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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:52 pm 
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Regarding safety today, Kimi's wheel tether done a good job holding his wheel that could have gone anywhere with such a huge force going through it. It was also a bit worrying how Vettels nose cone just popped off with quite small brush on the wall. A few times now, we've seen them just pop clean off when hit at that angle. Those things are lethal, if that had popped off and got air it could easily end very badly.

I haven't considered it before, but how will the halo be in the wet. Will it make any difference?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:20 am 
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lamo wrote:
Huge turn around for the title, I nearly wrote it yesterday but didn't but I was going to say Vettel can lose the title IF he DNF's tomorrow and its how it played out. Singapore was his race to win and he needed the Monaco-Hungary-Singapore triple as the foundation for his title.

Vettel needed to win this race and it slipped away, the worst possible place he could DNF at all year and taking out 3 cars that would have likely finished ahead of Hamilton.

I said it earlier in the year, he has too many first corner incidences. Its no coincidence - he takes a little bit too much risk there. Third time this year and about the 6-7th time in 2016-2017 he has had contact at turn 1.


Mercedes all year round performance suggests Singapore was the last race Vettel could have won. The Ferrari performance on more normal tracks just can't match up. So incidents DNFs aside, the faster car will always matter most.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:38 am 
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lamo wrote:
purchville wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Masterclass by Lewis, although it's a shame Max and Seb weren't there as yardsticks as Dan is always slow in the wet. That said he couldn't do anything once it dried up either.


I guess you missed the part about Ricciardo losing oil pressure in his gearbox before the first safety car, which he had to manage for the whole race. He drove around the problem so well that you probably didn't even notice! :)


I found Horners comments confusing, he said this occurred at the first SC, but I think he meant the 2nd...The first SC was on lap 1.

Because the first SC happened on lap 1 and he said they only had this problem for 1 hr 30 mins when the race was 2 hours and if it happened at the start he would just say he had it all race rather than after the first SC.

Lewis was very strong against Ricciardo in the first stint before the second SC but then again Ricciardo isn't that amazing in the wet. Good but not on the same level as Max, Vettel and Alonso.


Yes, clearly he meant the second safety car, but it was still 3/4s of the race he had the problem for.

As for Ricciardo in the wet, I recall Austin 2015, where he overtook his team mate and both Mercs in the wet to take the lead...so on his day he can be a very effective wet weather driver. I think with a gearbox issue from around lap 15 onward yesterday he disguised it pretty well. Without it perhaps he could have challenged Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:54 am 
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lamo wrote:
...It was also a bit worrying how Vettels nose cone just popped off with quite small brush on the wall. A few times now, we've seen them just pop clean off when hit at that angle. Those things are lethal, if that had popped off and got air it could easily end very badly.
...

I think it was actually a pretty big hit at high speed, hence the whole nose going AWOL rather than just the front wing as is more common.
It does seem to take a pretty big impact to remove the actual nose cone, and the nature of an impact like that means it is unlikely to go airborne in the manner a lighter more delicate wing alone could. I think any impact big enough to remove the whole nose will remove the wing from the nose at the same time. This is what happened in this case and I can't recall a nose and front wing assembly ever detaching as one and going airborne.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:02 am 
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shay550 wrote:
Racing incident - but Verstappen is turning into a common denominator. With his finishing record he should be a little more mindful.


max got hit by Kim and had Vettel swerve across him and left him no where to go. Max was mearly a passenger this time.

This incident is squarely with Kimi and Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:11 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:25 am 
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mcdo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:41 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing

The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:05 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
... I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out
I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing
Agree with this. I've otherwise nothing to add!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:19 am 
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mcdo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

Yeah I suppose it was the carnage and cars flying everywhere that brought out the Spa comparison. Funnily enough on the walk to the train station I've thought that Suzuka is a more apt comparison, because it was Suzuka that saw the decisive points swing to Vettel that Alonso simply couldn't overcome.

While I wouldn't call this year's battle as being over, if Hamilton finishes the last 6 races of the season then I'm struggling to come up with a realistic scenario where he doesn't win the title.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:36 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Yeah I suppose it was the carnage and cars flying everywhere that brought out the Spa comparison. Funnily enough on the walk to the train station I've thought that Suzuka is a more apt comparison, because it was Suzuka that saw the decisive points swing to Vettel that Alonso simply couldn't overcome.

