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COTA best overtake of the race
Poll ended at Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:45 pm
Vettel on hamilton (race start) 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Riccardo on bottas (lap 4) 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Hamilton on vettel (lap 6) 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Hamilton on Versteppen (lap 23) 6%  6%  [ 4 ]
Sainz on Perez (lap 34) 29%  29%  [ 19 ]
Kimi on Bottas (lap 42) 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Vettel on Bottas (lap 51) 34%  34%  [ 22 ]
Versteppen on bottas (lap 52) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Versteppen on kimi (lap 56) 17%  17%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 65
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:45 pm 
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This race at COTA had many great over takes. Some were short lived but memorable none the less. So what was your favorite overtake regardless of its end result.




Cota Highlight video (shows most overtakes listed)
https://youtu.be/aljfbhxtdyc

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Last edited by Mayhem on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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For me the best move was vettel on bottas at lap 51 needing to get passed to stop the bleeding of the championship.

Then versteppen on kimi & riccardo on bottas (very late breaking outta nowhere.) it was short lived but what a move

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Got to be Vettel on Bottas. Contender for overtake of the season


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Carlos Sainz for me.

Overall a superb race though. I'm coming to the conclusion that COTA is the best racetrack on the calendar.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Got to be Vettel on Bottas. Contender for overtake of the season

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Vettel on Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Got to be Vettel on Bottas. Contender for overtake of the season

:thumbup:



agreed, it had many good elements to it (desperation, traffic, risk)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Voted Hamilton on Verstappen.

I think that Sainz on Perez, Vettel on Bottas and Verstappen on Kimi were more spectacular and entertaining to watch, but Hamilton's overtake on Verstappen was the most impressive in terms of race craft and execution.

For one thing, Verstappen had nothing to lose in his defence and Hamilton had everything to lose. Secondly, Verstappen is arguably a significantly more difficult driver to overtake and the other three victims.

But most significantly, several times later in the race, we saw multiple drivers attempt to make the same overtake that Hamilton did (outside of 12, then switching to the outside of 13 before trying switching back.

The difference is, everyone else failed to pull it off, because they tried to get it done on the outside of 13 before realising it wasn't possible. Hamilton instead knew when he didn't making it under braking for 12 that wasn't going to happen and eased off around 13 allowing him to cut back and give him momentum on the switch back.

Second choice is Vettel on Bottas because it was ballsy overtake to go between Bottas and Vandoorne with so much at stake.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:59 pm 
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I did enjoy how calculated and flawless the whole Ham on Verstappen manoeuvre was. It was filled with clarity and precision.

Very well articulated BTW, Alienturnedhuman.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Voted Hamilton on Verstappen.

I think that Sainz on Perez, Vettel on Bottas and Verstappen on Kimi were more spectacular and entertaining to watch, but Hamilton's overtake on Verstappen was the most impressive in terms of race craft and execution.

For one thing, Verstappen had nothing to lose in his defence and Hamilton had everything to lose. Secondly, Verstappen is arguably a significantly more difficult driver to overtake and the other three victims.

But most significantly, several times later in the race, we saw multiple drivers attempt to make the same overtake that Hamilton did (outside of 12, then switching to the outside of 13 before trying switching back.

The difference is, everyone else failed to pull it off, because they tried to get it done on the outside of 13 before realising it wasn't possible. Hamilton instead knew when he didn't making it under braking for 12 that wasn't going to happen and eased off around 13 allowing him to cut back and give him momentum on the switch back.

Second choice is Vettel on Bottas because it was ballsy overtake to go between Bottas and Vandoorne with so much at stake.


from a technical stand point I completely agree with you. it was the most precise & flawless pass out of all the ones executed throughout the race. as you noted many tried the same move and failed to do so but in the same regard Hamilton was on fresh softs while versteppen was on older super softs giving Hamilton the ability to attempt such a move where others failed throughout the race with perfect execution by hamilton

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
For me the best move was vettel on bottas at lap 51 needing to get passed to stop the bleeding of the championship.



That pass did not stop Vettel's bleeding. It only lessened it slightly.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Voted Hamilton on Verstappen.

I think that Sainz on Perez, Vettel on Bottas and Verstappen on Kimi were more spectacular and entertaining to watch, but Hamilton's overtake on Verstappen was the most impressive in terms of race craft and execution.

For one thing, Verstappen had nothing to lose in his defence and Hamilton had everything to lose. Secondly, Verstappen is arguably a significantly more difficult driver to overtake and the other three victims.

But most significantly, several times later in the race, we saw multiple drivers attempt to make the same overtake that Hamilton did (outside of 12, then switching to the outside of 13 before trying switching back.

The difference is, everyone else failed to pull it off, because they tried to get it done on the outside of 13 before realising it wasn't possible. Hamilton instead knew when he didn't making it under braking for 12 that wasn't going to happen and eased off around 13 allowing him to cut back and give him momentum on the switch back.

Second choice is Vettel on Bottas because it was ballsy overtake to go between Bottas and Vandoorne with so much at stake.


Perfectly observed!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:22 pm 
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Sainz on Perez

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Voted Hamilton on Verstappen.

