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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Both Vettel and Hamilton have shockingly large gaps to their team mates: they may as well be driving for different teams! The Red Bull pair, OTOH, look impressively well matched. It's a good situation for Vettel and if he can keep the Bulls behind him at the start then he stands a chance of finishing with a substantial points margin over Hamilton, given the circuit. And he'll need a big margin to have any chance of fending Lewis off the rest of the year. But Max will surely be eyeing his first win of 2017...

The latest theory is that Kimi doesn't like the new Ferrari front since Spa but we both agree now after giving him plenty of the benefit of the doubt in the past that he's over the hill and should have been replaced for next year as I doubt Leclerc would be any worse and probably be better. He's a bit fortunate that he has a couple of tracks he looks good on just before re-signing time but really he doesn't deserve that leading seat now. Only positive of the qualifying is that he's ahead of both Mercedes.

Bottas is just keeping the seat warm for either Ricciardo or Verstappen as overall he's just not in Hamilton's class although he can and does pounce when Lewis has tyre issues.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:34 pm 
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I actually think both Hamilton and Vettel are driving at an insanely high level this season. Both are making much more of a difference than fans and media are giving them credit for.

Great laps today by the Red Bull drivers as well. Red Bull seem to be right there with their chassis as do McLaren. So much of the future competitiveness of the sport is now tied to Renault's engine development...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Both Vettel and Hamilton have shockingly large gaps to their team mates: they may as well be driving for different teams!
I noticed, and couldn't help thinking whether there might be a level of planning involved. Kimi ending up just ahead of Lewis...

1. Kimi was the first to cross the line from top 6, so nobody had any idea where Lewis going to finish, even though after initial run in Q3, it was clear Mercs were struggling against other two.
2. From timing screen it appears that Kimi was ahead of Max S2 times on last run, but he brushed the wall on S3.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I actually think both Hamilton and Vettel are driving at an insanely high level this season. Both are making much more of a difference than fans and media are giving them credit for.

Great laps today by the Red Bull drivers as well. Red Bull seem to be right there with their chassis as do McLaren. So much of the future competitiveness of the sport is now tied to Renault's engine development...

Two all time greats around the theoretical peak performance age. It really is a great scrap

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:34 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I actually think both Hamilton and Vettel are driving at an insanely high level this season. Both are making much more of a difference than fans and media are giving them credit for.

Great laps today by the Red Bull drivers as well. Red Bull seem to be right there with their chassis as do McLaren. So much of the future competitiveness of the sport is now tied to Renault's engine development...

Two all time greats around the theoretical peak performance age. It really is a great scrap


:thumbup: Totally agree. It's a pity the other 'great' isn't in the mix.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:38 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)


The power advantage has not been taken away. The power is still in the car. It's that the characteristics of this car does not suit this circuit. Stop trying to assume by your statement it's his driving ability. Your statement is utter tosh.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:09 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)


I don't think beating his team mate by nearly 0.7 seconds shows him struggling. Seb couldn't put that much between himself and Kimi.

You do know you can support a driver without having to attack another? Should try it sometime.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:02 pm 
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robins13 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Both Vettel and Hamilton have shockingly large gaps to their team mates: they may as well be driving for different teams!
I noticed, and couldn't help thinking whether there might be a level of planning involved. Kimi ending up just ahead of Lewis...

1. Kimi was the first to cross the line from top 6, so nobody had any idea where Lewis going to finish, even though after initial run in Q3, it was clear Mercs were struggling against other two.
2. From timing screen it appears that Kimi was ahead of Max S2 times on last run, but he brushed the wall on S3.
:thumbup: True, I think I mainly felt that because Kimi went out so early.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:16 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


Bottas a poor driver? What you talking about man? ;-) Do you remember how Hamilton fared in his first year at Merc against his team mate (the by all accounts inferior) Rosberg? Taking everything into consideration Bottas is holding up very well if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


Bottas a poor driver? What you talking about man? ;-) Do you remember how Hamilton fared in his first year at Merc against his team mate (the by all accounts inferior) Rosberg? Taking everything into consideration Bottas is holding up very well if you ask me.

