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Which has been Ferrari worst disaster year?
2008 63%  63%  [ 20 ]
2017 38%  38%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 32
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:43 am 
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AnRs wrote:
Wasn't it 2008 that Massa would have won if not Renault fixed a race?


There's no way of knowing what would've happened. I find it comical that people assume he'd have won. Not to mention how rest of the season would've transpired had earlier events changed.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:33 am 
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I think Abu Dhabi 2010 was the biggest screw up of all, partly Ferrari and partly Alonso being stuck behind Petrov and losing the title despite going into the race leading it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:40 am 
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2008. The screw-ups in 2017 have merely taken Vettel out of contention for the WDC, I doubt he would have won it if he'd won Singapore and Malaysia.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:52 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
But he lost far more points than any other driver did due to reliability.


Yes - because he had the fastest car. Duh.

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How often did another driver pass Vettel for the lead in 2010?


What relevance does that have?

Alonso was closing him down on the prime tyres in Bahrain and on the intermediates in Korea. Alonso showed extraordinary pace in the latter in the final few laps.

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the RB7 had a bigger advantage over the F2012.
The RB7 had to contend with another car that was just as fast but was managed badly and was unreliable (the MP4/27). The F2008 did not have to deal with such an opponent.


F2008 had to deal with the BMWs and Alonso's Renault in the 2nd half of the season. But anyway i don't see why you are bringing the MP4 27 into this - it was no where near the title.

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Vettel is not to blame for a puncture in Silverstone? Vettel had one lockup. Drivers lock up all the time and it almost never results in a puncture.
If you're going to blame Vettel for Singapore, then you cannot blame him for Canada either where he was trapped between Bottas diving down his inside and Verstappen on his outside. You can only blame him for one of the accidents (Singapore or Canada), not both.


2 different incidents. Vettel had plenty of room to his left to avoid MV in Canada.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Massa only had to race BMWs/Alonso in 2008 due to the amount of crazy races, never performance of the car. In all the wet races he fell behind BMW - Monaco, Silverstone and Monza.

Other than that it was only crashgate (he would have won that race) and his messy drive in Japan (collision and drive through) and in Canada when he had to make an additional pit stop as the fuel hose failed - that he fell behind Alonso or BMWs.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:55 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Yes - because he had the fastest car. Duh.

He also lost way more points than even his teammate. Not too disimilar to 2016, actually.

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Alonso was closing him down on the prime tyres in Bahrain and on the intermediates in Korea. Alonso showed extraordinary pace in the latter in the final few laps.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Vettel could not have matched Alonso's pace in a perfectly healthy car. In both races, he was faster until his car occurred problems. In 2010 there wasn't even DRS, and since Alonso couldn't even pass Petrov when his title hinged on it, I find it somewhat doubtful that he could have passed Vettel.

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F2008 had to deal with the BMWs and Alonso's Renault in the 2nd half of the season. But anyway i don't see why you are bringing the MP4 27 into this - it was no where near the title.

Terrible argument. The BMW and Renault cars were absolutely nowhere near Ferrari in 2008. McLaren were just as fast as Red Bull in 2012.

If you're gonna bring up BMW and Renault, I might as well bring up Lotus, Mercedes, Williams and Sauber in 2012. All these cars were faster than Red Bull at certain races in 2012.

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Vettel had plenty of room to his left to avoid MV in Canada.

Bottas dived down his inside and Verstappen around his outside, while Hamilton was in front of him. Vettel was trapped in Canada

Vettel has made 2 mistakes this season (Baku and Singapore)
Hamilton made 5 mistakes in 2008 (Bahrain, Monaco, Canada, France & Japan).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:06 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes - because he had the fastest car. Duh.

He also lost way more points than even his teammate. Not too disimilar to 2016, actually.

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Alonso was closing him down on the prime tyres in Bahrain and on the intermediates in Korea. Alonso showed extraordinary pace in the latter in the final few laps.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Vettel could not have matched Alonso's pace in a perfectly healthy car. In both races, he was faster until his car occurred problems. In 2010 there wasn't even DRS, and since Alonso couldn't even pass Petrov when his title hinged on it, I find it somewhat doubtful that he could have passed Vettel.

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F2008 had to deal with the BMWs and Alonso's Renault in the 2nd half of the season. But anyway i don't see why you are bringing the MP4 27 into this - it was no where near the title.

