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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:58 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton was summed up in his first season and nothing has changed. Gave a double world champion a run for his money - something not many honestly thought would happen.

He showed moments of experience, talent, raw speed and race craft. At times he can make mistakes - he's human. He's managed to win in a front runner car, a car slightly off pace from the front runners and nothing has really changed.

The rest is just rival banter. Any team boss down the pit lane would take the likes of Lewis Hamilton.

And for anyone that says it's all the car - just remember that every title winner in the last 20 years won in a title contender car. Even one of the greatest drivers - Michael Schumacher said the car is a large portion but it's down to the driver to make the best of it.

If people question the talent level of Lewis, I think these people are the same ones who think they can drive an F1 car just because they know how to drive an average car on a dual carriageway at 120MPH. The same people who wreck their average car on a silly corner doing 50MPH compared to F1 drivers who are among the best in the world getting within a few tenths of each other taking corners at over 100MPH in cars that also provide G Forces that make the average person throw up or struggle to think straight.

This whole post is a bit of a strawman, really. I don't think anybody is questioning his talent. The discussion is whether he is the best of his generation, which is somewhat different and open to debate


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:49 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew5tVrgJ_U

Image

This is why Hamiltion is the best of his generation, just after he secured McLaren Mercedes sponsorship around 1998 just as Mercedes were coming to the fore with the Newey designed McLaren. Part luck, part instinctively knowing what to do on the track, what to do with the management and what to do with the sponsors and media. He made the most of whatever opportunities arose, and continued to gain more sponsors and media coverage with his ambition to follow in the steps of his idol Ayrton Senna.

Vettel also secured Red Bull sponsorship around this time at a younger age. He idolised Schumacher who he managed to make friends with and helped him make his debut into F1 with BMW before being recalled to Red Bull.

The difference I feel, is that Lewis managed to form an early relationship with Mercedes whereas Sebastian managed to form early relationships with Red Bull, BMW and Ferrari. Had Sebastian made himself Mercedes' young German protege from a young age maybe Lewis Hamilton may have never got his big break.

Lewis Hamilton has since gone on to endorse Monster energy drinks and has the best engine in F1. Surely he is the favourite for the remaining years they have in F1 to win the most races and championships.

Alonso I feel is finished. He is a fast driver but not as clever business wise as LH or SV.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:57 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew5tVrgJ_U

Image

This is why Hamiltion is the best of his generation, just after he secured McLaren Mercedes sponsorship around 1998 just as Mercedes were coming to the fore with the Newey designed McLaren. Part luck, part instinctively knowing what to do on the track, what to do with the management and what to do with the sponsors and media. He made the most of whatever opportunities arose, and continued to gain more sponsors and media coverage with his ambition to follow in the steps of his idol Ayrton Senna.

Vettel also secured Red Bull sponsorship around this time at a younger age. He idolised Schumacher who he managed to make friends with and helped him make his debut into F1 with BMW before being recalled to Red Bull.

The difference I feel, is that Lewis managed to form an early relationship with Mercedes whereas Sebastian managed to form early relationships with Red Bull, BMW and Ferrari. Had Sebastian made himself Mercedes' young German protege from a young age maybe Lewis Hamilton may have never got his big break.

Lewis Hamilton has since gone on to endorse Monster energy drinks and has the best engine in F1. Surely he is the favourite for the remaining years they have in F1 to win the most races and championships.

Alonso I feel is finished. He is a fast driver but not as clever business wise as LH or SV.

Alonso has certainly missed some opportunities, but I feel that luck plays a far bigger part in these outcomes than business acumen.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:41 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew5tVrgJ_U

Image

This is why Hamiltion is the best of his generation, just after he secured McLaren Mercedes sponsorship around 1998 just as Mercedes were coming to the fore with the Newey designed McLaren. Part luck, part instinctively knowing what to do on the track, what to do with the management and what to do with the sponsors and media. He made the most of whatever opportunities arose, and continued to gain more sponsors and media coverage with his ambition to follow in the steps of his idol Ayrton Senna.

Vettel also secured Red Bull sponsorship around this time at a younger age. He idolised Schumacher who he managed to make friends with and helped him make his debut into F1 with BMW before being recalled to Red Bull.

The difference I feel, is that Lewis managed to form an early relationship with Mercedes whereas Sebastian managed to form early relationships with Red Bull, BMW and Ferrari. Had Sebastian made himself Mercedes' young German protege from a young age maybe Lewis Hamilton may have never got his big break.

Lewis Hamilton has since gone on to endorse Monster energy drinks and has the best engine in F1. Surely he is the favourite for the remaining years they have in F1 to win the most races and championships.

Alonso I feel is finished. He is a fast driver but not as clever business wise as LH or SV.