I think that Sainz on Perez, Vettel on Bottas and Verstappen on Kimi were more spectacular and entertaining to watch, but Hamilton's overtake on Verstappen was the most impressive in terms of race craft and execution.

For one thing, Verstappen had nothing to lose in his defence and Hamilton had everything to lose. Secondly, Verstappen is arguably a significantly more difficult driver to overtake and the other three victims.

But most significantly, several times later in the race, we saw multiple drivers attempt to make the same overtake that Hamilton did (outside of 12, then switching to the outside of 13 before trying switching back.

The difference is, everyone else failed to pull it off, because they tried to get it done on the outside of 13 before realising it wasn't possible. Hamilton instead knew when he didn't making it under braking for 12 that wasn't going to happen and eased off around 13 allowing him to cut back and give him momentum on the switch back.

Second choice is Vettel on Bottas because it was ballsy overtake to go between Bottas and Vandoorne with so much at stake.


from a technical stand point I completely agree with you. it was the most precise & flawless pass out of all the ones executed throughout the race. as you noted many tried the same move and failed to do so but in the same regard Hamilton was on fresh softs while versteppen was on older super softs giving Hamilton the ability to attempt such a move where others failed throughout the race with perfect execution by hamilton

The Vettel pass on Bottas was when Vettel had tires that were about 20 laps fresher than Bottas's. So in that sense, the two passes were in similar circumstances.

The pass Hamilton made for the lead was straightforward and relatively drama-free. The pass Verstappen made on Kimi was flagged as being over the limit so I won't consider it.

I'm hard pressed to vote against Sainz. First race in a new car and he passes the team's current nemesis in style. I think he has quickly done something to impress his new team and I see a bright future there.

Lot's of good ones to choose from though huh!? And they said these cars couldn't pass! It's really all about the circuits isn't it?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
For me the best move was vettel on bottas at lap 51 needing to get passed to stop the bleeding of the championship.



That pass did not stop Vettel's bleeding. It only lessened it slightly.


big picture wise, correct... "stopped the bleeding" from the extra pit stop which could have caused him to be off the podium

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lot's of good ones to choose from though huh!? And they said these cars couldn't pass! It's really all about the circuits isn't it?


one of the very few races this year where we are actually discussing over takes. its certainly track dependent and the fact that the cars are developed all season long allow us to have such a great race in the later stages of the season.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:45 am 
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j man wrote:
Carlos Sainz for me.

Overall a superb race though. I'm coming to the conclusion that COTA is the best racetrack on the calendar.


It looked that way today didn't it? But there has been years where COTA has seemed somewhat average for overtaking. I mean right off the top of my head I can remember it took help from a backmarker for Hamilton to pass Vettel on track in 2012, Webber could never get past Grosjean in 2013, Hamilton only passed Rosberg in 14' and 15' after errors from the German. In years past it just seems that a slightly faster car struggled to pass at COTA.
But this year it seemed overtaking was more clinical and had a much higher chance of success. I can't figure out why though? Maybe the new tires not falling off quite as much in dirty air?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:27 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:42 am 
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Sainz on Perez no question for me, that was incredible.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Got to be Vettel on Bottas. Contender for overtake of the season

Sainz on Perez for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:01 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


For me a good overtake is where both parties are aware of each other and use their skills to defend and/or defeat the competition. Bottas was lax and defended poorly. The Sainz overtake, given the cars they were sitting in and the manoeuvre was better. However, these overtakes have been bettered elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:34 am 
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Who is this "Versteppen" chap? ;)

The Verstappen penalty (with which I agree) means I will have to view all those overtakes again before I can decide...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:36 am 
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I voted Vettel on Bottas.

In saying that, Bottas should have been much more aggressive. The only reason the best overtake was allowed to take place was because Bottas treated Vettel like a teammate, he should have run him wider on corner exit.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:53 am 
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mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:30 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.
What makes you think Bottas was not defending? He was on the inside for a reason.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:53 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.
What makes you think Bottas was not defending? He was on the inside for a reason.


He has to be somewhere, plus he doesn't move to cover the pass. It requires little skill to drive round someone whilst other cars leave the track to get out of his way.



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:00 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.


Well, if we discard backmarkers then why was Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher in Spa that great? Just a regular pass on the straight after a good corner exit, right?

Back to Austin - Vettel's pass was around the outside between two cars when Bottas could have shut the door on corner exit and, depending on where Vandoorne was, could have ended way way differently than it did. Of course that was a great pass.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:09 am 
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mds wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel on Bottas, there really was no contest. One of the best overtakes I've seen in some time.


This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.


Well, if we discard backmarkers then why was Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher in Spa that great? Just a regular pass on the straight after a good corner exit, right?

Back to Austin - Vettel's pass was around the outside between two cars when Bottas could have shut the door on corner exit and, depending on where Vandoorne was, could have ended way way differently than it did. Of course that was a great pass.


Are you sure you are being objective? Its good but not that good.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:23 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
mds wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:

This, for me.

