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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
also how do they decide Massa wasn't good enough when he was so much better than Stroll?


It took Stroll a while to get going but from Canada onwards he has outscored Massa 40 points to 22. Even if you called AZE a fluke result and take it out, he'd still have 3 points more.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Is anybody else hoping Williams with whatever driver line up to be regularly challenging for podiums?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
Is anybody else hoping Williams with whatever driver line up to be regularly challenging for podiums?


If Renault build any kind of decent engine next year, Williams will be behind there works team, McLaren, Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. With Force India having two better drivers in Ocon and Perez, Williams will probably struggle to get into the points regularly.

Much relies on that Renault unit. I for one hope it's a belter, as there will be 6 awesome drivers sitting in front of one.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
pokerman wrote:
also how do they decide Massa wasn't good enough when he was so much better than Stroll?


It took Stroll a while to get going but from Canada onwards he has outscored Massa 40 points to 22. Even if you called AZE a fluke result and take it out, he'd still have 3 points more.

I think it's been discussed before how points don't always tell the full story, look at both Alonso/Vandoorne and Verstappen/Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
Is anybody else hoping Williams with whatever driver line up to be regularly challenging for podiums?

I think the reality is that Williams will probably do worse next season.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Now that Massa is gone, this is my ranking of Williams candidates:

1. Wehrlein
2. Di Resta
3. Kvyat
4. Kubica

Any other name left out?

I would have them in quite a different order.

Kvyat: He's had a bad 2 previous seasons. But he's been kicked about in both and had terrible reliability. His first season was pretty good for a rookie and he certainly did show to be what I would call above average in 2015. He had some really good performances that year. He's still very young. With a new and quite likely, more competitive team, I think it is quite likely he could bring his 2015 season performance back, or possibly better.

Di Resta: At first, I didn't think this was a good option. But he has been with Williams for a year. He's also driven in 1 race. The simulator will have helped him a huge amount and I think that even though he's missed out on all of the hybrid era, he should be decent.

Wehrlein: I think ericsson is underrated, but nothing special. But the difference between Wehrlein and Ericsson isn't much at all. Their pace is very similar and they both have some good performances. But Ericsson crashes more. But I don't think either of them are good. I'd say they are both below average.

Kubica: He's been out of F1 for 7 years. Do I need to say much more? I really don't like having to speak like this as it sounds unreasonable. But even if you were great at the time, having that amount of time out of the sport surely will have a huge affect on your ability to rejoin again. It will only be good for people who really want him to return. I think the performance he would put in would unlikely be much better (if any better) than Stroll's second season. And I expect Stroll to improve.




If it is to do with money, maybe Kubica will be the best option. If it is to do with having a solid reliable driver they can trust, then they should have kept Massa. I think he's better than all the others. But I can understand the money issues.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:46 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Kubica: He's been out of F1 for 7 years. Do I need to say much more? I really don't like having to speak like this as it sounds unreasonable. But even if you were great at the time, having that amount of time out of the sport surely will have a huge affect on your ability to rejoin again. It will only be good for people who really want him to return. I think the performance he would put in would unlikely be much better (if any better) than Stroll's second season. And I expect Stroll to improve.

<cough> Schumacher


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:42 am 
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mcdo wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Kubica is going to be such a huge disappointment. May even leave mid-season.

Why all the negativity? You have absolutely no idea how he's going to perform


Oh, I do have an idea. He's gonna suck big time.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:32 am 
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I must admit the whole value of Kubica to me seems to be the PR story? And I think that's the reason every team with a contract coming up for renewal indulged the press by presenting him as a possible option.

I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:50 am 
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veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:22 am 
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Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


Heidfeld was a very good driver IMO.

I think when analysing the Kubica/Heidfeld situation thinks look better for Kubica.

07 was his debut full year.
08 he did really well
09 he was still clearly better than Hedifeld in a difficult car to drive.

His 2010 season was also pretty mega.

I think a season like 08 with Hamilton slightly off form and Alonso not in the WDC drivers like Kubica and Heidfeld could be seen as stand out performers because I think they were both better than Massa who was competing for the championship at the time.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:54 am 
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Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


Heidfeld did beat Webber, Kimi and Massa when they were team mates, it's not as if he was struggling against Tarso Marques or Tora Takagi.