While I wouldn't call this year's battle as being over, if Hamilton finishes the last 6 races of the season then I'm struggling to come up with a realistic scenario where he doesn't win the title.


There's no scenario where Hamilton doesn't win the title, barring technical failure. There's simply not enough development left, and not enough risky tracks, to make up that deficit - particularly with Kimi rarely having the pace to challenge Hamilton, even when Vettel can.

Going in to Singapore - Vettel could have been looking at coming out of this weekend 12 points ahead in the WDC. As much as its advantage Mercedes on the remaining tracks, its not a huge advantage and it left Mercedes zero margin for error. Realistically you'd expect Ferrari to have the better package on 2, possibly 3, of the tracks. Mercedes would need to win 4-2 for Hamilton to win the WDC.

Now, they have the margin for error. They can even have a complete engine failure and still be in the driving seat.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:42 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
lamo wrote:
...It was also a bit worrying how Vettels nose cone just popped off with quite small brush on the wall. A few times now, we've seen them just pop clean off when hit at that angle. Those things are lethal, if that had popped off and got air it could easily end very badly.
...

I think it was actually a pretty big hit at high speed, hence the whole nose going AWOL rather than just the front wing as is more common.
It does seem to take a pretty big impact to remove the actual nose cone, and the nature of an impact like that means it is unlikely to go airborne in the manner a lighter more delicate wing alone could. I think any impact big enough to remove the whole nose will remove the wing from the nose at the same time. This is what happened in this case and I can't recall a nose and front wing assembly ever detaching as one and going airborne.


Due to the shape and materials I think you would be hard pushed to throw the nose section and wing just a few feet. It is a very large area for the weight and would be like throwing an empty cardboard box. Air resistance would soon stop it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:25 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:

Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.


I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing

The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:46 am 
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Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:51 am 
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lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:51 am 
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purchville wrote:

Yes, clearly he meant the second safety car, but it was still 3/4s of the race he had the problem for.

As for Ricciardo in the wet, I recall Austin 2015, where he overtook his team mate and both Mercs in the wet to take the lead...so on his day he can be a very effective wet weather driver. I think with a gearbox issue from around lap 15 onward yesterday he disguised it pretty well. Without it perhaps he could have challenged Hamilton.


He was good in the wet then but his team mate was Kyvat who was also in the mix at the front that day.

The race resumed on lap 4 after the first SC, by the time the next SC came out on lap 10, Hamilton had built a 5.2 second lead. Ricciardos Gearbox was fine during that period.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:58 am 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Sorry if this has been answered but there are hundreds of posts to go through.

The crash that took Vettel out after the initial hit on the start. Was it because of damage or did he actually lose it on his own?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered but there are hundreds of posts to go through.

The crash that took Vettel out after the initial hit on the start. Was it because of damage or did he actually lose it on his own?


The impact with Kimi ended his race, the second spin was likely oil on his tyres from that.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:15 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.


You make an excellent point. There was no need to win this race in turn one. The rain added a HUGE variable. Lewis was way down the start line in 5th. This was Vettel's track as seen in qualiy. He could have lost P1 and still had a very nice race most likely. Vettel just forced the situation far too hard in turn 1. Totally unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:16 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered but there are hundreds of posts to go through.

The crash that took Vettel out after the initial hit on the start. Was it because of damage or did he actually lose it on his own?


The impact with Kimi ended his race, the second spin was likely oil on his tyres from that.


His radiator was punctured and he was dumping fluid all over the track after the hit.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Its a bit petty, but can everyone stop calling the fluid that was coming out of Vettels car 'Oil'.

Its coolant.

Oil is not bright fluorescent green!!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:23 pm 
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The risk factor was huge (as proven by the outcome) - on a damp track, where a wet race has never taken place so no references.

Seb got a bad launch so instantly he should have taken more care than to try the chop off.

I'm calling it a racing incident as it was a first corner shunt, but I do feel that much of this could have been avoided.

Ref Dan's gearbox issue - I don't recall hearing it mentioned over team radio at all? - seems strange it wasn't broadcast...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:56 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.

But every driver will try and maximise their potential on the first corner. It's unrealistic to expect him to sit back and allow Max to get to the corner ahead of him. Of course he's going to try and cut him off. Every driver would, especially if they knew that this race was the best possible chance to put some air between him and his direct WDC rival. Look at the hoo-ha people made over Lewis "dropping" three points in Hungary. At that was people largely saying that Lewis should have broken his word to get the best result!

