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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't really think the risk was that big. He made a move that has been repeated on dozens of occasions by multiple drivers. The only thing that made it risky was Kimi storming up from behind Max, which Vettel likely didn't see or anticipate. I think people forget that these drivers have mirrors the size of postage stamps and everything happens in the blink of an eye. It was just a racing incident caused by circumstance and I think it's being overblown by almost everybody. Even the Dutch commentators, who are staunchly pro-Verstappen and looking to find fault, conceded that Vettel's move would have been fine if Kimi hadn't added his presence to the mix (which is not a criticism of Kimi, BTW). I'm finding this need everyone has to pin blame somewhat amusing

The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time

"Aggressive defence" then, whatever way you want to paint it. Vettel would only have been successful in getting Max closer to the wall. His car wasn't fully ahead. How many times have we seen pole sitters do it off a wet start on a circuit they weren't even certain was suitable to drive on against an aggressive young talent that had absolutely nothing to lose?

Getting through Turn 1 unscathed should have been priority No.1 - if Max was ahead or behind shouldn't have come into it. Lewis would have been behind and that's what should have mattered

He did end up ahead of Max, though. He was hit by Kimi as Max was already behind.

We don't know what may have happened at the corner, since they never reached there. But by crowding Max out Vettel increased his chances. There's no reason whatsoever to believe it would have ended in tears if Kimi had not been there. It was a perfectly normal move

He only ended up ahead of Max because of the appearance of Kimi, not because of his own start. Max tried to back out of the Ferrari pincer. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel would only have shoved Max closer to the wall - there's no guarantee that they wouldn't have gone into Turn 1 together

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.

But every driver will try and maximise their potential on the first corner. It's unrealistic to expect him to sit back and allow Max to get to the corner ahead of him. Of course he's going to try and cut him off. Every driver would, especially if they knew that this race was the best possible chance to put some air between him and his direct WDC rival. Look at the hoo-ha people made over Lewis "dropping" three points in Hungary. At that was people largely saying that Lewis should have broken his word to get the best result!

I pretty much guarantee that if Kimi had not made his great start no-one would be talking about what a risky move Seb made at the start and questioning his nerves. Rather, they'd likely be talking about how getting ahead at the first corner allowed him to control the race and deliver the best possible result. The result has heavily influenced how people view the start, but ordinarily it wouldn't even get a mention


I don't think it's any guarantee Vettel would have won, not with Max and Lewis around in wet conditions. Max and the RB at Singapore would have been a beast, just got to see what Lewis did.

To be fair Vettel's no slouch in Singapore, either. He's won it more than anyone else, after all. Point I was making was that no-one would have talking about the start other than to say how it ensured Vettel stayed ahead of Max then. It's only being slated because of the additional factor that was Kimi entering the equation. Which, for these guys, is probably quite hard to judge


Fair point, would have been a hell of a fight at the front though if Max and Vettel was involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
But the issue wasn't Max hitting Seb, which makes it rather irrelevant. At no point were Max and Seb in danger of colliding. The issue arose purely because Kimi entered the mix. Seb moving across on Max wasn't a problem until Kimi's great start intervened. Especially with such a short run to the first corner, you wouldn't expect such an overtake to happen


Yes I agree but in the wet and not being able to see, that is the risk, that nobody is the other side of Max. In the wet the chance of variable starts is higher than ever (especially when Vettel knew he at least made a bad one in comparison to Max) and the visibility lower than ever.

It was a racing incident, but in a close title fight at a race he was certain to take the WDC lead back it was too risky. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel still had Max on the inside of him going into turn 1 which is not what you want and very risky in itself. I would put the chances of them making contact in that scenario still quite high.

He was after all going to be fighting Verstappen who has a terrible race finish record, it was going to dry out, there would be SC's - so many options, it wasn't a race that would be decided at turn one.


You make an excellent point. There was no need to win this race in turn one. The rain added a HUGE variable. Lewis was way down the start line in 5th. This was Vettel's track as seen in qualiy. He could have lost P1 and still had a very nice race most likely. Vettel just forced the situation far too hard in turn 1. Totally unnecessary.

Lewis was way down the line in 5th. But he won after leading from the first corner (well, second if you want to get technical). Overtaking is very hard at this track and position is key.


Vettel knows Max is very good in the rain, obviously Hamilton is. He most likely wanted to keep 1st knowing Hamilton would make up more places than usual in the wet conditions. In wet conditions track position isn't key.

Yeah, they both are. But Vettel's not bad, either. Like I said before, he's won here more than anyone so knows more than most what works here. He just got unlucky but I'm having trouble accepting the narrative that what he did was obviously rash at the time. Plenty of times we see pole sitters crowding out the chasing pack at the first corner and they're not routinely slated for putting the win at risk. Often, it's the contrary.

