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 Post subject: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am 
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Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:33 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


Yip, seems we did not have all the facts.
We probably still do not though. With Renault and Mclaren that is still only 2 teams being supplied. who wil be the third?

Much happier now that RBR is not the prime though


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:37 am 
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Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


Lots of other reasons why it's better to be works team than a customer. Just ask Williams.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:07 pm 
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I thought a fallacy was something that symbolised a pen*s? Or is that just me being a fallacy?


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:11 pm 
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In reading between the lines, I think Renault believes that they won't be able to catch Ferrari or Mercedes until the rules change.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:39 pm 
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2010 and 2011 are the only times in the history of F1 a team has won the world constructors championship competing against the factory team that supplies it's engines.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:01 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
2010 and 2011 are the only times in the history of F1 a team has won the world constructors championship competing against the factory team that supplies it's engines.


Even then... Certainly by 2011 The "Renault" team was in no way a factory outfit.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
2010 and 2011 are the only times in the history of F1 a team has won the world constructors championship competing against the factory team that supplies it's engines.


Even then... Certainly by 2011 The "Renault" team was in no way a factory outfit.

I figured one could argue they were still effectively a factory team just for that year (not the later Lotus outfits), so I included 2011. I agree you could justifiably say 2010 is the only example.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:11 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
2010 and 2011 are the only times in the history of F1 a team has won the world constructors championship competing against the factory team that supplies it's engines.


Even then... Certainly by 2011 The "Renault" team was in no way a factory outfit.

I figured on could argue they still were a de-facto factory team just for that year (not the later Lotus outfits), so I included 2011. I agree you could justifiably say 2010 is the only example.


Yeah they were sold in 2010. They were "Renault in 2011 in the same way they were "Lotus" the year after.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


Lots of other reasons why it's better to be works team than a customer. Just ask Williams.


Williams ain't McLaren. Not by a long shot.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:53 pm 
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It's very important to have the security of works support. It also is a massive benefit and pretty much a must if you want to succeed at the beginning of a new engine formula when you want to be sure of parameters, upgrades that could change things for the car hugely and being left behind if the works teams get the tweaks and upgrades before you.

Once the rules are mature and parity is getting nearer and there aren't any sudden surprises in major changes to the layout of the PU that can effect your car concept it's not much of a problem I don't think.

Might be a year early for the ideal time to be doing it for McLaren but Renault might surprise and they've said there are no changes in architecture needed for next year now so nothing to worry about in that sense and McLaren will know every parameter to work with and they have the same fuel supplier which is a big bonus.

Getting parity with updates/software etc was vital though and they got it.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


Lots of other reasons why it's better to be works team than a customer. Just ask Williams.


Williams ain't McLaren. Not by a long shot.


What's the difference? Why can't a Williams post works engine deal decline happened to Williams? Back in 2005 when Williams lost the works deal they had similar stats to Mclaren, had more recent success and a similar budget. What do Mclaren 17 have that Williams 05 didn't?


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What's the difference? Why can't a Williams post works engine deal decline happened to Williams? Back in 2005 when Williams lost the works deal they had similar stats to Mclaren, had more recent success and a similar budget. What do Mclaren 17 have that Williams 05 didn't?

A whole ****ing lot more money and the best driver on the grid.

McLaren has just written off a contribution from Honda that is basically equal to Williams' entire team budget, and to hear them talk they're not very concerned about it. The budgetary gulf between them is huge, and should not be underestimated. I think it's at least three times, and maybe four.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What's the difference? Why can't a Williams post works engine deal decline happened to Williams? Back in 2005 when Williams lost the works deal they had similar stats to Mclaren, had more recent success and a similar budget. What do Mclaren 17 have that Williams 05 didn't?

A whole ****ing lot more money and the best driver on the grid.