I pretty much guarantee that if Kimi had not made his great start no-one would be talking about what a risky move Seb made at the start and questioning his nerves. Rather, they'd likely be talking about how getting ahead at the first corner allowed him to control the race and deliver the best possible result. The result has heavily influenced how people view the start, but ordinarily it wouldn't even get a mention


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.


You make an excellent point. There was no need to win this race in turn one. The rain added a HUGE variable. Lewis was way down the start line in 5th. This was Vettel's track as seen in qualiy. He could have lost P1 and still had a very nice race most likely. Vettel just forced the situation far too hard in turn 1. Totally unnecessary.

Lewis was way down the line in 5th. But he won after leading from the first corner (well, second if you want to get technical). Overtaking is very hard at this track and position is key.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:01 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.


The clear difference I see from Monza and Singapore is Hamilton is already moving towards Stroll when the lights go out in dry conditions. He can see everything that's going on. Brundle said mirrors are as usefull as chocolate teapots with the spray.
Vettel gets a bad get away then decides to make the chop in wet conditions. Seems to me he just doesn't make a very good job of it in circumstances when there was no need for it. It was quite a late decision to do what he did IMO.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.


You make an excellent point. There was no need to win this race in turn one. The rain added a HUGE variable. Lewis was way down the start line in 5th. This was Vettel's track as seen in qualiy. He could have lost P1 and still had a very nice race most likely. Vettel just forced the situation far too hard in turn 1. Totally unnecessary.

Lewis was way down the line in 5th. But he won after leading from the first corner (well, second if you want to get technical). Overtaking is very hard at this track and position is key.


Vettel knows Max is very good in the rain, obviously Hamilton is. He most likely wanted to keep 1st knowing Hamilton would make up more places than usual in the wet conditions. In wet conditions track position isn't key.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.

But every driver will try and maximise their potential on the first corner. It's unrealistic to expect him to sit back and allow Max to get to the corner ahead of him. Of course he's going to try and cut him off. Every driver would, especially if they knew that this race was the best possible chance to put some air between him and his direct WDC rival. Look at the hoo-ha people made over Lewis "dropping" three points in Hungary. At that was people largely saying that Lewis should have broken his word to get the best result!

I pretty much guarantee that if Kimi had not made his great start no-one would be talking about what a risky move Seb made at the start and questioning his nerves. Rather, they'd likely be talking about how getting ahead at the first corner allowed him to control the race and deliver the best possible result. The result has heavily influenced how people view the start, but ordinarily it wouldn't even get a mention


I don't think it's any guarantee Vettel would have won, not with Max and Lewis around in wet conditions. Max and the RB at Singapore would have been a beast, just got to see what Lewis did.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:10 pm 
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His mistake was making the chop too early, had he been in front of Max then Max wouldn't have had to move left, and thats how he clipped Kimi's rear wheel. It was agressive, not overly so, but looking at the percentages, was the payoff of covering Max off at T1 really worth risking what eventually happened? In the cold light of day, I think Vettel would do it differently a second time round.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:15 pm 
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My issue is the lack of situational awareness Seb showed and has shown a few times in the run to T1, it's like he puts the blinkers on and only sees the 1 car he's dealing with. He swooped down across T1 in Spa last year, oblivious to possibility of a car being on the inside of Kimi (Max that time), he did something similar in Malaysia with Nico too.

Here, knowing he himself had got a poor start, should have realised the possibility someone on the 2nd row got a better one and Max could have had someone between him and the Wall making it yet another scenario where he only leaves room for 1 car in a space where there's a good chance there could be 2.

No need for any penalties though but it was just a needless risk that bit him hard.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
His mistake was making the chop too early, had he been in front of Max then Max wouldn't have had to move left, and thats how he clipped Kimi's rear wheel. It was agressive, not overly so, but looking at the percentages, was the payoff of covering Max off at T1 really worth risking what eventually happened? In the cold light of day, I think Vettel would do it differently a second time round.


Reaction from making a bad start and being worried he was behind at the first corner. Too much risk in those conditions and being in a WDC fight.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:24 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

I don't think it's any guarantee Vettel would have won, not with Max and Lewis around in wet conditions. Max and the RB at Singapore would have been a beast, just got to see what Lewis did.


It would have been a very interesting fight for the win if the order was say Vettel, Verstappen,Raikkonen, Hamilton. It was clear between laps 4-10 Ricciardo didn't have the pace to hang with Hamilton before his gearbox issue.

