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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:54 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:03 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Nice to see the actual sequence of events, Hamilton said something about Vettel so Grosjean felt the need to step in to say something about Hamilton.

Or maybe discussion of a post-race rule procedure being broken made Grosjean think it was a good time to bring up a post-race rule procedure being broken?

I don't know why you're jumping to conspiracy that Grosjean brought it up to 'defend' Ferrari/Vettel. It's perfectly logical for Grosjean to remember that when you think about what is being discussed at the time.

Just a coincidence that it was directed at Hamilton himself and not a general safety question?

I don't think it was a specific jab at Hamilton. He was the winner of this race and he did remove his seat belts, hence he was the one questioned. No other driver removed his seat belts (that I could see). If nothing else, Grosjean agreed that it was nice to see the driver waving at the fans.

However just in the previous race the rules were questioned about the safety procedures being followed after the race has ended. It's not so difficult to see why Grosjean wants to clarify if the safety procedures are to be followed or not.

Hamilton didn't win the race that was Verstappen so what Grosjean brought up had nothing to do with the last race which was the point of the meeting.


Where did I say that Hamilton won the last race? What I meant is that we had a very recent issue with safety after the chequered flag in just the previous race, so maybe he wanted to raise the point of procedures after the finish of a race. Is this so far fetched?

You have the biggest chip in the world when it comes to someone even remotely hinting that Hamilton's p00 isn't made of gold... It is becoming tiresome to have any kind of chat with you


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:18 am 
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Hamilton literally has one hand on his fourth WDC trophy and yet some still try to paint him as the victim.
Can't say I'm surprised, it's being that way for 10 years.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:26 am 
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cm97 wrote:
Hamilton literally has one hand on his fourth WDC trophy and yet some still try to paint him as the victim.
Can't say I'm surprised, it's being that way for 10 years.

*figuratively


Sorry! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:27 am 
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Maybe we should change the subject header to - Post subject: Re: Grosjean complains about Everything

:D

I like him, but he seems to be on a continual rant


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:43 am 
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Covalent wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Hamilton literally has one hand on his fourth WDC trophy and yet some still try to paint him as the victim.
Can't say I'm surprised, it's being that way for 10 years.

*figuratively


Sorry! :lol:


:thumbup: Quality edit.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:49 am 
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moby wrote:
Maybe we should change the subject header to - Post subject: Re: Grosjean complains about Everything

:D

I like him, but he seems to be on a continual rant


A frenchman complaining????

I was on a conference call with a bunch of French colleagues and I asked if everything was ok and was met with silence. After I prodded a bit, one of them kindly informed me that silence means they're happy as all they want to do is complain. :) And casual racism is ok when you're insulting your own people.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:55 am 
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Invade wrote:
... or/and a jab at Vettel's post-race incident with Stroll.

Inside The F1 Driver Briefing | 2017 Japanese Grand Prix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg


Thanks for the link.

Interesting to see a briefing.

Main thing I take from it is Charlie not applying the rules - selectively?

I'd rather the FIA write the rules and then apply them consistently.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:26 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Invade wrote:
... or/and a jab at Vettel's post-race incident with Stroll.

Inside The F1 Driver Briefing | 2017 Japanese Grand Prix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg


Thanks for the link.

Interesting to see a briefing.

Main thing I take from it is Charlie not applying the rules - selectively?

I'd rather the FIA write the rules and then apply them consistently.


I prefer common sense approach. The real issue with the rules is they have to be written in such a lawyerly way, whereas they don't in most sports. In most sports you can write things in the 'spirit of the rule', and then rely on your referees and the guidance you give them.

In F1... everyone is after a loophole. I think we have the issue of common sense rulings being very difficult to apply, and everyone is looking to find a way around the 'spirit of the rule'.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Has anyone seen the Japan driver briefing? If you haven't check this beauty out at 3:14 :lol:

I love how he has no comeback either. Just like his title hopes :nod:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Invade wrote:
... or/and a jab at Vettel's post-race incident with Stroll.

