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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:46 pm 
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I feel I need a recap, what negative things about Hamilton have been said?
I'm all for defending Hamilton against some unfair criticism he gets on here from people who he can do no right for but I fail see anything on this thread that Lewis himself would take much issue with?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

I told you already..
You are wasting your time. They will team up and say it is your fault with your persecution complex.


"They" are right. And if you had the common sense to backtrack in the discussion you will see that nothing even remotely offensive towards Hamilton was being said, but pokerman made it as if it was so.

And you're the one to comment, with your posting history towards Alonso.

And the real kicker? I can't even stand Alonso.



Where did I say Button's assessment that Alonso was a better racer than Hamilton is wrong? Please quote me.
And we are the one with a persecution complex.

My first post was on pole stats and their time in McLaren. Not opinions but facts.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Where did I say Button's assessment that Alonso was a better racer than Hamilton is wrong? Please quote me.


Where did I imply you did? Please quote me.

Quote:
And we are the one with a persecution complex.


I didn't say you were. Apparently you're the one with lacking reading comprehension skills though.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:21 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Where did I say Button's assessment that Alonso was a better racer than Hamilton is wrong? Please quote me.


Where did I imply you did? Please quote me.

Quote:
And we are the one with a persecution complex.


I didn't say you were. Apparently you're the one with lacking reading comprehension skills though.


You mention Alonso twice in your post.
Since I lack reading skills and you are smarter, can you explain to me what you were trying to say?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:25 pm 
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No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:46 pm 
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mds wrote:
No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.



Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.

I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:26 pm 
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I think the problem is that people in here want to clutch at straws whenever a comment is made by someone involved in F1. An ex F1 driver makes a comment and people want to behave as though what they say must be used as some sort of proof or evidence. The reality is that it's just a comment and it's a view that Jenson wanted to express for some reason. Beyond that, it doesn't mean anything. The people in this forum are perfectly capable of formulating their own views (although many struggle to understand that others may formulate different ones).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:30 pm 
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So basically Alonso 2014-2016 is the more complete driver than Hamilton 2010-2012 if one is to accept Button's word. BTW that would also make sense to me.

Who do you guys think has been the more complete driver out of them from 2014-2017?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:25 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.


And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.


He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

In Monaco Alonso had 3 flying laps in Q1, Button posted 2 flying laps in Q1, Alonso's car failed at the start of Q2 so I took the Q1 times, I don't make special allowances for drivers basically not trying like you seem to be making for Alonso, they're not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

In Austria Q1 was wet, you've already said they were on option tyres, and Button didn't go through so that's why I didn't use that.

Hungary 2016? Let's sort out 2015.

Japan 2015 I have a note that both his laps were spoilt due to no fault of his own, I have a feeling this is were they sent Button out on the harder tyre, then he went out late on the softest tyres and got baulked in 1 corner by Palmer, they actually replayed it in on his onboard and it put him out of Q1.

I look at the wet USA qualifying and that's a whopping 9 tenths in favour of Alonso then I realise why the big average for Alonso.

Spa 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back of the grid so he just had a slow lap 2 seconds slower than Rosberg and the slowest of any driver, you expect me to include that, are you serious?

Austria 2017 I gave to Bottas.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 am 
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Invade wrote:
So basically Alonso 2014-2016 is the more complete driver than Hamilton 2010-2012 if one is to accept Button's word. BTW that would also make sense to me.

Who do you guys think has been the more complete driver out of them from 2014-2017?

Yeah that's part of what he said and I wouldn't question that, that being 2015-2016.

For the second part that's impossible to know given the poor car at Alonso's disposal, 2015 and 2017 in particular have been a washout, strangely in both seasons out pointed by his teammates..

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.


And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.


He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

In Monaco Alonso had 3 flying laps in Q1, Button posted 2 flying laps in Q1, Alonso's car failed at the start of Q2 so I took the Q1 times, I don't make special allowances for drivers basically not trying like you seem to be making for Alonso, they're not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

In Austria Q1 was wet, you've already said they were on option tyres, and Button didn't go through so that's why I didn't use that.

Hungary 2016? Let's sort out 2015.

Japan 2015 I have a note that both his laps were spoilt due to no fault of his own, I have a feeling this is were they sent Button out on the harder tyre, then he went out late on the softest tyres and got baulked in 1 corner by Palmer, they actually replayed it in on his onboard and it put him out of Q1.

