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Opinion on Max's overtake of Kimi
Poll ended at Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:31 pm
Completely legal - should not have received penalty 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Technically illegal - should not have received penalty 24%  24%  [ 23 ]
Mostly illegal - penalty was justified 12%  12%  [ 12 ]
Completely Illegal - penalty was justified 63%  63%  [ 61 ]
Total votes : 97
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Simple poll. Where do you stand on the Max / Kimi overtake.

Options are:

Completely legal - should not have received penalty
Select this if you think there was nothing wrong with the move and should never have received a penalty under any circumstances

Technically illegal - should not have received penalty
Select this if you think the move was technically illegal - because it exceeded the track limits - however given the fact track limits were not being enforced and there were other examples of overtakes also exceeding the track limits it means the precedent had been set.

Also select this if you think that HAD the other examples been penalized then you feel Max should also have been penalised.

Mostly illegal - penalty was justified
Select this if you think the move was illegal, but in the grey area. In this case while you acknowledge other moves were similar, Max's move was an extreme case.

Select this if you feel that other drivers should probably have been penalized, but their cases were probably not as severe due to their circumstances.

Completely Illegal - penalty was justified
Select this if you feel, regardless of other cases, Max's case was open and shut and other examples are irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:41 pm 
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I voted technically illegal,

as you stated in the definition itself there were many examples throughout the weekend that were deemed questionable regarding what the track limits were but no action was taken. But alas, the last one caught with there hand in the cookie jar gets blamed for eating all the cookies.

Should a racer be allowed to cut a corner, NO not at all but given the fact that track limits were abused by many why not see what happens. He saw what he considered a gap and went for it. If i was kimi would i be livid at the move absolutely. If i was versteppen would i have gone for it with the podium on the line without a doubt. Your making split sec decisons at high speeds. Go for it and let the stewards sort it out after, leave it all on the track. Its easy to analyze everything after its done not so easy to consider all the options in the heat of the moment.




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Last edited by Mayhem on Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:41 pm 
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May be Kimi should have closed the door but then I think MV would have hit him. Kimi did not force him out. He saw a chance and went for it. But that was completely illegal move and he deserved the penalty.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Voted completely illegal penalty justified.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Voted Technically Illegal

In the video (at the end) you can also clearly see Max avoiding a collision with Kimi when he comes to the inside.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:16 pm 
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The facts are clear it was completely illegal, there can be no other options. Its whether the stewards decide to act or not in all cases not only the last corner.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Can't really see how anyone can consider this anything other than completely illegal. He sliced the corner completely off.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Completely illegal. Although I found the whole thing very entertaining I immediately had a feeling that he'd cop a penalty. Max's transgression was different in that he cut a corner on the inside. Others completing overtakes off track were drifting past the white line on the outside to get it done. If anyone else cut the inside corner to gain a position but got away with it then Max has been hard done by

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:39 pm 
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It was illegal, the penalty was technically sound...
However, it stinks of double measures. In my oppinion stewards should treat any incident during any time of the race the same. It's interpretation of the rules, and even if those are not always the same among people, please be consistent during 1 (and each) weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Completely illegal. He cut the corner to overtake where there wasn't room for an overtake. Penalty justified, since it was the only way they could make him give the place back at that late stage of the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:11 pm 
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How can a poll option be that the move was legal when the FIA has flatly stated that leaving the track to pass is illegal??

Fans dont get to make the rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:31 pm 
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100% illegal.

I get the frustration about enforcement of track limit rules but there is a big difference between running wide on exit and actually cutting a whole corner.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Interesting Nico Rosberg thinks no penalty.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:45 pm 
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BackwardsInFlames wrote:
100% illegal.

I get the frustration about enforcement of track limit rules but there is a big difference between running wide on exit and actually cutting a whole corner.


exactly. i dont understand people (including pundits, horner etc) arguing that others were going outside the track limits. did anyone else cut inside a corner by half a metre to make an overtake. its a slam dunk. webber and coulthard wound me up. might as well be channel 4 f1 brought to you by red bull racing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:04 pm 
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He cut a corner to overtake a car. I don’t really see how much more of a clear cut penalty you can get in F1.