I'm not totally convinced it's a done deal that Hamilton would make up several positions. But if that's the thought process, then it would have been even more imperative that Seb keep first place?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:50 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

Regarding the gearbox issue it sounds like it was from the very start for DR.

“Even before the first [safety car], we could see were losing an awful lot of oil pressure in the gearbox, so we were thinking, ‘crikey, this is only going to go to half-distance’,” team boss Horner explained to Sky Sports.

“So Daniel had instructions to start managing that, and he had to sacrifice laptime from doing that.

“He did that incredibly well, and managed to nurse the car home for almost another hour and a half.

I gathered from the half distance comment the issue started from the beginning. Could be wrong though.

Regarding the race it would have been very interesting. Max in the rain I fell would have been hustling Vettel and he wouldn't think twice about slinging it up the inside and letting Vettel make the decision. Hamilton would have been there abouts and was he less than a tenth slower than Kimi in qualifying? He would have overtaken Kimi in the race quickly I imagine if Kimi didn't put it in the wall himself. It's normally one or the other for him.
It would have defiantly been a 3 way fight for the race win.


But he says he managed it for 1h 30 mins, but the race was 2 hours. The 2nd SC came out after 30 mins.

Also, if it was at the start surely he would just say he had a Gearbox issue all race, he wouldn't say he had a gearbox issue after the first SC. It would be an odd way of wording it. I think because the first SC was immediate, the first proper SC was the 2nd one and he forgot the first one.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:51 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
The risk was dicing so aggressively with a non-contender. Max made it clear before the race that he had nothing to lose off the line - he wasn't in the title fight and his only goal was to win the race. Why did Vettel take that on? The only guy he should have cared about was a number of places behind on the grid

What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time

"Aggressive defence" then, whatever way you want to paint it. Vettel would only have been successful in getting Max closer to the wall. His car wasn't fully ahead. How many times have we seen pole sitters do it off a wet start on a circuit they weren't even certain was suitable to drive on against an aggressive young talent that had absolutely nothing to lose?

Getting through Turn 1 unscathed should have been priority No.1 - if Max was ahead or behind shouldn't have come into it. Lewis would have been behind and that's what should have mattered

He did end up ahead of Max, though. He was hit by Kimi as Max was already behind.

We don't know what may have happened at the corner, since they never reached there. But by crowding Max out Vettel increased his chances. There's no reason whatsoever to believe it would have ended in tears if Kimi had not been there. It was a perfectly normal move

He only ended up ahead of Max because of the appearance of Kimi, not because of his own start. Max tried to back out of the Ferrari pincer. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel would only have shoved Max closer to the wall - there's no guarantee that they wouldn't have gone into Turn 1 together

No-one's talking guarantees. But Vettel had a better chance of staying ahead by cutting across Max (thereby forcing him to take avoiding action) than by not doing so. I'm also pretty sure that Max said he didn't back off as he realised his wheel was inside Kimi's, leaving him with nowhere to go. Which means Seb would have been ahead anyway


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:03 pm 
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lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Regarding the gearbox issue it sounds like it was from the very start for DR.

“Even before the first [safety car], we could see were losing an awful lot of oil pressure in the gearbox, so we were thinking, ‘crikey, this is only going to go to half-distance’,” team boss Horner explained to Sky Sports.

“So Daniel had instructions to start managing that, and he had to sacrifice laptime from doing that.

“He did that incredibly well, and managed to nurse the car home for almost another hour and a half.

I gathered from the half distance comment the issue started from the beginning. Could be wrong though.

Regarding the race it would have been very interesting. Max in the rain I fell would have been hustling Vettel and he wouldn't think twice about slinging it up the inside and letting Vettel make the decision. Hamilton would have been there abouts and was he less than a tenth slower than Kimi in qualifying? He would have overtaken Kimi in the race quickly I imagine if Kimi didn't put it in the wall himself. It's normally one or the other for him.
It would have defiantly been a 3 way fight for the race win.


But he says he managed it for 1h 30 mins, but the race was 2 hours. The 2nd SC came out after 30 mins.

Also, if it was at the start surely he would just say he had a Gearbox issue all race, he wouldn't say he had a gearbox issue after the first SC. It would be an odd way of wording it. I think because the first SC was immediate, the first proper SC was the 2nd one and he forgot the first one.


:thumbup: you are correct, I'm reading it wrong. Does that mean DR had the issue when it was mainly dry? DR also seemed like he couldn't pull away from Bottas either.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Ernie>

It seems from lap 10 on wards he had the issue. That 2nd SC came out exactly at the half hour mark. Dan had the issue for the wet part, laps 12-28 and then 28 onwards for the dry part.