I look at the wet USA qualifying and that's a whopping 9 tenths in favour of Alonso then I realise why the big average for Alonso.

Spa 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back of the grid so he just had a slow lap 2 seconds slower than Rosberg and the slowest of any driver, you expect me to include that, are you serious?

Austria 2017 I gave to Bottas.


So you do make special allowances if they're driving what you deem as the right car?. My special allowance is not including a session a drivers car breaks down. Shocking bias I know. You seem to be under the impression Alonso was knocked out in Q1 and was defeated. He wasn't, he got through and his qualifying session and team mate battle with Button was still very much underway when his car failed. It's hardly controversial to exclude it.

What would Button going through change in Austria?.

That was USA 2016. Japan he put the car in the wrong mode for his first run, they usually get a prompt from the engineer but instead of asking he did it himself and got it wrong. I dunno if that's enough to exclude but I wouldn't argue that hard if someone did.

What big average for Alonso?. Excluding the wet result when working out an average is fine in my book. Excluding the wet result in terms of the h2h score isn't as there's just no good reason to. This has been pointed out a few times now.

No. But if we're excluding sessions because one driver knew they had a penalty then there's got to be an argument for excluding Sochi from Button's score isn't there?. Or did Alonso go too quickly for it to count?.

I wouldn't have given him it. But this highlights why there's so much disparity between averages and h2h score across the internet when it comes to team mate battles. Everyone's got their own systems or feeling towards what's fair to include I guess.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I feel I need a recap, what negative things about Hamilton have been said?
I'm all for defending Hamilton against some unfair criticism he gets on here from people who he can do no right for but I fail see anything on this thread that Lewis himself would take much issue with?

Not negative. But the cheek of him insinuating that come race day he was on par with Hamilton? I honestly only saw that a handful of times where he was genuinely quicker than Hamilton. And his 'evidence' is that he scored more points in 3 years. This was the first time I had ever head of a '3 year championship'. I had never ever heard of this category before the end of 2012 where 2 other teammates were compared this way.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:42 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I feel I need a recap, what negative things about Hamilton have been said?
I'm all for defending Hamilton against some unfair criticism he gets on here from people who he can do no right for but I fail see anything on this thread that Lewis himself would take much issue with?

Not negative. But the cheek of him insinuating that come race day he was on par with Hamilton? I honestly only saw that a handful of times where he was genuinely quicker than Hamilton. And his 'evidence' is that he scored more points in 3 years. This was the first time I had ever head of a '3 year championship'. I had never ever heard of this category before the end of 2012 where 2 other teammates were compared this way.



Of course. What he should have said that "I am a sh1t driver by comparison, but I outscored a 3x WDC over a the three year time when we were teammates driving the same car."
;)

Of course there are no official '3 year championships', but to be fair to Button, he has every right to feel good about his time with Lewis, whether he was Hamilton's equal or not, he legitimately did outscore Lewis over the years that they were teammates, and we are not talking about just one lucky year... three years is longer than many a pair of teammates are together. Neither of them won a WDC and during those years Lewis was 4th ,5th, and 4th in the WDC chase. Button was 5th, 2nd, & 5th (by 2 points behind Lewis). Surely Jenson has a right to feel good about himself, does he not? Especially if Lewis is much of an all-time great as so many proclaim.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:39 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I feel I need a recap, what negative things about Hamilton have been said?
I'm all for defending Hamilton against some unfair criticism he gets on here from people who he can do no right for but I fail see anything on this thread that Lewis himself would take much issue with?

Not negative. But the cheek of him insinuating that come race day he was on par with Hamilton? I honestly only saw that a handful of times where he was genuinely quicker than Hamilton. And his 'evidence' is that he scored more points in 3 years. This was the first time I had ever head of a '3 year championship'. I had never ever heard of this category before the end of 2012 where 2 other teammates were compared this way.


I think it's a bit of a leap to say he is insinuating that TBH.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:21 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

I told you already..
You are wasting your time. They will team up and say it is your fault with your persecution complex.

I'm guessing you're missing the irony of you claiming that others will team up...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:22 am 
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A statistic I frequently see cited in comments on this pairing is "Button outscored Hamilton". Given Hamilton’s 44-14 qualifying advantage, one might be curious as to how he ended up losing out in points. To find out, let's do a deeper analysis of the period where they were teammates with a particular eye on factoring out luck. In this analysis, we will account for all factors that were not the driver’s fault that affected their results. This includes collisions where it was clear that the driver was not at fault - collisions that were more ambiguous (such as racing incidents where no-one was clearly at fault or penalised), are not included to try and remove as much subjectivity as possible. Then, out of curiosity, let's analyze the other collisions (racing incidents/collisions where the driver was at fault) separately, to see who cost themselves more through errors of judgment.