I wouldn't call it business acumen as such, but I think there is so much to admire in how Lewis forged his path into F1. Children from his socio-economic (not to mention ethnic) background are very rare in karting (indeed I have read and heard some pretty sad stories regarding the treatment he was subjected to by some of the parents of the children he beat) and to make it happen with the meagre budget and equipment the Hamiltons had available speaks volumes about Lewis' (and his father's, of course) work ethic and dedication. A lot is made of Lewis' backing from McLaren as he rose up the ranks and this is sometimes used as a stick to beat him with, as if it were some sort of charitable gift; as far as I'm concerned that backing was something Lewis earned and maintained himself through his own talent and McLaren would have dropped him like a stone if he'd had even a single disappointing year along the way.

I just don't buy these accusations I see of Lewis' supposed lack of dedication, it just doesn't stack up with the route he had to take to get where he is.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:50 pm 
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I don't think many would dispute that Hamilton is the most gifted driver of his generation. You see it in his wet-weather prowess (he's as good as there's ever been in the wet if you ask me) and in his qualifying and race performances when he's on form. But unfortunately in a few races every season he just seems all at sea and ends up absolutely nowhere. I believe his technical feedback is better than some give him credit for as I don't think it's possible to get as far as he has without knowing how to set a car up, but he does seem to get stuck in a dead end on setup sometimes and never gets the car how he wants it. This is where I think Alonso surpasses Hamilton as the standout driver of this generation, he is more consistent and just doesn't have those 'off' weekends.

Put it this way: if they held a single race in spec cars and had all the F1 drivers take part I'd put my money on Hamilton to win, but if they held a championship season in spec cars and had all the F1 drivers take part I'd be backing Alonso.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:09 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.

I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car


Almost all of the car setup during the race weekend is determined by the engineers. The driver does offer the input of "it is pushing exit turn 3" and stuff like that but such input is not based on technical proficiency, just driver feel. Between P2 and P3, all data is uploaded back to the factory, the people back at home base set up their dummy car on the 5 post rig, and work all night trying setups. Once they arrive at conclusions, that data is fed back to the track, and in the morning of F3 those setups are applied to the car.

And with a team mate, the setup the team arrives at may come from the other team mate. So Hamilton has a factory and data from home base, a second team mate who also offers just as much input, and a darn good car. So the harsh reality is that a talented driver may contribute zilch to the setup yet have the best car. I doubt this is the case of Hamilton, but he is not the person who designs and sets up the car, his contribution to the car and setup is very minor. And that applies to all drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:34 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.

I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car


Almost all of the car setup during the race weekend is determined by the engineers. The driver does offer the input of "it is pushing exit turn 3" and stuff like that but such input is not based on technical proficiency, just driver feel. Between P2 and P3, all data is uploaded back to the factory, the people back at home base set up their dummy car on the 5 post rig, and work all night trying setups. Once they arrive at conclusions, that data is fed back to the track, and in the morning of F3 those setups are applied to the car.

And with a team mate, the setup the team arrives at may come from the other team mate. So Hamilton has a factory and data from home base, a second team mate who also offers just as much input, and a darn good car. So the harsh reality is that a talented driver may contribute zilch to the setup yet have the best car. I doubt this is the case of Hamilton, but he is not the person who designs and sets up the car, his contribution to the car and setup is very minor. And that applies to all drivers.


Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design?
You.just stated this statement in your nonsense blog. And now stating drivers contribute nothing to setting up the car.

Why in.the Mclaren years did Jenson on many occasions have to copy Hamilton setups if its all down to engineers? I thought Jenson was the so called cerebral driver.
Engineers also take feedback from drivers and tweak cars accordingly.

You're writing nonsense again. The engineers do a large part of setting up the car but this also relies on the feedback from drivers. They work in symbiosis.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:44 am 
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So all of that said, maybe Nico wasn't so bad then.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:00 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Almost all of the car setup during the race weekend is determined by the engineers. The driver does offer the input of "it is pushing exit turn 3" and stuff like that but such input is not based on technical proficiency, just driver feel. Between P2 and P3, all data is uploaded back to the factory, the people back at home base set up their dummy car on the 5 post rig, and work all night trying setups. Once they arrive at conclusions, that data is fed back to the track, and in the morning of F3 those setups are applied to the car.

And with a team mate, the setup the team arrives at may come from the other team mate. So Hamilton has a factory and data from home base, a second team mate who also offers just as much input, and a darn good car. So the harsh reality is that a talented driver may contribute zilch to the setup yet have the best car. I doubt this is the case of Hamilton, but he is not the person who designs and sets up the car, his contribution to the car and setup is very minor. And that applies to all drivers.


That's nonsense, ok you have a point about the base set-up of the car, but the rest not at all.

