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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:50 pm 
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With the Sainz deal coming through, McLaren can finally use Renault engines & Toro Rosso will switch to Honda.

For McLaren:
- They can start a new chapter with Renault after Honda disapointed them big time.
- Alonso stays with McLaren as there's no Honda to spoil the party.
- With a good chassis, McLaren could again try becoming the best of the rest.

For Toro Rosso:
- Honda still remains in F1.
- Added financial gain could aid development for the team.
- Honda could still improve & create a monster of an engine for 2018. It could be a big lottery for the team.
- If Honda does improve, Red Bull may wear Honda engines even.

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Last edited by UnlikeUday on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:53 pm 
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You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Confirmed? Where?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!

I bet Alonso will be furious if Honda was suddenly the best engine and Renault continued to be unreliable and fell back even further next year :lol:

It doesn't look like Renault have made any progress this year. I still have my hopes that Honda may get it right if they get another chance. But it will be unlucky for Alonso again if this happens.

I didn't know if this was confirmed but it looks like it is on this autosport page:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13172 ... en-changes


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:35 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
Confirmed? Where?

In the link in my post above.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:39 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Confirmed? Where?

In the link in my post above.

That doesn't even properly confirm the Sainz move, let alone McLaren-Renault and STR-Honda.

Definitely not saying it's not very likely to happen, but it's hardly confirmation.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:50 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Confirmed? Where?

In the link in my post above.

That doesn't even properly confirm the Sainz move, let alone McLaren-Renault and STR-Honda.

Definitely not saying it's not very likely to happen, but it's hardly confirmation.


That's why I put a question mark at the end of the title at there's no official announcement yet!

Am expecting one though before or during the Singapore Grand Prix.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Autosport are reporting Carlos Sainz could be heading for Renault and could make his Renault debut in Malaysia at the expense of Jolyon Palmer.

The deal is Renault want a sweet deal to soften the blow that Toro Rosso won't be using the Renault engine next season, also in the same article this deal with McLaren will be announced before Singarpore.

Interesting.....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:12 pm 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
Autosport are reporting Carlos Sainz could be heading for Renault and could make his Renault debut in Malaysia at the expense of Jolyon Palmer.

The deal is Renault want a sweet deal to soften the blow that Toro Rosso won't be using the Renault engine next season, also in the same article this deal with McLaren will be announced before Singarpore.

Interesting.....

I think that would be a bit much. Swapping drivers mid season when Sainz himself has had 2 of the worst incidents this year. He's also been responsible for more drivers retiring than any other driver on the grid this year. I know he is good overall and probably good enough to switch next year, but it is just too early to suddenly do so now. As Palmer is used to Renault as he has been there for nearly 2 years and also hasn't been that bad the last couple of weekends, I doubt Sainz will be much of an improvement over the remaining races as he will be completely unfamilier with the team. And introducing a replacement driver for Toro Rosso for the remaining of the season would probably mess up their points scoring opportunities too.

Although Verstappen going to Red Bull mid season seemed to work well, Kvyat going backwards didn't and I actually think he wouldn't have performed quite so badly if he had remained with Red Bull. I just don't think drivers switching mid season is a good thing really.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:21 pm 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
Autosport are reporting Carlos Sainz could be heading for Renault and could make his Renault debut in Malaysia at the expense of Jolyon Palmer.

The deal is Renault want a sweet deal to soften the blow that Toro Rosso won't be using the Renault engine next season, also in the same article this deal with McLaren will be announced before Singarpore.

Interesting.....

Very.

And think for a moment of Kvyat. He was promoted to RBR, than got demoted, while all his team mates got better drive. On top of that, he lies behind Wehrlein in Sauber in standings. His morale must be broken to pieces.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Autosport are reporting Carlos Sainz could be heading for Renault and could make his Renault debut in Malaysia at the expense of Jolyon Palmer.

The deal is Renault want a sweet deal to soften the blow that Toro Rosso won't be using the Renault engine next season, also in the same article this deal with McLaren will be announced before Singarpore.

Interesting.....

Very.

And think for a moment of Kvyat. He was promoted to RBR, than got demoted, while all his team mates got better drive. On top of that, he lies behind Wehrlein in Sauber in standings. His morale must be broken to pieces.