It would have been so interesting, if Hamilton could have passed Kimi then it could have been any of the front 3 and it would have been decided in the wet part of the race and probably by who put the slicks on at the right time and got them up to temperature the quickest.

Even then we could have had someone stick on new US for the final SC and try to win it. It was interesting yesterday, sometimes the 2nd place man gets a really big advantage in SC races. "If you pit, I am staying out and taking the lead. If you don't pit I am getting a free pit stop and coming at you with fresh tyres". In this race that didn't mean much as a new inter for DR wasn't a big advantage, but if that was during a dry race that would have been fascinating.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
My issue is the lack of situational awareness Seb showed and has shown a few times in the run to T1, it's like he puts the blinkers on and only sees the 1 car he's dealing with. He swooped down across T1 in Spa last year, oblivious to possibility of a car being on the inside of Kimi (Max that time), he did something similar in Malaysia with Nico too.

Here, knowing he himself had got a poor start, should have realised the possibility someone on the 2nd row got a better one and Max could have had someone between him and the Wall making it yet another scenario where he only leaves room for 1 car in a space where there's a good chance there could be 2.

No need for any penalties though but it was just a needless risk that bit him hard.


Don't want to turn it into a Vettel bash but he did the same at Brazil in 2012, turned in oblviously to Senna on the inside and was so lucky that one didn't cost him the WDC too. He is not good in first lap Melee's. Look at how many incidents he had in his TR when back there.

Both races also coincidentally had the unusual shot of SV rolling backwards racing the wrong way as cars went by. Also both races had his team mate racing him hard that put him into that position in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CqhyvkZIVk

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0CqhyvkZIVk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How do you guys embed videos?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I said a few races ago that I felt this season would pan out similarly to 2012, with Vettel 2017 playing the role of Alonso and Hamilton playing Vettel 2012.

This was Vettel's Spa moment, and we're now coming to a run of tracks that Hamilton should be better at. If the reliability gods smile on Hamilton then I don't see where Vettel can claw back the difference.

I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing

The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time

"Aggressive defence" then, whatever way you want to paint it. Vettel would only have been successful in getting Max closer to the wall. His car wasn't fully ahead. How many times have we seen pole sitters do it off a wet start on a circuit they weren't even certain was suitable to drive on against an aggressive young talent that had absolutely nothing to lose?

Getting through Turn 1 unscathed should have been priority No.1 - if Max was ahead or behind shouldn't have come into it. Lewis would have been behind and that's what should have mattered

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:36 pm 
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lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

I don't think it's any guarantee Vettel would have won, not with Max and Lewis around in wet conditions. Max and the RB at Singapore would have been a beast, just got to see what Lewis did.


It would have been a very interesting fight for the win if the order was say Vettel, Verstappen,Raikkonen, Hamilton. It was clear between laps 4-10 Ricciardo didn't have the pace to hang with Hamilton before his gearbox issue.

It would have been so interesting, if Hamilton could have passed Kimi then it could have been any of the front 3 and it would have been decided in the wet part of the race and probably by who put the slicks on at the right time and got them up to temperature the quickest.

Even then we could have had someone stick on new US for the final SC and try to win it. It was interesting yesterday, sometimes the 2nd place man gets a really big advantage in SC races. "If you pit, I am staying out and taking the lead. If you don't pit I am getting a free pit stop and coming at you with fresh tyres". In this race that didn't mean much as a new inter for DR wasn't a big advantage, but if that was during a dry race that would have been fascinating.


Regarding the gearbox issue it sounds like it was from the very start for DR.

“Even before the first [safety car], we could see were losing an awful lot of oil pressure in the gearbox, so we were thinking, ‘crikey, this is only going to go to half-distance’,” team boss Horner explained to Sky Sports.

“So Daniel had instructions to start managing that, and he had to sacrifice laptime from doing that.

“He did that incredibly well, and managed to nurse the car home for almost another hour and a half.

I gathered from the half distance comment the issue started from the beginning. Could be wrong though.

