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If Kimi wasn't there who would you blame?
Max 21%  21%  [ 4 ]
Seb 63%  63%  [ 12 ]
Racing incident 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
The flying spaghetti monster 16%  16%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 19
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:37 am 
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If Kimi hadn't been on the inside, Max had stuck to his line and the crash had still happened who would you blame if either of them?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:43 am 
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Lot of ifs there. Assuming no other changes, if Vettel had careered across into Max and left him no room, then the former. But if he had left a car's width on the inside, then the latter. As it was Vettel and Max didn't come together, so the whole question is kind of moot. Without Kimi being there it's doubtful any accident would have happened


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lot of ifs there. Assuming no other changes, if Vettel had careered across into Max and left him no room, then the former. But if he had left a car's width on the inside, then the latter. As it was Vettel and Max didn't come together, so the whole question is kind of moot. Without Kimi being there it's doubtful any accident would have happened

No changes except losing Kimi, so Max would be occupying the same bit of track he was when Kimi was there...

edit: Plus obviously the crash happening slightly later


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:58 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lot of ifs there. Assuming no other changes, if Vettel had careered across into Max and left him no room, then the former. But if he had left a car's width on the inside, then the latter. As it was Vettel and Max didn't come together, so the whole question is kind of moot. Without Kimi being there it's doubtful any accident would have happened

No changes except losing Kimi, so Max would be occupying the same bit of track he was when Kimi was there...

edit: Plus obviously the crash happening slightly later

1. Max wouldn't have had to worry about Kimi crowding him on the inside, so would have had almost two car widths to play with. There would have been no reason for the crash.
2. Max and Vettel never touched, so there's no reason to believe they subsequently would have done if Kimi hadn't been there


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Max. Though he would probably have blamed the pitwall or the yellow paint. Or both. Or both plus Kimi anyway. Or all of those and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lot of ifs there. Assuming no other changes, if Vettel had careered across into Max and left him no room, then the former. But if he had left a car's width on the inside, then the latter. As it was Vettel and Max didn't come together, so the whole question is kind of moot. Without Kimi being there it's doubtful any accident would have happened


This. The standard thing that happens in these cases, whether during a start of defending on a straight line, is the car ahead moving over but stopping to move over to leave a car's width of space between himself and the track edge. The car behind follows the movement.

This is what Vettel was doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Without Kimi there the accident wouldn't have happened, either Max would have got to the inside and took the lead into T1 or it would have been a carbon copy of Alonso/Vettel in 2010 that ALESI posted in the other thread.

No Kimi, no accident. Which isn't to say Kimi was to blame of course.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:09 pm 
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If Kimi wasn't there, they don't touch and run down to T1 with Max just about overlapping Vettelas car. I would see it as being quite likely that they would come together at turn 1 or at very least Vettel has to leave the track to avoid him. I don't see Max backing down or even giving Vettel a full cars width in the corner and the kerbs were very slippery.

Max is a liability in these situations, he's developed the Senna thing of "you back off or we will crash" which has caused him a lot of DNFs but might help him in the future.

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Last edited by lamo on Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:33 pm 
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An alternative thought: what if Kimi doesn't hit Vettel? I think we could've seen a much bigger accident as you would've basically had everyone at the front of the field checking up as Kimi slides back across the track in-front of them, and the potential for those behind them to be caught out (especially with the reduced visibility) and actually be launched over the back of another car. Max and Kimi would both have still been out regardless, while Vettel would've - at worst - suffered a left rear puncture. Alonso possibly escapes all the chaos too, although maybe he still gets caught up as Kimi would've ended on the side of the track he was heading down...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:41 pm 
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What if a dinosaur ate Alonso?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:46 pm 
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I'll put 2 scenarios:

1. Had Kimi not been there, the rundown to the 1st corner would be somewhat similar to that of Monza but with a little difference. Stroll moved aside as Hamilton swayed in his path & followed him (and Perez) into the 1st corner. In the same way, Verstappen would've swayed enough not to hit Vettel but because he was in the inside line, he would enter the 1st corner ahead of Vettel. However, Vettel would've gotten a better tow out of the 5th turn towards the straight.

2. In the long shot, had Kimi not been there, Perez would've been in the 2nd Ferrari. :D

P.S - Regarding the 1st point, anything could've still happened between Verstappen & Vettel because we can't underestimate the wet conditions & the close proximity of the cars at the start.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 pm 
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But the poll is a hypothetical situation when the 2nd Ferrari wasn't there, max stuck to his line and seb to his with a crash occurring. What would have happened in the real world is irrelevant.
If you don't want to answer the poll fine, but this is to figure views on a specific circumstance and I'm trying to keep my view on this out if it too


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:05 pm 
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If Kimi wasn't there, the accident wouldn't happen where it did. With Max there, it would probably have happened in turn 1... Sorry Max! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
If Kimi wasn't there, the accident wouldn't happen where it did. With Max there, it would probably have happened in turn 1... Sorry Max! :D

With the lines they were on it would have before the corner, forgot there's no point on this forum because people push their own agendas


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:10 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
But the poll is a hypothetical situation when the 2nd Ferrari wasn't there, max stuck to his line and seb to his with a crash occurring. What would have happened in the real world is irrelevant.
If you don't want to answer the poll fine, but this is to figure views on a specific circumstance and I'm trying to keep my view on this out if it too

It seemed to me that you were intimating the crash would have happened anyway, which I strongly doubt would have been the case.

But if you're implying a purely fictitious scenario, then it's impossible to say. As long as Vettel left Max enough room (which he did in the real world) he wouldn't have been at fault.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:18 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Fiki wrote:
If Kimi wasn't there, the accident wouldn't happen where it did. With Max there, it would probably have happened in turn 1... Sorry Max! :D

With the lines they were on it would have before the corner, forgot there's no point on this forum because people push their own agendas

It wouldn't have. They were never on a collision course. Unless Max didn't bother braking for the corner. In which case it would have been his fault

I don't really get what you mean by agendas. Your scenario changes what actually happened quite substantially because at no point were Max and Seb ever looking likely to collide. So if you remove Kimi, why would that suddenly change? You're having to alter their respective positions on track to even make it possible, and then you have to wonder why they would engineer that in the first place. You're creating a situation where if driver A hits driver B who is at fault, in which case it's most likely the driver doing the hitting, surely?

Bottom line is that without Kimi there is no collision, so making one creates an entirely different set of circumstances altogether. You don't need an agenda to recognise that


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Without Kimi there the accident wouldn't have happened, either Max would have got to the inside and took the lead into T1 or it would have been a carbon copy of Alonso/Vettel in 2010 that ALESI posted in the other thread.

No Kimi, no accident. Which isn't to say Kimi was to blame of course.

:thumbup:

Exactly. If there had still been a crash with no Kimi, I'd be inclined to blame Max, but it wouldn't have happened.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:42 am 
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Vettel clearly


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:01 am 
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Both. Vettel would still have driven into another driver so it would technically be his fault. I mean, Who blames Webber for Istanbul 2010?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

Technically Vettel left loads of room but they still crashed. Also Webber got a penalty for this start in 2009 - See at 22 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYusQfrn3jg

Barrichello still had space but Webber was deemed at fault.

Generally the guy moving across the track gets the blame.


However Max would have been pretty stupid in this situation if he let the crash happen.


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