Inside The F1 Driver Briefing | 2017 Japanese Grand Prix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPr5khO86Eg


Thanks for the link.

Interesting to see a briefing.

Main thing I take from it is Charlie not applying the rules - selectively?

I'd rather the FIA write the rules and then apply them consistently.


I prefer common sense approach. The real issue with the rules is they have to be written in such a lawyerly way, whereas they don't in most sports. In most sports you can write things in the 'spirit of the rule', and then rely on your referees and the guidance you give them.

In F1... everyone is after a loophole. I think we have the issue of common sense rulings being very difficult to apply, and everyone is looking to find a way around the 'spirit of the rule'.

Sounds like you haven't read many sports rulebooks then. Most sports rules are written the same way for the same reason. Every major team sport also has meetings every off season to discuss how to rewrite or better enforce their rules. The NFL goes so far as to tell teams when they are going to make certain rules "a point of emphasis" every year. This is when they feel that players or team shave been sailing a little too close to the wind with the spirit of a rule and the league cracks down on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:23 pm 
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funniest thing hamiltons ever said.

love how they have no qualms about grassing people up and having little digs at each other


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
funniest thing hamiltons ever said.

love how they have no qualms about grassing people up and having little digs at each other

They all just have fun with this stuff. It's people in the forums that get their undies bunched up.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Apparently Vettel wanted to take a leaf out of Hamilton's book and do his talking on the tra... oh wait ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Why do we have 2 threads about the same exact thing?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:19 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Why do we have 2 threads about the same exact thing?

Good question. So I have merged them.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Here's the video again for easier access & endless repeats:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:23 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.

Judging by how CW chairs this meeting, someone needs to try and take charge of it!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:47 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.

the point is surely that he does run the GPDA and therefore is just doing what is within his remit?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So Lewis gets to bring up a totally pointless rule infringement against his rival, and that's okay...

But if somebody else brings up a totally pointless rule infringement against Lewis they're suddenly out to get him?

:uhoh:

Which was pertinent to the last race that involved his main competition, Vettel was never going to get penalised, the time for that had already passed, I think it was more about Hamilton saying if you're not penalising Vettel then think before there is anything to penalise me for.

What Grosjean brought forward had nothing to do with the last race and was said immediately after Hamilton spoke so seemed to be tit for tat.

c'mon pokerman, seriously. Even you must see how skewed that is. You're basically creating rules just to legitimise what Hamilton says and invalidate anything anyone else says.

If Grosjean was so concerned about the seat belts he could easily have brought it up long before he did, he clearly responded to what Hamilton said.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Or maybe discussion of a post-race rule procedure being broken made Grosjean think it was a good time to bring up a post-race rule procedure being broken?

I don't know why you're jumping to conspiracy that Grosjean brought it up to 'defend' Ferrari/Vettel. It's perfectly logical for Grosjean to remember that when you think about what is being discussed at the time.

Just a coincidence that it was directed at Hamilton himself and not a general safety question?

I don't think it was a specific jab at Hamilton. He was the winner of this race and he did remove his seat belts, hence he was the one questioned. No other driver removed his seat belts (that I could see). If nothing else, Grosjean agreed that it was nice to see the driver waving at the fans.

However just in the previous race the rules were questioned about the safety procedures being followed after the race has ended. It's not so difficult to see why Grosjean wants to clarify if the safety procedures are to be followed or not.

Hamilton didn't win the race that was Verstappen so what Grosjean brought up had nothing to do with the last race which was the point of the meeting.


Where did I say that Hamilton won the last race? What I meant is that we had a very recent issue with safety after the chequered flag in just the previous race, so maybe he wanted to raise the point of procedures after the finish of a race. Is this so far fetched?

You have the biggest chip in the world when it comes to someone even remotely hinting that Hamilton's p00 isn't made of gold... It is becoming tiresome to have any kind of chat with you

He never mentioned the incident between Vettel and Stroll.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So Lewis gets to bring up a totally pointless rule infringement against his rival, and that's okay...