The results of both analyses, as well the original unadjusted stats, are summarised here. Here are the original statistics:
Qualifying: 44-14 Hamilton
Races: 27-20 Hamilton
Points: 672-657 Button

And these are the adjusted statistics:
Qualifying: 44-14 Hamilton
Races: 38-20 Hamilton
Points: 841-725 Hamilton

And here is the estimate of the number points the drivers cost themselves in avoidable collisions:
Points lost in avoidable collisions: 56-0 Hamilton

Our results adjusted for bad luck produce quite a notable difference to the actual results. Interestingly, in the 11 races where a McLaren driver suffered a mechanical failure, Hamilton was running ahead of Button (and likely to finish ahead) 9 times to Button’s 2.

2010 was seemingly a pretty normal season for both drivers, though Hamilton was a bit unluckier, and he also lost himself at least 24 points with collisions, while Button didn’t lose himself any. At the end of the year Hamilton was 16 points behind Vettel in the championship standings, suggesting that his collisions had ultimately cost him. Suffering a tyre blowout while running 2nd on the penultimate lap in Spain (due to wheel rim failure), could perhaps more appropriately be pointed out as something that cost him the championship – two more laps and he would’ve bagged 18 points, enough to overcome his eventual deficit of 16 points.

In 2011, Button had his best ever season, standing on the podium a very impressive 12 times. Meanwhile, Hamilton had what was probably his worst season performance-wise. Hamilton tended to take more life out of the newly-introduced Pirelli tyres than Button, and his season was littered with collisions. While Hamilton won the qualifying battle 13-6 and tied Button 3-3 in wins, he lost out to Button 9-7 in races and 270-227 in points. Interestingly, by the middle of the season (Germany, round 10 of 19) Hamilton was ahead 5-3 in races and 134-109 in points, though Button had suffered 2 retirements to Hamilton’s 1. However, Button then beat Hamilton 6-2 in races and 161-93 in points over the remainder of the season, scoring 8 podiums to Hamilton's 2! Interesting to note that all of this came after Vettel had basically decided the championship.

While 2011 had seen Button have a brilliant season and Hamilton flounder, in 2012 the roles were reversed. Hamilton drove better than ever, while Button spent most of the year struggling. Hamilton out-qualified Button 17-3 in 2012. In the 17 sessions where Hamilton out-qualified Button, he was an average of 0.429s ahead, being over half a second clear in 7 of them. This season would have been the ideal opportunity for Hamilton to balance out 2011, however, Hamilton suffered an extraordinary amount of bad luck in 2012 and thus only ended up ahead 190-188 in points. While Button lost a few points to bad luck as well, it was completely dwarfed by Hamilton’s bad luck. Button also benefited slightly from the number of times Hamilton retired while running ahead of him, promoting him to a higher position. Much like Hamilton in 2011, Button occasionally showed flashes of brilliance, producing great drives in Australia, Spa and Brazil. However, Hamilton’s overall performance advantage over the course of the season was disguised by his extremely bad luck (by my calculations losing a staggering total of 140 points, compared to Button’s net 19 point loss). Interestingly, I recently found an article that attempted to correct the 2012 season for the bad luck of all the top drivers. It calculated a roughly similar point loss for Hamilton and Button to mine (Hamilton losing 152 points, Button losing 9 points) and also calculated that Hamilton would’ve won the 2012 championship by 24 points over Vettel had luck been equal between them."

For the record, even adjusting for luck, Button performs quite respectably relative to Hamilton in the points.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:48 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.



Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:43 am 
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Blake wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I feel I need a recap, what negative things about Hamilton have been said?
I'm all for defending Hamilton against some unfair criticism he gets on here from people who he can do no right for but I fail see anything on this thread that Lewis himself would take much issue with?

Not negative. But the cheek of him insinuating that come race day he was on par with Hamilton? I honestly only saw that a handful of times where he was genuinely quicker than Hamilton. And his 'evidence' is that he scored more points in 3 years. This was the first time I had ever head of a '3 year championship'. I had never ever heard of this category before the end of 2012 where 2 other teammates were compared this way.



