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Driver of the weekend: Singapore GP
Poll ended at Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:57 pm
Hamilton 66%  66%  [ 38 ]
Bottas 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Raikkonen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ricciardo 16%  16%  [ 9 ]
Verstappen 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Massa 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Perez 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ocon 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sainz 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Kvyat 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Palmer 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Alonso 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Vandoorne 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ericsson 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Wehrlein 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 58
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Childish Siao7.

No, but Hamilton started karting as late as eight years of age. Vettel at 3, Alonso 3, M. Schumacher 4, to give a few examples.
Then I found Senna started at 13, and Prost somewhere in his teens so perhaps Hamilton is not the most naturally talented ever as I first questioned, judging by when drivers started karting.
He didn't come from a rich family either and had to rely solely on his talent to take him further through the ranks. No money or a famous lastname to help him out.

Edit: Also note that I didn't say I think he is the best ever, or the best in this current generation either. I would still rate Alonso as the best but Hamilton is a very close second, soon to be tied #1.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton. I'm starting to wonder, is he the most naturaly talented ever?


No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.

In terms of natural talent, I look at it like this; I remember seeing both from Senna and Schumacher when they were at the height of their careers that they could often just jump in the car and immediately be very quick even in a situation that was unpredictable such as when the rain starts to fall or some other challenge. With Hamilton, this is something that you see quite consistently. He often is able to get into the car and instantly be extremely quick in situations where other drivers take a couple of laps to get up to speed. Qualifying at Monza was a recent example of this and the race in Singapore was another one. At Monza he seemed to be able to instantly push the car to the limit without the feeling out period. Sort of like his performance during the race at Monza in 2008 or Silverstone in 2008. Even this last race in Singapore he seemed to be able to adapt to racing in the wet at night very quickly. Red Bull were faster all weekend but in the race, under those new conditions, it seemed Lewis was able to adapt right away while Ricciardo was slower by comparison and Bottas was absolutely nowhere in the same car.

There are times where he is just able to really gap the field with his performance in those circumstances. Also in hearing quotes from his teammates, it seems that they all acknowledge that going faster than him was a monumental task and sometimes simply not possible. Top drivers like Button and Rosberg have often been left way behind and even in his rookie year, he was able to best Alonso. In terms of raw speed, I think Hamilton is as fast or faster than anyone who's ever done this and in terms of racing instincts, overtaking and defending, he is also at the top level. I think Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso have perhaps displayed slightly better consistency when in top cars but in terms of ceiling, I think Lewis has a higher one than those three.

The other drivers who comes to mind in terms of talent are Alonso, Dan and young Max. Vettel seems to me to have just a touch less innate talent. I've always felt that Vettel's biggest strength is his consistency (especially when he's clicking with the car). Both Alonso and Dan have a really good balance of raw ability and consistency. Max is all talent and still needs polishing (this season will be good for him in the long run).

But long story short; I agree that Hamilton has an extremely high level of innate ability. I remember reading this story about braking and I think it helps shed some light on this topic.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... vs-alonso/


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Childish Siao7.

No, but Hamilton started karting as late as eight years of age. Vettel at 3, Alonso 3, M. Schumacher 4, to give a few examples.
Then I found Senna started at 13, and Prost somewhere in his teens so perhaps Hamilton is not the most naturally talented ever as I first questioned, judging by when drivers started karting.
He didn't come from a rich family either and had to rely solely on his talent to take him further through the ranks. No money or a famous lastname to help him out.

Edit: Also note that I didn't say I think he is the best ever, or the best in this current generation either. I would still rate Alonso as the best but Hamilton is a very close second, soon to be tied #1.

Childish maybe, with a lot of truth in it.

If you try and measure talent by the age of when they started, then Hill and Villeneuve must be so much better than anyone else. WDC while starting way too old for F1.

Apart from Senna, which other top driver had rich parents? Schumacher senior was doing two jobs to make ends meet. Alonso and Vettel weren't born in riches either. Can't vouch for Fangio's dad...

Fiki's question still stands though. How do you measure natural talent?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Lewis. Monstered his teammate in Qualy then won from 5th without putting a wheel out of place the whole race. Just brilliant.


Hamilton did everything, but you can't ignore the fact that three people in front of him were out at the first corner and claim it as 'brilliant'... surely you can see there was a little luck involved?