I'd agree though, he was better than Hulk (who is better than Sutil). Probably in that Kimi/Button/Hill/Rosberg area of being a top driver and worth a WDC but not quite a megastar like Lewis, Seb or Fred.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:12 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Now that Massa is gone, this is my ranking of Williams candidates:



Kubica: He's been out of F1 for 7 years. Do I need to say much more? I really don't like having to speak like this as it sounds unreasonable. But even if you were great at the time, having that amount of time out of the sport surely will have a huge affect on your ability to rejoin again. It will only be good for people who really want him to return. I think the performance he would put in would unlikely be much better (if any better) than Stroll's second season. And I expect Stroll to improve.




If it is to do with money, maybe Kubica will be the best option. If it is to do with having a solid reliable driver they can trust, then they should have kept Massa. I think he's better than all the others. But I can understand the money issues.


Stroll is so off the pace when compared to Massa in one lap pace though. I reckon if Stroll had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate he would be about a second slower most of the time. I think Kubica will beat him, but like I said earlier, the gap needs to be significant. Sorry but I just don't think Stroll has shown he deserves to be in F1. Pretty soon people will realize he is Jolyon Palmer 2.0


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Now that Massa is gone, this is my ranking of Williams candidates:



Kubica: He's been out of F1 for 7 years. Do I need to say much more? I really don't like having to speak like this as it sounds unreasonable. But even if you were great at the time, having that amount of time out of the sport surely will have a huge affect on your ability to rejoin again. It will only be good for people who really want him to return. I think the performance he would put in would unlikely be much better (if any better) than Stroll's second season. And I expect Stroll to improve.




If it is to do with money, maybe Kubica will be the best option. If it is to do with having a solid reliable driver they can trust, then they should have kept Massa. I think he's better than all the others. But I can understand the money issues.


Stroll is so off the pace when compared to Massa in one lap pace though. I reckon if Stroll had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate he would be about a second slower most of the time. I think Kubica will beat him, but like I said earlier, the gap needs to be significant. Sorry but I just don't think Stroll has shown he deserves to be in F1. Pretty soon people will realize he is Jolyon Palmer 2.0


Maybe now but he's got a ton more improvement in him than Palmer.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.

We seem to go from one extreme to another, the best driver of 2008 to a driver that often was no better than Nick Heidfled, the truth lies somewhere in the middle not quite tier 1.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Which is something I expect to be that way. Just as ResevoirDog said...
ReservoirDog wrote:
Kubica is going to be such a huge disappointment. May even leave mid-season.

Or maybe eve after 2-3 races.

There is no negativity in this. F1 is vastly different than when he drove last time. The drivers are not set apart anymore by 0,1 like when he drove last time, but 0,01 sec/lap. It's going to be tough for him.

I think you highly underestimate the WRC

Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:25 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.

2008 driver of the year!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:37 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


My memory is fine.
Kubica and Heidfeld were closely matched and that doesn't say a lot for either of them.
I would put a few quid on Alonso and Hamilton being able to challenge right till the end of the 2008 season in that BMW.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


My memory is fine.
Kubica and Heidfeld were closely matched and that doesn't say a lot for either of them.
I would put a few quid on Alonso and Hamilton being able to challenge right till the end of the 2008 season in that BMW.


BIB - Why? and they weren't in 2008.

Second sentence - Kubica did challenge until the second and last race so if only slightly worse than you would bet on Hamilton or Alonso doing. That's very good for a driver in his second full season surely?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Something to remember though guys, What we are (should be) thinking of is not 'the best driver' but the best driver for Williams at this point in time.

I would not like to see Alonso go to Williams as it would not be good for Alonso, the Williams team, or the already nailed on and possibly improving other driver, who has deep pockets and can reach in or zip them up as required.

