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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:50 pm 
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http://www.planetf1.com/news/verstappen ... ough-2020/


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Bottas is probably doing a little jig in his motorhome right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Good on Red Bull, though as we've seen in the past, if a driver really wants out of a contract and another team really wants him, then it will usually happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas is probably doing a little jig in his motorhome right now.

Lol, funny but true. This does make things interesting moving forward doesn't it? We now know where Max will be through the end of this technical era. What we don't know is where Dan will end up. For me, this means Dan is almost certain to leave RBR after next season. Will he go to Ferrari or will he go to Mercedes? That is the question.

My prediction if he goes to Ferrari, is that Mercedes will simply keep Bottas. If he goes to Mercedes, I think Ferrari will still have to replace Kimi. That's the more intriguing scenario and it's hard to predict who would end up getting that seat. I'm sure Alonso would sacrifice his first born but I do get the feeling the door is shut there. Could Sainz be the one to get this chance? What about the young Ferrari protege from F2 Leclerc? Is it possible that they would promote him after a year with Sauber? Much to think about...

I must say though that this is not a good decision on the face of it for Max. He is committing too soon and for too many years. He will have to make a decision going into 2021 without knowledge of which team is actually strong in the new technical era. I don't think this is a wise career move to be honest.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:27 pm 
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We'll have to see how Leclerc goes at Sauber next year. In the past Ferrari hasn't been keen to put second year drivers in a race seat, but the old guard is gone and Sergio seems like he might push for "young and exciting" (if he turns out to be such) to match the coverage Max gets.

A lot will depend on how good the RB is next year and whether or not Ferrari wants to snag Ricciardo before making a value judgement on Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:28 pm 
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The first move in the driver shake up, a little disappointed as I hoped to see Max alongside Hamilton or Vettel in there prime. They'll be 36 and 34 by the time this contract ends.

As good as Ricciardo is, Red Bull don't need him going forward. If Verstappens gradual improvement continues, it's best to put the eggs in the verstappen basket 2019 onwards.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:33 pm 
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I'm going to assume his commitment to Red Bull for another year would come at a cost, both financially (in terms of an increased salary) and in terms of performance-related escape clauses.

Good news for Daniel Ricciardo, though. He could very well be the centre of next year's silly season, potentially having the option to go to Mercedes, Ferrari, stay at Red Bull, or perhaps even look at a move to Renault if they take a big step forward in 2018.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Ricciardo to Ferrari
Ocon to Mercedes

is what I'm expecting in 2019.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:56 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


Seeing how cautious the big teams have become in terms of driver signings it wouldn't surprise me to see Kimi and Bottas starting the 2020 season in the same seats at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


I'm not so sure, unless Ferrari do not value the WCC at all. Vettel and Ricciardo could have won the WCC for Ferrari this year or at least lead it until the recent reliability issues. Not only is Kimi slow, he has 3 none points scores due to collisions something that Daniel avoids and he is quicker of course. In comparison, Bottas and Hamilton have 0.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


Seeing how cautious the big teams have become in terms of driver signings it wouldn't surprise me to see Kimi and Bottas starting the 2020 season in the same seats at all.

I don't see anything "cautious" about keeping Raikkonen. At this point it would better be described as lazy. You have someone who has clearly under-performed for the last 4 seasons and you have the pick of the grid to replace him and yet you do nothing while not winning titles? That's not the way a successful organization does things.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:39 pm 
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lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


I'm not so sure, unless Ferrari do not value the WCC at all. Vettel and Ricciardo could have won the WCC for Ferrari this year or at least lead it until the recent reliability issues. Not only is Kimi slow, he has 3 none points scores due to collisions something that Daniel avoids and he is quicker of course. In comparison, Bottas and Hamilton have 0.


None of those are Kimi's fault though to be fair and 2 include Bottas hitting him. (Strictly speaking Baku he went on but his race was ruined by that Bottas hit).

Although I would replace him at Ferrari, I'd replace Bottas too but while Ferrari hold station with their driving line up then Mercedes will do the same.

Unless RB are battering them by the summer next year then we'll finally get some movement.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Got to wonder how many $$$$ it took to secure Max what with the forthcoming Honda engine and all... that guy was already the hottest property in F1, but a team who are flaky about committing to F1 and are about to lose their engine deal. I bet we're talking upwards of $8-10m a season.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas is probably doing a little jig in his motorhome right now.


Why? This move clearly means that Ricciardo is going to move and most probably to Merc. I say Bottas' days are numbered.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas is probably doing a little jig in his motorhome right now.

