ericsson but he isn't.


Ericsson is nowhere near as bad as people think though. I think Wehrlein is good. How good I'm unsure.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He should be wiping the floor with Ericsson but he isn't.


Ericsson is nowhere near as bad as people think though. I think Wehrlein is good. How good I'm unsure.

Ericsson is not a top 10 driver and Wehrlein is hardly any quicker, it doesn't ring outstanding talent when viewing him eventually getting a Mercedes seat.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Pascal is a middle of the road F1 driver. He is slightly better than Ericsson, but that's it. The fact some people were getting excited when he was briefly rumored to get the Mercedes seat was always comical to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:10 am 
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He getting snubbed by Force India, despite scoring points for Manor, was the final nail in his coffin.

Not listening to the engineer to shut his engine off was a heavy price to pay. After doing a test with Force India even, most of the team personnel & engineers didn't like the experience with him. When FI had to make a decision regarding Nico's replacement, this was a factor that went heavily against Pascal.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:41 am 
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I think he's a bit overrated.

It's true he hasn't had a stellar car to get decent results with, but he also hasn't shown anything to justify the hype.

He deserves more time in F1 and probably a better car next year, but he's no superstar.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:06 pm 
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I think he has the talent to be on the grid. He at least deserves a shot in a moderately competitive car before he can truly be cast aside as another middle of the road driver

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:36 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I think he has the talent to be on the grid. He at least deserves a shot in a moderately competitive car before he can truly be cast aside as another middle of the road driver

I would agree that he's not had a proper chance but you know Mercedes have not given up on him it's just a case that they can't find him a seat for this year, they tried to get him in the Williams car.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 pm 
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To deserve a shot in a better team you have to start by outclassing your teammate otherwise you are not showing yourself to be that extraordinary to eventually become a wdc. Has Wehrlein really done this yet. He seems quick but not ultra quick to me so you will always be subject to other factors coming into play if you want to be selected. The best drivers always stand out in lessor teams, that's how they advance. I don't see any outperforming here by him.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:35 pm 
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mas wrote:
To deserve a shot in a better team you have to start by outclassing your teammate otherwise you are not showing yourself to be that extraordinary to eventually become a wdc. Has Wehrlein really done this yet. He seems quick but not ultra quick to me so you will always be subject to other factors coming into play if you want to be selected. The best drivers always stand out in lessor teams, that's how they advance. I don't see any outperforming here by him.

Jules Bianchi was widely believed to have earned his shot at a good drive. I'm no Marcus Ericsson fan but I would place him above Max Chilton

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:53 pm 
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I agree with a poster he saying that he came on the scene with all this fanfare which elevates his reputation above what it should've been.

He is quick but inconsistent.

He clearly isn't wanted by many teams. The reason why, I do not know - we can only speculate.

Is it his attitude? (But a driver with attitude can be tamed or nurtured)
Is his feedback poor?
Can he just drive quick but not develop a car?

His general race craft is not too bad either, and keeps it relatively clean. However, with Ocon and Max doing much better relative to their respective teams' budget/speed - he wouldn't be chosen over any of them.

Then he has the dilemma of LeClerc coming onto the scene next year - someone who is tipped higher than Vandoorne, matching Hamilton in terms of future champion material.

I think he should focus on winning other categories than stay in the midfield battle for the rest of his career.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:04 pm 
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The Force India personnel didn't strike a chord with Pascal. Excerpt from the article below:
'It had nothing to do with performance.

In the test something happened, something they were not happy, and that's it.

They think Esteban is fitting better into the team - that's it.

The decision had nothing to do with feedback or performance, but had something to do with how they were getting along with me, something on a personal side.

I cannot change it anymore and I can just learn from it and do better in the future.'

http://en.f1i.com/news/84250-wehrlein-explains-force-india-snub.html

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Well, A race weekend has gone by where Ericsson has looked a fair bit better than Wehrlein until he had to retire. It is still possible for them to be even in the qualifying battle too. 9 - 7 to Wehrlein so far. And on F1 Fanatic, their average qualifying gap was tiny on the mid season driver rankings. Probably because on average, although Ericsson was usually behind, it was hardly by anything. But when Ericsson beats Wehrlein, it has often been by quite a lot this year. I think the average time gap could be in Ericsson's favour if he continues to beat Wehrlein in at leased 1 of the next 2 qualifying sessions. Pace wise, I think they are possibly one of the closest pair of team mates on the grid infact. But Wehrlein makes a fair few less mistakes which makes him better on the whole. I think both would be good enough for a midfield team, but aren't really good enough for any better. But because of Ericsson's money and given that he is at least decent on the whole, he certainly should be worth keeping for next year with Sauber IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Given who 'owns' Sauber right now, any comparisons are surely moot given what may be going on behind the scenes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:25 pm 
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I think that the reality is that we as fans who watch racing primarily on TV, do not know what the real issue is with Pascal. It's obvious that there are some intangible issues with him in terms of how he gets along with other people in the team. It seems that this is a young man who just rubs people the wrong way somehow. As viewers from afar, we simply don't have any real insight into that or how big of an issue it is.

To me, he clearly has superior talent to Marcus and he has some potential overall. I just think this is fast turning into another golden generation to perhaps match what we saw in 2006-2007. During those two years Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Nico Rosberg and Robert Kubica all came into the sport. We're now into a time where Verstappen, Sainz, Ocon and soon LeClerc will all be in F1. Pascal might just end up being left out. Somehow he played his cards wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Slightly tongue in cheek, but you get the idea, if you had to chose between (da-da-da-dattta daa) Pascal Wehrlein, and (oooooh no) Lance Stroll, who would you take in your team?

