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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
@andrewbensonf1 22s23 seconds ago
Stewards "find no driver wholly or predominantly to blame" for Vettel-Raikkonen-Verstappen. No further action

So in the steward's fogged mind, this accident still happens if Vettel is off in the distance.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Out here Hamilton crashes into Vettel:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
So in the steward's fogged mind, this accident still happens if Vettel is off in the distance.

The accident doesn't happen if Kimi has a slightly worse start. His rocket start was a black swan as Max was yielding but had nowhere to go. Racing incident is the sensible call.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
David Hobbs- "Vettel is to blame for the lap 1 crash".


How is Vettel to blame?

Max saw a gap that was closing and still went for it, where was he going, Kimi was half a car ahead Vettel was ahead.

He actually started to back out of it as soon as Vettel started to come across him but unfortunately he wasn't able to disappear.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:31 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
boing007 wrote:
Dear CW,
Thanks for the standing start.
LH
P.S. Thanks for a timed race as well.
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It's unbelievable really

I said before they started it should be a safety car start, so I'm not aftertiming after Seb's bad luck.

I guess you missed it were they changed the rule for wet starts?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:31 pm 
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"Racing Incident" is the only call.

It is reasonable to say that the actions of Vettel led directly to the accident, but that is a very long way from saying that Vettel caused an accident, and blaming him.

Vettel took an aggressive move, but fair and normal. He left Max plenty of room, and had Kimi not been occupying that space (something Vettel could not have known), all would have safely rounded the corner. SOmetimes stuff happens, and you don't win in F1 without being bold from time to time.

By the way ... the only argument that can NOT be made, by anyone, is that the race should have started behing the safety car. The top six all chose to start on inters, so that point is simply not valid.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:34 pm 
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twigg2324 wrote:
"Racing Incident" is the only call.

It is reasonable to say that the actions of Vettel led directly to the accident, but that is a very long way from saying that Vettel caused an accident, and blaming him.

Vettel took an aggressive move, but fair and normal. He left Max plenty of room, and had Kimi not been occupying that space (something Vettel could not have known), all would have safely rounded the corner. SOmetimes stuff happens, and you don't win in F1 without being bold from time to time.

By the way ... the only argument that can NOT be made, by anyone, is that the race should have started behing the safety car. The top six all chose to start on inters, so that point is simply not valid.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:34 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
boing007 wrote:
Dear CW,
Thanks for the standing start.
LH
P.S. Thanks for a timed race as well.
xxx



It's unbelievable really

I said before they started it should be a safety car start, so I'm not aftertiming after Seb's bad luck.



Why shouldn't it have been a standing start?


Kimi and Grosjean both radioed it was very wet, visibility was poor and there was too much spray. It was a very dangerous decision to go with a normal start, and Seb has paid a very heavy price for that BS decision.

Grosjean always complains when it's wet plus Ferrari ideally wanted the track to dry out.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:36 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Ennis wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
boing007 wrote:
Dear CW,
Thanks for the standing start.
LH
P.S. Thanks for a timed race as well.
xxx



It's unbelievable really

I said before they started it should be a safety car start, so I'm not aftertiming after Seb's bad luck.


You wanted the start process that maintains track position when your favourite driver was at the front. The fact you states this before the race means nothing.

Not a single car lost control due to the conditions. None of them. You'll continue to ignore this, I hope you enjoy it.


No, I said very clearly my view was safety grounds. What happened going into that first corner proved my point. It was unsafe.

The conditions made no difference to the actions of the first 3 cars.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:37 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso could have put Macca on the podium. So sad...

Alonso himself said that he would have won the race. :lol:

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso could have put Macca on the podium. So sad...

Alonso himself said that he could have won the race. :lol:


He says he would have have been in the fight for a victory. He probably says that because he would have been P2 after the first lap had he not been taken out.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Masterclass by Lewis, although it's a shame Max and Seb weren't there as yardsticks as Dan is always slow in the wet. That said he couldn't do anything once it dried up either.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking at the trajectory of Vettel, if Verstappen had not been there Vettel would have hit Kimi.