I agree with what you are saying.
I think it is a little unreasonable that several people on this forum seem to call Bottas a poor driver. He's an F1 driver. He's got to bee a great driver to start with. He isn't as good as Hamilton. That is quite clear. But what I don't like is how people constantly say what an absolutely stunning job Hamilton is doing in qualifying. And then they say Bottas is poor when he is up against Hamilton. Surely his performance can be called decent rather than poor? Considering this is his first year with the team and the fact that Mercedes is no longer dominating, I think Bottas is doing an extremely good job overall. I personally think he will be able to get to Rosberg's level in time. Lets remember that Rosberg was used to the team even before Hamilton joined and he didn't look close to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 and even 2016 was down to some bad luck on Hamilton's side when he won the championship. Bottas isn't exactly totally out of a chance of the championship if some luck goes his way and he may well improve next year. It is only his first year with the team. And even now, in he races, he is often pretty close and sometimes better than Hamilton who people seem to say is doing an amazing job this year. Surely this means that everybody can say Bottas is having at leased a "good" season. I also notice that many seem to point out Bottas's weak performances in qualifying but don't seem to talk much about Hamilton's P14 in Monaco which resulted in a lower place finish in the race than Bottas's worst this season. Hamilton isn't great all the time either. Another positive thing I can say about Bottas is that I think he is currently one of very few drivers without any penalty points. This indicates he is good at keeping out of trouble.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.

So would Rosberg, to be fair. There were a number of occasions where his qualifying deficit was so bad that only his car's utter dominance saved him from starting further down the grid. In fact, I remember doing an analysis where it turned out that his qualifying deficit was worse than Kimi's relative to his team mate, while Kimi was being slated for his poor performance. Difference was that Kimi lost several grid slots, while Nico invariably started on the front row. All car


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:49 pm 
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I'd call that one of Vettel's greatest, if not his greatest, pole lap IMO. Astonishing.

As for the gaps from HAM and VET to their respective team mates, they are not as huge as they look for a 100 second lap. Certainly Kimi looks like he might have decent race pace this weekend too.

And well done to VER and RIC. Nothing between them and both incredibly consistent. Here's the gaps between the 2 of them through qualy:

Q1: VER -0.053
Q2: VER -0.053
Q3 first run: VER -0.04
Q3 final run: VER -0.026

As for a 2013 repeat, I don't think so. It's too close to call at the front end. Looking forward to seeing if RBRs long stint pace and tyre conservation come to the fore during the race

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


Bottas a poor driver? What you talking about man? ;-) Do you remember how Hamilton fared in his first year at Merc against his team mate (the by all accounts inferior) Rosberg? Taking everything into consideration Bottas is holding up very well if you ask me.


Had Hamilton turned up at Monaco and Russia, then you won't be having this argument.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:51 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I agree with what you are saying.
I think it is a little unreasonable that several people on this forum seem to call Bottas a poor driver. He's an F1 driver. He's got to bee a great driver to start with. He isn't as good as Hamilton. That is quite clear. But what I don't like is how people constantly say what an absolutely stunning job Hamilton is doing in qualifying. And then they say Bottas is poor when he is up against Hamilton.


Given its his first year and who's it relative too;

Beating Hamilton under any straight fight is an exceptional performance.

Less than 0.150 behind in qualifying - excellent
0.151-0.250 - very good
0.251-0.350 - good
0.350-0.400 - ok
0.401-0.600 - poor
0.600+ very poor

Same scale for Vandoorne going up against Alonso and with Kimi I would probably knock a tenth off each for his performance against Vettel. So I think Kimi needs to be within 0.250 of Vettel to be classified as a good performance and 0.500+ is very poor.

As for Bottas still having a chance at this title, he has won one race in the last 9 races and his form is horrible. His outside title challenge officially ends tomorrow unless Hamilton and Vettel both DNF. Vettel is likely to be nearly 55-60 points ahead of him with 6 races to go after the race tomorrow.

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Last edited by lamo on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:56 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Biffa wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


Bottas a poor driver? What you talking about man? ;-) Do you remember how Hamilton fared in his first year at Merc against his team mate (the by all accounts inferior) Rosberg? Taking everything into consideration Bottas is holding up very well if you ask me.

I agree with what you are saying.
I think it is a little unreasonable that several people on this forum seem to call Bottas a poor driver. He's an F1 driver. He's got to bee a great driver to start with. He isn't as good as Hamilton. That is quite clear. But what I don't like is how people constantly say what an absolutely stunning job Hamilton is doing in qualifying. And then they say Bottas is poor when he is up against Hamilton. Surely his performance can be called decent rather than poor? Considering this is his first year with the team and the fact that Mercedes is no longer dominating, I think Bottas is doing an extremely good job overall. I personally think he will be able to get to Rosberg's level in time. Lets remember that Rosberg was used to the team even before Hamilton joined and he didn't look close to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 and even 2016 was down to some bad luck on Hamilton's side when he won the championship. Bottas isn't exactly totally out of a chance of the championship if some luck goes his way and he may well improve next year. It is only his first year with the team. And even now, in he races, he is often pretty close and sometimes better than Hamilton who people seem to say is doing an amazing job this year. Surely this means that everybody can say Bottas is having at leased a "good" season. I also notice that many seem to point out Bottas's weak performances in qualifying but don't seem to talk much about Hamilton's P14 in Monaco which resulted in a lower place finish in the race than Bottas's worst this season. Hamilton isn't great all the time either. Another positive thing I can say about Bottas is that I think he is currently one of very few drivers without any penalty points. This indicates he is good at keeping out of trouble.