Me, I would take Stroll without his backing. That tells you what I think :twisted:

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:58 pm 
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I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:59 pm 
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http://www.planetf1.com/news/sauber-opt ... 18-report/

Looks like Sauber are dropping Wehrlein now. I do think it is a shame as he is better than Ericsson, although not by much. But Ericsson's money clearly helps them and other than his crashes, Ericsson has looked about even on pace with his team mate. It's just that he's crashed 3 times during the race that has let him down a bit. But then drivers like Sainz have crashed out of 3 races too as well as affecting other drivers. So for the amount of criticism he often gets, I think he's good enough to deserve to stay. Looks like they are going for Ericsson and Charles Leclerc for next year. Maybe Wehrlein will get another chance at a later stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 pm 
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moby wrote:
Slightly tongue in cheek, but you get the idea, if you had to chose between (da-da-da-dattta daa) Pascal Wehrlein, and (oooooh no) Lance Stroll, who would you take in your team?

Me, I would take Stroll without his backing. That tells you what I think :twisted:

What do you think?

Performance wise I would take Wehrlein, Stroll has the biggest qualifying deficit of all the drivers and that is against Massa who apparently is over the hill.

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:11 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:13 pm 
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moby wrote:
Slightly tongue in cheek, but you get the idea, if you had to chose between (da-da-da-dattta daa) Pascal Wehrlein, and (oooooh no) Lance Stroll, who would you take in your team?

Me, I would take Stroll without his backing. That tells you what I think :twisted:

What do you think?


Wehrlein is a way better driver than Stroll. Stroll has good races but most he is a long way off the pace and that's using Massa as a barometer.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:13 am 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.

Not really. Ericsson was frequently running a different car from Kobayashi.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:49 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.

Not really. Ericsson was frequently running a different car from Kobayashi.


I don't recall this at all. I remember him beating Kobayashi fair and square quite a few times in a row after being thrashed early in the season. But never heard that they were running different cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:03 am 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.

Not really. Ericsson was frequently running a different car from Kobayashi.


I don't recall this at all. I remember him beating Kobayashi fair and square quite a few times in a row after being thrashed early in the season. But never heard that they were running different cars.

They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:41 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:52 am 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.

Nah


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:17 am 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.


Nasr outperformed Marcus pretty convincingly throughout 2015. It was more in Ericcson's favour last year but Nasr still outpointed him.

The fact that there is even a debate here (and the amount of squirming and deflecting from Wehrlein apologists) kind of proves that Pascal hasn't stamped his authority on any of his two most recent teammates.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:08 am 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.


It's well documented that at the end of their season they were basically running two different cars. They couldn't afford new parts for Kobayashi.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.


It's well documented that at the end of their season they were basically running two different cars. They couldn't afford new parts for Kobayashi.

And Kobayashi insinuated that his car had become a hazard to drive

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:41 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I have been a bit disappointed with Pascal. I know the Sauber is a very uncompetitive car, but he just hasn't performed like you would expect a top driver in a poor car to perform. There hasn't been a breakthrough performance.

Force India choosing Ocon over Wehrlein speaks volumes. Ericcson isn't a world beater, Kobayashi outperformed him in the Caterham, Nasr outperformed him in the Sauber more often than the other way around. A future top driver would be doing a convincing number on Marcus.

Actually I think that last year Ericsson out performed Nasr, probably one reason why he's no longer in F1?


Yeah u are right. Moreover ericsson somehow turned the tables on kobayashi too at the end of their partnership.


Nasr outperformed Marcus pretty convincingly throughout 2015. It was more in Ericcson's favour last year but Nasr still outpointed him.

The fact that there is even a debate here (and the amount of squirming and deflecting from Wehrlein apologists) kind of proves that Pascal hasn't stamped his authority on any of his two most recent teammates.

Wehrlein has 3 points finishes in backmarker cars. None of Wehrlein's teammates have even scored a solitary point

There is a debate to be had over whether Ericsson's teammates get the same car as him because we know it happened with Kobayashi in the past. After that we saw the swing in form between Ericsson and Nasr - maybe it was driver, maybe it was a repeat favouritism scenario. Which leads us to the present season with Wehrlein - who the hell knows?

Ocon got the FI job because Pascal is a bell-end. On the one hand FI chose correctly, Ocon has been brilliant this year. On the other hand who knows if Wehrlein would have been the better choice - would he have fallen out with Perez and gotten into a number of collisions with him?

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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.


It's well documented that at the end of their season they were basically running two different cars. They couldn't afford new parts for Kobayashi.


Care to share a link to all that documentation?

In any case I may have been wrong, but why would Caterham allow their weaker driver to have the better parts? You say it's money, but surely they should make the on track performance a priority? No wonder they're no longer around.


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 Post subject: Re: Pascal Wehrlein
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They were. Marcus was bringing money to the team and so he got preference on parts.


In that case he would have dominated Kobayashi the whole season then.

Nah... I believe Ericsson got better towards the end.


It's well documented that at the end of their season they were basically running two different cars. They couldn't afford new parts for Kobayashi.


Care to share a link to all that documentation?

In any case I may have been wrong, but why would Caterham allow their weaker driver to have the better parts? You say it's money, but surely they should make the on track performance a priority? No wonder they're no longer around.

They're no longer around because they ran out of money. Marcus was giving them money so...


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