While we can say that overall, Kvyat has been poor this season, he has had a huge amount of bad luck. And Wehrlein in Spain only just beat Ericsson to Q2 by 0.005 seconds and then it was only down to multiple retirements that got Wehrlein into the points. He also got a penalty this race too. And in Baku, Ericsson looked a fair bit better than Wehrlein but when Wehrlein attempted to overtake Ericsson, it resulted in a little damage to Ericsson. The team let Wehrlein by and they said they would return the position if Wehrlein didn't make any progress. He barely pulled away 2 seconds and if Hamilton managed to return a place to Bottas when he was 7 seconds in front, then I don't know why Wehrlein didn't give this position back to Ericsson. This gave another point to Wehrlein.

My main point is that Wehrlein being one point ahead of Kvyat doesn't really reflect that he's a better driver. Kvyat has had so many reliability problems this year and has looked better than Sainz on race day on at leased 5 occasions and possibly more if he hadn't had to many retirements that were not his fault. His good performances just often happen to be where he's suffered bad luck or the car hasn't really been capable of a points finish.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:39 pm 
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I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:08 pm 
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I'm happy for Sainz as I think 4 years at STR would be a bad thing for his career. Moving to Renault really gives him an opportunity to grow with a factory team and potentially someday be in position to challenge for titles (not any time soon probably). I'm also interested to see how he stacks up with Hulk. In general this sets up Renault with two quick (and hungry) young drivers as they attempt to build up their outfit into a contender. I think the future looks bright for them and Sainz is a much more appropriate hire than say Alonso (who would want to win right away).

For STR, this means they will be in the alarming position of essentially being a factory team! This despite the fact that their parent team (Red Bull) are basically a customer. Can't remember ever seeing something like that lol. It will be very interesting to see who ends up in the other car. Assuming they keep Kvyatt, I'm not sure who Red Bull consider to be their next best young prospect. Surely Gasly's stock has fallen by now to levels where they may not want him in that car. I do get the sneaking suspiscion that the engine will come good next year too.

For McLaren, this represents a shining light at the end of the tunnel. They will have a solid engine next year. Perhaps they will be behind both Mercedes and Ferrari in engine power but they will be able to race hard and finish races and that's something they haven't been able to do for 3 years! It also gives Alonso a glimmer of hope in the final stages of his career. It is certainly theoretically possible for McLaren Renault to become very competitive. They have the budget and pedigree.

Very interesting developments...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:12 pm 
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IF it goes through, I hope Honda decide they want control and not be doing everything by proxy with one eye on supplying the daddy team and buy up the team themselves. Not next year maybe, but in the near future. Having said that, should Honda feed them a good engine, the value of the team is going to go up.

Saints may be a little in limbo for a while, but a move to Renault will be good


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:26 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
- If Honda does improve, Red Bull may wear Honda engines even.


May wear Honda engines ?? May??

Oh I think it's a bit more than may. IMO RB will be in on this deal up to their eyeballs and if they can see sure signs of Honda progress coming from little sister then they'll be all over those engines like a fat kid on a smartie.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:48 am 
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Why does the title say confirmed? The questionmark doesn't sort the title out. You still think it's conformed, like when people first have the title ''McLaren Renault & Toro Rosso Honda?'' then they edit the title when they know it's confirmed.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:00 am 
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Not sure why we needed a confirmed thread anyway, there's a 5 page thread about McRenault already being used. Could do with a STR-Honda one though.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:04 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
- If Honda does improve, Red Bull may wear Honda engines even.


May wear Honda engines ?? May??

Oh I think it's a bit more than may. IMO RB will be in on this deal up to their eyeballs and if they can see sure signs of Honda progress coming from little sister then they'll be all over those engines like a fat kid on a smartie.


I think you're bang on with this.

RB come out of this deal looking pretty good. Don't have to use a Honda engine whilst it's rubbish, and will probably take over as the constructor team if they finally get it sorted!

And to the OP, please change the title. I know there's a question mark in it, but it reads as if it's confirmed. I thought I'd missed some big news :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:53 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Confirmed? Where?