Also to remember is the RK has been paid out by an insurance company as being unable to drive a F1 car.
Williams hit rock bottom after being dragged through the legal system due to an accident, do they want to go there again? it would destroy them if the claim was 'an expert said RK could not drive a F1 car and you turned him loose on the track'

There is also the one way street of RK having to give back what he was paid out if he does drive, and it is not going to be reversible this time.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:32 pm 
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IMO, Heidfeld is better than Räikkönen or Massa and so would be pre-accident Kubica.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:38 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Which is something I expect to be that way. Just as ResevoirDog said...
ReservoirDog wrote:
Kubica is going to be such a huge disappointment. May even leave mid-season.

Or maybe eve after 2-3 races.

There is no negativity in this. F1 is vastly different than when he drove last time. The drivers are not set apart anymore by 0,1 like when he drove last time, but 0,01 sec/lap. It's going to be tough for him.

I think you highly underestimate the WRC

Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:44 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.

I believe his qualifying record was 50/50 against Heidfeld and like has been said he wasn't outstanding in the wet, who trailed behind Hamilton in Silverstone 2008, that was Heidfled, in 2009 Heidfeld beat Kubica fair and square.

He was very good but ultimately unproven in a top car against a top teammate.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:09 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:51 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be


There is far more 'elbow room' in a sport than in a F1 tub. The arms are more or less 'pinned' at a 90 degree angle and impossible to 'stick your elbows out' to get around limited movement in one joint. I think it would be the restricted angle more than any power or movement problem


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:35 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
veffy wrote:
I wasn't a serious f1 fan when he was driving originally but it seems to me he was a Hulk/Sutil level driver who would be considering retirement around now if not for his accident, maybe with a podium or two against his name.

I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.
His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.

He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.

Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.
Fellow drivers, including Hamilton and Alonso, rated Kubica very highly. As for qualifying, he stuck the Renault onto the front row at Monaco in 2010, one circuit were a driver can make a bit of a difference over a single lap.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:00 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be

In the WRC he actually struggled in tight corners due to the limitations of his arm even with all the driver aids he was allowed.

Some fast stages also came at the expense of many crashes, he very much was driving at 11 tenths, he basically couldn't complete a rally without crashing, I believe that he perhaps had to over drive on certain parts of the rally to compensate for the corners were he struggled because of his disability?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:02 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.
His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.

He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.

Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.
Fellow drivers, including Hamilton and Alonso, rated Kubica very highly. As for qualifying, he stuck the Renault onto the front row at Monaco in 2010, one circuit were a driver can make a bit of a difference over a single lap.

He was able to put in special performances but the question mark still stands at how often Heidfeld was able to beat him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:12 pm 
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moby wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be


There is far more 'elbow room' in a sport than in a F1 tub. The arms are more or less 'pinned' at a 90 degree angle and impossible to 'stick your elbows out' to get around limited movement in one joint. I think it would be the restricted angle more than any power or movement problem

But was this not the issue that was resolved with his most recent bout of surgeries? I'm pretty sure if something this obvious was still a problem he wouldn't be in the running. Surely somebody at Williams would have noticed

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Meaning?

That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be

In the WRC he actually struggled in tight corners due to the limitations of his arm even with all the driver aids he was allowed.

Some fast stages also came at the expense of many crashes, he very much was driving at 11 tenths, he basically couldn't complete a rally without crashing, I believe that he perhaps had to over drive on certain parts of the rally to compensate for the corners were he struggled because of his disability?

He certainly did crash too often for his own good. He had a Kris Meeke-like approach to throwing caution to the wind. Meeke also nearly lost his job this year

But any driver that could knock out the occasional fastest stage time in the WRC is not someone that is bereft of talent. Especially with the limitations you mention. And, as mentioned above, those limitations have supposedly since been resolved

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think that would be selling him quite short. It's hard to really place Kubica, but I'm pretty confident he was well over the level of Hulk or Sutil. He was able to win with a car that wasn't the best, and he could get podiums from a car that was no better than the ones Hulk has driven (2009 or 2010).

A lot - if not most - of Kubica's reputation is built on the 2008 season, and year where many people feel he performed at a level above the actual WDC contenders. However, the rest of his career is shadowed by his inability to dominate Nick Heidfeld, making Kubica a harder to place driver than many.


His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.