That's why they have free practice, to get the car finely tuned for the track. The car has a general set-up, and base set-up it goes with for each track, and based on the motec data and what they have for each track turn up based on the work at the factory and knowhow of their car, that can generally work for that track. But the actual set-up of the car and the fine tuning is mostly down to the driver's feedback and the engineer's tweaking, getting the car to his liking and maximizing the car's final performance. Of course the engineers have all the data to optimize the tyre temperatures accordingly also, based on what they know of the car and driver doing stints in free practice.

Wing adjustments, preloads, roll bar changes, brake bias adjustments etc are tweaked and based on a driver's liking and feedback. The driver along with the engineer both play a major part in getting the car finely tuned and set-up for each track. Often team mates have differently set-up cars too, while sometimes a set-up may be good for both driver's to go on, as set-up changes and going the wrong or right way can greatly affect the car's laptime around the tracks (By tenths even) And sometimes it can greatly affect how the tyres behave in the race, with wear and grip, just by the driver going the wrong way with a set-up that he thought was working, or generally struggled to get the set-up he liked over the weekend (And cannot drive the same style set-up as his team mate who was happy and faster)

So driver feedback/setup work with the engineer is just a normal thing as part of the weekend. Hamilton knows how to set-up the car, but sometimes a team mate may have found something better, by going a different way, and vise versa, and that's where looking at data comes in too.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Yadda yadda yadda


Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design?
You.just stated this statement in your nonsense blog. And now stating drivers contribute nothing to setting up the car.

Why in.the Mclaren years did Jenson on many occasions have to copy Hamilton setups if its all down to engineers? I thought Jenson was the so called cerebral driver.
Engineers also take feedback from drivers and tweak cars accordingly.

You're writing nonsense again. The engineers do a large part of setting up the car but this also relies on the feedback from drivers. They work in symbiosis.


First off, I am attempting to put forth my opinion by adult conversation. When you stoop to personal insults, you have forfeited the conversation and lost the debate.

That being said, I will address some points of your attack. I never stated that any driver contributes nothing. I stated that any technical contribution was not as much as some fans believe, and minimal. It is a shame you must twist my words instead of just referencing the facts.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:29 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew5tVrgJ_U

Image

This is why Hamiltion is the best of his generation, just after he secured McLaren Mercedes sponsorship around 1998 just as Mercedes were coming to the fore with the Newey designed McLaren. Part luck, part instinctively knowing what to do on the track, what to do with the management and what to do with the sponsors and media. He made the most of whatever opportunities arose, and continued to gain more sponsors and media coverage with his ambition to follow in the steps of his idol Ayrton Senna.

Vettel also secured Red Bull sponsorship around this time at a younger age. He idolised Schumacher who he managed to make friends with and helped him make his debut into F1 with BMW before being recalled to Red Bull.

The difference I feel, is that Lewis managed to form an early relationship with Mercedes whereas Sebastian managed to form early relationships with Red Bull, BMW and Ferrari. Had Sebastian made himself Mercedes' young German protege from a young age maybe Lewis Hamilton may have never got his big break.

Lewis Hamilton has since gone on to endorse Monster energy drinks and has the best engine in F1. Surely he is the favourite for the remaining years they have in F1 to win the most races and championships.

Alonso I feel is finished. He is a fast driver but not as clever business wise as LH or SV.



That is just pot lock, Vettels decision to align with Red Bull was looking pretty rosy as he won his 9th straight race and 4th straight WDC at the end of 2013 whilst Lewis was still a one time champion. Lets not forget, Vettel still has more WDCs than Hamilton too. They have both been very lucky with machinery, like any driver who has multiple world titles especially those with 3 or more.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:54 pm 
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The extremely difficult thing about F1 is that so much is dependent on the car. I still feel Alonso is probably #1. Hamilton #2a, Vettal #2b. I watched a youtube segment with Peter Windsor the other day with some Mag dude. He mentioned that he thinks Alonso is still the best. Even referred to when someone asked Massa who is better, Shumi or Alonso, and without hesitation, he said it was Alonso. Hopefully soon we can see more battles with him.

I think that Max may be a very special talent, but it may take some time to see this actually pay off in actual results.

This is one of the only reasons I still watch those ugly IndyCars, because it is more about the true racing and talent of the driver. In that series, I still feel Zanardi is the all time best. Its just too bad that talent didn't transfer to F1 (for whatever reason)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:47 am 
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http://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo- ... me-or-max/

“I look at Lewis, Seb as the other guys at the top but I don’t see them being better than me or Max.”

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:05 am 
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ALESI wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo-seb-lewis-not-better-than-me-or-max/

“I look at Lewis, Seb as the other guys at the top but I don’t see them being better than me or Max.”
I think he's right. When Lauda said Hamilton was 3 tenths faster than Rosberg, it became clear to me that these people make a distinction between drivers much as I do. There's faster, and there's better. And which one is more important may be dependent on a number of factors such as car, team, team policy, etc. At the time of his death, I felt that Senna was still faster than Schumacher.