Terrible argument. The BMW and Renault cars were absolutely nowhere near Ferrari in 2008. McLaren were just as fast as Red Bull in 2012.

If you're gonna bring up BMW and Renault, I might as well bring up Lotus, Mercedes, Williams and Sauber in 2012. All these cars were faster than Red Bull at certain races in 2012.

Quote:
Vettel had plenty of room to his left to avoid MV in Canada.

Bottas dived down his inside and Verstappen around his outside, while Hamilton was in front of him. Vettel was trapped in Canada

Vettel has made 2 mistakes this season (Baku and Singapore)
Hamilton made 5 mistakes in 2008 (Bahrain, Monaco, Canada, France & Japan).


:thumbup: Thanks for saving me the time to respond.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:00 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
He also lost way more points than even his teammate. Not too disimilar to 2016, actually.


Sure. Webber had a big opportunity in 2010 but didn't take it.

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There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Vettel could not have matched Alonso's pace in a perfectly healthy car. In both races, he was faster until his car occurred problems. In 2010 there wasn't even DRS, and since Alonso couldn't even pass Petrov when his title hinged on it, I find it somewhat doubtful that he could have passed Vettel.


Alonso was faster on the primes in Bahrain and was 1-2 seconds faster than anyone in the final laps at Korea.

What happened with Petrov is not relevant - completely different track where no one could overtake.

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Terrible argument. The BMW and Renault cars were absolutely nowhere near Ferrari in 2008. McLaren were just as fast as Red Bull in 2012.

If you're gonna bring up BMW and Renault, I might as well bring up Lotus, Mercedes, Williams and Sauber in 2012. All these cars were faster than Red Bull at certain races in 2012.


You can bring all the cars you want (remember there were also 7 different winners in 2008). The Red Bull had a bigger advantage over the F2012 as compared to the F2008's advantage over the Mclaren.


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Bottas dived down his inside and Verstappen around his outside, while Hamilton was in front of him. Vettel was trapped in Canada

Vettel has made 2 mistakes this season (Baku and Singapore)
Hamilton made 5 mistakes in 2008 (Bahrain, Monaco, Canada, France & Japan).


As i said - there was plenty of room on Vettel's left. Bottas was up on the kerbs and left plenty of room.

Why are you comparing Vettel's mistakes in 2017 to Hamilton's mistakes in 2008?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:02 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Massa only had to race BMWs/Alonso in 2008 due to the amount of crazy races, never performance of the car. In all the wet races he fell behind BMW - Monaco, Silverstone and Monza.

Other than that it was only crashgate (he would have won that race) and his messy drive in Japan (collision and drive through) and in Canada when he had to make an additional pit stop as the fuel hose failed - that he fell behind Alonso or BMWs.


crashgate didn't cause the botched Ferrari pitstop at Singapore.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 am 
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Nothing to do with the performance of the car. Massa wasn't fighting BMW's and Alonso, it would be like saying Hamiton has been fighting the Red Bulls this year. It's happened 2 or 3 times.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:24 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso was faster on the primes in Bahrain and was 1-2 seconds faster than anyone in the final laps at Korea.

Alonso was at best marginally quicker than Vettel on primes in Bahrain, and that's assuming that Vettel's problem did not occur slowly (like many mechanical problems do).

Webber could not overtake Schumacher in the first stint, and he likely had a ~1.0 second advantage. Hamilton could not pass Rosberg and he had a 0.5 second advantage once he cleared Nico in the pits. The 2010 Bahrain layout was awful for following cars. No chance Alonso gets passed Vettel.

As for Korea - prior to his engine problem, Vettel was also 1 second/lap faster than just about the rest of the field. Again, there's really nothing to suggest that Alonso could have passed him. Vettel had him covered easily before his car failed.

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You can bring all the cars you want (remember there were also 7 different winners in 2008). The Red Bull had a bigger advantage over the F2012 as compared to the F2008's advantage over the Mclaren.

Again, you are ignoring the important fact that in 2012 Red Bull was competing against another car that was just as fast. That was something the 2008 Ferrari did not have to deal with.

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As i said - there was plenty of room on Vettel's left. Bottas was up on the kerbs and left plenty of room.

Why are you comparing Vettel's mistakes in 2017 to Hamilton's mistakes in 2008?