McLaren has just written off a contribution from Honda that is basically equal to Williams' entire team budget, and to hear them talk they're not very concerned about it. The budgetary gulf between them is huge, and should not be underestimated. I think it's at least three times, and maybe four.


Williams in 05, not Williams now. When Williams lost the works deal they were every bit as big as Mclaren.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:05 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What's the difference? Why can't a Williams post works engine deal decline happened to Williams? Back in 2005 when Williams lost the works deal they had similar stats to Mclaren, had more recent success and a similar budget. What do Mclaren 17 have that Williams 05 didn't?

A whole ****ing lot more money and the best driver on the grid.

McLaren has just written off a contribution from Honda that is basically equal to Williams' entire team budget, and to hear them talk they're not very concerned about it. The budgetary gulf between them is huge, and should not be underestimated. I think it's at least three times, and maybe four.


This.

We cannot compare Mclaren to Williams as their budgets are simply not in the same league.


Mclaren could have won championships too when they were a Mercedes customer with a little better luck.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:42 am 
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I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:48 am 
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Bet Max wouldn't agree that they have engine parity!


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:24 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:46 am 
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moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:54 am 
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Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.


Yes, by package I assume you mean things like gear box? It is not just a matter of putting a different length prop shaft on to fill the gap between the back of the engine and the centre line of the rear wheels. the gearbox is a unit contains the gear box and dif and several other things, and both ends have to fit. There is also the route of the exhaust which may need a 'notch' in the casing to pass it through, without which the engine cover has to be 2 inch higher, messing up the designed flow.

The list is huge, and we could spend all day coming up with stuff, which Mclaren are probably still doing and wil have the die grinder our all week when they first fit it.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:34 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What's the difference? Why can't a Williams post works engine deal decline happened to Williams? Back in 2005 when Williams lost the works deal they had similar stats to Mclaren, had more recent success and a similar budget. What do Mclaren 17 have that Williams 05 didn't?

A whole ****ing lot more money and the best driver on the grid.

McLaren has just written off a contribution from Honda that is basically equal to Williams' entire team budget, and to hear them talk they're not very concerned about it. The budgetary gulf between them is huge, and should not be underestimated. I think it's at least three times, and maybe four.


Williams in 05, not Williams now. When Williams lost the works deal they were every bit as big as Mclaren.


When did Williams have access to hundreds of millions of dollars? McLaren is owned by billionaire shareholders. Their money supply is almost unlimited if the shareholders decide to open up the vaults. Williams has never had that kind of wealth behind them.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:01 pm 
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moby wrote:
Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.


Yes, by package I assume you mean things like gear box? It is not just a matter of putting a different length prop shaft on to fill the gap between the back of the engine and the centre line of the rear wheels. the gearbox is a unit contains the gear box and dif and several other things, and both ends have to fit. There is also the route of the exhaust which may need a 'notch' in the casing to pass it through, without which the engine cover has to be 2 inch higher, messing up the designed flow.

The list is huge, and we could spend all day coming up with stuff, which Mclaren are probably still doing and wil have the die grinder our all week when they first fit it.


I was just thinking of the overall aero package, my brain didn't even get as far as gear box. Which I guess proves your point - the list is huge :)


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.

And despite these disadvantages, McLaren are quite willing and happy to give up a works deal in favour of becoming a customer team.

That alone should tell you how bad Honda are.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Many times, too numerous to count, it was said over and over that McLaren should never give up the Honda engine because they would become just a customer team which meant that the works team (in this case Renault) would always have a better engine. They would have no chance to compete.

Well, the reality of the situation is far different.

"Several sources claim that McLaren will confirmed the much-awaited Renault engine deal, which is a three-year contract that will see them handed engine parity with the works team and Red Bull Racing, while Toro Rosso and Honda will announce their new partnership"

-Source Planet F1.


Have no doubt, it all depends on circumstances. If Macca fights for wins and maybe championship Renault will help them. If they fight against each other, the help will be a little less. If Renault fights for championship, and Macca is like Redbull this year, even less attention will be given by Renault.