Hamilton is fast, though I have no idea whether he's faster than Alonso (a name left out by Ricciardo).

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
ALESI wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo-seb-lewis-not-better-than-me-or-max/

“I look at Lewis, Seb as the other guys at the top but I don’t see them being better than me or Max.”
I think he's right. When Lauda said Hamilton was 3 tenths faster than Rosberg, it became clear to me that these people make a distinction between drivers much as I do. There's faster, and there's better. And which one is more important may be dependent on a number of factors such as car, team, team policy, etc. At the time of his death, I felt that Senna was still faster than Schumacher.

Hamilton is fast, though I have no idea whether he's faster than Alonso (a name left out by Ricciardo).


Ricciardo didn't mention Alonso since the title fight is between LH and SV and that's where the focus is.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:08 pm 
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A few things I do want to clarify about the discussion, and I did mention them in my opening post.

The first is that it's correct that equipment plays an important part in a driver's ability to showcase their talent - however, every driver that we consider to be a potential greatest of all time, has spent a sizeable part of their career driving for front running teams, as well as having a few seasons in a dominant car. There's a reason Schumacher was driving in the 2000s era Ferrari and not Ricardo Rosset. The reason Ricardo Rosset is not a multiple WDC with a high win tally is not because he wasn't driving for Williams, McLaren or Ferrari during his career.

I think in terms of talent:equipment ratio, Alonso is an anomaly (although he has had a very good package for at least 3 seasons in 2005 - 2007) - he's been unlikely with his timing with his big moves to Ferrari and McLaren.

The second relates to the "Driver X wouldn't have had a season like 2011" - a key point of the question was "now rising to be" - if we were to go back to Schumacher at the end of 1997, after attempting to take Villeneuve out, while we'd be agreeing about his sublime natural talent there would be a huge question marks about his temperament and decisions. If we look at Senna in 1990 there were equally a lot a people discussing similar points of view back then as well.

My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?


He's definitely improved things like his decision making, consistency and attitude.

This run of races is possibly the best I've ever seen him. Vettel was driving better in the earlier part of the season and overall could well be just as good as Hamillton, I don't know, but right now Hamilton is driving superbly.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?

Hamilton's biggest weakness, that afflicted his 2011 season, was how he would often be absent on weekends, typically those where his car was not on the pace. It's what Button remarked about being the biggest difference between Alonso and Hamilton, Alonso never had those weekends whether they were fighting for a high points position or for 15th.

This season, and I think it is down to two reasons - the Ferrari being a roughly equivalent car (some circuits it's ahead, others Merc is, like the 07/08 seasons) means that Hamilton realises to get the championship he does need to maximise even if he can't win. The other factor I think is that he was beaten by Rosberg in 2016, and not just in a fluke final race, that Rosberg got a substantial enough lead he could just follow Hamilton home for the final few races.

Hamilton has no doubt in his mind in his belief he is better than Rosberg, and I feel that he felt whatever happened he'd be able to beat Rosberg over a season, so let his focus drift. We saw less of it in 2015 after it went to the wire in 2014, but as soon as he'd clinched the championship, Hamilton went into autopilot for the final races of the seasons (assuming Merc didn't instruct him to let Rosberg win the final few races, but I don't think that's the case,
I think Hamilton was just cruising)

This season we've not seen the 'absent' Hamilton of seasons past, and in Singapore I thought we were going to, it was a typical 'absent Hamilton' set up.
Merc unable to challenge, guaranteed 5th/6th due to the gap to the gap Merc found itself in between Red Bull/Ferrari and the rest. But he was on it as much as Vettel was, demonstrated by the gap he had to Bottas in qualifying and then by the performance in the race. And while there have been some races that Bottas had a slight edge over him, he hasn't been mopey about it like he used to get in previous years.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Vettels Singapore move reminded me of Hamilton 2007-2011, like how he collided Jenson in Canada, Kobayashi in Spa and all his incidences with Massa in 2011.

I think Hamilton has definitely ironed a lot of that out of his racing. Even his great drive in Monaco 2008 was in part due to hitting the wall and giving himself a puncture.

I think its in part to do with maturing and in part due to now having the best car or at least not an inferior one. Hamilton took big risks in the 2010 title run in, but by that point he was in the 3rd best car and had 2 DNFs from collisions - title over.

The same as parts of 2008. If you know you have a better car, you can relax and wait for opportunities later in that race or even just the next weekend. Vettel had to win Singapore, Red Bull Vettel from 2010-2013 would have slipped down to 2nd-3rd and likely come back and still won the race. So I think this kind of mistakes you need to put into context on the machinery. The same as Alonso who was taking huge risks at the starts in 2012 due to his inferior car.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
A few things I do want to clarify about the discussion, and I did mention them in my opening post.