You are pretty much the only one on this forum who blames Vettel for Canada.

You were the one who initially brought up Vettel's mistakes in 2017 as some kind of argument to why Hamilton would have "won the WDC with several races to spare".

I pointed out that this was wrong for several reasons:

1. Hamilton made even more mistakes in 2008.
2. An inferior driver like Massa was not only able to take the WDC fight to the final race of the season, but nearly win it as well.

Then again, if Vettel was driving the F2008, the pace advantage he would have over Hamilton in dry conditions would be so clear that you'd probably declare the F2008 a dominant car anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:46 am 
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I'd say 2008 was the bigger screw up. Ferrari have actually made very few errors this year; they've just been spectacular and have come at a particularly sensitive time (when Ferrari had had its best chance for wins). 2008 was a comedy of errors by both main players. I think today's Vettel or Hamilton would have won the 2008 title comfortably in either car. This year Ferrari needed to be perfect to stand any chance of being competitive, so even rare errors have a much bigger impact


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Alonso was at best marginally quicker than Vettel on primes in Bahrain, and that's assuming that Vettel's problem did not occur slowly (like many mechanical problems do).

Webber could not overtake Schumacher in the first stint, and he likely had a ~1.0 second advantage. Hamilton could not pass Rosberg and he had a 0.5 second advantage once he cleared Nico in the pits. The 2010 Bahrain layout was awful for following cars. No chance Alonso gets passed Vettel.

As for Korea - prior to his engine problem, Vettel was also 1 second/lap faster than just about the rest of the field. Again, there's really nothing to suggest that Alonso could have passed him. Vettel had him covered easily before his car failed.


Alonso had a top speed advantage in Bahrain though. Still presumptuous to say that was a a guaranteed win for Vettel. It's not like he was 10 seconds ahead of Alonso.

As for Korea - we would have to see how well Vettel looked after his inters. Again - it is very presumptuous to assume that win was in the bag.

Quote:
Again, you are ignoring the important fact that in 2012 Red Bull was competing against another car that was just as fast. That was something the 2008 Ferrari did not have to deal with.


Ferrari was also competing with that same car in 2012. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant. Red Bull still had a significant advantage over Ferrari yet Vettel only wrapped up the title in the final race.

2008 - there were 7 different winners (5 different cars) and there were 3 championship contenders going into the penultimate race. You are trying to make it sound like it was a 2 horse race.


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You are pretty much the only one on this forum who blames Vettel for Canada.


We're all allowed our own opinions. Perhaps you would like to address the actual points i made.

Do you not agree that Vettel had significant room to his left?

Image

Looks like there is plenty of room there. An easily avoidable collision.

Quote:
You were the one who initially brought up Vettel's mistakes in 2017 as some kind of argument to why Hamilton would have "won the WDC with several races to spare".


I think you were the one who was initially claiming that Vettel would win 2008 with a few races to spare had he been driving the Ferrari that year.

Yet Vettel lost the 2009 title with 1 race to spare when he had an equal car to the Brawn.

He is already well behind Hamilton this year despite having an equal car (Vettel/Marchionne even think their car might be better than the Mercedes).

He nearly threw away 2010 and 2012 despite having the best car.

Quote:
I pointed out that this was wrong for several reasons:

1. Hamilton made even more mistakes in 2008.
2. An inferior driver like Massa was not only able to take the WDC fight to the final race of the season, but nearly win it as well.

Then again, if Vettel was driving the F2008, the pace advantage he would have over Hamilton in dry conditions would be so clear that you'd probably declare the F2008 a dominant car anyway.


Who's to say Vettel wouldn't make a significant amount of mistakes?

Driver performance isn't static. Would you, for example, claim that Vettel would win the 2003 championship easily based on the fact that an inferior driver like Kimi took it down to the last race?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:31 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Alonso was at best marginally quicker than Vettel on primes in Bahrain, and that's assuming that Vettel's problem did not occur slowly (like many mechanical problems do).

Webber could not overtake Schumacher in the first stint, and he likely had a ~1.0 second advantage. Hamilton could not pass Rosberg and he had a 0.5 second advantage once he cleared Nico in the pits. The 2010 Bahrain layout was awful for following cars. No chance Alonso gets passed Vettel.