Of course. What he should have said that "I am a sh1t driver by comparison, but I outscored a 3x WDC over a the three year time when we were teammates driving the same car."
;)

Of course there are no official '3 year championships', but to be fair to Button, he has every right to feel good about his time with Lewis, whether he was Hamilton's equal or not, he legitimately did outscore Lewis over the years that they were teammates, and we are not talking about just one lucky year... three years is longer than many a pair of teammates are together. Neither of them won a WDC and during those years Lewis was 4th ,5th, and 4th in the WDC chase. Button was 5th, 2nd, & 5th (by 2 points behind Lewis). Surely Jenson has a right to feel good about himself, does he not? Especially if Lewis is much of an all-time great as so many proclaim.

The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:53 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
So basically Alonso 2014-2016 is the more complete driver than Hamilton 2010-2012 if one is to accept Button's word. BTW that would also make sense to me.

Who do you guys think has been the more complete driver out of them from 2014-2017?

Yeah that's part of what he said and I wouldn't question that, that being 2015-2016.

For the second part that's impossible to know given the poor car at Alonso's disposal, 2015 and 2017 in particular have been a washout, strangely in both seasons out pointed by his teammates..

Strangely no different to "losing" to Tarso Marques

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:07 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:35 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.



Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).
I have been to many of forums and you will not find a more Alonso friendly environment than this place outside of Spain or Mexico.


Back on topic,

The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift to Alonso before hammering me. ;)


Last edited by Pullrod on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

It depends. If we're talking about who is the more complete driver overall, then yes setup is something they should master. But I feel that driving performance is more about how they are behind the wheel, and in that case I think if they are clearly having significant issues with the car then it's not always representative.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
... The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift on Alonso before hammering me. ;)
Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that Zoue simply suggested that Alonso may be underrated as a qualifier - I don't recall anything specific about his record allegedly being as impressive as Hamilton's.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

It depends. If we're talking about who is the more complete driver overall, then yes setup is something they should master. But I feel that driving performance is more about how they are behind the wheel, and in that case I think if they are clearly having significant issues with the car then it's not always representative.


I don't disagree, I just don't think its fair to give one side the benefit of the doubt without the other - Hamilton likely had various setup issues through the season too, he just did a less poor job of getting around them. Or to put it another way, if Button had a rubbish teammate then we may have written the 2012 McLaren off as a slow car when really the driver just wasn't getting enough from it - how often has that scenario occurred, we think a car is lacking pace when really they are just lacking the driver who can get the car right? If driving performance is how they are behind the wheel, then surely his inability to drive around issues or reliance on a narrow sweet spot is a strike against his driving skills?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).


Well, then I'm not confused because that "if" condition isn't fulfilled. I haven't said nor implied that you do this on every thread.


Quote:
The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.


This was the original comment:
I can see where he's coming from on that, although generally speaking I think that Alonso is vastly underrated as a qualifier.

This is the "dissertation" that triggered pokerman's HDS (Hamilton Defense System) and kicked off all of this.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

It depends. If we're talking about who is the more complete driver overall, then yes setup is something they should master. But I feel that driving performance is more about how they are behind the wheel, and in that case I think if they are clearly having significant issues with the car then it's not always representative.

When Button was embarrassing himself in Canada and Valencia his team-mate was winning one and putting himself on the front row in the other, and could have been on the podium to boot.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.



Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).
I have been to many of forums and you will not find a more Alonso friendly environment than this place outside of Spain or Mexico.


Back on topic,

The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift on Alonso before hammering me. ;)

I beg to differ. It's more accurate to talk about qualifying head to heads, rather than focus just on poles. In any event, The Hamilton-Alonso pole record was 5-3, still in Hamilton's favour but hardly a whitewash. Head to head in qualifying overall they were 9-8, again a very close score.

There is no doubt Hamilton is an excellent qualifier. But Alonso isn't that far off that any competition between them would be a dead cert


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Posts: 683
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
No, I'm properly done with this. I'll just repeat my advice to backtrack the discussion to see how everything started with pokerman making an innocent statement revolve around Hamilton for the umpteenth time and create the train wreck this thread has become.



Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).
I have been to many of forums and you will not find a more Alonso friendly environment than this place outside of Spain or Mexico.


