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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 pm 
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mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:15 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Maybe... because they are nevertheless still not alone on the track and... well, the post that you are replying to just stated it?
Honestly, but do you actually have a driving licence and drive a car sometimes?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:21 am 
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On Facebook, I just saw the crash from Grosjean's car. It's completely Stroll's fault. All of a sudden, he lets his car moving straight instead of continuing with the turn.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Funny how after the Hamilton video emerged, the goalpost moved so that in addition to just passing you also need to do it at a certain speed and location on track for it to be a no-no.

I saw Hamilton pull alongside to congratulate him when it actually happened

But he also passed him, which according to you until recently was something you're not supposed to do.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Oh for crying out loud.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE ARE CARS WITH DIFFERENT SPEEDS OUT THERE AND THEY CAN AND WILL BE PASSED.

How can you possibly NOT understand this?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:33 am 
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Prema wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
F1nut wrote:
:thumbdown: Watch out now......., :x for you just insulted a man I have watched since 1999, first on Speedvision then later on Speed Channel, SpeedTV and multiple iterations until Fox finally canned it. Steve Matchett has forgotten more about F1 that you sir will ever know and along with Bob Varsha and David Hobbs he was 1/3 of the absolute finest F1 broadcast team ever fielded in the USA.

Ya folks around here jump to conclusions based on your bias and driver preferences going at each other hammer and tongs and IHMO would argue with fence post over the cost of a fence staple. The sad part is very few of ya ever bother to read threads before posting which make most of ya look like idiots stickin your foot in your own mouths, as ya just did, impugning the reputation of a man that has done more for fans of F1 here in the states than many so called broadcasters ever could - ya could learn a lot from him for he is an honorable man.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

...except he didn't impugn Matchett's reputation, just said he didn't care for his opinion. So talking of not even bothering to read...


Right, and the particular reason that I couldn't care less about his opinion in the first place... the name "Steve Matchett" was telling just nothing to me. I said not a single word about the man himself. And even if I did know him, I didn't have to care about his opinion since it was brought in in such a wrong manner, those kind of argumentations that to kill the discussion, "He said so, period". That was the actual meaning of why I stated I couldn't care less about. It was not the man himself, but him being used as such kind of argument. Yes, bring him in, fine, but then be able/ready to discuss his opinion, not go hiding behind his back, using his name as a shield. The ones who are insulting the man are rather those who are using him in that blank way and then get aggressively launching personal attacks from that hideaway.


Here I'll put it below for ya both.........

Prema wrote:
I couldn't care less about Steve Machett really.


Who is it that can't read, now?

ps - sort of makes me wonder what kind of person is it that removes quotes, in order to fabricate things that weren't there to begin with......, probably the same sort of person that knows what he said, but goes along with the fabrication in order to insult others that got their goat to begin with....


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:31 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Having watched all the available footage now, it's hard to place the blame anywhere but on Stroll's shoulders, he does wash out to the right and that is what causes it.

If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.


Is it actually against the rules to hitch a lift back?

I thought they tried to ban it. But it's the kind of thing I'd expect Liberty Media to love seeing


No they didn't Webber got a penalty for crossing the track whilst the race was on, not because of the lift.

Oh well that's good. I do remember the Alonso/Webber one was done really awkwardly

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:36 am 
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F1nut wrote:
Prema wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
F1nut wrote:
:thumbdown: Watch out now......., :x for you just insulted a man I have watched since 1999, first on Speedvision then later on Speed Channel, SpeedTV and multiple iterations until Fox finally canned it. Steve Matchett has forgotten more about F1 that you sir will ever know and along with Bob Varsha and David Hobbs he was 1/3 of the absolute finest F1 broadcast team ever fielded in the USA.

Ya folks around here jump to conclusions based on your bias and driver preferences going at each other hammer and tongs and IHMO would argue with fence post over the cost of a fence staple. The sad part is very few of ya ever bother to read threads before posting which make most of ya look like idiots stickin your foot in your own mouths, as ya just did, impugning the reputation of a man that has done more for fans of F1 here in the states than many so called broadcasters ever could - ya could learn a lot from him for he is an honorable man.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

...except he didn't impugn Matchett's reputation, just said he didn't care for his opinion. So talking of not even bothering to read...


