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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
That is Vettels part in it though, why hug a car so closely on the slow down lap when you have three cars in close proximity all at varying speeds. If Stroll had maintained the same trajectory, Vettel would have passed within less than half a car width of him with Vettel still closing him off a bit. Why close into a driver you are 2-3 car widths away from, down to half a car width through a corner.

Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.

Thus said Stroll, with his vast experience?

You ever watched the junior racing you can get the most idiotic racing, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

I'm struggling to find the Stroll quote you're referring to, help me out?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
That is Vettels part in it though, why hug a car so closely on the slow down lap when you have three cars in close proximity all at varying speeds. If Stroll had maintained the same trajectory, Vettel would have passed within less than half a car width of him with Vettel still closing him off a bit. Why close into a driver you are 2-3 car widths away from, down to half a car width through a corner.

Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.

Thus said Stroll, with his vast experience?

You ever watched the junior racing you can get the most idiotic racing, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

I'm struggling to find the Stroll quote you're referring to, help me out?

I think it's the podcast that Will Buxton does.

Found it, go to 9:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkarb-pLZjM

"That's never happened to me before, weird"

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually feel that Vettel would have got some dispensation if he had been 100% innocent.

You can make the case that the "innocent" driver still had some % of the fault, in overwhelming majority of F1 incidents that have happen over the years.

Take the Bahrain 2016 incident between Bottas and Hamilton for example: Did Hamilton (in the title fight, nonetheless!) need to take the corner that narrowly with Bottas sticking a good portion of his car alongside on the turn? Probably not, and had Hamilton taken a wider turn, the incident would not have happen. But this does not mean that it wasnt mainly Bottas' fault, and in fact, the stewards punished Bottas.

I think you can't relate what happens in a race to what happens after the race when the drivers are not supposed to be racing, also in the comparison you make, Bottas the driver behind, got penalised, Vettel was also the driver behind and I think this is were a level of culpability can be aimed at Vettel.

No, I`m NOT comparing the 2 incidents like for like, the point I`m trying to make is that in most incidents, there was always something that the driver "less at fault" could have done differently for the incident to be avoided. But that does not make them responsible (Vettel in this case) for not anticipating before hand what the driver predominantly at fault would do (Stroll in this case)... race conditions or not, behind or actually just in front when the collision happen, what difference does it make?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:11 am 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually feel that Vettel would have got some dispensation if he had been 100% innocent.

You can make the case that the "innocent" driver still had some % of the fault, in overwhelming majority of F1 incidents that have happen over the years.

Take the Bahrain 2016 incident between Bottas and Hamilton for example: Did Hamilton (in the title fight, nonetheless!) need to take the corner that narrowly with Bottas sticking a good portion of his car alongside on the turn? Probably not, and had Hamilton taken a wider turn, the incident would not have happen. But this does not mean that it wasnt mainly Bottas' fault, and in fact, the stewards punished Bottas.

I think you can't relate what happens in a race to what happens after the race when the drivers are not supposed to be racing, also in the comparison you make, Bottas the driver behind, got penalised, Vettel was also the driver behind and I think this is were a level of culpability can be aimed at Vettel.

No, I`m NOT comparing the 2 incidents like for like, the point I`m trying to make is that in most incidents, there was always something that the driver "less at fault" could have done differently for the incident to be avoided. But that does not make them responsible (Vettel in this case) for not anticipating before hand what the driver predominantly at fault would do (Stroll in this case)... race conditions or not, behind or actually just in front when the collision happen, what difference does it make?

Well you're coming from the side that Vettel was the victim of Stroll's clumsy driving and that he basically did nothing wrong, others will disagree, it's the end of the race and Stroll has no real reason to be looking in his mirrors. This idea that drivers are use to other cars whizzing past them going around a corner after the race is not borne out by Stroll or some ex drivers, race is over, slow down and come back into the pits in some kind of orderly fashion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:03 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Vettel drove into Stroll that's what happend. Embarrassed himself and blamed Stroll to save his face.

Probably didn't pay attention though.

He didn't drive into anyone

Absolutely correct. Stroll veered outward on Vettel, but Vettel positioned himself too closely and it was dumb luck Stroll decided to veer out at the very moment Vettel pulled up alongside.