Back on topic,

The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift on Alonso before hammering me. ;)

I beg to differ. It's more accurate to talk about qualifying head to heads, rather than focus just on poles. In any event, The Hamilton-Alonso pole record was 5-3, still in Hamilton's favour but hardly a whitewash. Head to head in qualifying overall they were 9-8, again a very close score.

There is no doubt Hamilton is an excellent qualifier. But Alonso isn't that far off that any competition between them would be a dead cert


OMG did you really include Hungary "pole" from Alonso????????? It was 6 - 2 not 5 - 3.
And in Monaco It was already evident that Hamilton was simply quicker than Alonso in qualifying.

And I say it again, Button was talking about peaks in qualifying. Not head to head.
Simply put, Button VS Alonso in qualifying stood a chance, but VS Hamilton he was not even trying as he knew the score.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.


He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

In Monaco Alonso had 3 flying laps in Q1, Button posted 2 flying laps in Q1, Alonso's car failed at the start of Q2 so I took the Q1 times, I don't make special allowances for drivers basically not trying like you seem to be making for Alonso, they're not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

In Austria Q1 was wet, you've already said they were on option tyres, and Button didn't go through so that's why I didn't use that.

Hungary 2016? Let's sort out 2015.

Japan 2015 I have a note that both his laps were spoilt due to no fault of his own, I have a feeling this is were they sent Button out on the harder tyre, then he went out late on the softest tyres and got baulked in 1 corner by Palmer, they actually replayed it in on his onboard and it put him out of Q1.

I look at the wet USA qualifying and that's a whopping 9 tenths in favour of Alonso then I realise why the big average for Alonso.

Spa 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back of the grid so he just had a slow lap 2 seconds slower than Rosberg and the slowest of any driver, you expect me to include that, are you serious?

Austria 2017 I gave to Bottas.


So you do make special allowances if they're driving what you deem as the right car?. My special allowance is not including a session a drivers car breaks down. Shocking bias I know. You seem to be under the impression Alonso was knocked out in Q1 and was defeated. He wasn't, he got through and his qualifying session and team mate battle with Button was still very much underway when his car failed. It's hardly controversial to exclude it.

What would Button going through change in Austria?.

That was USA 2016. Japan he put the car in the wrong mode for his first run, they usually get a prompt from the engineer but instead of asking he did it himself and got it wrong. I dunno if that's enough to exclude but I wouldn't argue that hard if someone did.

What big average for Alonso?. Excluding the wet result when working out an average is fine in my book. Excluding the wet result in terms of the h2h score isn't as there's just no good reason to. This has been pointed out a few times now.

No. But if we're excluding sessions because one driver knew they had a penalty then there's got to be an argument for excluding Sochi from Button's score isn't there?. Or did Alonso go too quickly for it to count?.

I wouldn't have given him it. But this highlights why there's so much disparity between averages and h2h score across the internet when it comes to team mate battles. Everyone's got their own systems or feeling towards what's fair to include I guess.

I can't take on board that the McLaren's are cruising through Q1 when they are only getting through by a few tenths, Alonso posted 3 timed laps, there's no way I can view this as him simply not trying, he was lucky to progress.

Sochi was exactly that, Alonso set a competitive time, what if he had out qualified Button then that would have counted so we have a win/win situation for Alonso? Alonso actually set 2 competitive laps, his first lap was quicker than Button's his second lap was slower than Button's lap, he ran a normal qualifying session identical to Button's and nearly qualified through to Q2.

In Austria that was just to say no further comparison could be made between Alonso and Button.

I can take on board what you said about Japan and count that result and I will, but the reality is that will make the smallest of changes in the overall data unlike what can often happen when using wet qualifying data on a track with vast changing grip levels.

I have spoken to other people who have systems and they all place Hamilton above Alonso in qualifying which was always may bone of contention.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.


He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

In Monaco Alonso had 3 flying laps in Q1, Button posted 2 flying laps in Q1, Alonso's car failed at the start of Q2 so I took the Q1 times, I don't make special allowances for drivers basically not trying like you seem to be making for Alonso, they're not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

In Austria Q1 was wet, you've already said they were on option tyres, and Button didn't go through so that's why I didn't use that.

Hungary 2016? Let's sort out 2015.

Japan 2015 I have a note that both his laps were spoilt due to no fault of his own, I have a feeling this is were they sent Button out on the harder tyre, then he went out late on the softest tyres and got baulked in 1 corner by Palmer, they actually replayed it in on his onboard and it put him out of Q1.