Right, and the particular reason that I couldn't care less about his opinion in the first place... the name "Steve Matchett" was telling just nothing to me. I said not a single word about the man himself. And even if I did know him, I didn't have to care about his opinion since it was brought in in such a wrong manner, those kind of argumentations that to kill the discussion, "He said so, period". That was the actual meaning of why I stated I couldn't care less about. It was not the man himself, but him being used as such kind of argument. Yes, bring him in, fine, but then be able/ready to discuss his opinion, not go hiding behind his back, using his name as a shield. The ones who are insulting the man are rather those who are using him in that blank way and then get aggressively launching personal attacks from that hideaway.


Here I'll put it below for ya both.........

Prema wrote:
I couldn't care less about Steve Machett really.


Who is it that can't read, now?

ps - sort of makes me wonder what kind of person is it that removes quotes, in order to fabricate things that weren't there to begin with......, probably the same sort of person that knows what he said, but goes along with the fabrication in order to insult others that got their goat to begin with....


Sir, I really have no idea what is it that you are ranting about now...
(and I still couldn't care less about your hero, you are not making it any easier for me)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:44 am 
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F1nut wrote:
Prema wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
F1nut wrote:
:thumbdown: Watch out now......., :x for you just insulted a man I have watched since 1999, first on Speedvision then later on Speed Channel, SpeedTV and multiple iterations until Fox finally canned it. Steve Matchett has forgotten more about F1 that you sir will ever know and along with Bob Varsha and David Hobbs he was 1/3 of the absolute finest F1 broadcast team ever fielded in the USA.

Ya folks around here jump to conclusions based on your bias and driver preferences going at each other hammer and tongs and IHMO would argue with fence post over the cost of a fence staple. The sad part is very few of ya ever bother to read threads before posting which make most of ya look like idiots stickin your foot in your own mouths, as ya just did, impugning the reputation of a man that has done more for fans of F1 here in the states than many so called broadcasters ever could - ya could learn a lot from him for he is an honorable man.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

...except he didn't impugn Matchett's reputation, just said he didn't care for his opinion. So talking of not even bothering to read...


Right, and the particular reason that I couldn't care less about his opinion in the first place... the name "Steve Matchett" was telling just nothing to me. I said not a single word about the man himself. And even if I did know him, I didn't have to care about his opinion since it was brought in in such a wrong manner, those kind of argumentations that to kill the discussion, "He said so, period". That was the actual meaning of why I stated I couldn't care less about. It was not the man himself, but him being used as such kind of argument. Yes, bring him in, fine, but then be able/ready to discuss his opinion, not go hiding behind his back, using his name as a shield. The ones who are insulting the man are rather those who are using him in that blank way and then get aggressively launching personal attacks from that hideaway.


Here I'll put it below for ya both.........

Prema wrote:
I couldn't care less about Steve Machett really.


Who is it that can't read, now?

ps - sort of makes me wonder what kind of person is it that removes quotes, in order to fabricate things that weren't there to begin with......, probably the same sort of person that knows what he said, but goes along with the fabrication in order to insult others that got their goat to begin with....

perhaps, before you criticise others, you might want to learn English properly. Not caring less about a person is not by any stretch of the imagination the same as impugning his reputation. Nor is it insulting them. Yet even though this has been pointed out to you, you persist in making false claims. So keep digging this hole, but all it does it make you look crass and uneducated.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:19 pm 
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I managed to buy a book by Mr Matchett. It turned out to be the wrong one. But, as I understand, the "right" book also leaves me wanting on the information I seek.