Last race Vettel was defended by many based on the fact that the view in mirrors is rather limited and at the angle he cut across he wouldn't have seen the other 2 guys on the inside. Here, Stroll clearly had no line of site to Vettel since Vettel was coming from around the outside and even further past the blinds pot and he veered outward himself as Vettel approached and bang.

I'd chalk this one up to a racing incident, although I'd place a tad bit more on Stroll because he made a more significant move that wasn't in tune with the flow of the corner, but I bet Vettel will never again get that close on a cool down lap for the remainder of his career.


A detailed assessment if you are analysing a 'racing incident' but you are not though are you, they are NOT racing, Vettel has no reason to overtake especially on a bend. I'm with Martin Brundle on this one.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... orld-title

Drivers have been passing one another during the cool down lap for decades now. It's quite routine actually and in fact Hamilton passed Verstappen as he congratulated him on the win.


https://youtu.be/FzzgkuFfF4w?t=166

Many drivers do it every single race so it's not isolated to the top guys patting one another on the back for finishing on the podium. The cool down lap is for all intents and purposes the last go around the track in a races so for all intents and purposes, it is part of a race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.

Thus said Stroll, with his vast experience?

You ever watched the junior racing you can get the most idiotic racing, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

I'm struggling to find the Stroll quote you're referring to, help me out?

I think it's the podcast that Will Buxton does.

Found it, go to 9:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkarb-pLZjM

"That's never happened to me before, weird"

That's not quite what he said actually, but close enough and the point is still the same.

Do you think it's happened to Vettel before? He's had a long career in F1 and plenty of the idiotic racing in the junior formulae, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:50 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Vettel drove into Stroll that's what happend. Embarrassed himself and blamed Stroll to save his face.

Probably didn't pay attention though.

He didn't drive into anyone

Absolutely correct. Stroll veered outward on Vettel, but Vettel positioned himself too closely and it was dumb luck Stroll decided to veer out at the very moment Vettel pulled up alongside.

Last race Vettel was defended by many based on the fact that the view in mirrors is rather limited and at the angle he cut across he wouldn't have seen the other 2 guys on the inside. Here, Stroll clearly had no line of site to Vettel since Vettel was coming from around the outside and even further past the blinds pot and he veered outward himself as Vettel approached and bang.

I'd chalk this one up to a racing incident, although I'd place a tad bit more on Stroll because he made a more significant move that wasn't in tune with the flow of the corner, but I bet Vettel will never again get that close on a cool down lap for the remainder of his career.


A detailed assessment if you are analysing a 'racing incident' but you are not though are you, they are NOT racing, Vettel has no reason to overtake especially on a bend. I'm with Martin Brundle on this one.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... orld-title

Drivers have been passing one another during the cool down lap for decades now. It's quite routine actually and in fact Hamilton passed Verstappen as he congratulated him on the win.


https://youtu.be/FzzgkuFfF4w?t=166

Many drivers do it every single race so it's not isolated to the top guys patting one another on the back for finishing on the podium. The cool down lap is for all intents and purposes the last go around the track in a races so for all intents and purposes, it is part of a race.

Had Verstappen turned in on Hamilton he would've been lynched on this forum.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:50 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Vettel drove into Stroll that's what happend. Embarrassed himself and blamed Stroll to save his face.

Probably didn't pay attention though.

He didn't drive into anyone

Absolutely correct. Stroll veered outward on Vettel, but Vettel positioned himself too closely and it was dumb luck Stroll decided to veer out at the very moment Vettel pulled up alongside.

Last race Vettel was defended by many based on the fact that the view in mirrors is rather limited and at the angle he cut across he wouldn't have seen the other 2 guys on the inside. Here, Stroll clearly had no line of site to Vettel since Vettel was coming from around the outside and even further past the blinds pot and he veered outward himself as Vettel approached and bang.

I'd chalk this one up to a racing incident, although I'd place a tad bit more on Stroll because he made a more significant move that wasn't in tune with the flow of the corner, but I bet Vettel will never again get that close on a cool down lap for the remainder of his career.


A detailed assessment if you are analysing a 'racing incident' but you are not though are you, they are NOT racing, Vettel has no reason to overtake especially on a bend. I'm with Martin Brundle on this one.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... orld-title

Drivers have been passing one another during the cool down lap for decades now. It's quite routine actually and in fact Hamilton passed Verstappen as he congratulated him on the win.


https://youtu.be/FzzgkuFfF4w?t=166

Many drivers do it every single race so it's not isolated to the top guys patting one another on the back for finishing on the podium. The cool down lap is for all intents and purposes the last go around the track in a races so for all intents and purposes, it is part of a race.