You cant control what others do.
His wet weather pace over Danny was brilliant IMO.
Who else really challenged his performance for DOTW.


Ricciardo had a gearbox issue. I'm not disputing that Hamilton made the best of it and others didn't, but I can't reconcile that as being brilliant. There are plenty of examples of Lewis being 'brilliant' and this wasn't one of them, claiming it as such devalues other, better performances.


Over a second a lap faster than your team mate is pretty brilliant...


Yeah, fair enough, but Bottas was pretty useless yesterday.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:04 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton. I'm starting to wonder, is he the most naturaly talented ever?


No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.


I think it's only difficult if you think he's just shown up over the past 3 years. He beat Rosberg at least once every year of the turbo era on pace despite mammoth gaps in car performance. He beat JB as convincingly as Lewis did. He's beating Vandoorne impressively. He's not got into any more tangles than Lewis or Seb has at the front despite being in constant traffic with worse drivers in worse cars. He's had numerous stand out drives and quali laps to go with those great starts and he's been doing it all while driving around severe car problems from the PU with the most fuel saving to be done to boot.

That's not just showing up. What he lacks is results and it's not a spec series and he's been in cars too far away so it rightly hasn't hurt his reputation that he hasn't had results. It would have hurt if he'd done none of the above and was driving poorly and getting beat.

I actually agree about most of what you wrote that I snipped about Lewis fwiw. I like both and I struggle to separate them generally but I just think you're either being way too harsh or you've simply not been watching back there if you think Alonso has simply been going through the motions and turning up these past 3 years. If he has been but still done all the above then he's the GOAT by a country mile if he's been doing all that in 1st gear.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Lewis DOTW.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton. I'm starting to wonder, is he the most naturaly talented ever?


No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.

In terms of natural talent, I look at it like this; I remember seeing both from Senna and Schumacher when they were at the height of their careers that they could often just jump in the car and immediately be very quick even in a situation that was unpredictable such as when the rain starts to fall or some other challenge. With Hamilton, this is something that you see quite consistently. He often is able to get into the car and instantly be extremely quick in situations where other drivers take a couple of laps to get up to speed. Qualifying at Monza was a recent example of this and the race in Singapore was another one. At Monza he seemed to be able to instantly push the car to the limit without the feeling out period. Sort of like his performance during the race at Monza in 2008 or Silverstone in 2008. Even this last race in Singapore he seemed to be able to adapt to racing in the wet at night very quickly. Red Bull were faster all weekend but in the race, under those new conditions, it seemed Lewis was able to adapt right away while Ricciardo was slower by comparison and Bottas was absolutely nowhere in the same car.

There are times where he is just able to really gap the field with his performance in those circumstances. Also in hearing quotes from his teammates, it seems that they all acknowledge that going faster than him was a monumental task and sometimes simply not possible. Top drivers like Button and Rosberg have often been left way behind and even in his rookie year, he was able to best Alonso. In terms of raw speed, I think Hamilton is as fast or faster than anyone who's ever done this and in terms of racing instincts, overtaking and defending, he is also at the top level. I think Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso have perhaps displayed slightly better consistency when in top cars but in terms of ceiling, I think Lewis has a higher one than those three.

The other drivers who comes to mind in terms of talent are Alonso, Dan and young Max. Vettel seems to me to have just a touch less innate talent. I've always felt that Vettel's biggest strength is his consistency (especially when he's clicking with the car). Both Alonso and Dan have a really good balance of raw ability and consistency. Max is all talent and still needs polishing (this season will be good for him in the long run).

But long story short; I agree that Hamilton has an extremely high level of innate ability. I remember reading this story about braking and I think it helps shed some light on this topic.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... vs-alonso/

Jenson Button has talked about Alonso being a tougher challenge on race day. In his opinion Alonso has no big weaknesses. He said that Hamilton could sometimes go missing, whereas Alonso is relentless

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton. I'm starting to wonder, is he the most naturaly talented ever?


No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.


I think it's only difficult if you think he's just shown up over the past 3 years. He beat Rosberg at least once every year of the turbo era on pace despite mammoth gaps in car performance. He beat JB as convincingly as Lewis did. He's beating Vandoorne impressively. He's not got into any more tangles than Lewis or Seb has at the front despite being in constant traffic with worse drivers in worse cars. He's had numerous stand out drives and quali laps to go with those great starts and he's been doing it all while driving around severe car problems from the PU with the most fuel saving to be done to boot.