Lol, funny but true. This does make things interesting moving forward doesn't it? We now know where Max will be through the end of this technical era. What we don't know is where Dan will end up. For me, this means Dan is almost certain to leave RBR after next season. Will he go to Ferrari or will he go to Mercedes? That is the question.

My prediction if he goes to Ferrari, is that Mercedes will simply keep Bottas. If he goes to Mercedes, I think Ferrari will still have to replace Kimi. That's the more intriguing scenario and it's hard to predict who would end up getting that seat. I'm sure Alonso would sacrifice his first born but I do get the feeling the door is shut there. Could Sainz be the one to get this chance? What about the young Ferrari protege from F2 Leclerc? Is it possible that they would promote him after a year with Sauber? Much to think about...

I must say though that this is not a good decision on the face of it for Max. He is committing too soon and for too many years. He will have to make a decision going into 2021 without knowledge of which team is actually strong in the new technical era. I don't think this is a wise career move to be honest.


Pretty sure Max would have a very favourable get-out clause in the contract. Way I see it, Max holds all the cards in this one. If the car is not good, he'd walk out, and if there's a seat available, they would lay a red carpet for him. Suppose LH retires in 2019 or 2020, you bet they'll be sending Xmas cards to Max and Jos.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm 
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RIC to Mercedes. They need a proven guy, not Ocon yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:23 pm 
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In which case, I hope to see Ricc with Ham for 2019. There's always a chance Bottas impresses and improves but I'm doubtful.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
They need a proven guy, not Ocon ever.

FTFY. I think Ocon has ultimately harmed his chances at Mercedes by being very consistently slightly slower than Checo. The Silver Arrows need someone faster than Bottas, not slower or similar.

Ricciardo is nailed on for the Mercedes drive in 2019. Hamilton will never face Vettel directly so will relish the chance of beating the man who beat Vettel, indirectly proving himself better.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:22 pm 
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What intrigues me is what this means for Red Bull in terms of engine supply post 2018.

You'd imagine Verstappen will have an out in case they do a McLaren from 2019 onwards, but at the same time there must have been some interesting assurances given to Max that would encourage him to commit the next 3 years of his career to Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Well I have to admit I didn't see that one coming, I wonder why Verstappen has basically turned down both Ferrari and Mercedes, a chance to go up against either Vettel or Hamilton?

Bearing in minds there were rumours of $20M at either Ferrari or Mercedes as opposed to $5M at Red Bull, Red Bull must really have opened the coffers with his new contract because why would Verstappen except less?

So were does that place Ricciardo if Verstappen is on that kind of money because I can't see him getting the same, then he starts to look like the #2 driver which performance wise he's under threat of becoming anyway.

I see he gets more money if he goes to either Mercedes or Ferrari plus if he is getting beat he may fancy his chances more against Hamilton or Vettel, in particular Vettel who he beat in 2014.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:12 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
What intrigues me is what this means for Red Bull in terms of engine supply post 2018.

You'd imagine Verstappen will have an out in case they do a McLaren from 2019 onwards, but at the same time there must have been some interesting assurances given to Max that would encourage him to commit the next 3 years of his career to Red Bull.

More dollar for next season for starters.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
RIC to Mercedes. They need a proven guy, not Ocon yet.


Ocon is very over-rated. I am not sure why people think he is the next big thing. He's simply Checo 2.0.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:30 pm 
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I expect Ves to dominate Ric, now RB have chosen their man, anything less than would be a big disappointment for him.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:01 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Got to wonder how many $$$$ it took to secure Max what with the forthcoming Honda engine and all... that guy was already the hottest property in F1, but a team who are flaky about committing to F1 and are about to lose their engine deal. I bet we're talking upwards of $8-10m a season.


Agree, but do RB and MV know something about Honda we don't?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Got to wonder how many $$$$ it took to secure Max what with the forthcoming Honda engine and all... that guy was already the hottest property in F1, but a team who are flaky about committing to F1 and are about to lose their engine deal. I bet we're talking upwards of $8-10m a season.


Agree, but do RB and MV know something about Honda we don't?


Aston Martin has just recruited an F1 engine expert I've heard. I don' think Redbull is looking at Honda as a savior. I think that Aston Martin might be very serious about making their own engine.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Well I have to admit I didn't see that one coming, I wonder why Verstappen has basically turned down both Ferrari and Mercedes, a chance to go up against either Vettel or Hamilton?
<snip>


He spoke to the Dutch press about that..https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ ... 09963.html

Max wrote:
Indeed, Verstappen suggested to Algemeen Dagblad newspaper that he would prefer not to switch to Mercedes and Ferrari.
"Lewis [Hamilton] is firmly in place at Mercedes and Sebastian [Vettel] at Ferrari," he said.
"I do not want to be like the second driver. I'd rather stop than do that.
"I also do not think they want to have me as a teammate, and two 'number 1's is also difficult, which showed before with Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren."