The first is that it's correct that equipment plays an important part in a driver's ability to showcase their talent - however, every driver that we consider to be a potential greatest of all time, has spent a sizeable part of their career driving for front running teams, as well as having a few seasons in a dominant car. There's a reason Schumacher was driving in the 2000s era Ferrari and not Ricardo Rosset. The reason Ricardo Rosset is not a multiple WDC with a high win tally is not because he wasn't driving for Williams, McLaren or Ferrari during his career.

I think in terms of talent:equipment ratio, Alonso is an anomaly (although he has had a very good package for at least 3 seasons in 2005 - 2007) - he's been unlikely with his timing with his big moves to Ferrari and McLaren.

The second relates to the "Driver X wouldn't have had a season like 2011" - a key point of the question was "now rising to be" - if we were to go back to Schumacher at the end of 1997, after attempting to take Villeneuve out, while we'd be agreeing about his sublime natural talent there would be a huge question marks about his temperament and decisions. If we look at Senna in 1990 there were equally a lot a people discussing similar points of view back then as well.

My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.


I applaud your willingness to comprehend that drivers do not operate on a constant performance arc, others on this forum would do well to imitate it. Unfortunately, because Alonso has shown his willingness to hammer in the performances in a useless car, it plays to the idea that all top drivers would do the same. I'm not so sure. We saw how Vettel went way off the boil the first year he didn't have a chance at the WDC, given Hamilton's propensity for losing focus sometimes, I wonder how he would cope with a couple of years of no podiums?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Hamilton has said recently that he's worked hard on minimizing mistakes and it's working out well for him. So that's one area of improvement for him this season.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Hamilton's speed is a tad overrated. I don't think he's any faster than Vettel or Alonso. If he is, the difference is at best marginal. His Mercedes cars in recent times have left an illusion of invincibility. Vettel's speed was overrated for the same reason in 2013 (read the forums back then). I'd be amazed if there was more than a tenth/lap between the top drivers, and it would vary from circuit to circuit.

On the other hand, Hamilton's consistency is very underrated. He does have 2-3 bad weekends a season, but so does everyone else. For some reason, it's more highlighted when Hamilton has a bad weekend as opposed to others. Hamilton has became a lot more cerebral after 2011. He almost never makes a mistake or crashes these days.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.

I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car


Almost all of the car setup during the race weekend is determined by the engineers. The driver does offer the input of "it is pushing exit turn 3" and stuff like that but such input is not based on technical proficiency, just driver feel. Between P2 and P3, all data is uploaded back to the factory, the people back at home base set up their dummy car on the 5 post rig, and work all night trying setups. Once they arrive at conclusions, that data is fed back to the track, and in the morning of F3 those setups are applied to the car.

And with a team mate, the setup the team arrives at may come from the other team mate. So Hamilton has a factory and data from home base, a second team mate who also offers just as much input, and a darn good car. So the harsh reality is that a talented driver may contribute zilch to the setup yet have the best car. I doubt this is the case of Hamilton, but he is not the person who designs and sets up the car, his contribution to the car and setup is very minor. And that applies to all drivers.

This is so funny coz you're the one who called Lewis's technical proficiency into question in the first place lol.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:01 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton's speed is a tad overrated. I don't think he's any faster than Vettel or Alonso. If he is, the difference is at best marginal. His Mercedes cars in recent times have left an illusion of invincibility. Vettel's speed was overrated for the same reason in 2013 (read the forums back then). I'd be amazed if there was more than a tenth/lap between the top drivers, and it would vary from circuit to circuit.

On the other hand, Hamilton's consistency is very underrated. He does have 2-3 bad weekends a season, but so does everyone else. For some reason, it's more highlighted when Hamilton has a bad weekend as opposed to others. Hamilton has became a lot more cerebral after 2011. He almost never makes a mistake or crashes these days.

Why is that though? During the summer break we were told that Vettel was the best driver of the first half and people cited Monaco and Russia as the reason Hamilton was underperforming. It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:55 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton's speed is a tad overrated. I don't think he's any faster than Vettel or Alonso. If he is, the difference is at best marginal. His Mercedes cars in recent times have left an illusion of invincibility. Vettel's speed was overrated for the same reason in 2013 (read the forums back then). I'd be amazed if there was more than a tenth/lap between the top drivers, and it would vary from circuit to circuit.

On the other hand, Hamilton's consistency is very underrated. He does have 2-3 bad weekends a season, but so does everyone else. For some reason, it's more highlighted when Hamilton has a bad weekend as opposed to others. Hamilton has became a lot more cerebral after 2011. He almost never makes a mistake or crashes these days.