Indeed but the stewards have seen fit not too penalise him.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:08 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Verstappen will take Vettel out at turn 1.

Well done Max, so predictable.


Max did nothing wrong. At most it was Vettels fault.

Incidents like this follow Max around. Listening to his comments yesterday post qualifying it was inevitable his race would not last beyond the first corner.


Even if it's not his fault just blame him for the fun of it :lol:

You always have to assume the usual suspect at first in these situations.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:26 pm 
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I'm assuming this hasn't been discussed - on the basis I tried going back through the thread ~5 pages and didn't want to go any further through that mess - but today for me I feel proved this should be Massa's last season. He's never been a rainmaster but he had to stay to stay on wets longer than anyone else, especially compared to his teammate (who I feel is doing a great job now). It's great to see he's still got plenty of spirit and fight but there were times when I thought he was going to take another driver out through incompetence, the DRS pass by Magnussen being one of them. His driving reminded me of Barrichello's final season.

He's a great character and will be missed but I'd much, much rather see someone else in that seat for 2018 - Kubica would be great.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Vettel's only sin was assuming that he and Max were alone on that part of the track. I thought it was a racing incident overall but if you had to blame one of them, it would be Seb. Max had nowhere to go and neither did Kimi.

What an awful incident for Ferrari! This was a track where they clearly had Mercedes beat and they end up losing 25 points to Hamilton here. That was a massive blow in the championship.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
I'm assuming this hasn't been discussed - on the basis I tried going back through the thread ~5 pages and didn't want to go any further through that mess - but today for me I feel proved this should be Massa's last season. He's never been a rainmaster but he had to stay to stay on wets longer than anyone else, especially compared to his teammate (who I feel is doing a great job now). It's great to see he's still got plenty of spirit and fight but there were times when I thought he was going to take another driver out through incompetence, the DRS pass by Magnussen being one of them. His driving reminded me of Barrichello's final season.

He's a great character and will be missed but I'd much, much rather see someone else in that seat for 2018 - Kubica would be great.


I like Massa, but with the Williams seemingly failing to develop at the pace of their rivals, the extra onus put on the drivers to drag the car around seems to be highlighting the fact that Felipe seems to be losing it a little bit more every race. It has all the air of an extended lap of honour really, and I would be incredibly shocked to see him still at Willy next year. The rumours about Palmer getting the seat just wont go away, and Williams would probably see the advantage of having Palmer Sr and his company being involved with Williams on the business side of things.

Paddy Lowe certainly has his work cut out, thats for sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:04 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Kimi has one job tomorrow - stop Hamilton getting ahead of him at any cost. Even if it means a double DNF then so be it.

I'm very confident Seb can see off the Red Bulls. He's supreme here.


Well, it meant a triple DNF in the end, and Seb certainly saw off one of the Red Bulls.

Congratulations Agent Raikonnen, your work is done.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking at the trajectory of Vettel, if Verstappen had not been there Vettel would have hit Kimi.


If Max had not been there Vettel wouldn't have needed to move...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Vettel assumes that Verstappen, (forget about Kimi for a second) will move because he is coming across. Verstappen sees himself as at least equal to Vettel and hold his ground not conceding the track willingly to make a point. Vettel would have had to move back across to get the racing line for the 1st corner. Had they not collided MV could have and probably would have forced SV wide. All the while LH was occupying the space SV had vacated and would have had the best line for the corner.

Vettel realised he didn't have as fast a start as MV and was just driving for the next 10 seconds rather than the next 61 laps. You would think SV would be smarter than this, getting into a scrap with a young contender rather than settling for 2nd/3rd at the first corner. He wasn't/isn't racing MV for the title after all.

Kimi spoiled all this by having one of his inspirational moments and starting like a rocket.....resulting in scratch Ferrari's title bid. If Vettel hadn't wanted to prove a point he would have had Kimi with him to spoil LH's day.

