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Whose fault is it anyway?
Vettel 60%  60%  [ 90 ]
Verstappen 11%  11%  [ 16 ]
Raikkonen 4%  4%  [ 6 ]
Racing Incident 25%  25%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 149
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:53 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Max said, with his words that Kimi moved right and then Seb moved left.

So my question is, if we all know that didn't happen like that, why is he saying it like that ?

This is how I saw it. Kimi had a car's width room on the left, but started moving right because he would never be able to take the corner at a 90 degree angle. He would have to brake, let Max take the corner first and in that proces risk losing many more positions. While moving right he expected Max to move right also, but he had no room to do so.


to me it seems max is moving left almost imediatelly after the start.

by the time vettel starts cutting across, Max was already going left towards Kimi. This is my problem actually, that Max was going left anyway to cover Kimi, and made a poor judgement and hit him.

Kimi had such momentum that Verstappen would have never made the corner first.


Verstappen is going left because that's the direction Vettel is pushing him.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:39 pm 
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I have to ask this question, if Vettel was not a title contender will the people blaming him still blame him?

As there nothing wrong with the move and Hamilton did same with Stroll last race.

Because it seems we are back to post baku where every man and his dog is blaming Vettel should he have waited and said after you to all concerned?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:18 pm 
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What's triggering all this hatred is not that Vettel is a title contender.
It's the fact that the man is a 4 time WC, and still acts like a little boy sometimes. But I agree, title contender or not, out of proportion, it was just a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:33 pm 
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No-one on this forum started the criticism off, it was actually Max Verstappen who first mentioned it!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
I have to ask this question, if Vettel was not a title contender will the people blaming him still blame him?

As there nothing wrong with the move and Hamilton did same with Stroll last race.

Because it seems we are back to post baku where every man and his dog is blaming Vettel should he have waited and said after you to all concerned?

Actually what Hamilton did was quite different. When he moved over on Stroll, he was clear of him and there was no other car alongside him. Perhaps it's not possible for a driver to know exactly what's going on behind him but by moving over so late on the run up to the first corner, Vettel increased the chances that other cars would be there. Hamilton's move basically came right away as soon as they pulled out of the grid spots. Hamilton was also on a dry track in relatively predictable conditions while Vettel made an aggressive move several seconds after the start and in wet conditions at night.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:15 pm 
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Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Also Vettel appeared to keep closing the gap in Singapore, with seemingly little regard for how max reacts or can react. Is that really the same as Monza? I assume not give they didn't come together there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.

Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Reading some of the comments here leaves me somewhat puzzled ...

Why is it, that the same people who think, that a faultless Verstappen may have not been aware of the fast approaching Raikonnen assume, that a dumb Vettel lacked spacial awareness, because he wasn't able sense Raikonnen from his position with a car between him and Raikonnen in a split second?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.

Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 pm 
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zaar wrote:
Reading some of the comments here leaves me somewhat puzzled ...

Why is it, that the same people who think, that a faultless Verstappen may have not been aware of the fast approaching Raikonnen assume, that a dumb Vettel lacked spacial awareness, because he wasn't able sense Raikonnen from his position with a car between him and Raikonnen in a split second?

Because the angle at which Vettel dove in was always gonna hurt someone. Closing a gap is ok when your in front, not when your backwheels are still next to him. On top of that, it’s a big risk in the rain and dark to cross the track like that, whilst all Vettel had be concerned about was keeping that Silver rocketship behind him. So yes, that’s dumb.

Feel for Verstappen. Had a real shot at podium or even winning this one after his DNF streak.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:20 pm 
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one thing you will very very rarely do on a forum is change someones mind. vettel fans will defend him on this. thats up to them. i get the sense that they are desperate to try and paper over the quite major flaw in his character (again) by making light of this. he is further damaging his reputation after all.

facts are though that every former driver, pundit, vote, or article i have seen has blamed vettel and pretty much said he was stupid and too aggressive. funnily enough i bet pretty much everybody who isnt a vettel fan on here blame him. case closed really.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:56 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.

Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

As Hamilton himself said you can't quite see what's happening behind you. He also said it's a fairly standard move. It's all very well for us with the benefit of both TV and hindsight but how much exact information with regards to positioning do you think the drivers have when they are fighting for position in the chaos of a start? I suspect close to zero


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
one thing you will very very rarely do on a forum is change someones mind. vettel fans will defend him on this. thats up to them. i get the sense that they are desperate to try and paper over the quite major flaw in his character (again) by making light of this. he is further damaging his reputation after all.

facts are though that every former driver, pundit, vote, or article i have seen has blamed vettel and pretty much said he was stupid and too aggressive. funnily enough i bet pretty much everybody who isnt a vettel fan on here blame him. case closed really.