So yes, all in all you are right, but there are also circumstances you need to take into account.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:27 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.

And despite these disadvantages, McLaren are quite willing and happy to give up a works deal in favour of becoming a customer team.

That alone should tell you how bad Honda are.

I still think they are making a mistake, more a point of drawing a line under the Dennis years than anything else, but now we know RBR are not going to be the golden boy of Renault, I am happier about things. It will give Mclaren time to take a breath and start running again.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Posts: 1568
GingerFurball wrote:
Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.

And despite these disadvantages, McLaren are quite willing and happy to give up a works deal in favour of becoming a customer team.

That alone should tell you how bad Honda are.


Exactly. Folks here act like McLaren are nothing but bumbling morons giving up Honda. They are some of the brightest minds in the racing industry. They know what they are doing.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Posts: 20920
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Posts: 1568
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12307
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


How does that make Zoue wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20920
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.

No, that wasn't the claim being made by most. It's been pointed out more than once that being a Works team has other advantages, including settings, fuels and lubricants used, PU upgrade cyles etc. Heck, even the split turbo design was something the Mercedes customers were made aware of too late in the 2014 design process for them to be able to take advantage of it fully, as the engine mounting "hard points" had already been set. And on another thread it's been pointed out that Merc customers have had zero PU related penalties, while the Works team has had several, indicating that they are run at higher stress levels than customers are permitted. It's things like that that give a Works team an edge. It's never been as simple as a customer team getting an inferior engine, as much as you would like to make it so.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalalalala" all you want, but the fact remains that being a Works team offers demonstrable advantages to being a customer one.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
Zoue wrote:


You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalalalala" all you want, but the fact remains that being a Works team offers demonstrable advantages to being a customer one.


That's you. I made a very clear post about the fallacy that was claimed multiple times in several threads and that has been conclusively proven to be incorrect.

Maybe one day you'll pull your fingers out of your ears. Maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


How does that make Zoue wrong?


Because he is addressing a point that is not being made in this thread (hence why it is a separate post). Zoune typically does this when he cannot address the point being made, taking a side route to a straw man argument.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20920
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


How does that make Zoue wrong?


Because he is addressing a point that is not being made in this thread (hence why it is a separate post). Zoune typically does this when he cannot address the point being made, taking a side route to a straw man argument.

There is no side route. Your original claim doesn't stand up, that's all. I'd say the majority of claims weren't that McLaren would be getting an engine that would be substandard to the Renault Works team and it certainly wasn't cited as a key point why McLaren shouldn't ditch Honda in favour of Renault. Not on this forum, at least. Which, ironically, makes the whole OP a strawman...


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12307
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


How does that make Zoue wrong?


Because he is addressing a point that is not being made in this thread (hence why it is a separate post). Zoune typically does this when he cannot address the point being made, taking a side route to a straw man argument.


I think Zoue is being pretty direct.... it is you that is going round the houses trying to divert the conversation. You have not explained how Zoue was wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Posts: 834
It's not a fallacy. Renault and Mclaren both need each other, for now. When Renault becomes a top 3 team, they will stop supplying to Mclaren.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.


How does that make Zoue wrong?


Because he is addressing a point that is not being made in this thread (hence why it is a separate post). Zoune typically does this when he cannot address the point being made, taking a side route to a straw man argument.


I think Zoue is being pretty direct.... it is you that is going round the houses trying to divert the conversation. You have not explained how Zoue was wrong?


I just did, directly I might add. Can you not read? It's not my responsibility to impart comprehension into you. I cannot do this so try again.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12307
Ahhh the typical my opinion doesn't make sense, so when asked to explain I will divert the topic to something loosely related and then dismiss everyone that points out the explanation is inadequate as illiterate trick.


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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 1118
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Another thread on this? Really?

What's wrong with the other 5 threads (on the front page alone...) on this subject?