Why is that though? During the summer break we were told that Vettel was the best driver of the first half and people cited Monaco and Russia as the reason Hamilton was underperforming. It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

It's more that people focus on Hamilton's missteps more than anyone else. I've always felt that the guy who's deficiencies are always glossed over is Alonso. No matter what he does, the reaction in the forum is like he's walking on water...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:07 am 
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Alonso crashes too many times for someone who has pretensions of being the G.O.A.T. Most of them are caused by his volatile personality when translated to driving actions.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:21 am 
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Yeah right.

:lol:

Perhaps not having a car capable of being at the front, mired in mid-pack at best, makes one considerably more vulnerable. Now perhaps have missed something, but I don't recall Alonso being responsible for all that many crashes...unless you are blaming him for being in the wrong place at the wrong time too?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:24 am 
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mas wrote:
Alonso crashes too many times for someone who has pretensions of being the G.O.A.T. Most of them are caused by his volatile personality when translated to driving actions.

... Examples?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:48 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?

Hamilton's biggest weakness, that afflicted his 2011 season, was how he would often be absent on weekends, typically those where his car was not on the pace. It's what Button remarked about being the biggest difference between Alonso and Hamilton, Alonso never had those weekends whether they were fighting for a high points position or for 15th.

This season, and I think it is down to two reasons - the Ferrari being a roughly equivalent car (some circuits it's ahead, others Merc is, like the 07/08 seasons) means that Hamilton realises to get the championship he does need to maximise even if he can't win. The other factor I think is that he was beaten by Rosberg in 2016, and not just in a fluke final race, that Rosberg got a substantial enough lead he could just follow Hamilton home for the final few races.

Hamilton has no doubt in his mind in his belief he is better than Rosberg, and I feel that he felt whatever happened he'd be able to beat Rosberg over a season, so let his focus drift. We saw less of it in 2015 after it went to the wire in 2014, but as soon as he'd clinched the championship, Hamilton went into autopilot for the final races of the seasons (assuming Merc didn't instruct him to let Rosberg win the final few races, but I don't think that's the case,
I think Hamilton was just cruising)

This season we've not seen the 'absent' Hamilton of seasons past, and in Singapore I thought we were going to, it was a typical 'absent Hamilton' set up.
Merc unable to challenge, guaranteed 5th/6th due to the gap to the gap Merc found itself in between Red Bull/Ferrari and the rest. But he was on it as much as Vettel was, demonstrated by the gap he had to Bottas in qualifying and then by the performance in the race. And while there have been some races that Bottas had a slight edge over him, he hasn't been mopey about it like he used to get in previous years.

By the same token, though, Vettel was usually talked of as being the driver of the first half of the season, which means that Hamilton is really being assessed on the last few races. Is that enough to consider him for best of his generation? How is it better than, say, what Vettel did in 2012?

I still think the car tends to colour most people's judgements. Hamilton is driving the best car this year, particularly when it comes to giving him a qualifying edge, which is vitally important. He's putting it where it needs to be, to be fair to him, but we'd expect one of the best of his generation - which he undoubtedly is - to do that, anyway. I'm not convinced Vettel could have gotten any better results than he has done. Nor Alonso, for that matter. I wouldn't dispute that Hamilton is doing well, but I don't see anything that makes him stand out from the other multiple WDCs. I really don't get the hyperbole that tends to accompany him.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:07 am 
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as much as I hate to say it, it does feel like he is getting more and more reliable.

I still think he can do silly mistakes, when NOT under pressure , but they tend to be less and less and he rises back after them like no other.

I can't compare him to Vettel, cause I think they have different strengths. But when you add commercial aspects also, it is a more logical choice than Vettel to drive for a team.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Tough call at this point - I think the next couple of years will be quite telling.

It's done him no harm having a good package around him, but it was a leap of faith at the time regardless of Merc's cash. (Thinking Toyota, although the Merc was at least a race winner when Lewis committed)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?

Hamilton's biggest weakness, that afflicted his 2011 season, was how he would often be absent on weekends, typically those where his car was not on the pace. It's what Button remarked about being the biggest difference between Alonso and Hamilton, Alonso never had those weekends whether they were fighting for a high points position or for 15th.

This season, and I think it is down to two reasons - the Ferrari being a roughly equivalent car (some circuits it's ahead, others Merc is, like the 07/08 seasons) means that Hamilton realises to get the championship he does need to maximise even if he can't win. The other factor I think is that he was beaten by Rosberg in 2016, and not just in a fluke final race, that Rosberg got a substantial enough lead he could just follow Hamilton home for the final few races.