Sorry, but I think this is a daft post. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't make them desperate, but it does make you look desperate to put others down just because they think differently.

People have different views, it's fine. Trying to discredit others doesn't make your own position look any better


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
zaar wrote:
Reading some of the comments here leaves me somewhat puzzled ...

Why is it, that the same people who think, that a faultless Verstappen may have not been aware of the fast approaching Raikonnen assume, that a dumb Vettel lacked spacial awareness, because he wasn't able sense Raikonnen from his position with a car between him and Raikonnen in a split second?

Because the angle at which Vettel dove in was always gonna hurt someone. Closing a gap is ok when your in front, not when your backwheels are still next to him. On top of that, it’s a big risk in the rain and dark to cross the track like that, whilst all Vettel had be concerned about was keeping that Silver rocketship behind him. So yes, that’s dumb.

Feel for Verstappen. Had a real shot at podium or even winning this one after his DNF streak.

No it wasn't, because he didn't hurt anyone. You're making it sound as though he collided with one of the others, which was not the case


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.

Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

As Hamilton himself said you can't quite see what's happening behind you. He also said it's a fairly standard move. It's all very well for us with the benefit of both TV and hindsight but how much exact information with regards to positioning do you think the drivers have when they are fighting for position in the chaos of a start? I suspect close to zero


That makes it even worse. Hamilton headed in the direction of Stroll from the moment the lights went out. Vettel seemed to decide what he was doing after a poor start in the rain and probably didn't have much idea of where Max was. Poor decision making in my opinion. Just seemed overly aggressive and he was never all the way in front, it's a risk.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 pm 
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All three on boards together in real time -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ8aCy7qIPI

Judging by the gear changers, Kimi was going into the lead he was travelling a lot quicker than the other 2.

With the screen brightness so high, some interesting things on the screens. SC comes up on the dash and immediately a delta time comes up they have to keep too. Pretty neat.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:48 pm 
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There have been several posts saying the respective drivers had minimal knowledge of the location of the other drivers involved because the mirrors are both small and poorly located.
Is there any reason why with the size and resolution of camera technology why the drivers cant have practically 360 vision via camera. The clip above gives footage for consumption on youtube, why on earth can't the guys who might be involved in a high speed collision be given sight of the cars around them.
At least that eliminates the excuse...."I didn't see him."


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:04 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
There have been several posts saying the respective drivers had minimal knowledge of the location of the other drivers involved because the mirrors are both small and poorly located.
Is there any reason why with the size and resolution of camera technology why the drivers cant have practically 360 vision via camera. The clip above gives footage for consumption on youtube, why on earth can't the guys who might be involved in a high speed collision be given sight of the cars around them.
At least that eliminates the excuse...."I didn't see him."

I have always wondered why this hasn't been implemented or at least some kind of laser/radar and beeps in the ear if a car approaches either side of you. I guess weight is key.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:47 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
trento wrote:
stranger wrote:
Whilst Verstappen & Raikkonen made contact first, this was only due to Verstappen being squeezed by Vettel. Vettel tried the old grid start trick by storming across hoping to cut in front of all opponents. He must not have realised Max & Kimi were already alongside though so the misjudgement cost them all a DNF. Vettel caused it.

If Max did not first go into Kimi (to avoid Seb), Seb would have hit him.

Also if you watch carefully, Max still had about half a car length alongside Vettel, so he was not at all 'behind', and Vettel still ended up driving further across into Kimi & Max even after the 2 had collided.

Some say its 50% Vettel's fault, some 80%, some others more or less.

For me its 100% Vettel's fault because there would have been no incident if it wasn't for Vettel, and its obviously a driver error to drive into cars which you are still alongside with.


Replay shows Vettel cutting across Max in front successfully. Max seemed to slow down to take avoiding action but did not steer left towards Kimi at all.


The pictures below your post clearly show the chop wasn't successful.


After watching the slomo video & seeing all the pictures its even more clear that Verstappen was sandwiched by Vettel driving in towards both him & Kimi. Vettel's car had not fully cleared Verstappen's, ... at the very least Max's nose was still alongside Seb's car so obviously a massive stuff-up from Vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:31 am 
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lamo wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
There have been several posts saying the respective drivers had minimal knowledge of the location of the other drivers involved because the mirrors are both small and poorly located.
Is there any reason why with the size and resolution of camera technology why the drivers cant have practically 360 vision via camera. The clip above gives footage for consumption on youtube, why on earth can't the guys who might be involved in a high speed collision be given sight of the cars around them.
At least that eliminates the excuse...."I didn't see him."