None of this whole silly discussion brings us closer to the answer whether Mr Matchett's view, that it was illegal to take a wrecked car's steering wheel with him after a race, is correct or incorrect. And since the stewards haven't enlightened us, because they weren't warned about a possible post-race infraction, why continue this silly fight?
Like Mr Matchett, my initial reaction was that taking the steering wheel was against the rules. Rereading the rules left me unconvinced though. Why not ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing? And yes, I know that I recently pointed out an inconsistency between what Mr Whiting explained, and what I could find in the rules. Still their view would be worth considering, wouldn't it?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I managed to buy a book by Mr Matchett. It turned out to be the wrong one. But, as I understand, the "right" book also leaves me wanting on the information I seek.

None of this whole silly discussion brings us closer to the answer whether Mr Matchett's view, that it was illegal to take a wrecked car's steering wheel with him after a race, is correct or incorrect. And since the stewards haven't enlightened us, because they weren't warned about a possible post-race infraction, why continue this silly fight?
Like Mr Matchett, my initial reaction was that taking the steering wheel was against the rules. Rereading the rules left me unconvinced though. Why not ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing? And yes, I know that I recently pointed out an inconsistency between what Mr Whiting explained, and what I could find in the rules. Still their view would be worth considering, wouldn't it?


Of course there is nothing wrong with taking their view in consideration... when those were given for due consideration, and not used as an argument-stick that to beat people over their heads with and to intimidate. Example:

Quote:
Again, Steve Machett o USA television said this was a clear infraction of FIA regulations. You think he doesnt know the regulations? Seriously? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Be it Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed, and not just some mortal there over in the USA that I haven't heard for, if some adherents of those uses them to go after me to shut me down with their names, I would let them know that I couldn't care less about those... and they can go crying out loudly "offense! offense! fool! infidel!" as much as they like.
(can't help, but I got a kind of allergy there, some real bad life experience)


Last edited by Prema on Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I managed to buy a book by Mr Matchett. It turned out to be the wrong one. But, as I understand, the "right" book also leaves me wanting on the information I seek.

None of this whole silly discussion brings us closer to the answer whether Mr Matchett's view, that it was illegal to take a wrecked car's steering wheel with him after a race, is correct or incorrect. And since the stewards haven't enlightened us, because they weren't warned about a possible post-race infraction, why continue this silly fight?
Like Mr Matchett, my initial reaction was that taking the steering wheel was against the rules. Rereading the rules left me unconvinced though. Why not ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing? And yes, I know that I recently pointed out an inconsistency between what Mr Whiting explained, and what I could find in the rules. Still their view would be worth considering, wouldn't it?


Well how's The Telegraph's opinion, it's a British paper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/10/01/sebastian-vettel-involved-bizarre-crash-malaysian-grand-prix/

exerpt: Yesterday’s incident became even more controversial after Vettel removed his steering wheel from his car – which you are not allowed to do – and hitched a ride home on the sidepod of Pascal Wehrlein’s Sauber.


How does one go about "ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing" ? (like I would really want more issues for Vettel and Ferrari, which I don't, as I'd much rather see the season unfold "on the track" as the Baku shunt appears to have had adverse ripples for some in the F1 community even still, as I found out today when I read Buxton's Blog)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:30 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I managed to buy a book by Mr Matchett. It turned out to be the wrong one. But, as I understand, the "right" book also leaves me wanting on the information I seek.

None of this whole silly discussion brings us closer to the answer whether Mr Matchett's view, that it was illegal to take a wrecked car's steering wheel with him after a race, is correct or incorrect. And since the stewards haven't enlightened us, because they weren't warned about a possible post-race infraction, why continue this silly fight?
Like Mr Matchett, my initial reaction was that taking the steering wheel was against the rules. Rereading the rules left me unconvinced though. Why not ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing? And yes, I know that I recently pointed out an inconsistency between what Mr Whiting explained, and what I could find in the rules. Still their view would be worth considering, wouldn't it?


Well how's The Telegraph's opinion, it's a British paper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/10/01/sebastian-vettel-involved-bizarre-crash-malaysian-grand-prix/

exerpt: Yesterday’s incident became even more controversial after Vettel removed his steering wheel from his car – which you are not allowed to do – and hitched a ride home on the sidepod of Pascal Wehrlein’s Sauber.