Red mist moment again for SV but it is ALL his fault he is where he is in the standings. Its a blunder a 4x world champ really shouldn't make.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Racing incident - but Verstappen is turning into a common denominator. With his finishing record he should be a little more mindful.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel assumes that Verstappen, (forget about Kimi for a second) will move because he is coming across. Verstappen sees himself as at least equal to Vettel and hold his ground not conceding the track willingly to make a point. Vettel would have had to move back across to get the racing line for the 1st corner. Had they not collided MV could have and probably would have forced SV wide. All the while LH was occupying the space SV had vacated and would have had the best line for the corner.

Vettel realised he didn't have as fast a start as MV and was just driving for the next 10 seconds rather than the next 61 laps. You would think SV would be smarter than this, getting into a scrap with a young contender rather than settling for 2nd/3rd at the first corner. He wasn't/isn't racing MV for the title after all.

Kimi spoiled all this by having one of his inspirational moments and starting like a rocket.....resulting in scratch Ferrari's title bid. If Vettel hadn't wanted to prove a point he would have had Kimi with him to spoil LH's day.

Red mist moment again for SV but it is ALL his fault he is where he is in the standings. Its a blunder a 4x world champ really shouldn't make.


Pretty much that. Vettel's situation was in Vettel's own hands there, and he threw it away in a moment of unforced desperation.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:24 pm 
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shay550 wrote:
Racing incident - but Verstappen is turning into a common denominator. With his finishing record he should be a little more mindful.


Hard to be mindful when you are the meat in a Ferrari sandwich; Verstappen has plenty of black marks next to his name for his on track behaviour, but there really wasn't much else he could have done here.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Huge turn around for the title, I nearly wrote it yesterday but didn't but I was going to say Vettel can lose the title IF he DNF's tomorrow and its how it played out. Singapore was his race to win and he needed the Monaco-Hungary-Singapore triple as the foundation for his title.

Vettel needed to win this race and it slipped away, the worst possible place he could DNF at all year and taking out 3 cars that would have likely finished ahead of Hamilton.

I said it earlier in the year, he has too many first corner incidences. Its no coincidence - he takes a little bit too much risk there. Third time this year and about the 6-7th time in 2016-2017 he has had contact at turn 1.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:15 pm 
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shay550 wrote:
Racing incident - but Verstappen is turning into a common denominator. With his finishing record he should be a little more mindful.

In this case I'm not sure what he could have done. He had no room on either side because of the Ferraris. Vettel squeezed everyone there.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:18 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking at the trajectory of Vettel, if Verstappen had not been there Vettel would have hit Kimi.


If Max had not been there Vettel wouldn't have needed to move...

...because Kimi would have made no attempt to pass him?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Hi Guys
I appreciate the Ferrari and Seb fans are a bit downcast at the moment.
But I really think this one is far from over.
Don't quote me on this - but hasn't Lewis used up all his engine allocation ?
If his current engine goes pop doesn't he then get a silly grid penalty for the next race ?

Is it possible for his engine to last the final 6 races ?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Lewis has used 4 Seb 3 5 allowed in a season.

http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/882391/1/power-unit-component-use-after-13-rounds-of-20


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Xink wrote:
Hi Guys
I appreciate the Ferrari and Seb fans are a bit downcast at the moment.
But I really think this one is far from over.
Don't quote me on this - but hasn't Lewis used up all his engine allocation ?
If his current engine goes pop doesn't he then get a silly grid penalty for the next race ?

Is it possible for his engine to last the final 6 races ?

Hamilton has used 4 engines but the other engines are still in service, Hamilton used an older engine in the race today.

In terms of possible engine penalties it's being said that it's in fact Vettel that might take them, I believe Ferrari had some issues earlier in the season?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking at the trajectory of Vettel, if Verstappen had not been there Vettel would have hit Kimi.

Indeed but the stewards have seen fit not too penalise him.


Of course not, he is a wdc contender after all .... ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:08 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso could have put Macca on the podium. So sad...

Alonso himself said that he could have won the race. :lol:


He says he would have have been in the fight for a victory. He probably says that because he would have been P2 after the first lap had he not been taken out.


A win was out of reach, but P2, 3, or 4 was definitely on the cards.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Hamilton and Bottas have only used 4 as Merc wanted to get all four engines into circulation before the oil burning rules took effect.