That's not just showing up. What he lacks is results and it's not a spec series and he's been in cars too far away so it rightly hasn't hurt his reputation that he hasn't had results. It would have hurt if he'd done none of the above and was driving poorly and getting beat.

I actually agree about most of what you wrote that I snipped about Lewis fwiw. I like both and I struggle to separate them generally but I just think you're either being way too harsh or you've simply not been watching back there if you think Alonso has simply been going through the motions and turning up these past 3 years. If he has been but still done all the above then he's the GOAT by a country mile if he's been doing all that in 1st gear.

Honesly he has had numerous tangles in the pack (which is to be expected). Certainly far more off track excursions and incidents than Hamilton or Vettel. I think he gets phantom credit in these discussions with respect to the Hamiltons and Vettels of the world. Certainly he is in a tough situation at McLaren and cannot be expected to win or anything but it's not like he's managed a podium or some other such off-the-charts result during this time. The car's reliability has been a joke and I am NOT criticizing his driving but I haven't seen anything at McLaren from him that I wouldn't expect from any other top 5 driver were they in the same boat.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:17 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Lewis Hamilton. I'm starting to wonder, is he the most naturaly talented ever?


No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.

In terms of natural talent, I look at it like this; I remember seeing both from Senna and Schumacher when they were at the height of their careers that they could often just jump in the car and immediately be very quick even in a situation that was unpredictable such as when the rain starts to fall or some other challenge. With Hamilton, this is something that you see quite consistently. He often is able to get into the car and instantly be extremely quick in situations where other drivers take a couple of laps to get up to speed. Qualifying at Monza was a recent example of this and the race in Singapore was another one. At Monza he seemed to be able to instantly push the car to the limit without the feeling out period. Sort of like his performance during the race at Monza in 2008 or Silverstone in 2008. Even this last race in Singapore he seemed to be able to adapt to racing in the wet at night very quickly. Red Bull were faster all weekend but in the race, under those new conditions, it seemed Lewis was able to adapt right away while Ricciardo was slower by comparison and Bottas was absolutely nowhere in the same car.

There are times where he is just able to really gap the field with his performance in those circumstances. Also in hearing quotes from his teammates, it seems that they all acknowledge that going faster than him was a monumental task and sometimes simply not possible. Top drivers like Button and Rosberg have often been left way behind and even in his rookie year, he was able to best Alonso. In terms of raw speed, I think Hamilton is as fast or faster than anyone who's ever done this and in terms of racing instincts, overtaking and defending, he is also at the top level. I think Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso have perhaps displayed slightly better consistency when in top cars but in terms of ceiling, I think Lewis has a higher one than those three.

The other drivers who comes to mind in terms of talent are Alonso, Dan and young Max. Vettel seems to me to have just a touch less innate talent. I've always felt that Vettel's biggest strength is his consistency (especially when he's clicking with the car). Both Alonso and Dan have a really good balance of raw ability and consistency. Max is all talent and still needs polishing (this season will be good for him in the long run).

But long story short; I agree that Hamilton has an extremely high level of innate ability. I remember reading this story about braking and I think it helps shed some light on this topic.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... vs-alonso/

Jenson Button has talked about Alonso being a tougher challenge on race day. In his opinion Alonso has no big weaknesses. He said that Hamilton could sometimes go missing, whereas Alonso is relentless

You consistently trot out that quote as though it has some special meaning. One thing we know is not to take comments from drivers as gospel truth. At best they are opinions and at worst there is an agenda behind them. Alonso was Button's teammate at the time so not sure what you expect. Even if that was actually just an honest opinion, it's still just one driver's opinion. There was clearly a larger gap in pace on Saturday between Hamilton and Button than between Alonso and Button. On Sunday's if you take away the second half of 2011, Hamilton was also consistently better. For half a year, Hamilton was completely out to lunch on race days and kept getting caught up in incidents and penalties. It's important to note that the WDC was basically a formality at that point in the year. Alonso and Button had 2 years together but were unable to really even push without the car dying so I'm not sure that their matchup was particularly meaningful. Overall Button narrowly won out in 2015 but Alonso clearly won out in 2016 by a bigger margin. Against Hamilton, Lewis won out in 2010 and Button won out in 2011. The biggest disparity was in 2012 (even though that was the year they were closest in the points). If not for Lewis having two mechanical failures from the lead, having Hulkenberg take him out while leading in Brazil and having so many team mistakes in the pits, he beats Jenson by well over 100 points that year. Button wasn't even close most of the year.

