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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:24 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I like Kubica as a person, but I never quite bought into the hype. One attrition based win and a minimal margin over Heideld wasnt enough to convince me. I know the other drivers rate him, but I also remember Fisichella being viewed in the same way..

Di Resta, again, nice enough guy, had a shot but didn't really show signs if being anything more than competent.

He was the star of the show for me in 2008. Spinning off in Silverstone is the only time I can recall him putting a foot wrong. And blew me away a number of times in 2010 - so much so that I still think he put a better season together than any of the title contenders


I think Kubica is a solid driver but when his benchmark was Nick Heidfeld and Vitaly Petrov, I'm unsure I could bestow such accolades on him. Nick beat him in 07 and 09.
It would have been interesting to see him against a rated team mate as to better gauge where he really stood.

2007 was Kubica's first full season. Heidfeld also beat Raikkonen in 2001

Either way I greatly admired Heidfeld. I don't know if any other modern day driver was screwed over so many times.
- Lined up for a McLaren seat - in walks Kimi
- First (and only) genuine opportunity at a race win - aaah we'll go with the other guy
- Lined up for a Mercedes seat - in walks Michael bloody Schumacher
- Driving a Lotus with the dodgiest of designs - gets the sack. Then of course they put together their stellar 2012 machine :uhoh:

Dude couldn't catch a break. And now he's Quick Nick with the most races/no wins record, a journeyman teammate that you should be embarrassed to lose to. Well he was no all-time great but he was better than the stats show

What does the guy in the other car have to do with it anyway? Kubica drove better than anyone else in 2008 and there's a strong case for 2010. Put Fred Flintstone in the other BMW or Renault and I don't know why that should lessen Kubica's performance. It's an open secret that he was going to be in the other Ferrari in 2012. The match-up you crave would have happened if things didn't go a certain way


Mainly because the car performance potential obviously colours how we judge driver performance.
As you say, Kubica drove well in 2008 and most acknowledge that.
Swap Nick for say Alonso as his team mate.
If Kubica still comes out on top that would be an immense performance.
If Alonso had on the other hand romped to a easy WDC, well that says a completely different thing.

What I'm saying is that I thought Heidfeld was only a journeyman driver, usually rated about 8-12 IMHO across the driver field.
So was Kubica's performance in 2008 up to par with the car or would a proven WDC have put it on another level.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:37 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I like Kubica as a person, but I never quite bought into the hype. One attrition based win and a minimal margin over Heideld wasnt enough to convince me. I know the other drivers rate him, but I also remember Fisichella being viewed in the same way..

Di Resta, again, nice enough guy, had a shot but didn't really show signs if being anything more than competent.

He was the star of the show for me in 2008. Spinning off in Silverstone is the only time I can recall him putting a foot wrong. And blew me away a number of times in 2010 - so much so that I still think he put a better season together than any of the title contenders


I think Kubica is a solid driver but when his benchmark was Nick Heidfeld and Vitaly Petrov, I'm unsure I could bestow such accolades on him. Nick beat him in 07 and 09.
It would have been interesting to see him against a rated team mate as to better gauge where he really stood.

2007 was Kubica's first full season. Heidfeld also beat Raikkonen in 2001

Either way I greatly admired Heidfeld. I don't know if any other modern day driver was screwed over so many times.
- Lined up for a McLaren seat - in walks Kimi
- First (and only) genuine opportunity at a race win - aaah we'll go with the other guy
- Lined up for a Mercedes seat - in walks Michael bloody Schumacher
- Driving a Lotus with the dodgiest of designs - gets the sack. Then of course they put together their stellar 2012 machine :uhoh:

Dude couldn't catch a break. And now he's Quick Nick with the most races/no wins record, a journeyman teammate that you should be embarrassed to lose to. Well he was no all-time great but he was better than the stats show

What does the guy in the other car have to do with it anyway? Kubica drove better than anyone else in 2008 and there's a strong case for 2010. Put Fred Flintstone in the other BMW or Renault and I don't know why that should lessen Kubica's performance. It's an open secret that he was going to be in the other Ferrari in 2012. The match-up you crave would have happened if things didn't go a certain way


Mainly because the car performance potential obviously colours how we judge driver performance.
As you say, Kubica drove well in 2008 and most acknowledge that.
Swap Nick for say Alonso as his team mate.
If Kubica still comes out on top that would be an immense performance.
If Alonso had on the other hand romped to a easy WDC, well that says a completely different thing.

