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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
He's himself said that.

Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".


Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.


He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.


Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.


Nico's gap was respectable(Tenth and a half I think), this is a bit better than that. It's a small advantage yeah but it just highlights how close it is.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

I know these figures don't include 2015.


Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".


Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.


He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.


So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First of all although qualifying was reasonable close Alonso did not match Hamilton and let's not forget that Hamilton was a rookie.

He competed against Hamilton for 3 years and Alonso for 2 years yet you feel you are better qualified than Button to judge.

And we're back to the question why it's important to you that others shouldn't be allowed a different opinion?

What is it about my post that threatens you? The fact that I believe Alonso to be somewhat underrated in qualifying? Is this really such a big deal? If so, why?

Oh, and Alonso did match Hamilton in qualifying. The final result was 9-8, so they were pretty equal

A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.

It's actually not something you have to agree with. It's been statistically modeled.

No, it is something that I can happily disagree with, because it's not fact


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.


I think generally they do. Obviously not all but usually...

The obviously not all part is quite key...

We know drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc are a class apart. And when they started, they had testing, which meant they could hone their pace in the car before they got to a race. It's racecraft which generally develops over time for drivers like these, not one-lap speed. Rumour has it that one of the reasons that Lauda retired originally was that Piquet was immediately as quick, if not quicker, than him. And Piquet in turn was overshadowed by Schumacher, who outqualified him in his first race for Benetton. Senna, too, hit the ground running and was much, much faster than his team mate. If we are saying Hamilton is different to these guys, then aren't we also saying he's not as talented? I'd say the opposite is more likely to be the case


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.


Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.


Nico's gap was respectable(Tenth and a half I think), this is a bit better than that. It's a small advantage yeah but it just highlights how close it is.

Like I said it's respectable, once it gets above a tenth then a driver is starting to get a bit dominant which we would have seen a bit more last year if Hamilton had not had all the grid penalties.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

I know these figures don't include 2015.


Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.


He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.


So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.


Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.


Nico's gap was respectable(Tenth and a half I think), this is a bit better than that. It's a small advantage yeah but it just highlights how close it is.

Like I said it's respectable, once it gets above a tenth then a driver is starting to get a bit dominant which we would have seen a bit more last year if Hamilton had not had all the grid penalties.


There's nothing dominant about a tenth and a half. That was the avg after 4 seasons and it broke down 42-36 in raw numbers. It was the one area Lewis wasn't dominant over Nico in. He was quicker of course but nothing like dominant.

When you're talking about less than a couple of tenths it can break down as above. Dominance is the type of scores we see when a driver has a quarter of a second or more over a rival like with Button and Bottas.

And under a tenth is next to nothing, that's a battle that will always be close as they aren't robots and we don't have identical static conditions for every run.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
And we're back to the question why it's important to you that others shouldn't be allowed a different opinion?

What is it about my post that threatens you? The fact that I believe Alonso to be somewhat underrated in qualifying? Is this really such a big deal? If so, why?

Oh, and Alonso did match Hamilton in qualifying. The final result was 9-8, so they were pretty equal

A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.


Nico's gap was respectable(Tenth and a half I think), this is a bit better than that. It's a small advantage yeah but it just highlights how close it is.

Like I said it's respectable, once it gets above a tenth then a driver is starting to get a bit dominant which we would have seen a bit more last year if Hamilton had not had all the grid penalties.


There's nothing dominant about a tenth and a half. That was the avg after 4 seasons and it broke down 42-36 in raw numbers. It was the one area Lewis wasn't dominant over Nico in. He was quicker of course but nothing like dominant.

When you're talking about less than a couple of tenths it can break down as above. Dominance is the type of scores we see when a driver has a quarter of a second or more over a rival like with Button and Bottas.

And under a tenth is next to nothing, that's a battle that will always be close as they aren't robots and we don't have identical static conditions for every run.

My 4 year average is 0.06s and 32-25 to Hamilton, Rosberg beating Hamilton in 2014 basically taking the figure below 1 tenth, Hamilton was better but not dominant, so basically quite similar to Alonso, better but not dominant.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

I know these figures don't include 2015.


Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.


He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.


So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?


No idea what that's got to do with it.

You pointed to what Alonso said about qualifying as an answer to mikeys question. I asked about what he said about the race in the same quote.

It seemed you were taking as gospel his opinion on his qualifying but throwing out his opinion on the race basically.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:00 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

I know these figures don't include 2015.


Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.


Nico's gap was respectable(Tenth and a half I think), this is a bit better than that. It's a small advantage yeah but it just highlights how close it is.

Like I said it's respectable, once it gets above a tenth then a driver is starting to get a bit dominant which we would have seen a bit more last year if Hamilton had not had all the grid penalties.


There's nothing dominant about a tenth and a half. That was the avg after 4 seasons and it broke down 42-36 in raw numbers. It was the one area Lewis wasn't dominant over Nico in. He was quicker of course but nothing like dominant.

When you're talking about less than a couple of tenths it can break down as above. Dominance is the type of scores we see when a driver has a quarter of a second or more over a rival like with Button and Bottas.

And under a tenth is next to nothing, that's a battle that will always be close as they aren't robots and we don't have identical static conditions for every run.

My 4 year average is 0.06s and 32-25 to Hamilton, Rosberg beating Hamilton in 2014 basically taking the figure below 1 tenth, Hamilton was better but not dominant, so basically quite similar to Alonso, better but not dominant.


Figures may differ but not important, I don't have the alternative at hand but the description sounds about right to me anyway.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:04 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.


So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?


No idea what that's got to do with it.

You pointed to what Alonso said about qualifying as an answer to mikeys question. I asked about what he said about the race in the same quote.

It seemed you were taking as gospel his opinion on his qualifying but throwing out his opinion on the race basically.

I think there has to be some commonsense applied here, being an inferior qualifier doesn't mean you get out qualified everytime and that's not Alonso would have meant either.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I know these figures don't include 2015.


Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No, no one is.

Even the fastest qualifier sometimes gets out qualified, we saw Vandoorne beat Alonso not long ago in qualifying and the race.


So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?


No idea what that's got to do with it.

You pointed to what Alonso said about qualifying as an answer to mikeys question. I asked about what he said about the race in the same quote.

It seemed you were taking as gospel his opinion on his qualifying but throwing out his opinion on the race basically.

I think there has to be some commonsense applied here, being an inferior qualifier doesn't mean you get out qualified everytime and that's not Alonso would have meant either.


I have no idea what you are talking about. What is it you think I'm saying?.

To be clear I'm saying you were taking what he said about qualifying (I might not be the fastest) and using it as a reason not to think of him as an A1 qualifier. Which suggests you put weight into what he said and hold what he says as true.

I asked about the second part of the quote (No-ones better on race day) because I suspect you don't hold that as true or put any weight to it. Sort of picking the bits you like and dismissing the bits you don't kind of thing which you were talking about earlier on that page with another poster.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:29 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Yes I included Austria but both drivers had 2 or 3 attempts to set a time both in Q1 and Q2, Button went less than a tenth quicker in Q2 than he did in Q1 and was marginally quicker than Alonso in Q1, Alonso was the slowest of the drivers that qualified from Q1 so it wasn't like he could afford to leave anything left on the table.

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Last edited by pokerman on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:36 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
So we're believing and using as an answer to determine his qualifying performance the non-definitive part (I might..) but discounting the definitive part (No-one is better..)?.

If we're using his word to determine things then why believe the one he's not even sure of himself?.

Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?


No idea what that's got to do with it.

You pointed to what Alonso said about qualifying as an answer to mikeys question. I asked about what he said about the race in the same quote.

It seemed you were taking as gospel his opinion on his qualifying but throwing out his opinion on the race basically.

I think there has to be some commonsense applied here, being an inferior qualifier doesn't mean you get out qualified everytime and that's not Alonso would have meant either.


I have no idea what you are talking about. What is it you think I'm saying?.

To be clear I'm saying you were taking what he said about qualifying (I might not be the fastest) and using it as a reason not to think of him as an A1 qualifier. Which suggests you put weight into what he said and hold what he says as true.