In the link in my post above.

That doesn't even properly confirm the Sainz move, let alone McLaren-Renault and STR-Honda.

Definitely not saying it's not very likely to happen, but it's hardly confirmation.


That's why I put a question mark at the end of the title at there's no official announcement yet!

Am expecting one though before or during the Singapore Grand Prix.

Well it is not confirmed so you can take the question mark away and put a "Not" in the beginning.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:26 am 
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This actually works quite well for Renault don't you think? They got Sainz, and they've got Red Bull and McLaren running their engines. They probably don't worry too much about Honda, but if they do get it right at Red Bull go they've still got McLaren as a back up. Seems to me Renault isn't a bad option for McLaren, Renault seem to be less of a team and more of an engine supplier who just happen to have a team... if that makes sense. I could never see McLaren beating Merc with the same engine but I could see them beating Renault.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:22 am 
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McLaren-Renault just doesn't sound right to me. Like McLaren-Peugeot and we all know how that worked out . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:46 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


I think you looking at it wrong, TR's sole purpose until now has always been for driving training for the big team, now they also will be a PU development platform for the big team. It's a win/win for RB, which ever PU looks to be going stronger they can just take over, i think they are keen to see the honda perform well and get the whole works thing going again. If not, than they stick with renault. Also good for honda next season, they will have far less pressure on them supplying TR while they continue to try and fix their issues. The fact RB are willing to let a good driver go to help make this happen tells you all you need to know really ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:27 pm 
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rivf1 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


I think you looking at it wrong, TR's sole purpose until now has always been for driving training for the big team, now they also will be a PU development platform for the big team. It's a win/win for RB, which ever PU looks to be going stronger they can just take over, i think they are keen to see the honda perform well and get the whole works thing going again. If not, than they stick with renault. Also good for honda next season, they will have far less pressure on them supplying TR while they continue to try and fix their issues. The fact RB are willing to let a good driver go to help make this happen tells you all you need to know really ;)


Suppose Honda takes a significant step backwards with their engine next year. Suppose that Torro Rosso fails to score double digit points during the entire year. Will there really be less pressure on them to improve?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


I think you looking at it wrong, TR's sole purpose until now has always been for driving training for the big team, now they also will be a PU development platform for the big team. It's a win/win for RB, which ever PU looks to be going stronger they can just take over, i think they are keen to see the honda perform well and get the whole works thing going again. If not, than they stick with renault. Also good for honda next season, they will have far less pressure on them supplying TR while they continue to try and fix their issues. The fact RB are willing to let a good driver go to help make this happen tells you all you need to know really ;)


Suppose Honda takes a significant step backwards with their engine next year. Suppose that Torro Rosso fails to score double digit points during the entire year. Will there really be less pressure on them to improve?


Of course there is going to be pressure on them to perform but no matter what scenario you come up with, there will be less pressure with that happening to a B team than a large team wanting to win championships. Do you think kvyat or <insert next young rb driver here> on the radio every race complaining about the PU is going to generate the same negative publicity as alonso saying the same thing?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:58 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.

Well they can, if they get in the right people with the right knowledge and experience, for example Mario Illien. Or if they manage to hit on the correct changes more quickly than Merc did as more in season development is allowed...
Whether they are likely to is another question but it's possible and I hope the McLaren Renault thing doesn't happen and Honda sort the PU. Either way I think taking the Renault is admission in the short term at least that they aren't going to be at the sharp end


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:01 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


But in Honda's case it seems they have made a very good engine, they just can not get it to work. the test engine looked like a world beater, but when they matched it up with the gearbox and car it was a dog, which they had to wind down to make it work.

The potential is still there when (OK, IF) they sort it. It could literally be an overnight transformation.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Depends what you mean by sharp end. They'll be aiming to fight with Red Bull next year so that may not be for titles depending on Renault's winter but even if they fall a bit short of them they'll still comfortably clear of the rest of the midfield at all the tracks rather than just 3/4 a year like the last couple of years.