What I'm saying is that I thought Heidfeld was only a journeyman driver, usually rated about 8-12 IMHO across the driver field.
So was Kubica's performance in 2008 up to par with the car or would a proven WDC have put it on another level.

Nobody will ever know. But it is a known fact that BMW stopped developing it about halfway through, which makes it unlikely that anyone could have been in the fight come Brazil. That would be truly special by any standard

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:33 am 
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I imagine if he is quick enough during these tests, then Kubica is the obvious choice really. A feel good story, a lot of extra publicity (that sponsors will surely want a piece of) and a driver with the talent and nature to help Stroll mature too, because like it or not, he isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. I know it's potentially gambling on the potential that he had before the accident, but even a Kubica at 90% is a better bet than Di Resta (or Massa again).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I like Kubica as a person, but I never quite bought into the hype. One attrition based win and a minimal margin over Heideld wasnt enough to convince me. I know the other drivers rate him, but I also remember Fisichella being viewed in the same way..

Di Resta, again, nice enough guy, had a shot but didn't really show signs if being anything more than competent.

Heidfeld also said that Kimi was his fastest team mate by some margin. Although it was at the height of Kubica hype in 2008, so he may have just been a bit miffed / passive aggressive.

Indeed bearing in mind that Heidfeld actually beat Kimi in the WDC and I think out qualified him more often that not?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:13 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I like Kubica as a person, but I never quite bought into the hype. One attrition based win and a minimal margin over Heideld wasnt enough to convince me. I know the other drivers rate him, but I also remember Fisichella being viewed in the same way..

Di Resta, again, nice enough guy, had a shot but didn't really show signs if being anything more than competent.

He was the star of the show for me in 2008. Spinning off in Silverstone is the only time I can recall him putting a foot wrong. And blew me away a number of times in 2010 - so much so that I still think he put a better season together than any of the title contenders


I think Kubica is a solid driver but when his benchmark was Nick Heidfeld and Vitaly Petrov, I'm unsure I could bestow such accolades on him. Nick beat him in 07 and 09.
It would have been interesting to see him against a rated team mate as to better gauge where he really stood.

2007 was Kubica's first full season. Heidfeld also beat Raikkonen in 2001

Either way I greatly admired Heidfeld. I don't know if any other modern day driver was screwed over so many times.
- Lined up for a McLaren seat - in walks Kimi
- First (and only) genuine opportunity at a race win - aaah we'll go with the other guy
- Lined up for a Mercedes seat - in walks Michael bloody Schumacher
- Driving a Lotus with the dodgiest of designs - gets the sack. Then of course they put together their stellar 2012 machine :uhoh:

Dude couldn't catch a break. And now he's Quick Nick with the most races/no wins record, a journeyman teammate that you should be embarrassed to lose to. Well he was no all-time great but he was better than the stats show

What does the guy in the other car have to do with it anyway? Kubica drove better than anyone else in 2008 and there's a strong case for 2010. Put Fred Flintstone in the other BMW or Renault and I don't know why that should lessen Kubica's performance. It's an open secret that he was going to be in the other Ferrari in 2012. The match-up you crave would have happened if things didn't go a certain way

I think what finally did for Heidfeld's career was that he hardly looked any better then Petrov when at Lotus and he got dropped mid season.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I like Kubica as a person, but I never quite bought into the hype. One attrition based win and a minimal margin over Heideld wasnt enough to convince me. I know the other drivers rate him, but I also remember Fisichella being viewed in the same way..

Di Resta, again, nice enough guy, had a shot but didn't really show signs if being anything more than competent.

He was the star of the show for me in 2008. Spinning off in Silverstone is the only time I can recall him putting a foot wrong. And blew me away a number of times in 2010 - so much so that I still think he put a better season together than any of the title contenders


I think Kubica is a solid driver but when his benchmark was Nick Heidfeld and Vitaly Petrov, I'm unsure I could bestow such accolades on him. Nick beat him in 07 and 09.
It would have been interesting to see him against a rated team mate as to better gauge where he really stood.