Yes, fully agree. I'm wondering if there's some competition I'm not aware of on how many threads we can make on the same topic.

Regarding the OP, there is no fallacy. Being a Works team is always infinitely preferable to being a customer and a single press release or speculative opinion isn't going to change that.


You are wrong yet again. More than once, it was stated that McLaren would be getting a customer engine, substandard to the works Renault team engine. It was key point in the argument why McLaren should not give up Honda. This is now demonstrably incorrect. McLaren are getting the exact same engine, software included as the Renault team.

No, that wasn't the claim being made by most. It's been pointed out more than once that being a Works team has other advantages, including settings, fuels and lubricants used, PU upgrade cyles etc. Heck, even the split turbo design was something the Mercedes customers were made aware of too late in the 2014 design process for them to be able to take advantage of it fully, as the engine mounting "hard points" had already been set. And on another thread it's been pointed out that Merc customers have had zero PU related penalties, while the Works team has had several, indicating that they are run at higher stress levels than customers are permitted. It's things like that that give a Works team an edge. It's never been as simple as a customer team getting an inferior engine, as much as you would like to make it so.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalalalala" all you want, but the fact remains that being a Works team offers demonstrable advantages to being a customer one.


While a customer may be informed that they must provide "X" amount of cooling at a certain rate, and informed that at those levels the failure rate is calculated at 95%, the works team have full access to all test and engineering data. Their information on how much heat must be removed, and the calculated failure rates is much more comprehensive. For example, a customer team may only be informed where the red line is, the works team know (for example) that if they run a specific power level, the failure rate may be 93%.

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 Post subject: Re: A Fallacy Dies
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:20 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2882
GingerFurball wrote:
Ennis wrote:
moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I do not consider this a fallacy, just common sense and facts.

Being a works team is no guarantee for a title, more works teams have fallen short than succeeded. There have been non-works teams that have done better than their works team.

But a works team get the first pick of the litter, as well any upgrades get to them first. When I was the wrench for a pro level motocrosser, we spent one lovely day in a warehouse, going over every prospective bike in the entire place. The dimensions and numbers may have been very slight (considering all of them came off the same production line) but when that day was over we had picked out the best bike on the premises. And that is the same with works teams, an engine may differ by just a small factor, but the works team get first dibs on that jewel that is barely 1% better. But it is a better engine than what is remaining.

Even with upgrades, even it is a matter of a few moments, the works team get their hands on them, receive full information on how to feed and care for it, and have a little longer than a non-works team in sorting things out. On a busy race weekend a few minutes can make a huge difference.

By definition a works team always get all the advantages. That does stack the deck in their favor, but it is no guarantee of success.


They also know what the ceiling is, and not have to go by what the works tell them it is.
Example. For cooling they tell the customer this engine needs a flow of X coolant per min, flowing through Y area to air.

They know they can get by 95% of the time with Y-a area so build the car with smaller radiators.
Less drag less weight of radiator less weight of cooling lower c. of g. etc.

Multiply this by a handful of items and it is quite an advantage

In addition, they do not have to follow the rule of how long they can keep it in quali mode etc. They blow it, and so what? its theirs.


And toss in the additional advantages of being able to build an entire package as one, rather than trying to build a car around whatever engine you are given...

The list goes on. The McLaren disadvantages here, highlighted in the other thread, remain. I don't get why people are so defensive on this. I understand hope, I really don't understand the defensiveness. I feel like the OP in this case continues to look at a very narrow viewpoint on things, and completely disregard the broader context.

And despite these disadvantages, McLaren are quite willing and happy to give up a works deal in favour of becoming a customer team.

That alone should tell you how bad Honda are.


Yep. And how about that gem by honda about being in the top 3 teams next year? You want to talk about a delusional, unrealistic goal? Honda is truly looking scarier and scarier. Mclaren did the right thing. 100 percent


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