How does one go about "ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing" ? (like I would really want more issues for Vettel and Ferrari, which I don't, as I'd much rather see the season unfold "on the track" as the Baku shunt appears to have had adverse ripples for some in the F1 community even still, as I found out today when I read Buxton's Blog)


It is not that unusual for correspondents to simply echo each others or just repeat what they heard around. Nothing special about that.

And look, there is no such regulation that would state "A driver is not allowed to remove the steering wheel from his car", is there? Yet this dude made such a claim.
You may think that it is just as same as the quoted 22.5, but it is not (and never mind the context). When not following the regulations implies potential penalties in such a business as F1, then the right formulation is pretty much relevant.

This is one of those classic situation when people are blindly repeating (or even interpreting, as here) some rules without even trying to think about their purpose and application. If to ask this The Telegraph expert correspondent a simple question "Why?", I believe that the answer would be a kind of... "because". Well, after all they are not the FIA stewards that to actually evaluate and make a decision if the violation of the rules was actually committed and hence punishable. Their job is rather to make their articles be interesting for the readers.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Maybe... because they are nevertheless still not alone on the track and... well, the post that you are replying to just stated it?
Honestly, but do you actually have a driving licence and drive a car sometimes?

If racing karts is not an apt comparison then I fail to see how driving a road car is either, it's actually not something I've noticed before but after a race then you are under waved flagged conditions when I raced, and it's sort of opened my eyes to the sort of undisciplined nature of it all, of course we never had the situation of drivers slowly down and pulling to the side of the track and waving to the crowd, but I still consider cars passing going around corners a bit of an eye opener.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Funny how after the Hamilton video emerged, the goalpost moved so that in addition to just passing you also need to do it at a certain speed and location on track for it to be a no-no.

I saw Hamilton pull alongside to congratulate him when it actually happened

But he also passed him, which according to you until recently was something you're not supposed to do.

If it's deemed as a yellow flag situation then no you're not supposed to pass, the race is over, but obviously this happens so I don't really know what rules are applied after the flag, it's very indisciplined like almost there are no rules for even if 2 cars crash into one another unless I guess it's a deliberate take out.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:41 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Oh for crying out loud.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE ARE CARS WITH DIFFERENT SPEEDS OUT THERE AND THEY CAN AND WILL BE PASSED.

How can you possibly NOT understand this?

No my point is should cars almost be racing one another after the flag?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Here is another very explicit rule under that same section "General Safety" that Vettel apparently was in a gross violation of:

22.11 If a driver has serious mechanical difficulties he must leave the track as soon as it is safe to do so.

But Vettel didn't. He rather took his time to examine the car and then hitched the lift by a fellow competitor and went riding on his car on the track to the paddocks. Hack, if he wanted so he could have taken a bit of a nice cool-down walk down the track too.

There is only one reasonable way to understand not only the above rule, but all the rules under that section, including the one under the diskussion 22.5. Within the context.

22.2 Save where these Sporting Regulations require otherwise, pit lane and track discipline and
safety measures will be the same for all practice sessions as for the race.


It wasn't the race anymore, the race was over. Hence it was not the situation of same safety measures being applied either. The track discipline exhibited by both Vettel and Stroll was obviously not covered by that section, and specifically by the above rule 22.11.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Maybe... because they are nevertheless still not alone on the track and... well, the post that you are replying to just stated it?
Honestly, but do you actually have a driving licence and drive a car sometimes?

If racing karts is not an apt comparison then I fail to see how driving a road car is either, it's actually not something I've noticed before but after a race then you are under waved flagged conditions when I raced, and it's sort of opened my eyes to the sort of undisciplined nature of it all, of course we never had the situation of drivers slowly down and pulling to the side of the track and waving to the crowd, but I still consider cars passing going around corners a bit of an eye opener.


