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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
even a touch helps at this level.

It hasn't been helping Bottas very much this year. Vettel has had a decisive edge in qualifying but, of course, that's nothing to do with his car.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Massa did a very solid lap there. It is just practice, but I still think he is a better option for Williams than Di Resta or Kubica. He would be ahead of Ocon at least in the drivers championship if not for his bad luck.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:07 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
even a touch helps at this level.

It hasn't been helping Bottas very much this year. Vettel has had a decisive edge in qualifying but, of course, that's nothing to do with his car.

Could say the same about Kimi?

Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:08 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Massa did a very solid lap there. It is just practice, but I still think he is a better option for Williams than Di Resta or Kubica. He would be ahead of Ocon at least in the drivers championship if not for his bad luck.

I heard one issue with Massa is the amount of money he is asking for.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:35 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...


Have you seen Bottas's results since Canada in Q?. It aint pretty and he's leaving over half a second in the car far too often. I just can't see that Vettel has been doing the same.

Bottas is self admittedly struggling and all at sea. Using him as the indicator of the cars pace is a bit of a stretch, it's like using Kimi as an indicator of Ferrari's pace on a Saturday.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Have you seen Bottas's results since Canada in Q?. It aint pretty and he's leaving over half a second in the car far too often. I just can't see that Vettel has been doing the same.

Bottas is self admittedly struggling and all at sea. Using him as the indicator of the cars pace is a bit of a stretch, it's like using Kimi as an indicator of Ferrari's pace on a Saturday.

Bottas has been poor when judged against his reputation as a very strong qualifier. I'd be suprised his one lap pace has deserted him given it was his unique selling point. Perhaps he's over-driving the car but that means he's underperforming worse than Kimi and I find that hard to believe.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:08 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Have you seen Bottas's results since Canada in Q?. It aint pretty and he's leaving over half a second in the car far too often. I just can't see that Vettel has been doing the same.

Bottas is self admittedly struggling and all at sea. Using him as the indicator of the cars pace is a bit of a stretch, it's like using Kimi as an indicator of Ferrari's pace on a Saturday.

Bottas has been poor when judged against his reputation as a very strong qualifier. I'd be suprised his one lap pace has deserted him given it was his unique selling point. Perhaps he's over-driving the car but that means he's underperforming worse than Kimi and I find that hard to believe.


No he's just been poor. He's said it himself but he doesn't really need to when it's this obvious and he's being outqualified by over half a second by his team mate in the same car regularly.

That's quite clearly not a driver getting the most out of his car so he can't be the indicator of the cars pace. And I don't believe Kimi is as far away from Seb since Canada but I don't have time just now to do both.

Can+0.718
Azn+0.434
Aut-0.173
Gbr+0.776
Hun-0.177
Bel+0.541
Ita+2.279
Sin+0.684
Mal+0.682
Jpn+0.332

8-2 at 0.424 on average gap is not pretty at all for Bottas (It would be over 6ths including Monza). Lewis has been on it but he can't go faster than the car allows and Bottas is regularly leaving half a second on the table so for him to be Seb's equal means Seb must be doing the same which is what I doubt.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:55 pm 
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anyone know why quali is 2 hrs later then race start? 1 hr i can understand and that happens in other races.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:15 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
anyone know why quali is 2 hrs later then race start? 1 hr i can understand and that happens in other races.


Apparently to coincide with Justin Timberlake concert so crowd aren’t waiting about for long


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:31 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Another interesting comparison:-

Vettel 10 - 4 Bottas
Vettel 11 - 3 Kimi

Is Bottas a worse qualifier than Kimi?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:34 pm 
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sidders wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
anyone know why quali is 2 hrs later then race start? 1 hr i can understand and that happens in other races.


Apparently to coincide with Justin Timberlake concert so crowd aren’t waiting about for long

Which asks the question which is the most important?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:38 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Have you seen Bottas's results since Canada in Q?. It aint pretty and he's leaving over half a second in the car far too often. I just can't see that Vettel has been doing the same.

Bottas is self admittedly struggling and all at sea. Using him as the indicator of the cars pace is a bit of a stretch, it's like using Kimi as an indicator of Ferrari's pace on a Saturday.

