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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:15 am 
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moby wrote:
Watching some of those clips, which is the first time I have, what jumps out at me as being strange, is how far Vettel drove after the accident before pulling off. To his right was a large run off, with access road, to his left a series of tight bends, and in his mirror a rear mounted spare wheel?

Not looking for any CT's here, just feel that instinct would be to move into the protected area with as little driving as possible, not meander around the track then stop at some random spot.

Why would he do that

Take a look

https://streamable.com/3rc1s


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:17 am 
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Stroll on board mirror -

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:20 am 
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Thanks Clarky. I can definitely see Stroll moving outwards of the corner, he also loosens steering angle a bit, and never looks right despite moving outwards.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:20 am 
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mds wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


But in a left-hand corner you can still steer left and drift to the right.



stroll is perfectly entitled to slightly change his line to pick up rubber while slowly cruising around. vettel has just again showed his rash stupid approach to the position of other cars on track. if you are passing other cars like that after the race it is YOUR responsiblilty to make sure you give adequate room to cars which may not be concentrating 100% on cars approaching in their mirrors because its after the race. they may be waving to the crowd and drift of line or whatever.

i assume by your comment you think stroll was at fault. seriously is there anything vettel has ever done that is his fault in your view. i bet you said it was hamiltons fault in baku. he should have veered out of the way so golden boy didnt hit him.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:29 am 
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moby wrote:
Watching some of those clips, which is the first time I have, what jumps out at me as being strange, is how far Vettel drove after the accident before pulling off. To his right was a large run off, with access road, to his left a series of tight bends, and in his mirror a rear mounted spare wheel?

Not looking for any CT's here, just feel that instinct would be to move into the protected area with as little driving as possible, not meander around the track then stop at some random spot.

Why would he do that

He only went on about 50-100 metres didn't he? Most of which would have been momentum.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
moby wrote:
Watching some of those clips, which is the first time I have, what jumps out at me as being strange, is how far Vettel drove after the accident before pulling off. To his right was a large run off, with access road, to his left a series of tight bends, and in his mirror a rear mounted spare wheel?

Not looking for any CT's here, just feel that instinct would be to move into the protected area with as little driving as possible, not meander around the track then stop at some random spot.

Why would he do that

He only went on about 50-100 metres didn't he? Most of which would have been momentum.



Maybe I watched a slo mo then, but there was a large tarmac runoff with a service road right along side, and it seems instinct to take it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:40 am 
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From limited vision at time of race - seemed to be Stroll's fault - but with new vision - it seems Vettell's - why did he cut across Stroll - who could do little other than perhaps take the tightest of lines - but on an in lap - why did he need to - and why didn't Seb just go a bit wider?

Still bizzare


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:44 am 
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lamo wrote:
Prema wrote:
Clarky wrote:
mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.


It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

Put it this way Stroll's steering wheel does not turn towards Vettel.


Put it this way: it is a left-turn corner.

Couldn't see this footage, but generally speaking a footage from the camera fixed on the car may give a misleading impression as of the directions and what goes towards what. Loke, when the car spins and you look the on-board camera footage you'd think that the car is fixed in one place and the surrounding is spinning.

Best to look the footage from the camera outside of that local system. There one can have more accurate sense of which car is turning into which. Like here, from 0:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWXUZf74grQ


I completely disagree with that, having a shot from a moving car that moves both directionaly (left/right) and forwardly (closer/further away) can be very inaccurate and once you watch Strolls on board you will see that. Having a shot from a fixed point removes a lot of variables, I've never heard anybody question the accuracy of the on board - the problem you have with it is that you don't see what's to the side or behind. But the bit you do see is completely accurate.


But you are not having a shot from the fixed point! Yes, it is the point that is fixed to the moving car, but that creates the illusion of the point that the shot is being taken as being "fixed". That is why you get the apparentr relativity of everything else moving and changing in the relationship to that "fixed" point. But not really how that "fixed" system itself contributed to it.

You actually just confirmed what I was saying.

The shot taken from the car behind Stroll actually reveals better what is happening with Stroll's car in terms of its position on the track and changing the directions relative to the surrounding, including Vettel's car. That is the advantage of having the outside view.

And I am not questioning the accuracy of that camera. I could show you a shot of two objects colliding and you won't have a clue which one was hitting which (the shot taken from one "fixed" point on one of those objects). That is nothing to do with "accuracy".