What you are apparently failing in is to still not be able to understand why drivers on a cool-down lap should be looking in their mirrors... after what just has happened.

It really doesn't matter if it be racing karts or a regular driving on a road, any responsible driver wants to be aware of the traffic not only ahead of himself but also behind and around, and especially so if to suddenly change the direction of his driving or anything else that might be not anticipated by others.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Maybe... because they are nevertheless still not alone on the track and... well, the post that you are replying to just stated it?
Honestly, but do you actually have a driving licence and drive a car sometimes?

If racing karts is not an apt comparison then I fail to see how driving a road car is either, it's actually not something I've noticed before but after a race then you are under waved flagged conditions when I raced, and it's sort of opened my eyes to the sort of undisciplined nature of it all, of course we never had the situation of drivers slowly down and pulling to the side of the track and waving to the crowd, but I still consider cars passing going around corners a bit of an eye opener.


What you are apparently failing in is to still not be able to understand why drivers on a cool-down lap should be looking in their mirrors... after what just has happened.

It really doesn't matter if it be racing karts or a regular driving on a road, any responsible driver wants to be aware of the traffic not only ahead of himself but also behind and around, and especially so if to suddenly change the direction of his driving or anything else that might be not anticipated by others.

I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:22 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I managed to buy a book by Mr Matchett. It turned out to be the wrong one. But, as I understand, the "right" book also leaves me wanting on the information I seek.

None of this whole silly discussion brings us closer to the answer whether Mr Matchett's view, that it was illegal to take a wrecked car's steering wheel with him after a race, is correct or incorrect. And since the stewards haven't enlightened us, because they weren't warned about a possible post-race infraction, why continue this silly fight?
Like Mr Matchett, my initial reaction was that taking the steering wheel was against the rules. Rereading the rules left me unconvinced though. Why not ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing? And yes, I know that I recently pointed out an inconsistency between what Mr Whiting explained, and what I could find in the rules. Still their view would be worth considering, wouldn't it?


Well how's The Telegraph's opinion, it's a British paper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/10/01/sebastian-vettel-involved-bizarre-crash-malaysian-grand-prix/

exerpt: Yesterday’s incident became even more controversial after Vettel removed his steering wheel from his car – which you are not allowed to do – and hitched a ride home on the sidepod of Pascal Wehrlein’s Sauber.


How does one go about "ask the FIA to cover this in this week's driver briefing" ? (like I would really want more issues for Vettel and Ferrari, which I don't, as I'd much rather see the season unfold "on the track" as the Baku shunt appears to have had adverse ripples for some in the F1 community even still, as I found out today when I read Buxton's Blog)

I think Prema covered most of what I would reply to you rather well, so perhaps I can restrict myself to the article you linked. Whether it is a British paper or not, is irrelevant. If what it writes is right, it's right. If it is wrong, it's mistaken. What the author writes about the Singapore crash doesn't allow much hope, does it? According to him Vettel collided with Räikkönen and Verstappen. He clearly did nothing of the sort, as is clear from the footage.
The article then says that a driver is not allowed to remove the steering wheel from the car. Every F1 fan knows that it is required, in order to get out of the car. It is even part of the mandatory fitness test. What the author should have said is that the driver had to put the steering wheel back in place after getting out. Which Vettel tried to do, but failed. I would suggest it is up to the stewards to judge whether he should have kept trying until the car was ready to be picked up, or whether there is another prescribed course of action. And for any commentator to point that out.
And I can't see how Vettel could be given a penalty for his ride on the Sauber, as the author doesn't quote the relevant rule. Interestingly, he even omits to mention that 2 drivers were involved in that ride. Perhaps he doesn't care about Sauber drivers?

In short, the Telegraph offers the author's opinion, just as quite a few TV-commentators will have done. But I would rather trust the rulebook as I can read it, rather than trust a commentator, who may not have the most recent edition of the rules in his head. (Remember the 'leaving space' comment in our thread on the Singapore crash? Completely irrelevant, once you read what the rule says.)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.