Bottas has been poor when judged against his reputation as a very strong qualifier. I'd be suprised his one lap pace has deserted him given it was his unique selling point. Perhaps he's over-driving the car but that means he's underperforming worse than Kimi and I find that hard to believe.

Bottas has definitely dropped off since the summer break. And you can see he's not comfortable. I don't think he's getting anywhere near the best out of his car at the moment


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Another interesting comparison:-

Vettel 10 - 4 Bottas
Vettel 11 - 3 Kimi

Is Bottas a worse qualifier than Kimi?

Well, to be fair a single point of difference doesn't tell us a lot. But Kimi is a pretty variable qualifier. We know he needs to be comfortable in the car but when he is he can often be on it. And by the same token Bottas has clearly been having issues since the summer break


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:29 pm 
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Honda continues to embarrass itself and McLaren with their engine posting the slowest trap speeds.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:29 pm 
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sidders wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
anyone know why quali is 2 hrs later then race start? 1 hr i can understand and that happens in other races.


Apparently to coincide with Justin Timberlake concert so crowd aren’t waiting about for long


well thats great. i am having to endure the terrible Hulk film because of justin bloody trousersnake


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
anyone know why quali is 2 hrs later then race start? 1 hr i can understand and that happens in other races.


Apparently to coincide with Justin Timberlake concert so crowd aren’t waiting about for long

Which asks the question which is the most important?

I'd argue that the people who paid money to see both are the most important as far as the organizers are concerned.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Another interesting comparison:-

Vettel 10 - 4 Bottas
Vettel 11 - 3 Kimi

Is Bottas a worse qualifier than Kimi?


Very interesting indeed. Vettel has dominated both of them but struggles against lewis. Hmmm...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Well, here we go. I'm expecting Ferrari to be mighty here.
Vettel on pole from Kimi.
Merc 3 and 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Well, here we go. I'm expecting Ferrari to be mighty here.
Vettel on pole from Kimi.
Merc 3 and 4.


Deja-vu pick for me......

1 Ham
2 Vet
3 Bot
4 Rai


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Mercedes are in a title fight and don't have the luxury of trying to make sure a car that is known as a bit of a pre-madonna suit both drivers. That is going to skew the results between Hamilton and bottas, which over time will also knock his confidence.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:13 pm 
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I can't see past a Mercedes front row unless Vettel pulls a blinder.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:13 pm 
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8O - Lance poking along in the racing line gives RoGro a surprise.......


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:14 pm 
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KMag again the stewards need to start sorting him out.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:14 pm 
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MAG proves once again what a feckless fool he is. Why he has a seat in F1 is inexplicable.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:25 pm 
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He didn't get through but that was a mighty performance by Ericsson. Just a few thousandths away

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:34 pm 
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OOOK then Merc front row barring a big error.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Invade wrote:
OOOK then Merc front row barring a big error.


Indeed, how fast will hamilton go???

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:38 pm 
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The awesome power of the Mercedes engine again makes its presence felt.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:40 pm 
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I can't see any reason why Merc would go out for a 2nd Q2 run

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:42 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I can't see any reason why Merc would go out for a 2nd Q2 run

I suppose they aren't going to use another set of Ultrasofts in the race. Might as well "raise cancer awareness".

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Alonso 0.5 or 0.6 quicker than Vandoorne!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Well done Alonso. Nice job dragging that heap of a lump into Q3.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Alonso 0.5 or 0.6 quicker than Vandoorne!



Alonso has aero upgrades according to zak brown interview via pit wall.

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Last edited by Mayhem on Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Hulkenberg must be getting Palmer's old parts this weekend

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Kimi 0.26 faster than Vettle at close of Q2 only 0.4 behind Hamilton and 0.09 behind Bottas........ :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Alonso 0.5 or 0.6 quicker than Vandoorne!



Alonso has aero upgrades according to zak brown interview via pit wall.


Well, they seem to work, then .... ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Alonso 0.5 or 0.6 quicker than Vandoorne!


Alonso has aero upgrades according to zak brown interview via pit wall.


Well, they seem to work, then .... ;)


Without a doubt 8O

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Hamilton has been on it since the summer break. The Mercedes is amazing in clean air.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:57 pm 
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It's impossible to win the WDC with a car that is so inferior in qualifying.


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