I look at the wet USA qualifying and that's a whopping 9 tenths in favour of Alonso then I realise why the big average for Alonso.

Spa 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back of the grid so he just had a slow lap 2 seconds slower than Rosberg and the slowest of any driver, you expect me to include that, are you serious?

Austria 2017 I gave to Bottas.


So you do make special allowances if they're driving what you deem as the right car?. My special allowance is not including a session a drivers car breaks down. Shocking bias I know. You seem to be under the impression Alonso was knocked out in Q1 and was defeated. He wasn't, he got through and his qualifying session and team mate battle with Button was still very much underway when his car failed. It's hardly controversial to exclude it.

What would Button going through change in Austria?.

That was USA 2016. Japan he put the car in the wrong mode for his first run, they usually get a prompt from the engineer but instead of asking he did it himself and got it wrong. I dunno if that's enough to exclude but I wouldn't argue that hard if someone did.

What big average for Alonso?. Excluding the wet result when working out an average is fine in my book. Excluding the wet result in terms of the h2h score isn't as there's just no good reason to. This has been pointed out a few times now.

No. But if we're excluding sessions because one driver knew they had a penalty then there's got to be an argument for excluding Sochi from Button's score isn't there?. Or did Alonso go too quickly for it to count?.

I wouldn't have given him it. But this highlights why there's so much disparity between averages and h2h score across the internet when it comes to team mate battles. Everyone's got their own systems or feeling towards what's fair to include I guess.

I can't take on board that the McLaren's are cruising through Q1 when they are only getting through by a few tenths, Alonso posted 3 timed laps, there's no way I can view this as him simply not trying, he was lucky to progress.

Sochi was exactly that, Alonso set a competitive time, what if he had out qualified Button then that would have counted so we have a win/win situation for Alonso? Alonso actually set 2 competitive laps, his first lap was quicker than Button's his second lap was slower than Button's lap, he ran a normal qualifying session identical to Button's and nearly qualified through to Q2.

In Austria that was just to say no further comparison could be made between Alonso and Button.

I can take on board what you said about Japan and count that result and I will, but the reality is that will make the smallest of changes in the overall data unlike what can often happen when using wet qualifying data on a track with vast changing grip levels.

I have spoken to other people who have systems and they all place Hamilton above Alonso in qualifying which was always may bone of contention.


He progressed to Q2 in Monaco, he wasn't knocked out in Q1 so his Q1 time means literally nothing and the qualifying battle was ongoing when his car failed. It doesn't get any simpler than that for me. Any team mate battle I'd exclude if one car failed.

I couldn't resist bringing up Sochi because you're basically saying he was too fast not to be trying in Sochi but too slow not to be trying in Monaco. It amused me but I included Sochi for JB anyway to be fair. :]

Apart from the comparison in Austria Q1 where they both ran on options and set a time a tenth apart?. What's so unfair about including it?.

Fair enough on Japan but you still don't seem to grasp what I mean by including wet/changeable conditions in the h2h score as long as it was fair for both but excluding it when it comes to working out an average gap between the pair overall as yes it can lead to unrepresentative figures that skew the normal average.

I place Hamilton above Alonso too. My point was the less than a tenth advantage Lewis had over him in 2007 (0.020) looked to have held across their JB comparison 10yrs later based on the last results I saw. The advantage grew but only by half a tenth (0.060) IIRC bringing Lewis's advantage over Alonso to roughly 0.080.

That's what you took offense too, not someone putting Alonso above Lewis to be clear.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:


Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).
I have been to many of forums and you will not find a more Alonso friendly environment than this place outside of Spain or Mexico.


Back on topic,

The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift on Alonso before hammering me. ;)

I beg to differ. It's more accurate to talk about qualifying head to heads, rather than focus just on poles. In any event, The Hamilton-Alonso pole record was 5-3, still in Hamilton's favour but hardly a whitewash. Head to head in qualifying overall they were 9-8, again a very close score.

There is no doubt Hamilton is an excellent qualifier. But Alonso isn't that far off that any competition between them would be a dead cert


OMG did you really include Hungary "pole" from Alonso????????? It was 6 - 2 not 5 - 3.
And in Monaco It was already evident that Hamilton was simply quicker than Alonso in qualifying.