As for Korea - prior to his engine problem, Vettel was also 1 second/lap faster than just about the rest of the field. Again, there's really nothing to suggest that Alonso could have passed him. Vettel had him covered easily before his car failed.


Alonso had a top speed advantage in Bahrain though. Still presumptuous to say that was a a guaranteed win for Vettel. It's not like he was 10 seconds ahead of Alonso.

As for Korea - we would have to see how well Vettel looked after his inters. Again - it is very presumptuous to assume that win was in the bag.

Quote:
Again, you are ignoring the important fact that in 2012 Red Bull was competing against another car that was just as fast. That was something the 2008 Ferrari did not have to deal with.


Ferrari was also competing with that same car in 2012. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant. Red Bull still had a significant advantage over Ferrari yet Vettel only wrapped up the title in the final race.

2008 - there were 7 different winners (5 different cars) and there were 3 championship contenders going into the penultimate race. You are trying to make it sound like it was a 2 horse race.


Quote:
You are pretty much the only one on this forum who blames Vettel for Canada.


We're all allowed our own opinions. Perhaps you would like to address the actual points i made.

Do you not agree that Vettel had significant room to his left?

Image

Looks like there is plenty of room there. An easily avoidable collision.

Quote:
You were the one who initially brought up Vettel's mistakes in 2017 as some kind of argument to why Hamilton would have "won the WDC with several races to spare".


I think you were the one who was initially claiming that Vettel would win 2008 with a few races to spare had he been driving the Ferrari that year.

Yet Vettel lost the 2009 title with 1 race to spare when he had an equal car to the Brawn.

He is already well behind Hamilton this year despite having an equal car (Vettel/Marchionne even think their car might be better than the Mercedes).

He nearly threw away 2010 and 2012 despite having the best car.

Quote:
I pointed out that this was wrong for several reasons:

1. Hamilton made even more mistakes in 2008.
2. An inferior driver like Massa was not only able to take the WDC fight to the final race of the season, but nearly win it as well.

Then again, if Vettel was driving the F2008, the pace advantage he would have over Hamilton in dry conditions would be so clear that you'd probably declare the F2008 a dominant car anyway.


Who's to say Vettel wouldn't make a significant amount of mistakes?

Driver performance isn't static. Would you, for example, claim that Vettel would win the 2003 championship easily based on the fact that an inferior driver like Kimi took it down to the last race?


So you would agree its possible Vettel would have improved somewhat since 09/10


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:51 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso had a top speed advantage in Bahrain though. Still presumptuous to say that was a a guaranteed win for Vettel. It's not like he was 10 seconds ahead of Alonso.

As for Korea - we would have to see how well Vettel looked after his inters. Again - it is very presumptuous to assume that win was in the bag.

Hamilton had an F-duct advantage and still couldn't pass Rosberg in Bahrain. There's of course no absolute guarantee that Vettel would have won these races, but given how very rare it was in 2010 for a healthy Red Bull in the lead to be overtaken, in all likelihood Vettel would have won those races.

The point still stands. Vettel lost significantly more points than everyone else in the top 5 that season.

Quote:
Ferrari was also competing with that same car in 2012. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant. Red Bull still had a significant advantage over Ferrari yet Vettel only wrapped up the title in the final race.

Ferrari held a good advantage over McLaren in 2008 (we can tell this with hindsight based on how Massa and Kimi compared to Alonso, relative to Hamilton). Hamilton made way more mistakes in 2008 than Alonso did in 2012, which would have made winning the 2008 WDC much easier.

Quote:
I think you were the one who was initially claiming that Vettel would win 2008 with a few races to spare had he been driving the Ferrari that year.

I said prime Vettel. Vettel at his best lead the WDC by 40 points midway the 2013 season despite only having a car slightly better than Lotus/Ferrari/Mercedes.

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Yet Vettel lost the 2009 title with 1 race to spare when he had an equal car to the Brawn.

But with worse reliability. Vettel had two mechanical DNF and Button had none. Also, 2009 Vettel is not prime Vettel.

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He is already well behind Hamilton this year despite having an equal car (Vettel/Marchionne even think their car might be better than the Mercedes).

Once again Vettel's horrible reliability in the past few races is ignored, and Mercedes' speed advantage in qualifying (which makes Hamilton's job much easier) is ignored.

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He nearly threw away 2010 and 2012 despite having the best car.