But if somebody else brings up a totally pointless rule infringement against Lewis they're suddenly out to get him?

:uhoh:

Which was pertinent to the last race that involved his main competition, Vettel was never going to get penalised, the time for that had already passed, I think it was more about Hamilton saying if you're not penalising Vettel then think before there is anything to penalise me for.

What Grosjean brought forward had nothing to do with the last race and was said immediately after Hamilton spoke so seemed to be tit for tat.

c'mon pokerman, seriously. Even you must see how skewed that is. You're basically creating rules just to legitimise what Hamilton says and invalidate anything anyone else says.

If Grosjean was so concerned about the seat belts he could easily have brought it up long before he did, he clearly responded to what Hamilton said.

so maybe he thought as they were discussing specific points of order on driver conduct now was a good time to raise it. Why is it even an issue? isn't this taking victimhood a little far? What, in fact, did he say that was so wrong?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Just a coincidence that it was directed at Hamilton himself and not a general safety question?

I don't think it was a specific jab at Hamilton. He was the winner of this race and he did remove his seat belts, hence he was the one questioned. No other driver removed his seat belts (that I could see). If nothing else, Grosjean agreed that it was nice to see the driver waving at the fans.

However just in the previous race the rules were questioned about the safety procedures being followed after the race has ended. It's not so difficult to see why Grosjean wants to clarify if the safety procedures are to be followed or not.

Hamilton didn't win the race that was Verstappen so what Grosjean brought up had nothing to do with the last race which was the point of the meeting.


Where did I say that Hamilton won the last race? What I meant is that we had a very recent issue with safety after the chequered flag in just the previous race, so maybe he wanted to raise the point of procedures after the finish of a race. Is this so far fetched?

You have the biggest chip in the world when it comes to someone even remotely hinting that Hamilton's p00 isn't made of gold... It is becoming tiresome to have any kind of chat with you

He never mentioned the incident between Vettel and Stroll.


I didn't say he did. Please read again


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So Lewis gets to bring up a totally pointless rule infringement against his rival, and that's okay...

But if somebody else brings up a totally pointless rule infringement against Lewis they're suddenly out to get him?

:uhoh:

Which was pertinent to the last race that involved his main competition, Vettel was never going to get penalised, the time for that had already passed, I think it was more about Hamilton saying if you're not penalising Vettel then think before there is anything to penalise me for.

What Grosjean brought forward had nothing to do with the last race and was said immediately after Hamilton spoke so seemed to be tit for tat.

c'mon pokerman, seriously. Even you must see how skewed that is. You're basically creating rules just to legitimise what Hamilton says and invalidate anything anyone else says.

If Grosjean was so concerned about the seat belts he could easily have brought it up long before he did, he clearly responded to what Hamilton said.

so maybe he thought as they were discussing specific points of order on driver conduct now was a good time to raise it. Why is it even an issue? isn't this taking victimhood a little far? What, in fact, did he say that was so wrong?

It's not about what, it's about who...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.

the point is surely that he does run the GPDA and therefore is just doing what is within his remit?


He also drives an F1 car, and driving it well is also within his remit. Never seen him do that. The guy's a total waste.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I don't think it was a specific jab at Hamilton. He was the winner of this race and he did remove his seat belts, hence he was the one questioned. No other driver removed his seat belts (that I could see). If nothing else, Grosjean agreed that it was nice to see the driver waving at the fans.

However just in the previous race the rules were questioned about the safety procedures being followed after the race has ended. It's not so difficult to see why Grosjean wants to clarify if the safety procedures are to be followed or not.

Hamilton didn't win the race that was Verstappen so what Grosjean brought up had nothing to do with the last race which was the point of the meeting.


Where did I say that Hamilton won the last race? What I meant is that we had a very recent issue with safety after the chequered flag in just the previous race, so maybe he wanted to raise the point of procedures after the finish of a race. Is this so far fetched?

You have the biggest chip in the world when it comes to someone even remotely hinting that Hamilton's p00 isn't made of gold... It is becoming tiresome to have any kind of chat with you

He never mentioned the incident between Vettel and Stroll.