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:30 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Got to wonder how many $$$$ it took to secure Max what with the forthcoming Honda engine and all... that guy was already the hottest property in F1, but a team who are flaky about committing to F1 and are about to lose their engine deal. I bet we're talking upwards of $8-10m a season.


Agree, but do RB and MV know something about Honda we don't?


Aston Martin has just recruited an F1 engine expert I've heard. I don' think Redbull is looking at Honda as a savior. I think that Aston Martin might be very serious about making their own engine.


But that won't happen overnight though will it and what about the hybrid bits?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:06 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Got to wonder how many $$$$ it took to secure Max what with the forthcoming Honda engine and all... that guy was already the hottest property in F1, but a team who are flaky about committing to F1 and are about to lose their engine deal. I bet we're talking upwards of $8-10m a season.


Agree, but do RB and MV know something about Honda we don't?


Aston Martin has just recruited an F1 engine expert I've heard. I don' think Redbull is looking at Honda as a savior. I think that Aston Martin might be very serious about making their own engine.

That can only be for 2021 though.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:09 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I have to admit I didn't see that one coming, I wonder why Verstappen has basically turned down both Ferrari and Mercedes, a chance to go up against either Vettel or Hamilton?
<snip>


He spoke to the Dutch press about that..https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ ... 09963.html

Max wrote:
Indeed, Verstappen suggested to Algemeen Dagblad newspaper that he would prefer not to switch to Mercedes and Ferrari.
"Lewis [Hamilton] is firmly in place at Mercedes and Sebastian [Vettel] at Ferrari," he said.
"I do not want to be like the second driver. I'd rather stop than do that.
"I also do not think they want to have me as a teammate, and two 'number 1's is also difficult, which showed before with Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren."

You certainly can't say he's arrogant then and like I suggested it was his decision.

Also does he not see Ricciardo as a #1 driver then?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I have to admit I didn't see that one coming, I wonder why Verstappen has basically turned down both Ferrari and Mercedes, a chance to go up against either Vettel or Hamilton?
<snip>


He spoke to the Dutch press about that..https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ ... 09963.html

Max wrote:
Indeed, Verstappen suggested to Algemeen Dagblad newspaper that he would prefer not to switch to Mercedes and Ferrari.
"Lewis [Hamilton] is firmly in place at Mercedes and Sebastian [Vettel] at Ferrari," he said.
"I do not want to be like the second driver. I'd rather stop than do that.
"I also do not think they want to have me as a teammate, and two 'number 1's is also difficult, which showed before with Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren."

You certainly can't say he's arrogant then and like I suggested it was his decision.

Also does he not see Ricciardo as a #1 driver then?


What do you mean with the first sentence sorry, you've lost me?.

He's stuck with Dan for another year either way so it doesn't matter what he sees really.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:26 am 
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In some ways, the best aspect of this announcement is that it clearly signals that Red Bull are in it for the long haul. I was starting to get the feeling that they might drop out. Glad that's not the case.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:58 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In some ways, the best aspect of this announcement is that it clearly signals that Red Bull are in it for the long haul. I was starting to get the feeling that they might drop out. Glad that's not the case.


Yeah same. When I read a few months ago they were cutting back the junior programme as well I thought uh-oh but apparently they've just signed up a bunch of young drivers and now this so good to see.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:03 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I have to admit I didn't see that one coming, I wonder why Verstappen has basically turned down both Ferrari and Mercedes, a chance to go up against either Vettel or Hamilton?
<snip>


He spoke to the Dutch press about that..https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ ... 09963.html

Max wrote:
Indeed, Verstappen suggested to Algemeen Dagblad newspaper that he would prefer not to switch to Mercedes and Ferrari.
"Lewis [Hamilton] is firmly in place at Mercedes and Sebastian [Vettel] at Ferrari," he said.
"I do not want to be like the second driver. I'd rather stop than do that.
"I also do not think they want to have me as a teammate, and two 'number 1's is also difficult, which showed before with Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren."

You certainly can't say he's arrogant then and like I suggested it was his decision.

Also does he not see Ricciardo as a #1 driver then?