I think Ferrari are more marginal on engines - indeed, according to Ted Kravitz, Ferrari switched Vettel to his "best" engine on Saturday, explaining the step up in performance for Ferrari compared to Friday where they were running an old one on lower power settings. If that's true, it could be problematic with the damage to the coolant systems sustained today.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Masterclass by Lewis, although it's a shame Max and Seb weren't there as yardsticks as Dan is always slow in the wet. That said he couldn't do anything once it dried up either.


I guess you missed the part about Ricciardo losing oil pressure in his gearbox before the first safety car, which he had to manage for the whole race. He drove around the problem so well that you probably didn't even notice! :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:50 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Huge turn around for the title, I nearly wrote it yesterday but didn't but I was going to say Vettel can lose the title IF he DNF's tomorrow and its how it played out. Singapore was his race to win and he needed the Monaco-Hungary-Singapore triple as the foundation for his title.

Vettel needed to win this race and it slipped away, the worst possible place he could DNF at all year and taking out 3 cars that would have likely finished ahead of Hamilton.

I said it earlier in the year, he has too many first corner incidences. Its no coincidence - he takes a little bit too much risk there. Third time this year and about the 6-7th time in 2016-2017 he has had contact at turn 1.

It's over, I said it as soon as the incident happened. And I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the state of Vettel fans right now. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Vettel has done two major unforced blunders this season that perhaps have sealed his bid for the title. This one, and bumping Hamilton in Baku.

Indeed while we are told by some that he has had a superior season to Hamilton, all Hamilton has had is 2 bad qualifying sessions.


Vettel has been the driver of the season for most of the year but the tide has now turned, I think for the first time all season I would place Hamilton slightly above him overall. Hamilton's Russia weekend was truly awful and Monaco not much better, there was a point Hamilton had had 2 awful races in 6 whilst Vettel around this time was 5-0 up in qualifying over Kimi and completely faultless all year.

But then in the next 8 races Hamilton has had 5-6 very good weekends, maybe slightly under par for Hungary qualifying. Vettel has started to be out qualified by Kimi (Monza, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone) and had two very costly judgement errors in Baku and Singaprore (that probably cost 35+ points) and an off par weekend at Silverstone.

Hamilton is now slightly ahead for me, but still enough races for it to flip back.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Xink wrote:
Hi Guys
I appreciate the Ferrari and Seb fans are a bit downcast at the moment.
But I really think this one is far from over.
Don't quote me on this - but hasn't Lewis used up all his engine allocation ?
If his current engine goes pop doesn't he then get a silly grid penalty for the next race ?

Is it possible for his engine to last the final 6 races ?


His usage is no real issue, he took the 4th engine early. When he took his 4th engine his 3rd engine had only done 2 weekends.

Each engine basically needs to do 5 weekends with 6 weekends to go, Hamilton has one engine that has done 2 weekends and another that has done 2 weekends. His engine life is fine. In fact, I believe Hamilton had back in his car engine number 2 or 3 for this very weekend. 4 is the most powerful and will be used at the power circuits (it was the one used in Spa and Monza)

Ferrari drivers have an engine that has done 4 weekends and when they take the new one it will do the last 5 weekends most likely.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:35 pm 
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purchville wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Masterclass by Lewis, although it's a shame Max and Seb weren't there as yardsticks as Dan is always slow in the wet. That said he couldn't do anything once it dried up either.


I guess you missed the part about Ricciardo losing oil pressure in his gearbox before the first safety car, which he had to manage for the whole race. He drove around the problem so well that you probably didn't even notice! :)


I found Horners comments confusing, he said this occurred at the first SC, but I think he meant the 2nd...The first SC was on lap 1.

Because the first SC happened on lap 1 and he said they only had this problem for 1 hr 30 mins when the race was 2 hours and if it happened at the start he would just say he had it all race rather than after the first SC.

Lewis was very strong against Ricciardo in the first stint before the second SC but then again Ricciardo isn't that amazing in the wet. Good but not on the same level as Max, Vettel and Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
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After all the moaning I do regarding wet Grand Prixs I have to give credit to CW regarding the race start. He got it spot on and I just hope he doesn't bottle it in the future as the incident was nothing to do with the conditions.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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