I asked about the second part of the quote (No-ones better on race day) because I suspect you don't hold that as true or put any weight to it. Sort of picking the bits you like and dismissing the bits you don't kind of thing which you were talking about earlier on that page with another poster.

You rationalise Alonso meaning that he would always get beat in qualifying by a certain teammate but would always beat his teammate in the race, that's dealing in ultimates that rarely happen, you actually think that Alonso actually meant that, he's been out raced in the past by teammates.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Yes I included Austria but both drivers had 2 or 3 attempts to set a time both in Q1 and Q2, Button went less than a tenth quicker in Q2 and was marginally quicker than Alonso in Q1, Alonso was the slowest of the drivers that qualified from Q1 so it wasn't like he could afford to leave anything left on the table.


He still had his last run ruined by the yellow JB brought out, much like Button did in Hungary who also had other runs and was slower. If you discount one, they both should go.

And 2015 being given to Button in qualifying?.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Barrichello use to beat Schumacher fair and square now and again, what kind of statement are you trying to make, that we definitely can't say that Schumacher was better than Barrichello?


No idea what that's got to do with it.

You pointed to what Alonso said about qualifying as an answer to mikeys question. I asked about what he said about the race in the same quote.

It seemed you were taking as gospel his opinion on his qualifying but throwing out his opinion on the race basically.

I think there has to be some commonsense applied here, being an inferior qualifier doesn't mean you get out qualified everytime and that's not Alonso would have meant either.


I have no idea what you are talking about. What is it you think I'm saying?.

To be clear I'm saying you were taking what he said about qualifying (I might not be the fastest) and using it as a reason not to think of him as an A1 qualifier. Which suggests you put weight into what he said and hold what he says as true.

I asked about the second part of the quote (No-ones better on race day) because I suspect you don't hold that as true or put any weight to it. Sort of picking the bits you like and dismissing the bits you don't kind of thing which you were talking about earlier on that page with another poster.

You rationalise Alonso meaning that he would always get beat in qualifying by a certain teammate but would always beat his teammate in the race, that's dealing in ultimates that rarely happen, you actually think that Alonso actually meant that, he's been out raced in the past by teammates.


:?:

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:53 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Hard to get 33 results without including it.(22-11). What made you say that?.

(What I will say is the 29-11 score for Lewis/JB includes all results whereas the JB/Alonso one doesn't as I didn't know what ones to exclude from it, the figure is just the raw figure, the Alo/JB raw result is 25-13).

I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I was looking more so at the average, I don't understand how these figures are compiled, I have it 15-9 for Alonso factoring out all the car problems, I could only use 10 sessions from 2015.

With Hamilton and Button for the first 2 years I have 26-7.


Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:43 am 
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Posts: 26453
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Without knowing which ones you've discounted I can't say much but here's what I had. I had 12 trouble free sessions in 2015 with it breaking 7-5 to Alonso.

Discounted-Aus,Bah,Mon,Can,Mex,Bra,AD

2016 was 15-3

Discounted-Bah,Bel,Mal


So I've got 22-8 overall discounting issues. Austria and Hungary yellow flag situations cancelled each out so I just left them in. What 7 have you taken off Alonso and what extra one did you give JB?.

I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:45 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.

I don't believe you actually keep records?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.

I don't believe you actually keep records?

I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Posts: 723
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.



Same old same old..
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.
And if you didn't read what he actually said, he was talking about Hamilton peaks and unbelievable laps. We have heard the same from Lauda, Lowe, Rosberg.
It seems to me that you are only interested in winning arguments completely ignoring facts(not opinions or some kind of "if", "shoulda", woulda") and only coming back when the debate is favorable to the agenda you are trying to push.

Best means better than others. So it can only be one. You think Alonso is the best in qualifying? It is your opinion, not supported by facts or by those who have worked with both(or the guy himself).

Hamilton will not lose any sleep if you think there are better drivers than him.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.

I don't believe you actually keep records?

I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?

Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Quote from Pullrod - The new IOS wont let me type quotation marks that work with the forum.
Quote:
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.