I mentioned this in the Bottas v Rosberg thread that Hamiltons inconsistency has made Bottas look good. The performance Hamilton has had this year he could not afford such vs Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

I mentioned this in the Bottas v Rosberg thread that Hamiltons inconsistency has made Bottas look good. The performance Hamilton has had this year he could not afford such vs Rosberg.


?
Hamilton has had 2-3 bad qualifying sessions in 14 races this year and 1 bad race pace in Russia. In 2014-2016 against Rosberg he would have started those races P2 and at very worst finished them P2 and won some of them too. When Nico started on pole, Hamilton was just as likely to win the race as Nico.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
I mentioned this in the Bottas v Rosberg thread that Hamiltons inconsistency has made Bottas look good. The performance Hamilton has had this year he could not afford such vs Rosberg.


What? Against Rosberg after several years settling into the team? Don't talk pish, if you want to compare them like for like then hold your weesht until the end of next year at least.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:02 am 
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I loved quali today, seeing those beasts on their door handles around a walled street circuit just brings home to me how good everyone of those guys are.
Seb was completely wired & even Lewis said he was hanging on for dear life.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:02 am 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)

I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.

I'd take Bottas over Kimi, today Kimi did qualify behind the Red Bulls.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:11 am 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Biffa wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think if you out qualify your teammate by 7 tenths then that's still shining, also it looks like you were somewhat fooled by Vettel's sandbagging in Q2.


Bottas is a gherkin poor driver, comparing him to Hamilton is diminishing Hamilton.

It's like night and day, he has only been saved because of the dominant Mercedes, had he been in the Ferrari.and had the qualy deficits he's had he would be finishing behind the bulls.


Bottas a poor driver? What you talking about man? ;-) Do you remember how Hamilton fared in his first year at Merc against his team mate (the by all accounts inferior) Rosberg? Taking everything into consideration Bottas is holding up very well if you ask me.

I agree with what you are saying.
I think it is a little unreasonable that several people on this forum seem to call Bottas a poor driver. He's an F1 driver. He's got to bee a great driver to start with. He isn't as good as Hamilton. That is quite clear. But what I don't like is how people constantly say what an absolutely stunning job Hamilton is doing in qualifying. And then they say Bottas is poor when he is up against Hamilton. Surely his performance can be called decent rather than poor? Considering this is his first year with the team and the fact that Mercedes is no longer dominating, I think Bottas is doing an extremely good job overall. I personally think he will be able to get to Rosberg's level in time. Lets remember that Rosberg was used to the team even before Hamilton joined and he didn't look close to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 and even 2016 was down to some bad luck on Hamilton's side when he won the championship. Bottas isn't exactly totally out of a chance of the championship if some luck goes his way and he may well improve next year. It is only his first year with the team. And even now, in he races, he is often pretty close and sometimes better than Hamilton who people seem to say is doing an amazing job this year. Surely this means that everybody can say Bottas is having at leased a "good" season. I also notice that many seem to point out Bottas's weak performances in qualifying but don't seem to talk much about Hamilton's P14 in Monaco which resulted in a lower place finish in the race than Bottas's worst this season. Hamilton isn't great all the time either. Another positive thing I can say about Bottas is that I think he is currently one of very few drivers without any penalty points. This indicates he is good at keeping out of trouble.


I mentioned this in the Bottas v Rosberg thread that Hamiltons inconsistency has made Bottas look good. The performance Hamilton has had this year he could not afford such vs Rosberg.

Hamilton has only had 2 bad qualifying sessions, Monaco and Sochi.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:50 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)


You were saying?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
That's how you do it under incredible pressure. Two insanely great laps from Seb to put it on pole, having trailed the Red Bulls all weekend. It's his razor sharp consistency that will win him this title.

Hamilton struggled to shine yet again when the Mercedes power advantage is taken away from him.

Both Red Bull drivers were fantastic too with almost nothing between them run after run.

It should be a fun race tomorrow :)


You were saying?

He got the last part right. :lol:

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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