Well no that's not the way it works, there has been an effort recently for stewards to not be so heavy handed and quick to hand out penalties for minor offences. It's entirely possible that an incident in which the stewards deem to be 100% the fault of one driver would go unpunished because the stewards didn't feel it warranted a penalty.

Who's to say what the stewards thought of this incident, maybe they thought it was 100% Stroll's fault, 100% Vettel's fault, 50/50, 70/30 etc. The fact that no penalty was given doesn't prove anything as to who the stewards thought was to blame, only that they didn't see it as being worthy of a penalty.

Having seen the available footage I'd say it's 100% Stroll's fault but I wouldn't penalise it. It happened after the race and it was clearly an accident with no intent, issuing a penalty that has an impact on the racing for something so trivial would just be silly.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.


I didn't mean to take part in the blame-allocating game. Just pointing out how your agenda has been so strong that you have lost a common sense by arguing the said bizarre idea of yours that drivers shouldn't be looking into their mirrors on a cool-down lap. Just because that would kind of free Stroll from any blame and hence "establish" Vettel a guilty driver by default then.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

I honestly don't see why drivers should be looking in their mirrors, the cool down lap is not a race back to the pits.


Oh for crying out loud.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE ARE CARS WITH DIFFERENT SPEEDS OUT THERE AND THEY CAN AND WILL BE PASSED.

How can you possibly NOT understand this?

No my point is should cars almost be racing one another after the flag?


But why are you so hung up on calling it "racing" or "rushing"? It was no such thing. Vettel drove at a speed very far removed from racing or rushing speed, just a faster one than Stroll.

Quote:
If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll


Stewards have gotten it wrong before and will again. Vettel did not do something unusual, Stroll did by not looking into his mirrors and veering right.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:00 am 
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NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:04 am 
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Clarky wrote:
NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.



The whole incident is an amazing exercise in changing perspective and how difficult it is to come to any definitive conclusions in apportioning blame and how easy it is to be wrong.

The footage DOES make it appear to me that it was much more Vettel's fault than Stroll's, but my confidence is SO shot that I'll leave it to YOU guys to decide. :smug:

Regardless, it remains an utterly bizarre incident.


Last edited by Invade on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am 
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Invade wrote:
Clarky wrote:
NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.



The whole incident is an amazing exercise in changing perspective and how difficult it is to come to any definitive conclusions in apportioning blame and how easy it is to be wrong.

The footage DOES make it appear to me that it was much more Vettel's fault that Stroll's, but my confidence is SO shot that I'll leave it to YOU guys to decide. :smug:

Regardless, it remains an utterly bizarre incident.

Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am 
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Clarky wrote:
NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.
I would love to, but "This video is not authorized in your location." Isn't being an F1 fan glorious?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:36 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Who's to say what the stewards thought of this incident, maybe they thought it was 100% Stroll's fault, 100% Vettel's fault, 50/50, 70/30 etc. The fact that no penalty was given doesn't prove anything as to who the stewards thought was to blame, only that they didn't see it as being worthy of a penalty.
What the stewards thought is clear from their report:
Quote:
Decision No further action.
Reason The Stewards examined video evidence.
On the approach to Turn 5 during the slow down lap after the end of the race, Car 18 (STR) was towards the middle of the track, Car 8 (GRO) was closing from behind on the inside of Car 18 and at the same time, Car 5 (VET) overtook Car 18 on the outside and in doing so, turned in slightly towards the apex of Turn 5. Simultaneously Car 18 was moving slight away from the apex. This resulted in contact between the left rear tyre of Car 5 and the right front tyre of Car 18.
The Stewards consider that no driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action.
The Stewards also consider that even though the race has ended, caution still needs to be exercised by all drivers on the slow down lap.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:38 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
Invade wrote:
Clarky wrote:
NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.



The whole incident is an amazing exercise in changing perspective and how difficult it is to come to any definitive conclusions in apportioning blame and how easy it is to be wrong.