I didn't say he did. Please read again

You speculated why he brought it up, I'm surprised if that was his reasoning why he didn't elaborate even more, also undone seat belts didn't cause the crash.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:45 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.
He isn't playing copper, he is a director of the GPDA. Unless he raises uncertainty about safety issues, he isn't doing that particular job well. What you think about his driving is your opinion. Mine is that there's a reason why he is in F1 and the two of us are not.

Were there other candidates for the job of director of the GPDA? Or were all the other driver members happy to have Romain as their spokesperson and the director of their association?


I was wondering whether the stewards are present in the drivers' briefing. If so, I would expect them to take an active part in answering questions about rule clarification. They will after all be applying them during the race.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't win the race that was Verstappen so what Grosjean brought up had nothing to do with the last race which was the point of the meeting.


Where did I say that Hamilton won the last race? What I meant is that we had a very recent issue with safety after the chequered flag in just the previous race, so maybe he wanted to raise the point of procedures after the finish of a race. Is this so far fetched?

You have the biggest chip in the world when it comes to someone even remotely hinting that Hamilton's p00 isn't made of gold... It is becoming tiresome to have any kind of chat with you

He never mentioned the incident between Vettel and Stroll.


I didn't say he did. Please read again

You speculated why he brought it up, I'm surprised if that was his reasoning why he didn't elaborate even more, also undone seat belts didn't cause the crash.

Who said that seat belts caused ANY crash?

It's clear what I meant, speculating of course as we are not in their heads.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:58 am 
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Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Grosjean should worry about his own driving and maybe raise a few complaints against himself.

He's an absolute turd of a driver and all he does is complain.
Whether he is or is not what you write, the fact is that he is a director of the Grand Prix Drivers Association. So he is supposed to bring problems forward, and discuss them.

I applaud the fact that the briefing can be seen by the fans; the rules and how they are explained are more important than any penalties handed out. Fans should take an interest in the rules, we can see that here after every race incident.


Instead of trying to run GPDA, he should focus on his pathetic driving and not play cop.
He isn't playing copper, he is a director of the GPDA. Unless he raises uncertainty about safety issues, he isn't doing that particular job well. What you think about his driving is your opinion. Mine is that there's a reason why he is in F1 and the two of us are not.

Were there other candidates for the job of director of the GPDA? Or were all the other driver members happy to have Romain as their spokesperson and the director of their association?


I was wondering whether the stewards are present in the drivers' briefing. If so, I would expect them to take an active part in answering questions about rule clarification. They will after all be applying them during the race.


BIB
That's another illustration that the FIA are not doing it right.

For consistency they have to write the rules keeping in mind how they are going to apply the rules and be fair and consistent. Having different Stewards at each race is another source of problems.

Of course by applying (or not applying) the rules inconsistently, they can try to keep the Championships alive for longer.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:49 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
He isn't playing copper, he is a director of the GPDA. Unless he raises uncertainty about safety issues, he isn't doing that particular job well. What you think about his driving is your opinion. Mine is that there's a reason why he is in F1 and the two of us are not.

Were there other candidates for the job of director of the GPDA? Or were all the other driver members happy to have Romain as their spokesperson and the director of their association?


I was wondering whether the stewards are present in the drivers' briefing. If so, I would expect them to take an active part in answering questions about rule clarification. They will after all be applying them during the race.


BIB
That's another illustration that the FIA are not doing it right.

For consistency they have to write the rules keeping in mind how they are going to apply the rules and be fair and consistent. Having different Stewards at each race is another source of problems.

Of course by applying (or not applying) the rules inconsistently, they can try to keep the Championships alive for longer.
I'm not sure whether different teams are a source of inconsistency. There are different umpires in a tennis tournament, aren't there?

To my mind, the rules are far from clear, and the stewards and race control have to make the best job of it. I have to add I don't know whether they have any say in efforts to rewrite or clarify the rules, though it is often Mr Whiting who offers clarification.