Hamilton actually threw away 2016 despite having a dominant car. See how easy it is to ignore reliability?

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Who's to say Vettel wouldn't make a significant amount of mistakes?

I never said he wouldn't? I said that Hamilton made a lot of mistakes and was driving a car that was usually slower in dry weather. Vettel is far superior than either Massa or Kimi in the wet, and a faster driver overall.

I claim that even if Vettel made a significant amount of mistakes, he would still have won the WDC with the F2008. He is significantly faster and more talented than either Massa or Kimi.

Quote:
Driver performance isn't static. Would you, for example, claim that Vettel would win the 2003 championship easily based on the fact that an inferior driver like Kimi took it down to the last race?

Kimi on Michelins was a different beast.

I have no doubt Vettel in the F2008 would have won the vast majority of dry races and probably a handful of wet races.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:26 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Daviidheath> whilst some of your posts are a little too biased for my liking, you do make some valid points. Especially on Canada. Vettel started 2nd, Verstappen 5th and Vettel was 4th during the braking zone. Its agreed that poor starts made a significant role in Hamilton losing the title last year so I think its equally valid here.

Your screen capture also shows he had a bit of space to back out of that and fight for another day. He knew he needed to be 2nd to fight for the win and gambled. His "risk-reward" judgements at turn 1 of the last 2 years was been poor. Especially when you know its Max Verstappen alongside you and you are fighting for a title.

It was also a point in the year where the Ferrari looked at its peak, he was 25 points ahead of Hamilton in the WDC. It was race 7 and he could have actually won ALL of the first 6 races and was sitting on 1-1-1-2-2-2 results wise. It wasn't like Singapore for example, in that he needed a result and the tide had turned against him (Mercedes dominating the middle of the year and his points lead gone by Singapore)

If he maintained 2nd place there is a good chance he could have won the race or at least have got 2nd. He ran a really sub-optimum strategy dropping to last, had damage that cost him over 0.5 per lap and still nearly got 3rd. He still likely would have got 2nd if he had dropped to 4th at the first corner too.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:52 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I have no doubt Vettel in the F2008 would have won the vast majority of dry races and probably a handful of wet races.


Yep, weather played a big part in 2008. Often overlooked. It was speculated that the Mclaren was a better car in the wet but I think now we have seen more of Hamiltons/Raikkonens/Massa prowess in the wet it is certain more arguably it was driver related.

Hamilton scored 22 points in the wet races, Massa scored 9. +13 for Hamilton.

In the remaining dry 15 races, Mclaren was probably superior to Ferrari only in Australia, Canada and China. 3/15.

Then you have races like Germany, Spa and Hungary where if you fuel adjust the qualifying times and race pace you have Hamilton-Mclaren and Massa-Ferrari at a very similar level. If those two packages are near equal, I think its a stretch to call the cars equal.

Ferrari had the best car probably around 11/15 races. Mclaren probably around 4/15. The wet races it much harder to say what was the car and what was the driver. Heikki came 8th and 5th in Hamiltons two wet wins so it certainly wasn't clear.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton had an F-duct advantage and still couldn't pass Rosberg in Bahrain. There's of course no absolute guarantee that Vettel would have won these races, but given how very rare it was in 2010 for a healthy Red Bull in the lead to be overtaken, in all likelihood Vettel would have won those races.


The Mclaren was horrible at Bahrain that year since the car was so bad over the bumps due to it's stiff suspension. That comparison isn't really relevant.

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The point still stands. Vettel lost significantly more points than everyone else in the top 5 that season.


I already refuted this point. He only lost more points because he had the fastest car.

Quote:
Ferrari held a good advantage over McLaren in 2008 (we can tell this with hindsight based on how Massa and Kimi compared to Alonso, relative to Hamilton). Hamilton made way more mistakes in 2008 than Alonso did in 2012, which would have made winning the 2008 WDC much easier.


All based on conjecture really. I guess you would agree that Ricciardo would be leading this year's WDC given how he destroyed Vettel during their 1 season as teammates? And i guess that would mean that Ricciardo would have absolutely whitewashed everyone if he were driving the F2008? ;)

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I said prime Vettel. Vettel at his best lead the WDC by 40 points midway the 2013 season despite only having a car slightly better than Lotus/Ferrari/Mercedes.


and? Massa was leading Hamilton by 10 points by midway through 2008.