More importantly, why consider anyone's opinion when you have an objective season of them driving the same car to assess...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:29 pm 
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[quote="sandman1347"]
Essentially it's impossible to judge this season. Last season though he finished much higher in the championship than his car should.

Would it be fair to downgrade Alonso just because we can't gauge where he is at the moment? Hardly seems right so assume that he has gotten worse. Personally I rate him now as I did at the end of 2014. The only season since then we can make a judgement on is 2016 where he did really well.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.


I think it's only difficult if you think he's just shown up over the past 3 years. He beat Rosberg at least once every year of the turbo era on pace despite mammoth gaps in car performance. He beat JB as convincingly as Lewis did. He's beating Vandoorne impressively. He's not got into any more tangles than Lewis or Seb has at the front despite being in constant traffic with worse drivers in worse cars. He's had numerous stand out drives and quali laps to go with those great starts and he's been doing it all while driving around severe car problems from the PU with the most fuel saving to be done to boot.

That's not just showing up. What he lacks is results and it's not a spec series and he's been in cars too far away so it rightly hasn't hurt his reputation that he hasn't had results. It would have hurt if he'd done none of the above and was driving poorly and getting beat.

I actually agree about most of what you wrote that I snipped about Lewis fwiw. I like both and I struggle to separate them generally but I just think you're either being way too harsh or you've simply not been watching back there if you think Alonso has simply been going through the motions and turning up these past 3 years. If he has been but still done all the above then he's the GOAT by a country mile if he's been doing all that in 1st gear.

Honesly he has had numerous tangles in the pack (which is to be expected). Certainly far more off track excursions and incidents than Hamilton or Vettel. I think he gets phantom credit in these discussions with respect to the Hamiltons and Vettels of the world. Certainly he is in a tough situation at McLaren and cannot be expected to win or anything but it's not like he's managed a podium or some other such off-the-charts result during this time. The car's reliability has been a joke and I am NOT criticizing his driving but I haven't seen anything at McLaren from him that I wouldn't expect from any other top 5 driver were they in the same boat.


I shouldn't have said he hasn't had more as he does but he hasn't had far more at all, off the top of my head since 2014...

Lewis
Contact-Spa 2014,Hungary 2015,Bahrain 2016,Spain 2016,Austria 2016 and something with Nasr in 2016 I can't remember where
Spin-Brazil 2014 or 15(?), Hungary 2014

8

Seb
Contact-Spa 2016,Malaysia 2016,Russia 2016,Mexico 2015,Sing 2017
Spin-Brazil 2016

6

Alonso
Contact-GB 2015,AD 2015,??? 2015,Australia 2016.Austria 2017,Sing 2017
Spins- GB 2016,Bra 2016,Hun 2016

9 (The 2015 contact is escaping me but I know he had 3 because I remember writing 3 spins in 2016 and 3 contacts in 2015 in another discussion lol)

Those are off the top of my head and I'm sure I've missed a couple for all of them but it's hardly going to make it lopsided and as you say someone back there should be having far more. I dunno why I even wrote that in the first place to be honest because it's as much down to others as it is them.

What phantom credit?. He gets credit for beating his team mates conclusively and getting good results for where his car is. You say he had no podiums as if it was a possibility in the first place for any driver for a back marker without it being entirely down to luck but I'd say beating Nico and Lewis in Hungary 2015 was off the charts considering where his car was and beating Nico in Monaco last year similar.

And saying the top 5 could do just as well is a bit of a vague statement that can equally be applied in the opposite direction. I haven't seen anything Seb or Lewis have done in the last few seasons that the Top 5 couldn't do in their position either. That's why they're the Top 5.

He's also got the Indy performance in there as the cherry. There's simply no reason for his stock to have fallen. If he was in cars capable of more and he failed to deliver or he was getting beaten by team mates and drivers in inferior cars it would take an immediate hit of course.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:36 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
No. But he is the driver of field, by far.