Regarding the race it would have been very interesting. Max in the rain I fell would have been hustling Vettel and he wouldn't think twice about slinging it up the inside and letting Vettel make the decision. Hamilton would have been there abouts and was he less than a tenth slower than Kimi in qualifying? He would have overtaken Kimi in the race quickly I imagine if Kimi didn't put it in the wall himself. It's normally one or the other for him.
It would have defiantly been a 3 way fight for the race win.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
My issue is the lack of situational awareness Seb showed and has shown a few times in the run to T1, it's like he puts the blinkers on and only sees the 1 car he's dealing with. He swooped down across T1 in Spa last year, oblivious to possibility of a car being on the inside of Kimi (Max that time), he did something similar in Malaysia with Nico too.

Here, knowing he himself had got a poor start, should have realised the possibility someone on the 2nd row got a better one and Max could have had someone between him and the Wall making it yet another scenario where he only leaves room for 1 car in a space where there's a good chance there could be 2.

No need for any penalties though but it was just a needless risk that bit him hard.


Don't want to turn it into a Vettel bash but he did the same at Brazil in 2012, turned in oblviously to Senna on the inside and was so lucky that one didn't cost him the WDC too. He is not good in first lap Melee's. Look at how many incidents he had in his TR when back there.

Both races also coincidentally had the unusual shot of SV rolling backwards racing the wrong way as cars went by. Also both races had his team mate racing him hard that put him into that position in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CqhyvkZIVk

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0CqhyvkZIVk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How do you guys embed videos?


Yeah there are a few in his past.

Embed by copying the text past the = and wrapping the you tube tags around it(Just click on the youtube box next to the tweet box).

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:40 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I was originally reminded of Spa 2012 too but they were different in that Spa was totally out of Alonso's hands

I think it's more his Suzuka 2012 moment - he took a major risk off the line and it bit him hard. The only difference was that it was a risk Vettel never needed to take. Alonso had been taking his race start risks week in, week out

I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing

The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time

"Aggressive defence" then, whatever way you want to paint it. Vettel would only have been successful in getting Max closer to the wall. His car wasn't fully ahead. How many times have we seen pole sitters do it off a wet start on a circuit they weren't even certain was suitable to drive on against an aggressive young talent that had absolutely nothing to lose?

Getting through Turn 1 unscathed should have been priority No.1 - if Max was ahead or behind shouldn't have come into it. Lewis would have been behind and that's what should have mattered

He did end up ahead of Max, though. He was hit by Kimi as Max was already behind.

We don't know what may have happened at the corner, since they never reached there. But by crowding Max out Vettel increased his chances. There's no reason whatsoever to believe it would have ended in tears if Kimi had not been there. It was a perfectly normal move


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:43 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered but there are hundreds of posts to go through.

The crash that took Vettel out after the initial hit on the start. Was it because of damage or did he actually lose it on his own?


The impact with Kimi ended his race, the second spin was likely oil on his tyres from that.

I couldn't help but think that this was the first time that Ferrari's risky cooling concept was impacted (and there's an irony in that it was by the other Ferrari)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:43 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a move we don't see too often, if you cover a car off you have to be in front of it. As soon as a car has its front wheels up to your rear wheels it becomes a lot more risky because on a start you don't know who might be where. Can anybody else remember a start of a chop on a car that had its wheels up alongside? I can remember Schumacher doing it but anything more recent?

Hamilton covered off Stroll last race, but he was ahead at all times - this makes it completely risk free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOPzsVsaA0

But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.

But every driver will try and maximise their potential on the first corner. It's unrealistic to expect him to sit back and allow Max to get to the corner ahead of him. Of course he's going to try and cut him off. Every driver would, especially if they knew that this race was the best possible chance to put some air between him and his direct WDC rival. Look at the hoo-ha people made over Lewis "dropping" three points in Hungary. At that was people largely saying that Lewis should have broken his word to get the best result!

I pretty much guarantee that if Kimi had not made his great start no-one would be talking about what a risky move Seb made at the start and questioning his nerves. Rather, they'd likely be talking about how getting ahead at the first corner allowed him to control the race and deliver the best possible result. The result has heavily influenced how people view the start, but ordinarily it wouldn't even get a mention


I don't think it's any guarantee Vettel would have won, not with Max and Lewis around in wet conditions. Max and the RB at Singapore would have been a beast, just got to see what Lewis did.

To be fair Vettel's no slouch in Singapore, either. He's won it more than anyone else, after all. Point I was making was that no-one would have talking about the start other than to say how it ensured Vettel stayed ahead of Max then. It's only being slated because of the additional factor that was Kimi entering the equation. Which, for these guys, is probably quite hard to judge


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