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But with worse reliability. Vettel had two mechanical DNF and Button had none. Also, 2009 Vettel is not prime Vettel.


Vettel made a number of significant mistakes during the season (similar to this year). Without those mistakes, he would've been champion.

Quote:
Once again Vettel's horrible reliability in the past few races is ignored, and Mercedes' speed advantage in qualifying (which makes Hamilton's job much easier) is ignored.


1. Merc had their own troubles.
2. Without Vettel's mistakes he would still be right in the title fight.
3. What speed advantage in qualifying? It's been very close. The differences could easily be down to the drivers.

Quote:
Hamilton actually threw away 2016 despite having a dominant car. See how easy it is to ignore reliability?


Well the guy he lost the title to had the same dominant car.

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I never said he wouldn't? I said that Hamilton made a lot of mistakes and was driving a car that was usually slower in dry weather. Vettel is far superior than either Massa or Kimi in the wet, and a faster driver overall.


Vettel still can't overcome a car's inherent weakness in the wet (as we saw in Monza this year).

Quote:
I claim that even if Vettel made a significant amount of mistakes, he would still have won the WDC with the F2008. He is significantly faster and more talented than either Massa or Kimi.


So again, would you also say that Ricciardo would win in the F2008 by a bigger margin than you imagine Vettel would win the championship.

Quote:
Kimi on Michelins was a different beast.

I have no doubt Vettel in the F2008 would have won the vast majority of dry races and probably a handful of wet races.


How do you know that about Kimi? Maybe he just looked good against DC and Montoya?

I'll let you sleep with the idea that Vettel would have dominated the WDC with the F2008.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:37 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
The Mclaren was horrible at Bahrain that year since the car was so bad over the bumps due to it's stiff suspension. That comparison isn't really relevant.

And Mercedes was nowhere near as good as the Red Bull. That's the point I'm trying to make. It was very difficult to overtake around Bahrain.

Quote:
I already refuted this point. He only lost more points because he had the fastest car.

This doesn't refute the fact that if every driver has perfect reliability, Vettel would have won the 2010 WDC very easily.

Quote:
All based on conjecture really. I guess you would agree that Ricciardo would be leading this year's WDC given how he destroyed Vettel during their 1 season as teammates? And i guess that would mean that Ricciardo would have absolutely whitewashed everyone if he were driving the F2008? ;)

Or how about the fact that Ferrari was easily the fastest car in Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Turkey, France, Europe, and Brazil?

How about the fact that this season, we have seen Vettel outshine Hamilton in races where there was nothing to choose between Ferrari and Mercedes (Australia, Bahrain, Russia) and even when Ferrari is inferior (Austria).

In 2008, Massa and Raikkonen needed a better car than Hamilton to win. In equal cars, Hamilton outshined them nearly every time.

Quote:
Vettel made a number of significant mistakes during the season (similar to this year). Without those mistakes, he would've been champion.

Button was awful in the second half of the season, thoroughly outshined by Barrichello, yet he still won the WDC easily. If you are going to nitpick Vettel's season, do the same with Button.

The point still stands: Red Bull was equal in speed with Brawn and less reliable, therefore Brawn was the better car.

Quote:
1. Merc had their own troubles.
2. Without Vettel's mistakes he would still be right in the title fight.
3. What speed advantage in qualifying? It's been very close. The differences could easily be down to the drivers.

1. Not as drastic as Ferrari
2. If Hamilton was not so awful in Russia and Monaco he'd be leading the WDC no matter what Vettel did.
3. Fun fact, Mercedes this season have had a bigger advantage in qualifying than Red Bull in 2011.

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Well the guy he lost the title to had the same dominant car.

And Vettel still beat his teammate in the WDC, despite losing more points than Hamilton did in 2016, and not having a car as dominant. ;)

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Vettel still can't overcome a car's inherent weakness in the wet (as we saw in Monza this year).

The 2008 Ferrari was perfectly fine in the wet. Massa was quickest in the wet at Monaco in the first half of the race. Raikkonen was catching Hamilton at 1 second/lap before the strategy mistake at Silverstone. Raikkonen overtook Hamilton in the wet at Spa. Ferrari were quickest in the wet and in the dry at Brazil.