Thanks for the clip it shows 3 things:

1) That overtakes take place, you are right.
2) That it doesn't occur on a bend.
3) That there is plenty of room between them.

I'm not saying its all SV's fault simply that its clumsy, what is annoying is that he frequently blames the other driver


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:01 am 
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From F1 Fanatic.

The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/03/v ... -reported/

You couldn't make this up.

They didn't look at it because it was not reported, yet EVERYONE could see on the live feed that he took it with him.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:03 am 
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Clarky wrote:
From F1 Fanatic.

The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/03/v ... -reported/

You couldn't make this up.

They didn't look at it because it was not reported, yet EVERYONE could see on the live feed that he took it with him.

yes that does seem a bit bizarre. The whole principle of not acting unless there's a complaint seems wrong to me. It just encourages the whining and moaning we seem to get a lot of these days


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:06 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From F1 Fanatic.

The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/03/v ... -reported/

You couldn't make this up.

They didn't look at it because it was not reported, yet EVERYONE could see on the live feed that he took it with him.

yes that does seem a bit bizarre. The whole principle of not acting unless there's a complaint seems wrong to me. It just encourages the whining and moaning we seem to get a lot of these days

I agree, there is a clear reg for this kind of thing and they have completely ignored it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:11 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From F1 Fanatic.

The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/03/v ... -reported/

You couldn't make this up.

They didn't look at it because it was not reported, yet EVERYONE could see on the live feed that he took it with him.

yes that does seem a bit bizarre. The whole principle of not acting unless there's a complaint seems wrong to me. It just encourages the whining and moaning we seem to get a lot of these days

I agree, there is a clear reg for this kind of thing and they have completely ignored it.

Just to be clear, I was talking about the whining and moaning from the teams and drivers (it was recently discussed recently in another thread, by happy coincidence). I realise that earlier post could have looked like some kind of dig but that wasn't the intention.

That said, I'm not keen on the whole penalty culture at the best of times and I don't think that warranted one, but the principle of the stewards being wholly reliant on others is frankly weird


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
That is Vettels part in it though, why hug a car so closely on the slow down lap when you have three cars in close proximity all at varying speeds. If Stroll had maintained the same trajectory, Vettel would have passed within less than half a car width of him with Vettel still closing him off a bit. Why close into a driver you are 2-3 car widths away from, down to half a car width through a corner.

Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.


Of course he says all of that in order to save himself. Doesn't make it true though.

I'm not sure you would be qualified to know that.


I've seen countless of drivers and riders pass other drivers or riders on the cooldown lap in corners.
That makes me PERFECTLY qualified to state that Stroll is talking nonsense.

It is not unusual. And it baffles me this is somehow a point of contention among racing fans.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:53 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
I'm not saying its all SV's fault simply that its clumsy, what is annoying is that he frequently blames the other driver


It is not clumsy, not looking in your mirrors before veering right is.
And he has every right to blame Stroll. Because Stroll didn't watch his mirrors when he knows drivers will come passing by on a cooldown lap.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
it's the end of the race and Stroll has no real reason to be looking in his mirrors.


Sure. The fact they're on a cooldown lap, all on different speeds and passing by left, right and center as is usual for any kind of two- or four-wheel race, that is "no real reason" to be looking in the mirrors.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:59 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
That is Vettels part in it though, why hug a car so closely on the slow down lap when you have three cars in close proximity all at varying speeds. If Stroll had maintained the same trajectory, Vettel would have passed within less than half a car width of him with Vettel still closing him off a bit. Why close into a driver you are 2-3 car widths away from, down to half a car width through a corner.

Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.


Of course he says all of that in order to save himself. Doesn't make it true though.

I'm not sure you would be qualified to know that.


I've seen countless of drivers and riders pass other drivers or riders on the cooldown lap in corners.
That makes me PERFECTLY qualified to state that Stroll is talking nonsense.

It is not unusual. And it baffles me this is somehow a point of contention among racing fans.

I suspect it's only a point of contention because of who was involved. It seems there's a fair degree of schadenfreude going on


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.


Not entirely correct Clarky: it's the reason it went uninvestigated. Might sound like splitting hairs but saying unpunished would imply he would have been punished if they had investigated it.