I have always wondered why this hasn't been implemented or at least some kind of laser/radar and beeps in the ear if a car approaches either side of you. I guess weight is key.


Yes I wondered about weight, however, it is already there in some form for the in/on car images as evidenced above. Screens on phones aren't that heavy though are they?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:01 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Surely the biggest difference to Monza is that there was no contact there, among others. If there had been then I'm sure people on this forum would have tried to assign blame. And nothing I have read is particularly critical of seb. Most are just questioning his judgement and it is certainly not black and white.

Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

As Hamilton himself said you can't quite see what's happening behind you. He also said it's a fairly standard move. It's all very well for us with the benefit of both TV and hindsight but how much exact information with regards to positioning do you think the drivers have when they are fighting for position in the chaos of a start? I suspect close to zero


That makes it even worse. Hamilton headed in the direction of Stroll from the moment the lights went out. Vettel seemed to decide what he was doing after a poor start in the rain and probably didn't have much idea of where Max was. Poor decision making in my opinion. Just seemed overly aggressive and he was never all the way in front, it's a risk.

I don't see how. All he had to worry about was hitting Max and he was never in danger of doing so. So in that respect his move was successful. If Kimi hadn't been there everybody would probably be talking about that as the moment where Vettel kept the lead of the Grand Prix and put him back ahead in the title hunt. Storm in a teacup


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Thing is though there was no contact from Vettel: it all happened behind him and he got caught up in the aftermath. Hamilton couldn't have known that everyone behind him would keep it clean, in much the same way Vettel couldn't have known they wouldn't. They are very similar circumstances, which is probably why Lewis is coming out more or less in Vettel's defence...


I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

As Hamilton himself said you can't quite see what's happening behind you. He also said it's a fairly standard move. It's all very well for us with the benefit of both TV and hindsight but how much exact information with regards to positioning do you think the drivers have when they are fighting for position in the chaos of a start? I suspect close to zero


That makes it even worse. Hamilton headed in the direction of Stroll from the moment the lights went out. Vettel seemed to decide what he was doing after a poor start in the rain and probably didn't have much idea of where Max was. Poor decision making in my opinion. Just seemed overly aggressive and he was never all the way in front, it's a risk.

I don't see how. All he had to worry about was hitting Max and he was never in danger of doing so. So in that respect his move was successful. If Kimi hadn't been there everybody would probably be talking about that as the moment where Vettel kept the lead of the Grand Prix and put him back ahead in the title hunt. Storm in a teacup


He was never fully ahead of Max though so he could have hit him. If Max suddenly disappeared he would have hit Kimi. I just think it was a reaction to a bad start which probably didn't help the situation and it was badly executed.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:34 am 
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lamo wrote:
All three on boards together in real time -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ8aCy7qIPI

Judging by the gear changers, Kimi was going into the lead he was travelling a lot quicker than the other 2.

With the screen brightness so high, some interesting things on the screens. SC comes up on the dash and immediately a delta time comes up they have to keep too. Pretty neat.
:thumbup:

I can't help but wonder what would have happened, had the cars and tyres not been made wider. Could the drivers still be "thinking" in terms of the narrower cars they were used to?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 am 
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if vettel had vanished, max and kimi would have still touched, and would have spun kimi round.

I still need to understand all the parts logic.

Max version and people claiming Vettel squeezed Max - Can someone actually point out exactly what he thinks happend ?

My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi, but Kimi didn't move for the squeeze, hence he touched Kimi. When you're squeezing someone and he goes along, all is fine, when you do it and he doesn't move and you touch, it's totally your fault.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:54 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi.....


Nope, he went to the left to avoid Vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:58 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
one thing you will very very rarely do on a forum is change someones mind. vettel fans will defend him on this. thats up to them. i get the sense that they are desperate to try and paper over the quite major flaw in his character (again) by making light of this. he is further damaging his reputation after all.

facts are though that every former driver, pundit, vote, or article i have seen has blamed vettel and pretty much said he was stupid and too aggressive. funnily enough i bet pretty much everybody who isnt a vettel fan on here blame him. case closed really.

Sorry, but I think this is a daft post. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't make them desperate, but it does make you look desperate to put others down just because they think differently.