Last edited by Prema on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:47 am 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
stroll is perfectly entitled to slightly change his line to pick up rubber while slowly cruising around.


Nobody should be entitled to change lines without looking in the mirror.

Quote:
i assume by your comment you think stroll was at fault.


Yes. Because he didn't look his mirrors and changed line, while Vettel followed the corner radius.

Quote:
seriously is there anything vettel has ever done that is his fault in your view.


Of course. My reasoning is always based on facts, like it is here. If the facts show Vettel did something wrong, then he is in the wrong. Not that hard.

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i bet you said it was hamiltons fault in baku.


OK, how much are you putting in? Because I'm taking that bet.

It's better to keep the emotional reasoning out of it. I might be a fan, but my reasoning doesn't depend on emotion.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 pm 
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mds - but Stroll CLEARLY didn't change line - Vettel did. The one who cut across was Vettel.

and Stroll had little option to move - whereas Vettel did - it's not racing, it's coming to the finish - why get all racy?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:10 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
mds - but Stroll CLEARLY didn't change line - Vettel did. The one who cut across was Vettel.

and Stroll had little option to move - whereas Vettel did - it's not racing, it's coming to the finish - why get all racy?


What does count as "line" here?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Stroll was keeping more or less to the left and on steering wheel, CLEARLY didn't change his line - until right at the end when he realised Vettel was there and he turned away from Vettel

Others have posted video link

there was more than half the track for Seb to have driven around Stroll without contact and Stroll was within half the track moving around slowly - so what do you count as 'line'?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:21 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
mds - but Stroll CLEARLY didn't change line - Vettel did. The one who cut across was Vettel.

and Stroll had little option to move - whereas Vettel did - it's not racing, it's coming to the finish - why get all racy?

aren't you supposed to change your line in a corner? :? Surely going straight ahead when the road curves away is changing your line in all but name?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:23 pm 
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I love this video. Shows once and for all what I said.

Silly mistakes because both drivers were not paying attention. Vettel doing his usual "not my fault" just like he did with Lewis Hamilton. Funnily enough didn't react the same when it seemed Kimi had some how T Boned his car. Funny how his reaction was very different even after they had seen the replays etc.

Yet again Vettel has been involved with 3 mistakes. Perhaps pressure is getting to him or just unlucky. I can handle mistakes, I can even handle their instant reaction of blame - after all they don't see everything in that car. It's just some fans that instantly jump the band wagon. Both on-board footage shows they are both changing the line they are on but not heavily changing the steering. Both drivers not paying attention to where the other car is.

No penalty. Which is right and spot on.

We are seeing a poor pattern with Seb. This reminds me of his final year at Red Bull where he kept blaming everyone around him. His mentality changed and being outperformed by his team mate didn't help. I wonder if Kimi had been doing a better job would we have seen Seb not re-sign with Ferrari. His desire to win is high but he is making an enemy in him self yet again.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Clarky wrote:

Thanks for that. I'm glad I finally saw just how that wheel came off. None of the other angles properly showed how Vettel ended up so mangled but Stroll carried on just fine

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:47 pm 
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mds wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
stroll is perfectly entitled to slightly change his line to pick up rubber while slowly cruising around.


Nobody should be entitled to change lines without looking in the mirror.

Quote:
i assume by your comment you think stroll was at fault.


Yes. Because he didn't look his mirrors and changed line, while Vettel followed the corner radius.

Quote:
seriously is there anything vettel has ever done that is his fault in your view.


Of course. My reasoning is always based on facts, like it is here. If the facts show Vettel did something wrong, then he is in the wrong. Not that hard.

Quote:
i bet you said it was hamiltons fault in baku.


OK, how much are you putting in? Because I'm taking that bet.

It's better to keep the emotional reasoning out of it. I might be a fan, but my reasoning doesn't depend on emotion.

The leading car is entitled to put his car anywhere he wants to on the track as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd anyone off the race track. Vettel certainly wasnt crowded off the race track and Stroll certainly wasnt weaving. The only person who made an unpredictable sudden change in direction was Vettel, coming from behind. 100% his fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Zoue - but Stroll was going slowly and 'slowly' changing line - whereas Vettel changed line like he was racing on an open track without anyone there - that's the issue - even if Stroll had moved to the extreme left, they'd still probably have connected - despite more than half a track clear for Vettel to drive in


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:54 pm 
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I think both are equally at fault. Neither seem to be paying that much attention to what is happening around them, whilst One drifted out, One drifted in. And knowing how complicated these things are, they were probably both going through some post-race procedures.