It's very much possible that even in case it would have been investigated, he would have gone unpunished. His explanation made sense - if you can't fit it back to the steering column then why bother leaving it in the car?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
From F1 Fanatic.

The reason Vettel's tacking the steering wheel went unpunished.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/03/v ... -reported/

You couldn't make this up.

They didn't look at it because it was not reported, yet EVERYONE could see on the live feed that he took it with him.


One could interpret it in different ways. Like, they obviously saw it as EVERYONE else did, but didn't see ANYTHING worth of investigating. And since nobody else was bitching about it to them (NOBODY saw anything worth to complain about) so they were not under the obligation to investigate it either.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:28 pm 
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... ge-960897/

Vettel's gearbox sustained no damage and is fine to be used in Japan apparently.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually feel that Vettel would have got some dispensation if he had been 100% innocent.

You can make the case that the "innocent" driver still had some % of the fault, in overwhelming majority of F1 incidents that have happen over the years.

Take the Bahrain 2016 incident between Bottas and Hamilton for example: Did Hamilton (in the title fight, nonetheless!) need to take the corner that narrowly with Bottas sticking a good portion of his car alongside on the turn? Probably not, and had Hamilton taken a wider turn, the incident would not have happen. But this does not mean that it wasnt mainly Bottas' fault, and in fact, the stewards punished Bottas.

I think you can't relate what happens in a race to what happens after the race when the drivers are not supposed to be racing, also in the comparison you make, Bottas the driver behind, got penalised, Vettel was also the driver behind and I think this is were a level of culpability can be aimed at Vettel.

No, I`m NOT comparing the 2 incidents like for like, the point I`m trying to make is that in most incidents, there was always something that the driver "less at fault" could have done differently for the incident to be avoided. But that does not make them responsible (Vettel in this case) for not anticipating before hand what the driver predominantly at fault would do (Stroll in this case)... race conditions or not, behind or actually just in front when the collision happen, what difference does it make?

It wasn't in a race situation and Stroll's not really expecting a car to be passing him going around a corner and going a fair bit faster at that.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thus said Stroll, with his vast experience?

You ever watched the junior racing you can get the most idiotic racing, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

I'm struggling to find the Stroll quote you're referring to, help me out?

I think it's the podcast that Will Buxton does.

Found it, go to 9:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkarb-pLZjM

"That's never happened to me before, weird"

That's not quite what he said actually, but close enough and the point is still the same.

Do you think it's happened to Vettel before? He's had a long career in F1 and plenty of the idiotic racing in the junior formulae, yet not once had he experienced something like that.

In another interview was a bit more specific and he said it was like Vettel was still racing.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
It wasn't in a race situation and Stroll's not really expecting a car to be passing him going around a corner and going a fair bit faster at that.


For the umpteenth time: the fact that he didn't expect a faster car to be coming by on the cooldown lap is fully down to him as it is nothing even remotely remarkable.

Quote:
In another interview was a bit more specific and he said it was like Vettel was still racing.


Well, we've seen Vettel's onboard and clearly he's going a heck of a lot slower than he would be if he were still racing.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Absolutely correct. Stroll veered outward on Vettel, but Vettel positioned himself too closely and it was dumb luck Stroll decided to veer out at the very moment Vettel pulled up alongside.

Last race Vettel was defended by many based on the fact that the view in mirrors is rather limited and at the angle he cut across he wouldn't have seen the other 2 guys on the inside. Here, Stroll clearly had no line of site to Vettel since Vettel was coming from around the outside and even further past the blinds pot and he veered outward himself as Vettel approached and bang.

I'd chalk this one up to a racing incident, although I'd place a tad bit more on Stroll because he made a more significant move that wasn't in tune with the flow of the corner, but I bet Vettel will never again get that close on a cool down lap for the remainder of his career.


A detailed assessment if you are analysing a 'racing incident' but you are not though are you, they are NOT racing, Vettel has no reason to overtake especially on a bend. I'm with Martin Brundle on this one.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... orld-title

Drivers have been passing one another during the cool down lap for decades now. It's quite routine actually and in fact Hamilton passed Verstappen as he congratulated him on the win.


https://youtu.be/FzzgkuFfF4w?t=166

Many drivers do it every single race so it's not isolated to the top guys patting one another on the back for finishing on the podium. The cool down lap is for all intents and purposes the last go around the track in a races so for all intents and purposes, it is part of a race.