Alonso is better all round. I agree about Hamilton perhaps being the most "naturally talented" though.

Of this generation not ever. Hard to see anything that would put him above a couple of others on that.

I find it interesting how little Alonso has to actually do in order to keep that title in the minds of some forumers. It seems he simply has to show up. Not that the current situation at Mclaren is his fault but he hasn't really done much other than his great race starts for quite some time now meanwhile Hamilton has done quite a lot of late. I haven't rated Alonso as #1 overall for years.

In terms of natural talent, I look at it like this; I remember seeing both from Senna and Schumacher when they were at the height of their careers that they could often just jump in the car and immediately be very quick even in a situation that was unpredictable such as when the rain starts to fall or some other challenge. With Hamilton, this is something that you see quite consistently. He often is able to get into the car and instantly be extremely quick in situations where other drivers take a couple of laps to get up to speed. Qualifying at Monza was a recent example of this and the race in Singapore was another one. At Monza he seemed to be able to instantly push the car to the limit without the feeling out period. Sort of like his performance during the race at Monza in 2008 or Silverstone in 2008. Even this last race in Singapore he seemed to be able to adapt to racing in the wet at night very quickly. Red Bull were faster all weekend but in the race, under those new conditions, it seemed Lewis was able to adapt right away while Ricciardo was slower by comparison and Bottas was absolutely nowhere in the same car.

There are times where he is just able to really gap the field with his performance in those circumstances. Also in hearing quotes from his teammates, it seems that they all acknowledge that going faster than him was a monumental task and sometimes simply not possible. Top drivers like Button and Rosberg have often been left way behind and even in his rookie year, he was able to best Alonso. In terms of raw speed, I think Hamilton is as fast or faster than anyone who's ever done this and in terms of racing instincts, overtaking and defending, he is also at the top level. I think Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso have perhaps displayed slightly better consistency when in top cars but in terms of ceiling, I think Lewis has a higher one than those three.

The other drivers who comes to mind in terms of talent are Alonso, Dan and young Max. Vettel seems to me to have just a touch less innate talent. I've always felt that Vettel's biggest strength is his consistency (especially when he's clicking with the car). Both Alonso and Dan have a really good balance of raw ability and consistency. Max is all talent and still needs polishing (this season will be good for him in the long run).

But long story short; I agree that Hamilton has an extremely high level of innate ability. I remember reading this story about braking and I think it helps shed some light on this topic.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... vs-alonso/

Jenson Button has talked about Alonso being a tougher challenge on race day. In his opinion Alonso has no big weaknesses. He said that Hamilton could sometimes go missing, whereas Alonso is relentless

You consistently trot out that quote as though it has some special meaning. One thing we know is not to take comments from drivers as gospel truth. At best they are opinions and at worst there is an agenda behind them. Alonso was Button's teammate at the time so not sure what you expect. Even if that was actually just an honest opinion, it's still just one driver's opinion. There was clearly a larger gap in pace on Saturday between Hamilton and Button than between Alonso and Button. On Sunday's if you take away the second half of 2011, Hamilton was also consistently better. For half a year, Hamilton was completely out to lunch on race days and kept getting caught up in incidents and penalties. It's important to note that the WDC was basically a formality at that point in the year. Alonso and Button had 2 years together but were unable to really even push without the car dying so I'm not sure that their matchup was particularly meaningful. Overall Button narrowly won out in 2015 but Alonso clearly won out in 2016 by a bigger margin. Against Hamilton, Lewis won out in 2010 and Button won out in 2011. The biggest disparity was in 2012 (even though that was the year they were closest in the points). If not for Lewis having two mechanical failures from the lead, having Hulkenberg take him out while leading in Brazil and having so many team mistakes in the pits, he beats Jenson by well over 100 points that year. Button wasn't even close most of the year.

More importantly, why consider anyone's opinion when you have an objective season of them driving the same car to assess...

I think you've mixed me up with someone else

Button still had the same opinion on a post-retirement Top Gear interview over a year later

Why shouldn't we consider a World Champion's opinion? The only guy that ever went up against both? I think he's more than qualified to be taken seriously. More qualified than anyone on this forum, ardent Hamilton or Alonso supporters included

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