In short ovals, the gist of the rule is that the race is live until the red flags are thrown (which generally happens after the winner crosses start finish line again) - and until that time you basically keep racing - or at least pay attention to what is happening. I'm sure a new rule isn't necessary, given how often this has happened, but maybe they all just need reminding to take more care.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Prema wrote:

But you are not having a shot from the fixed point! Yes, it is the point that is fixed to the moving car, but that creates the illusion of the point that the shot is being taken as being "fixed". That is why you get the apparentr relativity of everything else moving and changing in the relationship to that "fixed" point. But not really how that "fixed" system itself contributed to it.

You actually just confirmed what I was saying.

The shot taken from the car behind Stroll actually reveals better what is happening with Stroll's car in terms of its position on the track and changing the directions relative to the surrounding, including Vettel's car. That is the advantage of having the outside view.

And I am not questioning the accuracy of that camera. I could show you a shot of two objects colliding and you won't have a clue which one was hitting which (the shot taken from one "fixed" point on one of those objects). That is nothing to do with "accuracy".


The camera is fixed relative to the car is what I meant, which is what you need for accuracy. This gives a constant view of where the car exactly is, the only thing moving is the surroundings. There is nothing ambiguous about any on board, the only problem with them is you can't see everything. The only better camera angle in some circumstances is a helicopter shot from directly above.

All other camera angles are subject to more variables. Just look at the start in Singapore, from 1 or 2 angles it looks like Max is almost level with Vettel. But once you see the on boards you realise he only had his front wing level with Vettels rear tyres.

The camera view from Grosjeans car makes Strolls move seem a lot more drastic because Grosjean himself is moving his car and therefore the camera is panning to the left to go to the inside just before the impact. This visually exaggerates the movement of Strolls car.

Grosjeans on board would have been less misleading because we would see his steering inputs to confirm this. We have no reference with this front mounted camera to show where Grosjeans car is pointing or in what direction it is travelling relative to the other two cars.

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Last edited by lamo on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:09 pm 
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mds wrote:

Yes. Because he didn't look his mirrors and changed line, while Vettel followed the corner radius.



You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track. We established the track did not narrow.

Following the corner radius would be driving around the outside of the turn throughout. Vettel clearly did no do this which is evident in all three pieces of video footage.

If he had, it would be 100% Strolls fault.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.


I didn't mean to take part in the blame-allocating game. Just pointing out how your agenda has been so strong that you have lost a common sense by arguing the said bizarre idea of yours that drivers shouldn't be looking into their mirrors on a cool-down lap. Just because that would kind of free Stroll from any blame and hence "establish" Vettel a guilty driver by default then.

You seem to think I'm alone in this, I do seem to be a bit alone on here, but many F1 pundits ask the question what was Vettel doing?

I've just watched a podcast were not one of them is pointing the figure at Stroll, they even have a taped interview with a professional racing driver to give his opinion, and he says a few things but in respect to Vettel what he says is that Vettel was not actually just following the line of the corner, he was actually turning back to the apex of the corner so was in fact turning into Stroll expecting Stroll to see him and give him room.

He also opinions that Stroll might have been looking at Grosjean's car who also caught him and started to give him room on the inside and so looking in his left mirror was totally fully unaware of Vettel who let's not forget passed both Grosjean and Stroll.

Then when asked about what happens after the flag he said as a rule you just follow the car in front into the pits so that goes back to me saying why did Vettel need to be passing cars, what was the rush.

At this point I haven't got the time to find exactly were it is on a podcast which lasts over 1 hour but nevertheless it's interesting to watch in it's entirety, also bear in mind at no time have I suggested that Vettel should have been penalised for the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1C2wT_4PBo

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:26 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mds wrote:

Yes. Because he didn't look his mirrors and changed line, while Vettel followed the corner radius.



You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track. We established the track did not narrow.

Following the corner radius would be driving around the outside of the turn throughout. Vettel clearly did no do this which is evident in all three pieces of video footage.

If he had, it would be 100% Strolls fault.


Interesting that the impact was near the middle of the track while Stroll was on the inside of the track prior to the impact. And we established the track didn't narrow.

But yes, was Vettel to stay outside of the track, there wouldn't had been an impact occurring. Since Stroll had no awareness of his presence on the track when he was widening his entry into the corner, so that would certainly help. In that case, yes, it was all up to Vettel to not be there where the impact was to happen. One can see it that way.