Had Verstappen turned in on Hamilton he would've been lynched on this forum.

Hamilton pulled alongside at a much slower speed difference so there would have been more time for either driver to react, also it was on a straight with both drivers going slowly, Stroll was going slowly, Vettel was not in comparison.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Absolutely correct. Stroll veered outward on Vettel, but Vettel positioned himself too closely and it was dumb luck Stroll decided to veer out at the very moment Vettel pulled up alongside.

Last race Vettel was defended by many based on the fact that the view in mirrors is rather limited and at the angle he cut across he wouldn't have seen the other 2 guys on the inside. Here, Stroll clearly had no line of site to Vettel since Vettel was coming from around the outside and even further past the blinds pot and he veered outward himself as Vettel approached and bang.

I'd chalk this one up to a racing incident, although I'd place a tad bit more on Stroll because he made a more significant move that wasn't in tune with the flow of the corner, but I bet Vettel will never again get that close on a cool down lap for the remainder of his career.


A detailed assessment if you are analysing a 'racing incident' but you are not though are you, they are NOT racing, Vettel has no reason to overtake especially on a bend. I'm with Martin Brundle on this one.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... orld-title

Drivers have been passing one another during the cool down lap for decades now. It's quite routine actually and in fact Hamilton passed Verstappen as he congratulated him on the win.


https://youtu.be/FzzgkuFfF4w?t=166

Many drivers do it every single race so it's not isolated to the top guys patting one another on the back for finishing on the podium. The cool down lap is for all intents and purposes the last go around the track in a races so for all intents and purposes, it is part of a race.


Thanks for the clip it shows 3 things:

1) That overtakes take place, you are right.
2) That it doesn't occur on a bend.
3) That there is plenty of room between them.

I'm not saying its all SV's fault simply that its clumsy, what is annoying is that he frequently blames the other driver

The first 2 points I also brought forward, that I was aware that drivers do this but I questioned whether they do it on bends, the 3rd point would be more akin to what Stroll said that it was like Vettel was still racing.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:56 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
That is Vettels part in it though, why hug a car so closely on the slow down lap when you have three cars in close proximity all at varying speeds. If Stroll had maintained the same trajectory, Vettel would have passed within less than half a car width of him with Vettel still closing him off a bit. Why close into a driver you are 2-3 car widths away from, down to half a car width through a corner.

Stroll himself said that it was a very unusual thing to do, he has never had a driver do that to him after the race has finished, he clearly wasn't expecting it.


Of course he says all of that in order to save himself. Doesn't make it true though.

I'm not sure you would be qualified to know that.


I've seen countless of drivers and riders pass other drivers or riders on the cooldown lap in corners.
That makes me PERFECTLY qualified to state that Stroll is talking nonsense.

It is not unusual. And it baffles me this is somehow a point of contention among racing fans.

Do they go past as fast and as close as Vettel?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:59 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
it's the end of the race and Stroll has no real reason to be looking in his mirrors.


Sure. The fact they're on a cooldown lap, all on different speeds and passing by left, right and center as is usual for any kind of two- or four-wheel race, that is "no real reason" to be looking in the mirrors.

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Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/season-12-the-si ... jhMu87S8ne

Do you think that when drivers are waving to the crowd they are looking in their mirrors, Stroll obviously didn't feel the need and this is the first time that's happened to him, maybe if Vettel was going a bit slower he might have had time to react?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It wasn't in a race situation and Stroll's not really expecting a car to be passing him going around a corner and going a fair bit faster at that.


For the umpteenth time: the fact that he didn't expect a faster car to be coming by on the cooldown lap is fully down to him as it is nothing even remotely remarkable.

Quote:
In another interview was a bit more specific and he said it was like Vettel was still racing.


Well, we've seen Vettel's onboard and clearly he's going a heck of a lot slower than he would be if he were still racing.

But a fair bit faster than the cars around him.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:09 pm 
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It was a freak accident, and the stewards got it right. Just one of those things...simple as..

Thankfully Vettel's gearbox given the all clear, so no harm, no foul.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Do they go past as fast and as close as Vettel?

C'mon pokerman we've all seen drivers going past eachother all over the place on a victory lap.