Hamilton has no doubt in his mind in his belief he is better than Rosberg, and I feel that he felt whatever happened he'd be able to beat Rosberg over a season, so let his focus drift. We saw less of it in 2015 after it went to the wire in 2014, but as soon as he'd clinched the championship, Hamilton went into autopilot for the final races of the seasons (assuming Merc didn't instruct him to let Rosberg win the final few races, but I don't think that's the case,
I think Hamilton was just cruising)

This season we've not seen the 'absent' Hamilton of seasons past, and in Singapore I thought we were going to, it was a typical 'absent Hamilton' set up.
Merc unable to challenge, guaranteed 5th/6th due to the gap to the gap Merc found itself in between Red Bull/Ferrari and the rest. But he was on it as much as Vettel was, demonstrated by the gap he had to Bottas in qualifying and then by the performance in the race. And while there have been some races that Bottas had a slight edge over him, he hasn't been mopey about it like he used to get in previous years.

By the same token, though, Vettel was usually talked of as being the driver of the first half of the season, which means that Hamilton is really being assessed on the last few races. Is that enough to consider him for best of his generation? How is it better than, say, what Vettel did in 2012?

I still think the car tends to colour most people's judgements. Hamilton is driving the best car this year, particularly when it comes to giving him a qualifying edge, which is vitally important. He's putting it where it needs to be, to be fair to him, but we'd expect one of the best of his generation - which he undoubtedly is - to do that, anyway. I'm not convinced Vettel could have gotten any better results than he has done. Nor Alonso, for that matter. I wouldn't dispute that Hamilton is doing well, but I don't see anything that makes him stand out from the other multiple WDCs. I really don't get the hyperbole that tends to accompany him.


Its surely 2007-2016, plus what the have done in 2017. 2017 is pivotal for Hamilton in terms of how good he goes down because he firstly has a new team mate and is still in his prime and that is the main thing you can judge a driver by. Its also only the third team mate he has had in 8 seasons and generally accepted he was better/quicker than Button and Rosberg. Secondly its the first time since 2007 that the title is being fought with somewhat equal machinery between two of the big three being discussed here.

Hamilton was 3-3 with Bottas in qualifying and had two awful races in the first 6 weekends, he wasn't looking good in a legacy sense just a few months ago. However, if his form continues then it will just go down as a 2 race blip in a very strong season.

Vettel delivered perfection in the first 5 races and has since been matched by Kimi in qualifying and had 3 races that weren't at the level of his first 5 but overall it is also a very strong season.

In terms of who goes down as the best, I think Hamilton has gone up a little this season due to beating a new team mate who was reasonably promising. Vettel stays at the same high level but with an ageing Kimi, the next test for Vettel is his next team mate. If Verstappen joined Ferrari and Vettel comfortably beat him I could see him rising to the top of a lot of peoples list, the other way round and Vettel will no doubt fall.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:34 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
...My opening thread made no pretenses about Hamilton's poor form in earlier seasons, problems with his attitude, focus etc... the point I was trying to make is that this season Hamilton appears to have addressed many of the chinks in his armour from his early career - and even some of the problems affecting his focus from 2014-2016, and it was those elements that I felt were holding his potential legacy back.

I'm just wondering how you determine that, though? He's still driving one of the best cars, so how do you measure? If it's vs his teammate, then Vettel's beating his by a comfortably bigger margin (not putting any claims of G.O.A.T. Vettel's way, just using him for purposes of illustration), so what makes what Lewis is doing particularly special? It's not like he's had to overcome any obstacles?

Hamilton's biggest weakness, that afflicted his 2011 season, was how he would often be absent on weekends, typically those where his car was not on the pace. It's what Button remarked about being the biggest difference between Alonso and Hamilton, Alonso never had those weekends whether they were fighting for a high points position or for 15th.

This season, and I think it is down to two reasons - the Ferrari being a roughly equivalent car (some circuits it's ahead, others Merc is, like the 07/08 seasons) means that Hamilton realises to get the championship he does need to maximise even if he can't win. The other factor I think is that he was beaten by Rosberg in 2016, and not just in a fluke final race, that Rosberg got a substantial enough lead he could just follow Hamilton home for the final few races.

Hamilton has no doubt in his mind in his belief he is better than Rosberg, and I feel that he felt whatever happened he'd be able to beat Rosberg over a season, so let his focus drift. We saw less of it in 2015 after it went to the wire in 2014, but as soon as he'd clinched the championship, Hamilton went into autopilot for the final races of the seasons (assuming Merc didn't instruct him to let Rosberg win the final few races, but I don't think that's the case,
I think Hamilton was just cruising)

This season we've not seen the 'absent' Hamilton of seasons past, and in Singapore I thought we were going to, it was a typical 'absent Hamilton' set up.
Merc unable to challenge, guaranteed 5th/6th due to the gap to the gap Merc found itself in between Red Bull/Ferrari and the rest. But he was on it as much as Vettel was, demonstrated by the gap he had to Bottas in qualifying and then by the performance in the race. And while there have been some races that Bottas had a slight edge over him, he hasn't been mopey about it like he used to get in previous years.