The Ferrari drivers couldn't deal with changing conditions. That is something at which Vettel is much better at than Kimi. A brutal demonstration is Silverstone 2015:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FJdbMH4sZic

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So again, would you also say that Ricciardo would win in the F2008 by a bigger margin than you imagine Vettel would win the championship.

How do you know that about Kimi? Maybe he just looked good against DC and Montoya?

I'll let you sleep with the idea that Vettel would have dominated the WDC with the F2008.

So your entire argument lies on the fact that "we don't really know if Vettel would have been faster than Kimi and Massa in the F2008".

Well, the only assumption you have to accept to agree with my premise is that Vettel is better than Massa by a decent amount. Something that pretty much everyone except yourself probably believes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:08 am 
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Kingvoid - you did tip toe around this question:

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I guess you would agree that Ricciardo would be leading this year's WDC given how he destroyed Vettel during their 1 season as teammates?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:26 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Kingvoid - you did tip toe around this question:
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I guess you would agree that Ricciardo would be leading this year's WDC given how he destroyed Vettel during their 1 season as teammates?

No one would be leading the WDC in the Ferrari after Malaysia and Japan, but I think Ricciardo would be closer. He wouldn't have turned into Hamilton in Baku, and his more careful starts would have led to him not DNFing in Singapore.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Not sure about that. I doubt Ricciardo would have hit MV in Canada, and he probably would've done alot better in Silvestone. Races like Spain and Austria could've been won too. There were certainly plenty of points left on the table.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
No one would be leading the WDC in the Ferrari after Malaysia and Japan, but I think Ricciardo would be closer.

Would Ferrari have pushed for as much performance at the cost of reliability with Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen or Alonso in the car? I've always been controversial in my opinion that Vettel and Rosberg would be very evenly matched.

Had Alonso still been at Ferrari, I have no doubt the WDC would be in play at Abu Dhabi.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:53 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Not sure about that. I doubt Ricciardo would have hit MV in Canada, and he probably would've done alot better in Silvestone. Races like Spain and Austria could've been won too. There were certainly plenty of points left on the table.

In Austria, Mercedes was clearly the best car. It was a failure on behalf of Hamilton for not taking provisional pole, starting 6th, and finishing on the podium.

In Spain, Vettel lost the race because he lost an 8 second lead as Ferrari did not pit under the VSC. Hamilton got lucky there.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:10 pm 
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How was Mercedes very clearly the best car in Austria?

Vettel was all over the back of Bottas by the end of the race.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:17 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
How was Mercedes very clearly the best car in Austria?

Vettel was all over the back of Bottas by the end of the race.

Do yourself a favor and don't bother arguing with this guy.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:32 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
How was Mercedes very clearly the best car in Austria?

Vettel was all over the back of Bottas by the end of the race.

My memory on it isn’t great but wasn’t Hamilton the fastest car on track in the race? I seem to remember a poster on here doing the analysis (could have been lamo).

Also with the gap between Hamilton & Bottas you’d have to assume that under normal circumstances Hamilton would be comfortably up the road.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:06 am 
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Hamilton was clearly the fastest car in the race. Bottas and Vettel had roughly equal pace (Bottas quicker on US, Vettel quicker on SS). Raikkonen was even slower than Ricciardo.

Let's not kid ourselves here. If the situations had been reversed, all the Hamilton fans would be talking about Ferrari's amazing pace.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:59 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton was clearly the fastest car in the race. Bottas and Vettel had roughly equal pace (Bottas quicker on US, Vettel quicker on SS). Raikkonen was even slower than Ricciardo.

Let's not kid ourselves here. If the situations had been reversed, all the Hamilton fans would be talking about Ferrari's amazing pace.


Hamilton only had about 20 laps in clear air all race.

Laps 41-61 was HAM and VET both in clean air trying to catch car ahead. The gap was 8.5 seconds to begin with and 8.0 seconds 20 laps later. Very close.

Bottas did build an 8 second lead on Vettel in 33 laps at the start though but did his usual poor on one tyre thing that he does every race. Mercedes was the better car that weekend. Hamilton I think probably would have won without the gearbox change.

The slight bias of the setup toward the race and Hamilton missing out on his Q2 sighter laps on the US were enough for Bottas to get pole by 0.150 from Hamilton. I think a narrow pole was possible under normal conditions although Austria in qualifying is a Hamilton weakness

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