2007 was Kubica's first full season. Heidfeld also beat Raikkonen in 2001

Either way I greatly admired Heidfeld. I don't know if any other modern day driver was screwed over so many times.
- Lined up for a McLaren seat - in walks Kimi
- First (and only) genuine opportunity at a race win - aaah we'll go with the other guy
- Lined up for a Mercedes seat - in walks Michael bloody Schumacher
- Driving a Lotus with the dodgiest of designs - gets the sack. Then of course they put together their stellar 2012 machine :uhoh:

Dude couldn't catch a break. And now he's Quick Nick with the most races/no wins record, a journeyman teammate that you should be embarrassed to lose to. Well he was no all-time great but he was better than the stats show

What does the guy in the other car have to do with it anyway? Kubica drove better than anyone else in 2008 and there's a strong case for 2010. Put Fred Flintstone in the other BMW or Renault and I don't know why that should lessen Kubica's performance. It's an open secret that he was going to be in the other Ferrari in 2012. The match-up you crave would have happened if things didn't go a certain way

I think what finally did for Heidfeld's career was that he hardly looked any better then Petrov when at Lotus and he got dropped mid season.


I'll never understand the Heidfeld thing, he earned the nickname "quick Nick" back in in earlier Formula and GP2, where him and Kimi used to go at it. I actuallu expected Mclaren to sign Nick instead of Kimi, he seemed to have more pace. The fact Mclaren didn't sign him delayed his entry and the level he came in at and he never seemed to show the previous pace maybe F1 was a step too far???

As for Kimi well, Todt, Brawn et all, were all working in the same direction, reliability first, speed second and then strength so Schumi could bang wheels and not worry about it. The Merc engin in the back of the Mclaren was well up to the task, pitty they car was so brittle. I know it's " could a, would a, should a", as DC would put it but, Kimi could have one 2 titles with Mclaren, if the chassis had been better.

As for Williams, they kind of "created a saddle for their own back", when signing with Martini, they need an older driver (due to the drinking laws around the world) otherwise, well there are some really good youngsters waiting in the rank of the lower Formula.

They also need to get rid of Claire Williams, they way she talks about things it's like their Drivers, it's as if they are in Kindergarden, she's the VP of the Racing Team ffs, she either learn to leave your emotions at the door or go and do someting else, with I think SFW would prefere.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 am 
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shaunb51 wrote:
I'll never understand the Heidfeld thing, he earned the nickname "quick Nick" back in in earlier Formula and GP2, where him and Kimi used to go at it.


This is a bit strange and you are probably confusing a few series/drivers/... ? Because I'm pretty sure Kimi never drove in F3000 (wasn't GP2 until a few years later) and never raced single seaters against Heidfeld either.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:36 pm 
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mds wrote:
shaunb51 wrote:
I'll never understand the Heidfeld thing, he earned the nickname "quick Nick" back in in earlier Formula and GP2, where him and Kimi used to go at it.


This is a bit strange and you are probably confusing a few series/drivers/... ? Because I'm pretty sure Kimi never drove in F3000 (wasn't GP2 until a few years later) and never raced single seaters against Heidfeld either.


My bad, you are right but, I'm talking of the best part of 20 years ago and watched a lot of the feeder series between what I saw on Sky and Teresterial Brocasting.

However, I do think Heidfield illustration of the fact, success in the lower Formula's, does not neccessarily mean you can cut it in the top league.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:58 pm 
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shaunb51 wrote:
mds wrote:
shaunb51 wrote:
I'll never understand the Heidfeld thing, he earned the nickname "quick Nick" back in in earlier Formula and GP2, where him and Kimi used to go at it.


This is a bit strange and you are probably confusing a few series/drivers/... ? Because I'm pretty sure Kimi never drove in F3000 (wasn't GP2 until a few years later) and never raced single seaters against Heidfeld either.


My bad, you are right but, I'm talking of the best part of 20 years ago and watched a lot of the feeder series between what I saw on Sky and Teresterial Brocasting.

However, I do think Heidfield illustration of the fact, success in the lower Formula's, does not neccessarily mean you can cut it in the top league.

You were right about one thing. He and Kimi did go at it when they were both at Sauber in 2001. Heidfeld won out in the points too!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Kubica has a productive second test with Williams, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41653907


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:34 am 
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Kev627 wrote:
Kubica has a productive second test with Williams, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41653907

Wow such a long article when literally the only bit of news is... well, what you just wrote.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Kubica has a productive second test with Williams, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41653907

Wow such a long article when literally the only bit of news is... well, what you just wrote.