People have different views, it's fine. Trying to discredit others doesn't make your own position look any better


sorry but your post is just daft. my opinion is they are desperate. how exactly is this putting them down. trying to discredit me doesnt make your own position look better.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:03 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
if vettel had vanished, max and kimi would have still touched, and would have spun kimi round.

I still need to understand all the parts logic.

Max version and people claiming Vettel squeezed Max - Can someone actually point out exactly what he thinks happend ?

My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi, but Kimi didn't move for the squeeze, hence he touched Kimi. When you're squeezing someone and he goes along, all is fine, when you do it and he doesn't move and you touch, it's totally your fault.


Pretty easy really, if Vettel vanishes then Max and Kimi don't collide.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:11 am 
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Lojik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi.....


Nope, he went to the left to avoid Vettel.
He did, I believe, but after first having opened the door to his left by moving towards Vettel. And then being surprised someone actually came through on his left.
Those putting the blame fully on Vettel don't read Max's actions properly.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:56 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Lojik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi.....


Nope, he went to the left to avoid Vettel.
He did, I believe, but after first having opened the door to his left by moving towards Vettel. And then being surprised someone actually came through on his left.
Those putting the blame fully on Vettel don't read Max's actions properly.

His movement to the left had nothing to do with Kimi. And once Kimi appeared, Max backed off. But it was all too late

If Max didn't move to the left he would have speared Vettel straight on. THEN all of the arguments about him being unable to give up a position or being dangerous or whatever would have been valid

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:16 am 
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One thing people overlooked was Kimi continuing after being hit, then realising he could not steer the car. This was important as he then hit Max, who hit Alonso. Had Kimi stopped, at least one other car could still carry on.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:43 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
(Seb) was never fully ahead of Max though so he could have hit him. If Max suddenly disappeared he would have hit Kimi. I just think it was a reaction to a bad start which probably didn't help the situation and it was badly executed.
I would not assume that Seb would have hit Kimi had Max not been there.
Seb tried to cover off Max with a squeeze but didn't hit him. Unfortunately, Kimi happened to be in the spot (that one car's width) that Seb was hoping to squeeze Max into. Take Max out of the equation and Seb would have simply been trying to squeeze Kimi but - I assume - would have given Kimi one car's width as well.
Aim being to either encourage the driver to back off or to tighten the cornering angle and force him to go into / through it slower (again, assumption on my part).
I don't really think that, in the moment, any of the three drivers involved did anything wrong. Hindsight is what it is.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Image

seb in 2nd gear at the start??


on second thought...in the following video it still shows the same numbers 2 and 34 even when he is standing still before the let go..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ8aCy7qIPI


Last edited by MEGAS on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:34 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Lojik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
My logic in blaming Verstapen is quite simple :

He went left to cover Kimi.....


Nope, he went to the left to avoid Vettel.
He did, I believe, but after first having opened the door to his left by moving towards Vettel. And then being surprised someone actually came through on his left.
Those putting the blame fully on Vettel don't read Max's actions properly.

His movement to the left had nothing to do with Kimi. And once Kimi appeared, Max backed off. But it was all too late

If Max didn't move to the left he would have speared Vettel straight on. THEN all of the arguments about him being unable to give up a position or being dangerous or whatever would have been valid


Image

This is how I see it. at this point verstappen was going left already. This does not look like someone getting away from Vettel, rather someone covering for another driver. .

For the second part, if Max had kept his line and Vettel would have steered into him, it would be all Vettel's fault. I never heard someone being blammed cause another driver steered into him.

For the squeeze part, if a crash happens, it is the one who squeezes at fault, not the other one.

I repeat, I don't think Max did it intentionally, but he misjudged. But, because Vettel steered so much towards him, it's a good moment not to admit your mistake.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:38 pm 
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MEGAS wrote:
(Picture of Kimi's and Seb's steering wheels - Kimi in 1st gear and Seb in 2nd)
seb in 2nd gear at the start??
Supposedly for better traction off the line in the wet. Apparently, Lewis did the same.
It's obvious that Kimi managed his take-off a lot better than Seb though, never mind the offset in gear selection between the two.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
one thing you will very very rarely do on a forum is change someones mind. vettel fans will defend him on this. thats up to them. i get the sense that they are desperate to try and paper over the quite major flaw in his character (again) by making light of this. he is further damaging his reputation after all.

facts are though that every former driver, pundit, vote, or article i have seen has blamed vettel and pretty much said he was stupid and too aggressive. funnily enough i bet pretty much everybody who isnt a vettel fan on here blame him. case closed really.