One can go on with what happened first, chicken or egg. It was an unusual, freak accident. Was Vettel to be more careful and stay outside, it wouldn't have happened. Was Stroll to pay attention to his mirrors when entering wider into the corner, it wouldn't have happened.

On the other note, how's my grammar here? Is "wouldn't have happened" correct?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
[You seem to think I'm alone in this, I do seem to be a bit alone on here, but many F1 pundits ask the question what was Vettel doing?

What are you talking about now? That many F1 pundits are agreeing with you that drivers on the cool-down lap should not look into their mirrors?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:36 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
The leading car is entitled to put his car anywhere he wants to on the track as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd anyone off the race track.


They weren't racing. Racing rules do not apply. They drive at different speeds, and they know cars can and will come buy at random points on the track. That's why you look in your mirrors before you change lines.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:38 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
mds - but Stroll CLEARLY didn't change line - Vettel did. The one who cut across was Vettel.

and Stroll had little option to move - whereas Vettel did - it's not racing, it's coming to the finish - why get all racy?


From Stroll's onboard, Vettel's onboard and the behind I can see Vettel keeping the same line through the corner, Stroll moving away from the kerb (so drifting outward), Stroll not looking in his mirrors.

Stroll had every option to keep the same line through the corner (= staying same distance of the kerb) and if he really wanted to pick up marbles on the outside, then he could have watched his mirrors as is standard behavior on a cooldown lap.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:40 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Prema wrote:

But you are not having a shot from the fixed point! Yes, it is the point that is fixed to the moving car, but that creates the illusion of the point that the shot is being taken as being "fixed". That is why you get the apparentr relativity of everything else moving and changing in the relationship to that "fixed" point. But not really how that "fixed" system itself contributed to it.

You actually just confirmed what I was saying.

The shot taken from the car behind Stroll actually reveals better what is happening with Stroll's car in terms of its position on the track and changing the directions relative to the surrounding, including Vettel's car. That is the advantage of having the outside view.

And I am not questioning the accuracy of that camera. I could show you a shot of two objects colliding and you won't have a clue which one was hitting which (the shot taken from one "fixed" point on one of those objects). That is nothing to do with "accuracy".


The camera is fixed relative to the car is what I meant, which is what you need for accuracy. This gives a constant view of where the car exactly is, the only thing moving is the surroundings. There is nothing ambiguous about any on board, the only problem with them is you can't see everything. The only better camera angle in some circumstances is a helicopter shot from directly above.

All other camera angles are subject to more variables. Just look at the start in Singapore, from 1 or 2 angles it looks like Max is almost level with Vettel. But once you see the on boards you realise he only had his front wing level with Vettels rear tyres.

The camera view from Grosjeans car makes Strolls move seem a lot more drastic because Grosjean himself is moving his car and therefore the camera is panning to the left to go to the inside just before the impact. This visually exaggerates the movement of Strolls car.

Grosjeans on board would have been less misleading because we would see his steering inputs to confirm this. We have no reference with this front mounted camera to show where Grosjeans car is pointing or in what direction it is travelling relative to the other two cars.


Well, sure then. If you look at it carefully then you would notice Stroll's car drifting away from the left side, more to inside of the corner. Just that this is better seen from Grosjeans view, there one can see the actual gap from Stroll's side widening very much. The illusion of his car not turning into Vettel is being created by the constant view of his steering wheel not turning, everything looks as "fixed" and stable. But it is not, the car is changing his position on the track.

What happened with Vettel's on-board camera? That one was the "accurate" shot before this latest one, and now seams it is not?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:41 pm 
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lamo wrote:
You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track.


Already answered this. It doesn't matter where Vettel was 5 car lengths behind Stroll, the point is that before he starts passing Stroll he is already at the same line he then maintains through the corner. And Stroll drifting outwards, and not looking his mirrors before doing so.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Then when asked about what happens after the flag he said as a rule you just follow the car in front into the pits so that goes back to me saying why did Vettel need to be passing cars, what was the rush.


Think we've already established that said "rule" doesn't exist at all, going by pretty much every single race in every single seater & motorbike racing category in the past tens of years.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
The leading car is entitled to put his car anywhere he wants to on the track as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd anyone off the race track.