The internet is a scary thing. I started clicking on other topics and ended up reading about pole dancing

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:38 am 
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Have you noticed that of late, Williams get little to no exposure on screen, especially Massa. I have been noticing in the last few qualifying sessions that while he would set the 7th or 8th fastest time, FOM wouldn't even show him once on screen. On the other hand, McLaren and Haas have been getting increased on screen time primarily because of Fernando and Grosjean's moanings and K-Mag's bumper cars attitude. Stroll on the others hand gets more exposure because of his cockups like what he did today :D

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Put Rosenqvist in! I am sure he would do an excellent Job.

But I guess, yes, they are looking for another driver teacher for Stroll. They should have tried to get Perez before he extended with FI IMO.

A comeback of Kubica could be exciting if he is on form. Di Resta, uninspiring okay, but why not. Massa really would be uninspiring.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:58 am 
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Why would you want to drivers under the age of 21 paired together at a team trying to be competitive at the top end??... Not a well thought out comment.
(not to mention the over 25 years of age clause Martini have with Williams)

Besides, i'd say Kubica is the COMPLETE opposite of the definition of uninspiring.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:23 am 
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So is anyone talking about Kvyat for a Williams seat?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:30 am 
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I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:45 am 
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veffy wrote:
So is anyone talking about Kvyat for a Williams seat?

He's not old enough to meet the Sponsor's age requirements. Martini must have at leased one of their drivers over 25 due to age dringing restrictions in certain countries. So several drivers such as Kvyat, Wehrlein and a few others, they can't go for.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:49 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
veffy wrote:
So is anyone talking about Kvyat for a Williams seat?

He's not old enough to meet the Sponsor's age requirements. Martini must have at leased one of their drivers over 25 due to age dringing restrictions in certain countries. So several drivers such as Kvyat, Wehrlein and a few others, they can't go for.


ahh yes I did know about this, for some reason I thought Kvyat was older.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:51 am 
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mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:21 am 
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mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver.


Honestly, after being away for 7 full seasons I think a lot of this is conjecture. Take for example Schumacher: he was out for 3 seasons, and needed two full seasons to really get up to speed again.

After 7 seasons and having gone through one major (2014) and one big (2017) regulations overhaul, he would be pretty much entering in an entirely different formula altogether. There is no telling where he would be speedwise with regards to Massa, and how long it would take him to really get up to speed again, assuming he would ever get there again.

People are excited, and in a way I am too, but I think some have way too high expectations.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:21 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


Stroll on a good day is already better than Massa. He's had his time.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:13 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
veffy wrote:
So is anyone talking about Kvyat for a Williams seat?

He's not old enough to meet the Sponsor's age requirements. Martini must have at leased one of their drivers over 25 due to age dringing restrictions in certain countries. So several drivers such as Kvyat, Wehrlein and a few others, they can't go for.


Paddy Lowe recently said that if they want to sign a second driver under 25, they'd basically make Martini understand that's what needs to happen.

Quote:
"There are some issues around advertising and Martini, but if it came to it I’m sure Martini will understand the importance, if that’s what we were to choose, to have the best line-up for racing rather than for advertising. We’ll cross that bridge if we need to. Age is not a factor in our primary objective, which is to pick the best line-up."


So if they thought Wehrlein and Stroll, or even Kvyat and Stroll, represents their best option, that's what will happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:28 am 
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I would have prefered Bottas to move back to Williams, Ocon moving up to Mercedes and Wehrlein getting the seat at Force India.

Since that won't happen, I'll settle for Wehrlein at Williams.

Massa, Di Resta really shouldn't be in that seat. Kubica sounds nice, but like some others I fear it would take a few seasons for him to get back into it and by then he would be getting too old anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Kubica - F1 has changed way too much, he would struggle.
Di Resta - the same, and is he really a better option than Massa? Trailed at the end of the tail in Hungary. It would take him time to get up to the speed.
Massa - safest option, having still a lot of sparks, he could prepare the place for Wehrlein. He knows the team and operation, which seems to be satisfied with him. Stroll on his day better than Massa? Could be, but let's not underestimate Lance, and therefore Massa too.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:53 pm 
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DirtyMike wrote:
Why would you want to drivers under the age of 21 paired together at a team trying to be competitive at the top end??... Not a well thought out comment.
(not to mention the over 25 years of age clause Martini have with Williams)

Besides, i'd say Kubica is the COMPLETE opposite of the definition of uninspiring.