Judging by his answer to the query about undoing safety belts on the slow down lap after the race is finished, I would say I'm rather surprised he doesn't refer to his documentation, just as I would expect a driver - and especially a director of the GPDA - to have consulted them and point out where there is uncertainty about them.
In this particular case, I would ask whether "at all times during a competition" means during the race itself, but not after crossing the finish line, or at all times when the car as being driven. Because the only rule I found concerning this is found in Appendix L and reads:
Quote:
"Safety Belts
Drivers must be properly restrained in their seat by safety belts in conformity with the specifications of Appendix J for the vehicle concerned, at all times during a competition when it is mobile on a circuit, pit lane, special stage or competition course."

Clearly (or is it?), if the slow down lap is part of the competition, then even loosening the straps is against the rules.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:50 am 
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Fiki wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
He isn't playing copper, he is a director of the GPDA. Unless he raises uncertainty about safety issues, he isn't doing that particular job well. What you think about his driving is your opinion. Mine is that there's a reason why he is in F1 and the two of us are not.

Were there other candidates for the job of director of the GPDA? Or were all the other driver members happy to have Romain as their spokesperson and the director of their association?


I was wondering whether the stewards are present in the drivers' briefing. If so, I would expect them to take an active part in answering questions about rule clarification. They will after all be applying them during the race.


BIB
That's another illustration that the FIA are not doing it right.

For consistency they have to write the rules keeping in mind how they are going to apply the rules and be fair and consistent. Having different Stewards at each race is another source of problems.

Of course by applying (or not applying) the rules inconsistently, they can try to keep the Championships alive for longer.
I'm not sure whether different teams are a source of inconsistency. There are different umpires in a tennis tournament, aren't there?

To my mind, the rules are far from clear, and the stewards and race control have to make the best job of it. I have to add I don't know whether they have any say in efforts to rewrite or clarify the rules, though it is often Mr Whiting who offers clarification.

Judging by his answer to the query about undoing safety belts on the slow down lap after the race is finished, I would say I'm rather surprised he doesn't refer to his documentation, just as I would expect a driver - and especially a director of the GPDA - to have consulted them and point out where there is uncertainty about them.
In this particular case, I would ask whether "at all times during a competition" means during the race itself, but not after crossing the finish line, or at all times when the car as being driven. Because the only rule I found concerning this is found in Appendix L and reads:
Quote:
"Safety Belts
Drivers must be properly restrained in their seat by safety belts in conformity with the specifications of Appendix J for the vehicle concerned, at all times during a competition when it is mobile on a circuit, pit lane, special stage or competition course."

Clearly (or is it?), if the slow down lap is part of the competition, then even loosening the straps is against the rules.


That's why I mentioned writing the rules with applying the rules in mind.

They need rules that can be applied and they need to train people to apply the rules consistently.

Judging in almost all sports requires judgement from the referees. Sometimes they could automate things - like hawkeye in Tennis, or the net sensor when serving, but they still have to train referees to try to keep judgements consistent.

That's assuming that want to run F1 as a sport, and run it fairly.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:12 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
That's why I mentioned writing the rules with applying the rules in mind.

They need rules that can be applied and they need to train people to apply the rules consistently.

Judging in almost all sports requires judgement from the referees. Sometimes they could automate things - like hawkeye in Tennis, or the net sensor when serving, but they still have to train referees to try to keep judgements consistent.

That's assuming that want to run F1 as a sport, and run it fairly.

Formula 1 is very different in this regard to Tennis. Because of the danger of the sport it means it has many rules in place solely due to purposes of safety.

Hamilton undoing his seatbelt after the end of the race to wave to the fans has no bearing on the race result, whereas an incorrect line call in Tennis could award a Grand Slam to the wrong player.

Hawkeye is like jumping a start, using too much fuel, having an underweight car.

Giving a sporting penalty for undoing the seatbelt after the race is over would be like stripping Nadal of his Wimbledon trophy because he climbed up into the Royal Box after winning.