And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:33 pm 
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I actually agree that Kubica never was as good as Hamilton or Alonso. But he was better than Räikkönen or Massa. If he can show this level of performance again, then he should be the perfect choice for Williams.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:40 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
That there's every reason to believe he won't be performing at a level so bad he'll be dropped after 2-3 races

I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be

In the WRC he actually struggled in tight corners due to the limitations of his arm even with all the driver aids he was allowed.

Some fast stages also came at the expense of many crashes, he very much was driving at 11 tenths, he basically couldn't complete a rally without crashing, I believe that he perhaps had to over drive on certain parts of the rally to compensate for the corners were he struggled because of his disability?

He certainly did crash too often for his own good. He had a Kris Meeke-like approach to throwing caution to the wind. Meeke also nearly lost his job this year

But any driver that could knock out the occasional fastest stage time in the WRC is not someone that is bereft of talent. Especially with the limitations you mention. And, as mentioned above, those limitations have supposedly since been resolved

Kris Meeke has won rallies though and can string together consistent fast stages unlike what we would see with Kubica.

We don't know what limitations that Kubica still has though, it was rumoured that di Resta was a couple of tenths quicker in their recent test and let's not forget he was tested by Renault but not taken on, Kubica pre-accident would have walked into the Renault team.

What Kubica has that di Resta doesn't have is sponsors and it's perhaps sad that he will have paid for the drive and this would be perfectly in keeping with how Williams have operated these past few years.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:43 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
His performance in 2008 is one of the most overrated performances of any driver I can think of. He also won that race because Heidfeld wasn't allowed to compete fairly, something he was rather tiddled about.

He was on the level of NH, not very inspiring, and had no killer instinct that is necessary to qualify as a top 3 talent. He didn't also have that one thing that stood above all else. Like quali pace, or overtaking, or wet skills.

He was a solid driver. In fact, he was exactly like Bottas in every way.


He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.

And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I actually agree that Kubica never was as good as Hamilton or Alonso. But he was better than Räikkönen or Massa. If he can show this level of performance again, then he should be the perfect choice for Williams.

Without doubt but there is a big IF involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm still unsure about the WRC reference?

I would be willing to suggest that drivers' arms undergo more movement and activity in WRC than they do in F1. So if he was able to set fastest stage times in an adapted WRC car then I don't believe his injured arm will be the root cause of performance so bad that he'll be dropped after 2-3 races. He openly stated throughout the years that the confines of the cockpit and its impact in places like Monaco were the reason why he couldn't return to F1. That has since been corrected (apparently)

He might be out of practice. He might be out of sync with the regulations. But Yuji Ide he will not be

In the WRC he actually struggled in tight corners due to the limitations of his arm even with all the driver aids he was allowed.

Some fast stages also came at the expense of many crashes, he very much was driving at 11 tenths, he basically couldn't complete a rally without crashing, I believe that he perhaps had to over drive on certain parts of the rally to compensate for the corners were he struggled because of his disability?

He certainly did crash too often for his own good. He had a Kris Meeke-like approach to throwing caution to the wind. Meeke also nearly lost his job this year

But any driver that could knock out the occasional fastest stage time in the WRC is not someone that is bereft of talent. Especially with the limitations you mention. And, as mentioned above, those limitations have supposedly since been resolved

Kris Meeke has won rallies though and can string together consistent fast stages unlike what we would see with Kubica.

We don't know what limitations that Kubica still has though, it was rumoured that di Resta was a couple of tenths quicker in their recent test and let's not forget he was tested by Renault but not taken on, Kubica pre-accident would have walked into the Renault team.

What Kubica has that di Resta doesn't have is sponsors and it's perhaps sad that he will have paid for the drive and this would be perfectly in keeping with how Williams have operated these past few years.

I don't see how the offer they made to Fernando Alonso fits into that

The Renault situation is pretty straightforward. Sainz was one of their original targets and they were told to buzz off. Then through a series of political maneuvering he was available. And not only next year, but now. And unlike Kubica, Sainz is a sure thing

I truly believe if the Toro Rosso-Honda talks came to nothing we'd be discussing Kubica to Renault

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