Sorry, but I think this is a daft post. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't make them desperate, but it does make you look desperate to put others down just because they think differently.

People have different views, it's fine. Trying to discredit others doesn't make your own position look any better


sorry but your post is just daft. my opinion is they are desperate. how exactly is this putting them down. trying to discredit me doesnt make your own position look better.

Because you are lumping everyone together and making assumptions out of nothing simply because you don't agree with their stance. You're attacking the poster(s), not the post(s). I'm discrediting the idea that you can make such a sweeping statement


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:55 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

I can't see how there similar. Hamilton moved of the line and was always moving towards Stroll. Vettel moved off the line realised he had a poor start and basically thought he would risk moving over later. Hamilton was in front of Stroll and Vettel wasn't in front of Max.

As Hamilton himself said you can't quite see what's happening behind you. He also said it's a fairly standard move. It's all very well for us with the benefit of both TV and hindsight but how much exact information with regards to positioning do you think the drivers have when they are fighting for position in the chaos of a start? I suspect close to zero


That makes it even worse. Hamilton headed in the direction of Stroll from the moment the lights went out. Vettel seemed to decide what he was doing after a poor start in the rain and probably didn't have much idea of where Max was. Poor decision making in my opinion. Just seemed overly aggressive and he was never all the way in front, it's a risk.

I don't see how. All he had to worry about was hitting Max and he was never in danger of doing so. So in that respect his move was successful. If Kimi hadn't been there everybody would probably be talking about that as the moment where Vettel kept the lead of the Grand Prix and put him back ahead in the title hunt. Storm in a teacup


He was never fully ahead of Max though so he could have hit him. If Max suddenly disappeared he would have hit Kimi. I just think it was a reaction to a bad start which probably didn't help the situation and it was badly executed.

"Could have" is not really relevant, though. Drivers "could" hit each other every time they try to crowd them off the track or pull off a daring move, but usually they don't. Vettel certainly tried to force Verstappen into backing off, but that in itself is not problematic.

The more I look at it, it's Kimi that doesn't give Max any room and steers slightly towards him just before the crash. I can see why he's trying to push Max back, as he's attempting to give himself space to take the corner, but he had plenty of room on his left and didn't really need to crowd Max so much. I'm not saying it was a stupid move, but with Vettel being there it left Max nowhere to go.

Bottom line is that it was the "three is a crowd" scenario that caused the accident, not necessarily the actions of one driver. It only looks stupid in retrospect, but that's because of circumstance.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I think the view from Hamilton's car is pretty damning for Vettel. He really moved over very aggressively and did so very late in the run up to the first corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm94AlF0xNY

Again, it wasn't a crazy move but it sure was risky and at the very least you must point that out. To be a bit harsher, you might say that he moved all the way across the track with no reasonable way to know that he could do so safely.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:32 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Kimi lost situational awareness with his fantastic start. Approaching Max on the 'outside' he had to understand that Vettel was to the 'inside' of Max and that Max would have to respond to any move toward the 'outside' the Vettel made. Kimi put himself knowingly in no mans land and all three + Alonso paid the price.

Great Starts have to be completed to be a GREAT START. Kimi didn't complete.

Seriously? What are you talking about?

Max dives down the inside OFF-TRACK last year and it was hailed by many as Brilliant, Raikkonen does it PERFECTLY and he harbors blame?
Dudes stop drinking whatever water you've been consuming.

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HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
Watching the video again, I think Verstappen also has to take some blame.

The initial contact was Kimi's right rear wheel with Vertstappen's front left wheel. This happened because Verstappen was moving across on Kimi (who was running out of room).

Yes, Verstappen was reacting to Vettel, but there was no contact with Vettel until Verstappen & Kimi collided, spinning Kimi into Vettel's car.

Verstappen could have stayed in a straight line, Vettel was almost past him by the time the impact happened.

It's very difficult and they had such little time to react and make decisions, but Vettel wasn't the only driver to blame.

In all honesty, I'd say Kimi has to take more blame than Max. He made a superb start, but if you look at the videos he was crowding Max when he didn't really need to: he still had plenty of space on the inside. Just before the accident, he makes a slight move to his right, presumably trying to force Max further away from the upcoming corner apex. It's a very small correction, but Max was too close at the time and they came together.

edit: don't know my left from my right...

Kimi had a clear line of sight and he SAW Vettel WAY off to the right and with the door left open as it was, he had every right to do precisely as he did. With all that room you'd have to be a village idiot not to do precisely what Kimi did.

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HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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