When Hamilton bolted after the last SC, he pulled away from DR by 4.3 seconds in 2 laps. Mercedes then got on the radio telling him to slow down and there is a suggestion in another forum that Mercedes asked Hamilton to slow down and give Dan some dirty air so Bottas could pass him. Not sure if I buy that. It was probably more to do with, you don't want a huge lead in a race like this because if a SC comes out you can be passed the pit entrance and your rival not and him be able to pit.

The Red bull seemed to struggle with initial tyre warm up and/or a very green track. Dan posted a lap at the end just 0.3 slower than Lewis fastest lap of the race. Lewis did his now customary, from this season onwards, attempt at fastest lap at the end and did a 45.0 (much faster than anything else he did all race). Dan did a 45.3 - what is it with the drivers and posting fastest laps?

DHL/FIA should offer $1 million price money to the driver who posts the most FL in the season, it would make that really interesting but there seems to be a recent obsession with posting FL with the top guys. Or maybe $50,000 to charity, chosen by the by guy who posted it - nice big novelty cheque. A nice way to donate some cash and get the DHL name out there.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Hamilton proved his situational awareness / brilliance when heading to the 1st corner. He probably assumed that either of the collided cars is going to slide down the track. In order to negotiate the corner before the danger, he sped fast into the corner close to Vettel. You could make out he's averting the skidding car. In the GIF below, we can clearly see how Hamilton hurriedly takes the corner:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
What dicing? He covered Max off, like he should have done. There was zero problem without Kimi being there. Which, I repeat, was unexpected. How many times have we seen pole sitters do almost exactly the same? It's a pretty standard move and only circumstance made it a problem this time

"Aggressive defence" then, whatever way you want to paint it. Vettel would only have been successful in getting Max closer to the wall. His car wasn't fully ahead. How many times have we seen pole sitters do it off a wet start on a circuit they weren't even certain was suitable to drive on against an aggressive young talent that had absolutely nothing to lose?

Getting through Turn 1 unscathed should have been priority No.1 - if Max was ahead or behind shouldn't have come into it. Lewis would have been behind and that's what should have mattered

He did end up ahead of Max, though. He was hit by Kimi as Max was already behind.

We don't know what may have happened at the corner, since they never reached there. But by crowding Max out Vettel increased his chances. There's no reason whatsoever to believe it would have ended in tears if Kimi had not been there. It was a perfectly normal move

He only ended up ahead of Max because of the appearance of Kimi, not because of his own start. Max tried to back out of the Ferrari pincer. If Kimi wasn't there then Vettel would only have shoved Max closer to the wall - there's no guarantee that they wouldn't have gone into Turn 1 together

No-one's talking guarantees. But Vettel had a better chance of staying ahead by cutting across Max (thereby forcing him to take avoiding action) than by not doing so. I'm also pretty sure that Max said he didn't back off as he realised his wheel was inside Kimi's, leaving him with nowhere to go. Which means Seb would have been ahead anyway

Max's in-car shows that he stopped accelerating as soon as Kimi appeared. If he applied the brakes too I don't know

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Hamilton has now won the last 6 rain effected Grand Prix. The last one he didn't win was Hungary 14 where he started from the pitlane. Got to be the current rain master?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton has now won the last 6 rain effected Grand Prix. The last one he didn't win was Hungary 14 where he started from the pitlane. Got to be the current rain master?

Of the ones in front-running cars, quite possibly. It's impossible to say if someone like Hulk would have been able to win those races; rain may be called the 'great equalizer', but it's not really equal.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:16 am 
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Kimi lost situational awareness with his fantastic start. Approaching Max on the 'outside' he had to understand that Vettel was to the 'inside' of Max and that Max would have to respond to any move toward the 'outside' the Vettel made. Kimi put himself knowingly in no mans land and all three + Alonso paid the price.

Great Starts have to be completed to be a GREAT START. Kimi didn't complete.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton has now won the last 6 rain effected Grand Prix. The last one he didn't win was Hungary 14 where he started from the pitlane. Got to be the current rain master?

Personally I don't think there's one rain master, the best drivers also tend to shine in the wet, I think of the top 5 only Ricciardo is the exception to that, as he tends to struggle in the wet and even that may just be an unfair reputation that people repeat without really looking into it.

That Hamilton has won the last 6 shows great consistency and that he can keep his head in tricky conditions, but I wouldn't necessarily rank him higher than the other top 5 simply because he hasn't really had to compete with them on a level playing field during that time, only Rosberg who he was miles better in the wet than because Hamilton is a tier 1 driver and Rosberg is/was not.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:02 am 
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Ricciardo farts during the press conference:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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