I actually liken this one to Hakkinen passing Schumacher on the Kemmel straight with Zonta in between. Not entirely the same of course, but the presence of a slower car reminded me on it and for Vettel to go around the outside but in between the two cars... Well, great stuff.
Stoffel went off-track to let them through, though going round the outside was still impressive.


Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.


Well, if we discard backmarkers then why was Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher in Spa that great? Just a regular pass on the straight after a good corner exit, right?

Back to Austin - Vettel's pass was around the outside between two cars when Bottas could have shut the door on corner exit and, depending on where Vandoorne was, could have ended way way differently than it did. Of course that was a great pass.


Are you sure you are being objective? Its good but not that good.


Well, it's not like I'm the only one, right? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:31 am 
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Don't understand if both Vandoorne and Bottas are not defending and Vettel is on fresh compared to Bottas's 'end of life' tyres how is this good, its just a backmarker pass surely.[/quote]

Well, if we discard backmarkers then why was Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher in Spa that great? Just a regular pass on the straight after a good corner exit, right?

Back to Austin - Vettel's pass was around the outside between two cars when Bottas could have shut the door on corner exit and, depending on where Vandoorne was, could have ended way way differently than it did. Of course that was a great pass.[/quote]

Are you sure you are being objective? Its good but not that good.[/quote]

Well, it's not like I'm the only one, right? :)[/quote]

Vettel just took a wider line through the corner and put his foot down. A nothing overtake. Agreed just like passing back markers on fresh tyres.

Watch the video of the overtake a few times and it's nothing special at all. Please somebody explain how it was such a brilliant move? Vettel has completed many better ovetakes than just taking a corner an putting his foot down passing cars with very worn tyres and back markers.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:36 am 
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Easily Vettel on Bottas

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:37 am 
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An illegal pass gets third highest votes. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:37 am 
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Zblogger wrote:
Watch the video of the overtake a few times and it's nothing special at all. Please somebody explain how it was such a brilliant move? Vettel has completed many better ovetakes than just taking a corner an putting his foot down passing cars with very worn tyres and back markers.


Because he went round the outside, into a gap that could have disappeared, but planted it and got it done.

Tell me what was so fantastic about Hakkinen on Schumacher in Spa. Just a straight line overtake, right?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
What makes you think Bottas was not defending? He was on the inside for a reason.


He has to be somewhere, plus he doesn't move to cover the pass. It requires little skill to drive round someone whilst other cars leave the track to get out of his way.

Watch it again. Surely you see Bottas moving left to cover the inside? It is from the beginning of your clip to 4 seconds in... 8O
Edit: I forgot to thank you for that clip. It's certainly good viewing, and I like the comment about my countryman. Both outside drivers had their eyes well into their mirrors. And just as well!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
An illegal pass gets third highest votes. :lol:
Yes, definitely remarkable. Pokerman, we agree on something! Break out the champaigne! :o

I have to say, had he just kept his left wheel on the white lines, it would have warranted the votes. Even though, from what I just saw on Dutch television, the pass on Räikkönen was already his second pass off-track - apparently he also went off passing Bottas. Edit: I have to correct myself; he ran Bottas off the track, and he came back to reclaim his position. Something for the GPDA to discuss with the FIA, I would say.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
What makes you think Bottas was not defending? He was on the inside for a reason.


He has to be somewhere, plus he doesn't move to cover the pass. It requires little skill to drive round someone whilst other cars leave the track to get out of his way.

Watch it again. Surely you see Bottas moving left to cover the inside? It is from the beginning of your clip to 4 seconds in... 8O
Edit: I forgot to thank you for that clip. It's certainly good viewing, and I like the comment about my countryman. Both outside drivers had their eyes well into their mirrors. And just as well!


Its not worth pages of comment, originally the comment was it was "one of the best overtakes for some time." and "Contender for overtake of the season", I just don't think it was that good to warrant hype, even the commentators were not particularly excited.

"Because he went round the outside, into a gap that could have disappeared, but planted it and got it done" I am not doubting SV's bravery but Vandoorne was getting out of the way so the gap was unlikely to close.


Its being put up there with these little gems in my view they are way better:



The part 2 version of this is even better in my view!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
An illegal pass gets third highest votes. :lol:
Yes, definitely remarkable. Pokerman, we agree on something! Break out the champaigne! :o

I have to say, had he just kept his left wheel on the white lines, it would have warranted the votes. Even though, from what I just saw on Dutch television, the pass on Räikkönen was already his second pass off-track - apparently he also went off passing Bottas. Edit: I have to correct myself; he ran Bottas off the track, and he came back to reclaim his position. Something for the GPDA to discuss with the FIA, I would say.

What gets me about Verstappen is when he runs people off the track he then complains if they still keep their position that they went off track to keep their position.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
"Because he went round the outside, into a gap that could have disappeared, but planted it and got it done" I am not doubting SV's bravery but Vandoorne was getting out of the way so the gap was unlikely to close.


Thing with overtaking between two cars is the gap can close from two sides. Even if Vandoorne got out of the way and wouldn't actively close the gap, he was still there, and Bottas could have run Vettel out more which would/could have closed the gap.

It's the presence of another car on the outside that made this a tricky one.

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