The footage DOES make it appear to me that it was much more Vettel's fault that Stroll's, but my confidence is SO shot that I'll leave it to YOU guys to decide. :smug:

Regardless, it remains an utterly bizarre incident.

Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.



Maybe - but more importantly: I can't help but read your message in an "Angry Pirate" accent, including adlibbed "yarrghs".


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 am 
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mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:47 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Who's to say what the stewards thought of this incident, maybe they thought it was 100% Stroll's fault, 100% Vettel's fault, 50/50, 70/30 etc. The fact that no penalty was given doesn't prove anything as to who the stewards thought was to blame, only that they didn't see it as being worthy of a penalty.
What the stewards thought is clear from their report:
Quote:
Decision No further action.
Reason The Stewards examined video evidence.
On the approach to Turn 5 during the slow down lap after the end of the race, Car 18 (STR) was towards the middle of the track, Car 8 (GRO) was closing from behind on the inside of Car 18 and at the same time, Car 5 (VET) overtook Car 18 on the outside and in doing so, turned in slightly towards the apex of Turn 5. Simultaneously Car 18 was moving slight away from the apex. This resulted in contact between the left rear tyre of Car 5 and the right front tyre of Car 18.
The Stewards consider that no driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action.
The Stewards also consider that even though the race has ended, caution still needs to be exercised by all drivers on the slow down lap.

Im shocked if the stewards did not have Stroll's onboard footage.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:19 am 
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Clarky wrote:
mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


Put it this way: it is a left-turn corner.

Couldn't see this footage, but generally speaking a footage from the camera fixed on the car may give a misleading impression as of the directions and what goes towards what. Loke, when the car spins and you look the on-board camera footage you'd think that the car is fixed in one place and the surrounding is spinning.

Best to look the footage from the camera outside of that local system. There one can have more accurate sense of which car is turning into which. Like here, from 0:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWXUZf74grQ


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:23 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
Invade wrote:
Clarky wrote:
NEW FOOTAGE - Onboard Stroll's car.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... h-released

Make your own conclusions but its clear.



The whole incident is an amazing exercise in changing perspective and how difficult it is to come to any definitive conclusions in apportioning blame and how easy it is to be wrong.

The footage DOES make it appear to me that it was much more Vettel's fault that Stroll's, but my confidence is SO shot that I'll leave it to YOU guys to decide. :smug:

Regardless, it remains an utterly bizarre incident.

Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


What Vettel was doing was what everybody was doing but Stroll: picking the rubber and holding that line. Stroll wasn't doing that, driving rather inside, then it apparently klicked in his mind that he should be doing it too, and he went for it towards the middle of the corner.. Vettel was there.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:26 am 
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Watching some of those clips, which is the first time I have, what jumps out at me as being strange, is how far Vettel drove after the accident before pulling off. To his right was a large run off, with access road, to his left a series of tight bends, and in his mirror a rear mounted spare wheel?

Not looking for any CT's here, just feel that instinct would be to move into the protected area with as little driving as possible, not meander around the track then stop at some random spot.

Why would he do that


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:36 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


But in a left-hand corner you can still steer left and drift to the right.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:10 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:15 am 
Prema wrote:
Clarky wrote:
mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


Put it this way: it is a left-turn corner.

Couldn't see this footage, but generally speaking a footage from the camera fixed on the car may give a misleading impression as of the directions and what goes towards what. Loke, when the car spins and you look the on-board camera footage you'd think that the car is fixed in one place and the surrounding is spinning.

Best to look the footage from the camera outside of that local system. There one can have more accurate sense of which car is turning into which. Like here, from 0:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWXUZf74grQ


I completely disagree with that, having a shot from a moving car that moves both directionaly (left/right) and forwardly (closer/further away) can be very inaccurate and once you watch Strolls on board you will see that. Having a shot from a fixed point removes a lot of variables, I've never heard anybody question the accuracy of the on board - the problem you have with it is that you don't see what's to the side or behind. But the bit you do see is completely accurate.


Last edited by lamo on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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