Here's Alonso's onboard victory lap at Malaysia from 2007. If you look from around 2 minutes onwards in particular you can see drivers all bunch up around the next complex ahead of Alonso going through corners 2 and even 3 wide at one point.

https://youtu.be/FPpx6_cidHo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Do you think that when drivers are waving to the crowd they are looking in their mirrors


They certainly are if they are about to change direction

How is this all new for you?

Quote:
Stroll obviously didn't feel the need and this is the first time that's happened to him


Bull. He has certainly been passed on cooldown lap in corners before. The thing that hasn't happened to him yet is him changing direction without looking in his mirrors and hitting someone.

Pokerman, once again you're getting caught up in a spiral of unreasonable stubbornness. You are not new to racing, you know drivers pass each other at various speeds on all parts of the track after each and every race. They have all been doing this since at least their first single seater race and in every race after that. They know it and they know that's why they should check their mirrors if they're going to change direction.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Funny how after the Hamilton video emerged, the goalpost moved so that in addition to just passing you also need to do it at a certain speed and location on track for it to be a no-no.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him? Two weeks after Singapore I would say the same thing, that maybe Vettel can argue that he is not technically at fault. But technically, he crashed, both times.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Dash33 wrote:
Sorry, I think this is more Vettel's fault. On the slow down lap it must surely be up to the driver passing to make sure the driver in front sees him?.


How would you suggest a driver behind to do that? It's not like they can honk or flash lights.

No, this is not more Vettel's fault, it isn't his at all. Drivers know they'll be passed on the cooldown lap, that's why they look in their mirrors and that's why up until this day this was never an issue or a point of contention.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Having watched all the available footage now, it's hard to place the blame anywhere but on Stroll's shoulders, he does wash out to the right and that is what causes it.

If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Having watched all the available footage now, it's hard to place the blame anywhere but on Stroll's shoulders, he does wash out to the right and that is what causes it.

If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.


Is it actually against the rules to hitch a lift back?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Having watched all the available footage now, it's hard to place the blame anywhere but on Stroll's shoulders, he does wash out to the right and that is what causes it.

If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.


Is it actually against the rules to hitch a lift back?

I thought they tried to ban it. But it's the kind of thing I'd expect Liberty Media to love seeing

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.
My initial reaction, on seeing Vettel get on the Sauber, was also that the medical car was right there. But let's not forget that he is wearing a helmet, which restricts vision, and there's a F1-car idling close by. Even with the current engines, that makes a lot more noise than the Mercedes behind. And perhaps he felt it would be impolite to refuse the lift. You know Vettel, always the perfect gentleman. ;)

I was very glad when I read that the steering wheel issue wasn't judged by the stewards, though I felt it was perfectly defendable. Glad also, that the gearbox is undamaged. I'm hoping for an exciting end of the season.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:32 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Having watched all the available footage now, it's hard to place the blame anywhere but on Stroll's shoulders, he does wash out to the right and that is what causes it.

If I was in the Ferrari camp though, i'd be asking why Vettel was passing that close and why he felt the need to run the risk of falling foul of rules by hitching a lift back when the medical car was already on the scene, and taking the steering wheel with him too. It's all fairly minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, but with the situation as it is, doing anything that _might_ come back on you seems a bit detrimental.


Is it actually against the rules to hitch a lift back?

I thought they tried to ban it. But it's the kind of thing I'd expect Liberty Media to love seeing


No they didn't Webber got a penalty for crossing the track whilst the race was on, not because of the lift.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Do they go past as fast and as close as Vettel?

C'mon pokerman we've all seen drivers going past eachother all over the place on a victory lap.

Here's Alonso's onboard victory lap at Malaysia from 2007. If you look from around 2 minutes onwards in particular you can see drivers all bunch up around the next complex ahead of Alonso going through corners 2 and even 3 wide at one point.

https://youtu.be/FPpx6_cidHo

Fair enough I saw 1 car going past into the approach to one corner but no actual passes around the corner you mention the 3 cars go in close together but come out of the corner in the same position.

I still maintain that if you pass a car after the flag that the onus is on you expecially if this is done in a corner, unless that car has a big weave to one side, I don't think that Stroll moved that much, Vettel was too close.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Funny how after the Hamilton video emerged, the goalpost moved so that in addition to just passing you also need to do it at a certain speed and location on track for it to be a no-no.

I saw Hamilton pull alongside to congratulate him when it actually happened

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