Was the complete opposite. Is he still, I really doubt.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Kubica - F1 has changed way too much, he would struggle.
Di Resta - the same, and is he really a better option than Massa? Trailed at the end of the tail in Hungary. It would take him time to get up to the speed.
Massa - safest option, having still a lot of sparks, he could prepare the place for Wehrlein. He knows the team and operation, which seems to be satisfied with him. Stroll on his day better than Massa? Could be, but let's not underestimate Lance, and therefore Massa too.

I strongly agree with this. Just because Lance is sometimes beating Massa I think shows that Stroll is good more than Massa is past his day. Massa is still looking perfectly strong at some races. In Baku, he looked the strongest I've seen him since the start of Britain in 2015. His pace was incredible there. Nearly getting passed Vettel on a couple of restarts and looking really racy until he had his problems. I honestly beleive he could have won that day. that is only if Ricciardo wasn't trying towards the end though. Showing performances like he did there shows he still has some potential. His feedback to the team seems to be good and now he's been with the team for quite a few years, I easily see him as the best option out of who they are considering.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:28 pm 
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mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I wonder how you know about the test when it was kept so secret?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:29 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.

I wouldn't disagree about Massa but I heard the problem with him is the amount of money he is asking for.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


Stroll on a good day is already better than Massa. He's had his time.

He was nowhere near Massa last time out, Massa has scored points in 11 out of 16 races, he's still a safe pair of hands.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


Stroll on a good day is already better than Massa. He's had his time.

He was nowhere near Massa last time out, Massa has scored points in 11 out of 16 races, he's still a safe pair of hands.

I didn't actually realise he was that consistent. And even with that, he lost an opportunity for loads points in races he didn't get any in such in Spain, Canada and Baku. So I think that almost definitely means he would have scored in 14/16 races if not for his luck. China and Singapore to me were his only races where he clearly looked weaker than normal. I think this shows he's still pretty solid and easily good enough to remain in F1. I think the end of last season was pretty poor by him but he's looked a fair amount better this year.

I can't remember if I replied to your comment the other day about the money Massa is expecting. Maybe it is a lot but even if he wants more money than other drivers, I still think he is easily the best option.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Kubica will be announced before Brazil to give Massa a proper sendoff. Kubica is a good choice as he is in the same high speed category as Massa, probably better, but also less flaky in the race and a better development driver. Most of the accounts of the tests indicate he shaded DiResta. He would be a good 'inspired' fit for Williams. The only thing I worry about with Kubica as I did when he was last in F1 is how close to the edge he is in races leading to some spectacular crashes.

I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


Stroll on a good day is already better than Massa. He's had his time.

He was nowhere near Massa last time out, Massa has scored points in 11 out of 16 races, he's still a safe pair of hands.

I didn't actually realise he was that consistent. And even with that, he lost an opportunity for loads points in races he didn't get any in such in Spain, Canada and Baku. So I think that almost definitely means he would have scored in 14/16 races if not for his luck. China and Singapore to me were his only races where he clearly looked weaker than normal. I think this shows he's still pretty solid and easily good enough to remain in F1. I think the end of last season was pretty poor by him but he's looked a fair amount better this year.

I can't remember if I replied to your comment the other day about the money Massa is expecting. Maybe it is a lot but even if he wants more money than other drivers, I still think he is easily the best option.


Or is he just against a weak team mate making him look better by comparison?

The Williams had loads of pace at the start of the season - Red Bull matching pace and Massa, while unlucky, did little with it. Kubica just might be better. Worst case scenario he makes there cash cow look great.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I struggle to believe Kubica will be better than Massa instantly as he hasn't been in an F1 race for years. Personally I think Massa is easily the safest option out of who they are considering. I think Massa has been really underrated this season. He looks a fair bit better that last year and would almost certainly be ahead of Sainz, Ocon and possibly even Perez if it wasn't for his bad luck. He's had a few worse races but hasn't made many big mistakes this year. Drivers that we rave about such as Verstappen have easily made more mistakes than Massa. IMO, he's still solid enough to deserve another season and his 4 years at Williams and long career in F1 as well as having experienced the whole hybrid era unlike Di Resta and Kubica will help too. I just can't see either of their other 2 options working out better even if Massa is not longer that great.


Stroll on a good day is already better than Massa. He's had his time.

He was nowhere near Massa last time out, Massa has scored points in 11 out of 16 races, he's still a safe pair of hands.