By the same token, though, Vettel was usually talked of as being the driver of the first half of the season, which means that Hamilton is really being assessed on the last few races. Is that enough to consider him for best of his generation? How is it better than, say, what Vettel did in 2012?

I still think the car tends to colour most people's judgements. Hamilton is driving the best car this year, particularly when it comes to giving him a qualifying edge, which is vitally important. He's putting it where it needs to be, to be fair to him, but we'd expect one of the best of his generation - which he undoubtedly is - to do that, anyway. I'm not convinced Vettel could have gotten any better results than he has done. Nor Alonso, for that matter. I wouldn't dispute that Hamilton is doing well, but I don't see anything that makes him stand out from the other multiple WDCs. I really don't get the hyperbole that tends to accompany him.


Its surely 2007-2016, plus what the have done in 2017. 2017 is pivotal for Hamilton in terms of how good he goes down because he firstly has a new team mate and is still in his prime and that is the main thing you can judge a driver by. Its also only the third team mate he has had in 8 seasons and generally accepted he was better/quicker than Button and Rosberg. Secondly its the first time since 2007 that the title is being fought with somewhat equal machinery between two of the big three being discussed here.

Hamilton was 3-3 with Bottas in qualifying and had two awful races in the first 6 weekends, he wasn't looking good in a legacy sense just a few months ago. However, if his form continues then it will just go down as a 2 race blip in a very strong season.

Vettel delivered perfection in the first 5 races and has since been matched by Kimi in qualifying and had 3 races that weren't at the level of his first 5 but overall it is also a very strong season.

In terms of who goes down as the best, I think Hamilton has gone up a little this season due to beating a new team mate who was reasonably promising. Vettel stays at the same high level but with an ageing Kimi, the next test for Vettel is his next team mate. If Verstappen joined Ferrari and Vettel comfortably beat him I could see him rising to the top of a lot of peoples list, the other way round and Vettel will no doubt fall.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that with relative performances fluctuating this season, what grounds are there to nominate anyone as the best of their generation? i.e. why would this year be the clincher over past years, when this year hasn't shown consistent dominance (in driving, not car/driver package)?

Other than the conclusion, I don't find much to disagree with in your post


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:54 am 
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"Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?"

No.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:18 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

He didn't "miss an open goal". He got beat by a superior car. It would have been a missed open goal from Bottas if he did anything but win that race.

It's like me claiming that Hamilton "missed an open goal" when Vettel had steering wheel problems in Hungary.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:30 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

He didn't "miss an open goal". He got beat by a superior car. It would have been a missed open goal from Bottas if he did anything but win that race.

It's like me claiming that Hamilton "missed an open goal" when Vettel had steering wheel problems in Hungary.

I'm inclined to believe that Vettel just underperformed yet again as he did when he got out qualified by Kimi over the season last year and again this year in Monaco and Silverstone. Once again people glossing over Vettel's failures blaming the car. Ferrari have produced an excellent car this year and I can believe that were it Ricciardo in that car in Austria he would have found the .043 required for pole.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:05 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

He didn't "miss an open goal". He got beat by a superior car. It would have been a missed open goal from Bottas if he did anything but win that race.

It's like me claiming that Hamilton "missed an open goal" when Vettel had steering wheel problems in Hungary.

I'm inclined to believe that Vettel just underperformed yet again as he did when he got out qualified by Kimi over the season last year and again this year in Monaco and Silverstone. Once again people glossing over Vettel's failures blaming the car. Ferrari have produced an excellent car this year and I can believe that were it Ricciardo in that car in Austria he would have found the .043 required for pole.

Of course, it's always possible. But there again he beat his team mate by half a second, so there's an argument to say that he got the absolute maximum possible. I don't think there's any evidence that there was under-performance in Austria

Silverstone, yes. I think he was below par there


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:15 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
"Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?"

No.


I like a detailed and comprehensive answer like this!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:42 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

He didn't "miss an open goal". He got beat by a superior car. It would have been a missed open goal from Bottas if he did anything but win that race.

It's like me claiming that Hamilton "missed an open goal" when Vettel had steering wheel problems in Hungary.

I'm inclined to believe that Vettel just underperformed yet again as he did when he got out qualified by Kimi over the season last year and again this year in Monaco and Silverstone. Once again people glossing over Vettel's failures blaming the car. Ferrari have produced an excellent car this year and I can believe that were it Ricciardo in that car in Austria he would have found the .043 required for pole.

And if Hamilton had beat Bottas by 0.3 seconds Hungary (less than Vettel did to Raikkonen in Austria), he would have been on pole too; and then he would have won easily thanks to Vettel's steering issues on Sunday.

Take off your biased glasses, it's delusional to fault Vettel for Austria. Mercedes was very clearly the car to have that weekend.


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