And I say it again, Button was talking about peaks in qualifying. Not head to head.
Simply put, Button VS Alonso in qualifying stood a chance, but VS Hamilton he was not even trying as he knew the score.

well, yes, because we are talking about performance, not points, and Alonso's performance was good enough for pole that day. But again, pole is not the only barometer in qualifying. Throughout their time together, they were extremely close


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Button had setup issues for 5 races in 2012. In the other 15 races Button was better than Hamilton at..

1. Australia, jumped him at the start and controlled the race
2. Spa, Friday rained off and everybody gambles on dry setup in P3 and Hamilton for whatever reason gets the worse setup
3. Part of the Brazilian GP when it was damp he overtook Lewis and pulled a small gap. When it was later full wet, Hamilton overtook him and pulled away a bit. Pretty even overall and when it was damp later in the race again, Lewis was quicker that time.

So even setup issue period aside he was clearly better than Hamilton only 2-3 times in 15 races and even Spa was just qualifying.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:34 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances

Really how many times did Button beat Hamilton on merit in 2010 and 2012?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:46 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Pokerman has to post many times because "they" are the majority and not many Hamilton fans bother to reply anymore.


Most Hamilton fans didn't reply because most saw nothing wrong with a comment with which, surprisingly, nothing was wrong!

Then pokerman started posting because, there it is again, he evidently has this persecution complex and makes everything revolve around Hamilton even when it didn't and even when that comment wasn't detrimental to Hamilton in the slightest.

Again, backtrack and look at the original comment that started it all. And then come tell me again that pokerman is the victim and people are teaming up to get him. :nod:

Quote:
I still fail to understand why you were talking about Alonso and my "history".


I was talking about Alonso because this entire thing started because someone had the "audacity" to say something about Alonso, not Hamilton, which then was spinned as if it was about Hamilton.

Your history with regards to Alonso is one of vitriol, so you alluding to Hamilton being a victim here and people "teaming up" to get Hamilton and his fans is, well, baffling as much as it is ridiculous.

You are a little but confused if you think I jump on every thread just to hammer Alonso(which is not the case).
I have been to many of forums and you will not find a more Alonso friendly environment than this place outside of Spain or Mexico.


Back on topic,

The original comment was a dissertation(a wrong one) from Zoue who said Alonso record in qualifying was equally impressive when facts(not only pole numbers but engineers and drivers )
tell something different.
Button was talking about Hamilton's ability to reach higher peaks than anybody else(like Senna he said).

I repeat, in McLaren:
Hamilton 26 pole positions, his teammates(Alonso, Kovalainen, Button) a Grand total of 4 pole positions. There is no way around this.

We were talking about Hamilton. Wait when we will shift on Alonso before hammering me. ;)

I beg to differ. It's more accurate to talk about qualifying head to heads, rather than focus just on poles. In any event, The Hamilton-Alonso pole record was 5-3, still in Hamilton's favour but hardly a whitewash. Head to head in qualifying overall they were 9-8, again a very close score.

There is no doubt Hamilton is an excellent qualifier. But Alonso isn't that far off that any competition between them would be a dead cert


OMG did you really include Hungary "pole" from Alonso????????? It was 6 - 2 not 5 - 3.
And in Monaco It was already evident that Hamilton was simply quicker than Alonso in qualifying.

And I say it again, Button was talking about peaks in qualifying. Not head to head.
Simply put, Button VS Alonso in qualifying stood a chance, but VS Hamilton he was not even trying as he knew the score.

Yep first run in Hungary qualifying Hamilton was 3 tenths quicker, Alonso went quicker on the second run when his car was much lighter on fuel, the second run that Hamilton was unable to do, Monaco the #2 driver got stitched up basically.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:53 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

In Monaco Alonso had 3 flying laps in Q1, Button posted 2 flying laps in Q1, Alonso's car failed at the start of Q2 so I took the Q1 times, I don't make special allowances for drivers basically not trying like you seem to be making for Alonso, they're not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

In Austria Q1 was wet, you've already said they were on option tyres, and Button didn't go through so that's why I didn't use that.

Hungary 2016? Let's sort out 2015.

Japan 2015 I have a note that both his laps were spoilt due to no fault of his own, I have a feeling this is were they sent Button out on the harder tyre, then he went out late on the softest tyres and got baulked in 1 corner by Palmer, they actually replayed it in on his onboard and it put him out of Q1.

I look at the wet USA qualifying and that's a whopping 9 tenths in favour of Alonso then I realise why the big average for Alonso.