They weren't racing. Racing rules do not apply. They drive at different speeds, and they know cars can and will come buy at random points on the track. That's why you look in your mirrors before you change lines.

Three things
1. They were still on a race track so rules do apply. But lets just say you are right, they were driving back to the pits. And just like normal driving, if you want to go faster than the car in front it is your responsibility to get past him safely which Vettel failed to do.
2. Before you change lines - like how Vettel changed lines?
3. The car in front has every right to choose his own line as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd another car off the road.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:49 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
1. They were still on a race track so rules do apply. But lets just say you are right, they were driving back to the pits. And just like normal driving, if you want to go faster than the car in front it is your responsibility to get past him safely which Vettel failed to do.


In normal driving you are very much required to check your mirrors before doing a lateral move, because if you collide with someone passing you you will be very much found to be in the wrong.

Quote:
2. Before you change lines - like how Vettel changed lines?


Vettel changed lines before driving by. During the driving by he does not change lines.

Quote:
3. The car in front has every right to choose his own line as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd another car off the road.


That's the racing rules again. They weren't racing.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?


Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.


I didn't mean to take part in the blame-allocating game. Just pointing out how your agenda has been so strong that you have lost a common sense by arguing the said bizarre idea of yours that drivers shouldn't be looking into their mirrors on a cool-down lap. Just because that would kind of free Stroll from any blame and hence "establish" Vettel a guilty driver by default then.

You seem to think I'm alone in this, I do seem to be a bit alone on here, but many F1 pundits ask the question what was Vettel doing?

I've just watched a podcast were not one of them is pointing the figure at Stroll, they even have a taped interview with a professional racing driver to give his opinion, and he says a few things but in respect to Vettel what he says is that Vettel was not actually just following the line of the corner, he was actually turning back to the apex of the corner so was in fact turning into Stroll expecting Stroll to see him and give him room.

He also opinions that Stroll might have been looking at Grosjean's car who also caught him and started to give him room on the inside and so looking in his left mirror was totally fully unaware of Vettel who let's not forget passed both Grosjean and Stroll.

Then when asked about what happens after the flag he said as a rule you just follow the car in front into the pits so that goes back to me saying why did Vettel need to be passing cars, what was the rush.

At this point I haven't got the time to find exactly were it is on a podcast which lasts over 1 hour but nevertheless it's interesting to watch in it's entirety, also bear in mind at no time have I suggested that Vettel should have been penalised for the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1C2wT_4PBo

Go to 35:00

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:58 pm 
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If anyone really believes that anyone other than Vettel was to blame here, then they are clearly biased ?

From the new footage Stroll is shown to not alter steering at all until just before impact when he tries to turn away from Vettel. Seb has a habit of getting annoyed and having an entitled attitude, which can lead to problems (most of his crashes this season)
He tried to sweep past Stroll on the corner, without really thinking , and crashed, he knows he was to blame hence his stance afterwards :(


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:11 pm 
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mds wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
1. They were still on a race track so rules do apply. But lets just say you are right, they were driving back to the pits. And just like normal driving, if you want to go faster than the car in front it is your responsibility to get past him safely which Vettel failed to do.


In normal driving you are very much required to check your mirrors before doing a lateral move, because if you collide with someone passing you you will be very much found to be in the wrong.

Quote:
2. Before you change lines - like how Vettel changed lines?


Vettel changed lines before driving by. During the driving by he does not change lines.

Quote:
3. The car in front has every right to choose his own line as long as he doesnt weave and he doesnt crowd another car off the road.


That's the racing rules again. They weren't racing.

In normal driving, roads have lanes and to cross lanes you check your mirrors. Last time i checked, race tracks dont have lanes and the line that a racing driver chooses to drive on is entirely their choice.

Watching this https://streamable.com/3rc1s at 13 second you can see Vettel changed his line putting him on a collision course with Stroll. Presumably Vettel assumed Stroll was going to take the racing line around a corner. Stroll didnt take the conventional racing line around the corner as he was picking up rubber. He is allowed to do this and indeed most cars do on the cool down lap. You can see at 42 seconds you can see Stroll keeps a fairly consistent steering angle on the wheel and its pretty clear that he did nothing wrong


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Prema wrote:
... On the other note, how's my grammar here? Is "wouldn't have happened" correct?
Reading the thread title, I don't think that you need worry too much about your own grammar.