Do you also agree that Alonso is the more rounded driver and that Hamilton liked McLaren being ‘his’ team and didn’t like that changing when Button joined? Because Button says these things too but I’m going to guess he didn’t know what he was talking about so much when he said those things?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.



Same old same old..
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.
And if you didn't read what he actually said, he was talking about Hamilton peaks and unbelievable laps. We have heard the same from Lauda, Lowe, Rosberg.
It seems to me that you are only interested in winning arguments completely ignoring facts(not opinions or some kind of "if", "shoulda", woulda") and only coming back when the debate is favorable to the agenda you are trying to push.

Best means better than others. So it can only be one. You think Alonso is the best in qualifying? It is your opinion, not supported by facts or by those who have worked with both(or the guy himself).

Hamilton will not lose any sleep if you think there are better drivers than him.

I put forward my opinion. It's people like you and pokerman who are interested in "winning arguments" since it seems you are incapable of allowing others to hold different opinions. I'm not challenging anyone else's views, but putting forward my own. So it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of things that you yourself are doing.

The facts do support Alonso being a tremendous qualifier. The facts also support Hamilton being a tremendous qualifier. There are no facts as yet presented which support the idea that Hamilton is definitely better than Alonso in that regard (or vice-versa, I might add). Anything further we do have is speculation. All I've done is express my doubts that Alonso is any worse than Hamilton in qualifying, but you guys are the ones trying to suppress any opinions different to your own


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.


I think that's a trap I fell into a few years back - until I looked at the stats...

Me too. I think during his Ferrari days I was regularly left with an underwhelming feeling after Q3, as if that last little push escaped him at crunch time. And from there I got this perception that he was a good qualifier, not a great one

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.

I don't believe you actually keep records?

I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?

Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Posts: 723
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Quote from Pullrod - The new IOS wont let me type quotation marks that work with the forum.
Quote:
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.

Do you also agree that Alonso is the more rounded driver and that Hamilton liked McLaren being ‘his’ team and didn’t like that changing when Button joined? Because Button says these things too but I’m going to guess he didn’t know what he was talking about so much when he said those things?


Quote the post where you agree with Button's opinion on Hamilton and I will tell you what I think about his opinion on Alonso.
I don't think Hamilton is perfect and I have many times recognised areas where he lacks compared to others. Don't confuse me with someone else who believes a certain driver is invicible and perfect.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Posts: 723
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
since that wasn't one of my questions, and you know very well it wasn't, then I'd have to say no.

You're doing your usual of avoiding answering questions because you know you don't have an answer to them. Instead you try to deflect. It's a little tedious, I have to say. Why can't you answer?

It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.



Same old same old..
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.
And if you didn't read what he actually said, he was talking about Hamilton peaks and unbelievable laps. We have heard the same from Lauda, Lowe, Rosberg.
It seems to me that you are only interested in winning arguments completely ignoring facts(not opinions or some kind of "if", "shoulda", woulda") and only coming back when the debate is favorable to the agenda you are trying to push.

Best means better than others. So it can only be one. You think Alonso is the best in qualifying? It is your opinion, not supported by facts or by those who have worked with both(or the guy himself).

Hamilton will not lose any sleep if you think there are better drivers than him.

I put forward my opinion. It's people like you and pokerman who are interested in "winning arguments" since it seems you are incapable of allowing others to hold different opinions. I'm not challenging anyone else's views, but putting forward my own. So it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of things that you yourself are doing.

The facts do support Alonso being a tremendous qualifier. The facts also support Hamilton being a tremendous qualifier. There are no facts as yet presented which support the idea that Hamilton is definitely better than Alonso in that regard (or vice-versa, I might add). Anything further we do have is speculation. All I've done is express my doubts that Alonso is any worse than Hamilton in qualifying, but you guys are the ones trying to suppress any opinions different to your own


I don't have that much time nor english proficiency to be this effective and please use that mirror of yours.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Posts: 26453
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.

I don't believe you actually keep records?

I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?

Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23041
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't believe you actually keep records?

I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?

Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).


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