No, it comes across more like he doesn't want ot work with Hamilton or Vettel. He seems to like being teamed up with Ricciardo as they get along off the track.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:15 am 
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Wow this sound like he is number 1 RBR driver now. Ferrari are obviously biased toward Vettel so may be he did not want to go there. Hamilton will definitely extend his contract in Mercedes. IMO Mercedes do not have number1 or number2 as seen with Rosberg last year and change in Mechanics etc ... and in Hungary this year. So he should have given more thought. I think MV wants number1 status :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:29 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
RIC to Mercedes. They need a proven guy, not Ocon yet.


Agree with this. I suspect it's a done deal for 2019, RBR already know it, hence their desire to lock in Max.

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Max signed because he feels good right now and can see that the team is improving the way they said they would. They let him in on information and what they are working on.

Marko never hid the fact that he likes to build the team around Max. Dieters himself said it that it is something he wishes the most: winning the title with Max. Horners speaks about it now and Max said being number 2 driver is not something he is going for. Ferrari have Seb, Mercedes have Hamilton.

He now has the confidence in the team that they are doing the best they can to give him that car.

In a Dutch interview Olav Mol (the Dutch commentator) talked about maybe a Mercedes again to Red Bull and that Mercedes is not scared of delevering this engine to their competitor.

Could Eddie Jordan be right and is Mercedes' future in F1 a role of engine supplier and not a team anymore, or is the Mercedes engine just another rumor...

One thing for sure is that we saw Max very relaxed a few weeks ago already. He knows what is going on behind the scenes and they let him in on tech stuff when building the car. Max knows a lot about the technical stuff and he said that testing in the windtunnel is fine but the new car need to be brought out sooner so he can feel what needs to be done.

Red Bull want another succes story like with Sebastian. Their best bet is keeping Max at all cost and build the team around him an give him the car. He sells merchandise, he sells tickets and is popular with the younger audience too. He speaks English very well and also German which in F1 is a great language to be able to speak. He is still young and his learning curve is steep and still going. A bargain at the price they signed him for and clearly could be the future F1 star to dominate the field.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:42 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMO Mercedes do not have number1 or number2 as seen with Rosberg last year and change in Mechanics etc ... and in Hungary this year. So he should have given more thought.

I think Rosberg's treatment will be the exception rather than the rule. It was clear that Mercedes valued his loyalty to the team and certainly made moves to give him the best chance of beating Hamilton in a plausibly deniable way.

Bottas hasn't commanded the same respect. He was asked to move aside very early in the season and Mercedes were clearly a bit peeved that Hamilton gave the place back in Hungary.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:55 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Also good news if your name is Esteban Ocon.

Unless Ocon can beat Perez, it won't matter what Max or anyone else does. I don't think Esteban is performing well enough to warrant much attention from the big teams.

In the grand scheme of things, Mercedes are now very likely to keep the current lineup through the end of this technical era. There is harmony within the team and they are about to take both titles comfortably in a season in which they faced a rival who was on their level in terms of performance. They will likely go into Ferrari/Schumacher mode and just keep the current situation intact. There is no compelling reason to rock the boat.

Ferrari are in a different position. They are losing out because of their lineup and will need to do something. Going for Daniel would be a bit of a jolt for Seb I think but regardless, they need to replace Kimi and Daniel is unquestionably the best available option. I must admit though that I still somehow doubt that they'll sign him...


I'm not so sure, unless Ferrari do not value the WCC at all. Vettel and Ricciardo could have won the WCC for Ferrari this year or at least lead it until the recent reliability issues. Not only is Kimi slow, he has 3 none points scores due to collisions something that Daniel avoids and he is quicker of course. In comparison, Bottas and Hamilton have 0.


None of those are Kimi's fault though to be fair and 2 include Bottas hitting him. (Strictly speaking Baku he went on but his race was ruined by that Bottas hit).

Although I would replace him at Ferrari, I'd replace Bottas too but while Ferrari hold station with their driving line up then Mercedes will do the same.

Unless RB are battering them by the summer next year then we'll finally get some movement.

Bottas's hit in Baku wasn't what ruined Kimi's race in Baku. It was the Force India drivers. And anyway, Kimi was the one who attempted to do a risky overtake and the incident won't have happened if he didn't do this. I still think both were equally to blame here. I certainly can't say Spain or Singapore was Kimi's fault though. He certainly is one of the more unlucky drivers this year though.

I don't think Kimi is as good as he used to be, but I don't think he's that bad. I don't know if he would want to but I think he'd do a very decent job at helping a team that currently is struggling such as Williams. But then I actually think that Kimi is only a bit better than Massa personally. But I think Massa is rather under rated at the moment.


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