And that is why Vettel wasn't punished for his steering wheel offense, the race was over. During race conditions it would be a different matter - because a team could pull a Singapore 2008, crash a car, take away the steering wheel meaning the safety is out for much longer as the marshals try to move the car. After the race? It makes no difference to the race result.

The drivers should be bollocked, or maybe even fined, if they do something unsafe after the race has finished, but it is important to differentiate between sporting rules and safety rules.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
That's why I mentioned writing the rules with applying the rules in mind.

They need rules that can be applied and they need to train people to apply the rules consistently.

Judging in almost all sports requires judgement from the referees. Sometimes they could automate things - like hawkeye in Tennis, or the net sensor when serving, but they still have to train referees to try to keep judgements consistent.

That's assuming that want to run F1 as a sport, and run it fairly.

Formula 1 is very different in this regard to Tennis. Because of the danger of the sport it means it has many rules in place solely due to purposes of safety.

Hamilton undoing his seatbelt after the end of the race to wave to the fans has no bearing on the race result, whereas an incorrect line call in Tennis could award a Grand Slam to the wrong player.

Hawkeye is like jumping a start, using too much fuel, having an underweight car.

Giving a sporting penalty for undoing the seatbelt after the race is over would be like stripping Nadal of his Wimbledon trophy because he climbed up into the Royal Box after winning.

And that is why Vettel wasn't punished for his steering wheel offense, the race was over. During race conditions it would be a different matter - because a team could pull a Singapore 2008, crash a car, take away the steering wheel meaning the safety is out for much longer as the marshals try to move the car. After the race? It makes no difference to the race result.

The drivers should be bollocked, or maybe even fined, if they do something unsafe after the race has finished, but it is important to differentiate between sporting rules and safety rules.


Yet they gave Vettel a reprimand (3 of which awards a grid penalty) for missing the anthem. A sporting penalty for something which I feel is comparable to what you are saying here.

I think comparing F1 to any other sport is futile.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
That's why I mentioned writing the rules with applying the rules in mind.

They need rules that can be applied and they need to train people to apply the rules consistently.

Judging in almost all sports requires judgement from the referees. Sometimes they could automate things - like hawkeye in Tennis, or the net sensor when serving, but they still have to train referees to try to keep judgements consistent.

That's assuming that want to run F1 as a sport, and run it fairly.

Formula 1 is very different in this regard to Tennis. Because of the danger of the sport it means it has many rules in place solely due to purposes of safety.

Hamilton undoing his seatbelt after the end of the race to wave to the fans has no bearing on the race result, whereas an incorrect line call in Tennis could award a Grand Slam to the wrong player.

Hawkeye is like jumping a start, using too much fuel, having an underweight car.

Giving a sporting penalty for undoing the seatbelt after the race is over would be like stripping Nadal of his Wimbledon trophy because he climbed up into the Royal Box after winning.

And that is why Vettel wasn't punished for his steering wheel offense, the race was over. During race conditions it would be a different matter - because a team could pull a Singapore 2008, crash a car, take away the steering wheel meaning the safety is out for much longer as the marshals try to move the car. After the race? It makes no difference to the race result.

The drivers should be bollocked, or maybe even fined, if they do something unsafe after the race has finished, but it is important to differentiate between sporting rules and safety rules.


Yet they gave Vettel a reprimand (3 of which awards a grid penalty) for missing the anthem. A sporting penalty for something which I feel is comparable to what you are saying here.

I think comparing F1 to any other sport is futile.


Not really. A reprimand by itself is not a sporting penalty. The accumulation of three reprimands results in one. And reprimands vary; Vettel's previous one was for crossing the white line at the pit exit in Monaco I think, which would be under the sporting side.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Yet they gave Vettel a reprimand (3 of which awards a grid penalty) for missing the anthem. A sporting penalty for something which I feel is comparable to what you are saying here.

I think comparing F1 to any other sport is futile.

And most people agreed that was a stupid decision.

However, as I mentioned at the time, I think it was to set a precedent about how seriously they view the national anthem in case any drivers decide to take a knee in Austin. I think drivers have missed it before and not been penalised so severely.


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