I didn't actually realise he was that consistent. And even with that, he lost an opportunity for loads points in races he didn't get any in such in Spain, Canada and Baku. So I think that almost definitely means he would have scored in 14/16 races if not for his luck. China and Singapore to me were his only races where he clearly looked weaker than normal. I think this shows he's still pretty solid and easily good enough to remain in F1. I think the end of last season was pretty poor by him but he's looked a fair amount better this year.

I can't remember if I replied to your comment the other day about the money Massa is expecting. Maybe it is a lot but even if he wants more money than other drivers, I still think he is easily the best option.


Or is he just against a weak team mate making him look better by comparison?

He's still scoring consistent points and not getting involved in silly incidents.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:07 pm 
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They should just run Kubica and PDR against Massa in P1 before the end of the season if they are going to wait until the end anyway. Give everyone a fair shout including Massa.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He's still scoring consistent points and not getting involved in silly incidents.


Better luck than judgement. He drove Magnussen into a wall in Singapore at about 160mph.

Williams should be up with FI in the constructors championship. There miles off in reality I thought Massa's US drive was his best for a while but before that Stroll had him beat three races in a row Belgium - Singapore


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:00 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He's still scoring consistent points and not getting involved in silly incidents.


Better luck than judgement. He drove Magnussen into a wall in Singapore at about 160mph.

Williams should be up with FI in the constructors championship. There miles off in reality I thought Massa's US drive was his best for a while but before that Stroll had him beat three races in a row Belgium - Singapore

I remember KMag's crazy dive down the inside of Massa.

Massa beat Stroll in Spa, finished right behind Stroll at Monza despite Stroll starting on the front row, he tried to pass him, and then close behind Stroll in Singapore with 2 cars between them.

Both Monza and Singapore were affected by the rain and Stroll is better than Massa in the rain so that was a bit of a differentiator.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:05 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Di Resta - the same, and is he really a better option than Massa? Trailed at the end of the tail in Hungary.


Isn't this a bit too harsh? He literally stepped in the car for the first time in qualifying, having built up no knowledge about the car and its handling (both empty and on different fuel loads), the tyres and their operating windows and wear rate, ...
With a proper build-up to the weekend including getting used to the car in free practice sessions, who knows what he would have done? And that's not even talking about letting hem get a proper build-up to the season during winter testing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He's still scoring consistent points and not getting involved in silly incidents.


Better luck than judgement. He drove Magnussen into a wall in Singapore at about 160mph.

Williams should be up with FI in the constructors championship. There miles off in reality I thought Massa's US drive was his best for a while but before that Stroll had him beat three races in a row Belgium - Singapore

I remember KMag's crazy dive down the inside of Massa.

Massa beat Stroll in Spa, finished right behind Stroll at Monza despite Stroll starting on the front row, he tried to pass him, and then close behind Stroll in Singapore with 2 cars between them.

Both Monza and Singapore were affected by the rain and Stroll is better than Massa in the rain so that was a bit of a differentiator.


Seriously? How can you dive "crazily" down the inside of someone when both cars are flat out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5cXY4knyFQ - That's a "crazy dive"?

I think you can't remember the incident? If the roles were reversed K-Mag would still be getting heat and if Verstappen had done it you'd never stop talking about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:41 am 
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Massa on his rivals for next year's seat ...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mass ... ve-970197/

"To be honest, I cannot do what he's doing, driving with only one hand. It's impossible for me to believe that he will not suffer with some of the races with this car that we're driving that is a lot more difficult physically."

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:34 pm 
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mas wrote:
Massa on his rivals for next year's seat ...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mass ... ve-970197/

"To be honest, I cannot do what he's doing, driving with only one hand. It's impossible for me to believe that he will not suffer with some of the races with this car that we're driving that is a lot more difficult physically."

When you actually read the whole article, I think his words are very fair from his point of view. I don't think he's being unreasonable.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:48 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
Massa on his rivals for next year's seat ...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mass ... ve-970197/

"To be honest, I cannot do what he's doing, driving with only one hand. It's impossible for me to believe that he will not suffer with some of the races with this car that we're driving that is a lot more difficult physically."

When you actually read the whole article, I think his words are very fair from his point of view. I don't think he's being unreasonable.

I read the whole article. I would question what he knows and can add regarding Kubica's physical ability that isn't currently being covered by Williams, Kubica and others directly involved in assessing it. I think coming from someone in his position public comments like this seem snide and somewhat desperate.

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