Edited - somewhat ironically! - for grammar.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Well, sure then. If you look at it carefully then you would notice Stroll's car drifting away from the left side, more to inside of the corner. Just that this is better seen from Grosjeans view, there one can see the actual gap from Stroll's side widening very much. The illusion of his car not turning into Vettel is being created by the constant view of his steering wheel not turning, everything looks as "fixed" and stable. But it is not, the car is changing his position on the track.

What happened with Vettel's on-board camera? That one was the "accurate" shot before this latest one, and now seams it is not?


I agree, he does drift out to the right. But this is seen on his own on board - that is reliable footage. This footage has no trickety to it or obscure anything. Now we have the Stroll on board, the Grosjean shot doesn't add anything and can be discarded because its inaccurate.

The footage from behind is not as reliable as it is exaggerated due to the fact Grosjean himself is moving to the left. So if you have two cars moving in opposite directions, but visually can only see one of them moving then it makes the one car you can see appear to be moving more.

The footage from Grosjeans car appears to show Stroll making a sudden move to the right, this is not correct. This is actually Grosjeans car making a move to the left. Stroll's steering wheel didn't move. Yes he was drifting out a bit but that sudden move that appears from Grosjeans car is an illusion.

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Last edited by lamo on Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:24 pm 
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mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track.


Already answered this. It doesn't matter where Vettel was 5 car lengths behind Stroll, the point is that before he starts passing Stroll he is already at the same line he then maintains through the corner. And Stroll drifting outwards, and not looking his mirrors before doing so.


Stroll didn't change position once Vettel started passing (i.e. once overlap occurred). If you want to start it from the moment Vettel gets basically alongside, Stroll didn't move. You can't have it both ways.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:26 pm 
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I've seen the incident a couple of times now. it was Vettel's fault IMO. He was driving unpredictably while Stroll was doing exactly what you'd expect someone to do in that situation. Vettel basically cut across Stroll and tried to pass him but wasn't clear of him.


Last edited by sandman1347 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:27 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track.


Already answered this. It doesn't matter where Vettel was 5 car lengths behind Stroll, the point is that before he starts passing Stroll he is already at the same line he then maintains through the corner. And Stroll drifting outwards, and not looking his mirrors before doing so.


Stroll didn't change position once Vettel started passing (i.e. once overlap occurred). If you want to start it from the moment Vettel gets basically alongside, Stroll didn't move. You can't have it both ways.

Stroll did change position: the road curved. If he kept going straight that's effectively changing position, surely


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Prema wrote:
lamo wrote:
mds wrote:

Yes. Because he didn't look his mirrors and changed line, while Vettel followed the corner radius.



You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track. We established the track did not narrow.

Following the corner radius would be driving around the outside of the turn throughout. Vettel clearly did no do this which is evident in all three pieces of video footage.

If he had, it would be 100% Strolls fault.


Interesting that the impact was near the middle of the track while Stroll was on the inside of the track prior to the impact. And we established the track didn't narrow.

But yes, was Vettel to stay outside of the track, there wouldn't had been an impact occurring. Since Stroll had no awareness of his presence on the track when he was widening his entry into the corner, so that would certainly help. In that case, yes, it was all up to Vettel to not be there where the impact was to happen. One can see it that way.

One can go on with what happened first, chicken or egg. It was an unusual, freak accident. Was Vettel to be more careful and stay outside, it wouldn't have happened. Was Stroll to pay attention to his mirrors when entering wider into the corner, it wouldn't have happened.

On the other note, how's my grammar here? Is "wouldn't have happened" correct?


Yes I agree, it is a rare racing incident and both cars moved toward one another. Stroll's move was to allow Grosjean to overtake on the inside. Vettel I have no idea why he felt the need to move more toward the inside of the track when he had the outside line on the approach.

"Would not have happened" is correct grammar yes.

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Last edited by lamo on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track.


Already answered this. It doesn't matter where Vettel was 5 car lengths behind Stroll, the point is that before he starts passing Stroll he is already at the same line he then maintains through the corner. And Stroll drifting outwards, and not looking his mirrors before doing so.


Stroll didn't change position once Vettel started passing (i.e. once overlap occurred). If you want to start it from the moment Vettel gets basically alongside, Stroll didn't move. You can't have it both ways.

Stroll did change position: the road curved. If he kept going straight that's effectively changing position, surely


Mds is saying Vettel did not change position once the pass was under way, at that point neither did Stroll.

They both moved quite a bit before Vettel had any overlap with his car. Toward one another.

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