Spa 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back of the grid so he just had a slow lap 2 seconds slower than Rosberg and the slowest of any driver, you expect me to include that, are you serious?

Austria 2017 I gave to Bottas.


So you do make special allowances if they're driving what you deem as the right car?. My special allowance is not including a session a drivers car breaks down. Shocking bias I know. You seem to be under the impression Alonso was knocked out in Q1 and was defeated. He wasn't, he got through and his qualifying session and team mate battle with Button was still very much underway when his car failed. It's hardly controversial to exclude it.

What would Button going through change in Austria?.

That was USA 2016. Japan he put the car in the wrong mode for his first run, they usually get a prompt from the engineer but instead of asking he did it himself and got it wrong. I dunno if that's enough to exclude but I wouldn't argue that hard if someone did.

What big average for Alonso?. Excluding the wet result when working out an average is fine in my book. Excluding the wet result in terms of the h2h score isn't as there's just no good reason to. This has been pointed out a few times now.

No. But if we're excluding sessions because one driver knew they had a penalty then there's got to be an argument for excluding Sochi from Button's score isn't there?. Or did Alonso go too quickly for it to count?.

I wouldn't have given him it. But this highlights why there's so much disparity between averages and h2h score across the internet when it comes to team mate battles. Everyone's got their own systems or feeling towards what's fair to include I guess.

I can't take on board that the McLaren's are cruising through Q1 when they are only getting through by a few tenths, Alonso posted 3 timed laps, there's no way I can view this as him simply not trying, he was lucky to progress.

Sochi was exactly that, Alonso set a competitive time, what if he had out qualified Button then that would have counted so we have a win/win situation for Alonso? Alonso actually set 2 competitive laps, his first lap was quicker than Button's his second lap was slower than Button's lap, he ran a normal qualifying session identical to Button's and nearly qualified through to Q2.

In Austria that was just to say no further comparison could be made between Alonso and Button.

I can take on board what you said about Japan and count that result and I will, but the reality is that will make the smallest of changes in the overall data unlike what can often happen when using wet qualifying data on a track with vast changing grip levels.

I have spoken to other people who have systems and they all place Hamilton above Alonso in qualifying which was always may bone of contention.


He progressed to Q2 in Monaco, he wasn't knocked out in Q1 so his Q1 time means literally nothing and the qualifying battle was ongoing when his car failed. It doesn't get any simpler than that for me. Any team mate battle I'd exclude if one car failed.

I couldn't resist bringing up Sochi because you're basically saying he was too fast not to be trying in Sochi but too slow not to be trying in Monaco. It amused me but I included Sochi for JB anyway to be fair. :]

Apart from the comparison in Austria Q1 where they both ran on options and set a time a tenth apart?. What's so unfair about including it?.

Fair enough on Japan but you still don't seem to grasp what I mean by including wet/changeable conditions in the h2h score as long as it was fair for both but excluding it when it comes to working out an average gap between the pair overall as yes it can lead to unrepresentative figures that skew the normal average.

I place Hamilton above Alonso too. My point was the less than a tenth advantage Lewis had over him in 2007 (0.020) looked to have held across their JB comparison 10yrs later based on the last results I saw. The advantage grew but only by half a tenth (0.060) IIRC bringing Lewis's advantage over Alonso to roughly 0.080.

That's what you took offense too, not someone putting Alonso above Lewis to be clear.

0.08s is definitely in the ball park, so amid all this debate we arrive basically at the same number. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:58 am 
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lamo wrote:
Button had setup issues for 5 races in 2012. In the other 15 races Button was better than Hamilton at..

1. Australia, jumped him at the start and controlled the race
2. Spa, Friday rained off and everybody gambles on dry setup in P3 and Hamilton for whatever reason gets the worse setup
3. Part of the Brazilian GP when it was damp he overtook Lewis and pulled a small gap. When it was later full wet, Hamilton overtook him and pulled away a bit. Pretty even overall and when it was damp later in the race again, Lewis was quicker that time.

So even setup issue period aside he was clearly better than Hamilton only 2-3 times in 15 races and even Spa was just qualifying.

Then go to 2010 Button beat Hamilton in the 2 wet races because he gambled on strategy, and he had the beating of Hamilton in Monza in qualifying and looked he would beat Hamilton in the race even if Hamilton had not damaged his car on the opening lap and I believe that's it?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:44 am 
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Posts: 20916
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for


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