The amount of pundits and ex-drivers thinking it was fine is astounding to me tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Thanks mikeyg123, says a lot about Nico Rosberg!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Completely illegal. He overtook someone by taking a short-cut. I appreciate the point people are making about the inconsistent application of the track limit rules and I agree that in general it needs to be clamped down on much more than it currently is, but for me cutting a corner is a more extreme transgression of that rule than running out wide on the exit. Cutting a corner almost always gives an advantage; when running wide the advantage gained is not always clear.

Incidentally I do recall seeing Max cut an apex around the esses section at various times during the race. This should have been picked up on as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:27 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
and there were other examples of overtakes also exceeding the track limits it means the precedent had been set.

What were these other overtakes?

If we're talking precedents then Verstappen's punishment was actually pretty lenient. A drive through/20 second penalty tends to be standard when you overtake someone off the track.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Interesting Nico Rosberg thinks no penalty.

We have countless examples from his career to prove that Rosberg doesn't understand the concept of wheel to wheel racing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:02 pm 
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It's not so much cutting the corner that's the problem - more that fact the he gained so much by doing it.

We've seen Charlie Whiting addres this before - yes someone went off but if they didn't gain then let it go.

In this instance Verstappen, intentionally or not, made a pass that he wouldnt not have been able to make had he stayed within the track limits.

Nothing against Verstappen, he's fantastic, but it would set a bad precedent if he had been allowed to keep the place.

Reminds me of Zanardis infamous corkscrew pass.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:15 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Interesting Nico Rosberg thinks no penalty.

We have countless examples from his career to prove that Rosberg doesn't understand the concept of wheel to wheel racing.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

Neither had reached the corner though yet and Kimi was well in his rights to take the straightest line to that corner as was Max but when Max saw that he wasn't going to reach the apex alongside Kimi he should have backed off or made the turn with at least two wheels on track.

As for track limits well it is like trying to herd 20 wildcats, they will all try to break and bend the rules and all you can do with the current rules and soft track limits is penalise the worst offenders as in those who do it to overtake as Max did. Generally though I am with Lauda on this, let them go off track, just put gravel or barriers if you want to penalise them for doing it otherwise you will continue to get these boring repetitive controversial incidents with 'he did it why can't I' defences ad-infinitum.

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Last edited by mas on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
How can a poll option be that the move was legal when the FIA has flatly stated that leaving the track to pass is illegal??

Fans dont get to make the rules.

Firstly, no one has even voted for that option (and it sure isn't my opinion).

Secondly, laws are written in language, not precise mathematics, and often the FIA write a rule with an intent - but the fuzziness of human language means that intent is not enforceable, it also means that the FIA can only have an interpretation of their own rules.

Thirdly, laws are also based on precedents - overtakes where cars have left the track have been allowed - for example at the start or at turn 1, turn 12 and turn 19 during the race. There is nothing in the regulations to allow any of this, nothing in the regulations to say that the FIA can say it is OK
The only thing in the regulations about track limits can be found here:


FIA Sporting Regulations 27.3 wrote:
Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part
of the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.

Therefore, based on precedents, there have been overtakes at those corners.

Charlie allowing more freedom at the start is just a precedent - the rules do not actually allow for it. Charlie saying it ok to go wide at Turn 19 is just a precedent - the rules do not allow for it. Therefore, it is not unreasonable for someone to have the opinion that the FIA have set the precedent in the past for allowing for off track excursions.

The only part in the rules that does mention Charlie is that cars can avoid penalty by giving back their advantage at his discretion. The rules are also written in a case by case basis, meaning that Charlie can't give a blanket "if you do this then that will be ok" - even if he acts according to a common system, that again, legally, is just a precedent.

Now - I'll be clear - I don't agree with an opinion that Max's overtake was completely ok. I voted for "Mostly illegal" because I think while it was the worst case of an off track overtake, there were multiple examples throughout the race of a less degree to have benefitted. Max did clearly short cut the corner, which allowed him to take a wider line through it and carry much more speed. However, Sainz going wide at 19 did benefit him positionally. While they may be able to argue that going wide at 19 costs ultimate lap time, holding track position counts for a hell of a lot more than being marginally slower on the lap.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:23 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

I see room on the inside of Kimi's car but Verstappen chose to go all 4 wheels off the track.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

I see room on the inside of Kimi's car but Verstappen chose to go all 4 wheels off the track.

I do think lamo is very good at drawing these diagrams, but I think Verstappen was the one who put himself in the situation. Why should Kimi not go where he wants? As he followed his normal racing line, Verstappen will hardly have been able to get past there without cutting the corner anyway. Verstappen tried something that just wouldn't work and I think it was only him in the wrong. Kimi in my view was totally fair.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Raikkonen has left more than enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:07 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

Going by the screenshots, it looks like Max had enough room to stay on track (he only needs to keep one wheel touching the white line) but instead chooses to take all four wheels off track and cut the corner entirely though.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:22 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Raikkonen has left more than enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track.


Not according to the rules. It's more than a cars width from the edge of the track. By the rules, Verstappen should not have to puts any part of his car over the white line to avoid contact. Kimi did not leave enough space for that.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Kimi left adequate room given the situation. Just because Max tried to force Kimi out of his line, that doesn't mean Kimi has to roll over and play dead for him. Kimi was not at fault in this incident... Max was.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:32 pm 
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lamo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Raikkonen has left more than enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track.


Not according to the rules. It's more than a cars width from the edge of the track. By the rules, Verstappen should not have to puts any part of his car over the white line to avoid contact. Kimi did not leave enough space for that.

If one is to use your definition of that rule, every driver should "dive-bomb" the car(s) in front on any corner as long as they can get a part of their car between the opponent and the edge of the track...and they would be in the right, regardless of whether or not they had a chance.? Imagine the chaos.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.


As can be seen in the images MV could still put at least A wheel on the white line, with plenty of tarmac to spare... He didn't, therefore granting the penalty.

I never had great respect for Rosberg's track limits dealings and considerations... :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:43 am 
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As not much was clear live due to shot angle on live broadcast, I initially questioned the penalty. Replays tell completely different story. There was no crowding by Kimi, he was taking normal defensive line to the corner as he has right to do so. For once, Kimi had car in perfect position to defend that corner as he was entitled to so do. Max had multiple options, slow down, go on the outside back out of overtake, or cut the corner. He chose the last option and got penalised.
And I wont hesitate to say, Rosberd is dead wrong in his statement. There was never a chance of collision, definitely not because of anything Kimi did. Max had plenty of time to yield. And I am surprised that he forgot that even if you cut the corner to avoid collision or locking brakes, if you gain any advantage or positions, you are supposed to give that position back.

There was no mistake from kimi and so Max was never going to be allowed to keep his advantage. This happened on second last corner and he got fair penalty for that. Unless you are deliberately pushed off by a driver who broke guidelines and rules governing defensive driving, you simply cannot cut the corner and keep the advantage.

It was a slam dunk penalty after watching replays.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:44 am 
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I just can't see how anyone could argue this was a legal move, he clearly cut the corner and his entire car was outside the track limits. The stewards got it 100% right.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:18 am 
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Blake wrote:
lamo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Raikkonen has left more than enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track.


Not according to the rules. It's more than a cars width from the edge of the track. By the rules, Verstappen should not have to puts any part of his car over the white line to avoid contact. Kimi did not leave enough space for that.

If one is to use your definition of that rule, every driver should "dive-bomb" the car(s) in front on any corner as long as they can get a part of their car between the opponent and the edge of the track...and they would be in the right, regardless of whether or not they had a chance.? Imagine the chaos.


It’s not my definition, its the rules. If a car gets a significant portion alongside it earns space. If that space was left, Max would have made the corner legally without contact. So comparing to a divebomb is incorrect, a dive bomb suggests the overtaking car is somewhat out of control and not going to make the corner.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:22 am 
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This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:31 am 
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Not if he doesn't get that "significant portion" along side until after the other driver has established his line.

So you are suggesting that by the rules Kimi was obligated to let Max plow on thru with an uncontested line??? Whatever happened to a driver backing-off when the only option is to crash or break the rules? Or was it Kimi's responsibility to back-off... Max got away with a lot of that kind of cr@p last year... many of us wondered why. Lamo, now I am confused by your spirited defense of a move nearly feel was clear-cut outside the rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:55 am 
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When I saw this live I thought it was an awesome move. Watching replays from various angles it's a clear-cut penalty, definitely illegal. However, I've voted for 'mostly illegal' on the basis that, technically, other drivers exceeded track limits during overtaking moves. The difference is that one cannot say with certainty that they gained an advantage by doing so, in contrast to the example of Max on Kimi.

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