Be competitive, get some podiums when it's your day,consolidate and start rebuilding with sponsors and try to make yourself an attractive option for the next regs if any Manufacturers are keen to enter.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:16 pm 
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I feel sorry for Palmer, he gets stick for being slow but Renault have basically delivered him a broken car for the whole season, Sainz will now be stuck with that if these rumours are true.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:51 pm 
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rivf1 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


I think you looking at it wrong, TR's sole purpose until now has always been for driving training for the big team, now they also will be a PU development platform for the big team. It's a win/win for RB, which ever PU looks to be going stronger they can just take over, i think they are keen to see the honda perform well and get the whole works thing going again. If not, than they stick with renault. Also good for honda next season, they will have far less pressure on them supplying TR while they continue to try and fix their issues. The fact RB are willing to let a good driver go to help make this happen tells you all you need to know really ;)


Their sole purpose isnt to just serve redbull. They also benefit from doing well and being competitive in the midfield. Werent they outqualufying redbull a couple of years ago? Why would redbull allow that then?

Bottom line is if you were to put this years honda pu in this years str car they would be horrid and fighting not to be last. Moreover the inability to finish races and lack of reliability arent doing the junior drivers any good, impeding their development.

Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:30 pm 
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moby wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


But in Honda's case it seems they have made a very good engine, they just can not get it to work. the test engine looked like a world beater, but when they matched it up with the gearbox and car it was a dog, which they had to wind down to make it work.

The potential is still there when (OK, IF) they sort it. It could literally be an overnight transformation.


When did the Honda engine beat the world? I must have been asleep that weekend.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


But in Honda's case it seems they have made a very good engine, they just can not get it to work. the test engine looked like a world beater, but when they matched it up with the gearbox and car it was a dog, which they had to wind down to make it work.

The potential is still there when (OK, IF) they sort it. It could literally be an overnight transformation.


When did the Honda engine beat the world? I must have been asleep that weekend.


You should have read right up to the full stop, not the comma.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:14 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.

But sticking it in the str means they have the option if they get it right, that's the whole point. They don't need confidence for next year, if they had it red bull would stick the engines straight in or McLaren wouldn't be thinking about leaving


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal. After all, Renault are immediately reallocating their supply to another team, one I would argue represents a significant upgrade on STR in terms of prestige, history, and also the potential to be successful using a Renault engine. They (Renault) are already gaining as a result, so if Sainz is leaving the Red Bull family permanently then whoever negotiated on Renault's behalf has done a phenomenal job!

And since they had the black on their livery because of 'Honda's heritage', I wonder if McLaren will go with a full orange colour scheme next year?


Good point. Renault have had their eye on Sainz for the longest but Redbull wouldnt let him walk. Renault have found a way to pry Sainz away and use the mclaren honda divorce to their advantage. That is brilliant negotiating.

Now, good luck to toro rosso as to me they seem like the biggest losers. I just dont believe honda will be competitive next year.

Hulk and sainz should make for a very interesting lineup.

Mclren and renault might actually work out. Who knows when merc and ferrari will have exhausted their engine development? This may allow renault to catch up and be at their level.


I think you looking at it wrong, TR's sole purpose until now has always been for driving training for the big team, now they also will be a PU development platform for the big team. It's a win/win for RB, which ever PU looks to be going stronger they can just take over, i think they are keen to see the honda perform well and get the whole works thing going again. If not, than they stick with renault. Also good for honda next season, they will have far less pressure on them supplying TR while they continue to try and fix their issues. The fact RB are willing to let a good driver go to help make this happen tells you all you need to know really ;)


Suppose Honda takes a significant step backwards with their engine next year. Suppose that Torro Rosso fails to score double digit points during the entire year. Will there really be less pressure on them to improve?

It's rumoured that STR has become a financial liability and is up for sale, when did you see them taking on pay drivers, it's said that Kvyat brings money to the team and I would be guessing that's what's keeping Gasly from getting a seat, also Sean Galeal who is presently 15th in the F2 standings is to be given 5 FP1 sessions this year with STR despite not being a Red Bull junior driver, but he does have plenty of money.

So Honda supply the team with free engines and supposedly $40M to their budget, that helps solve a financial headache for DM for a team that was set up just to train drivers, I think were STR finishes in the WCC is just secondary to DM?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:09 pm 
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moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


But in Honda's case it seems they have made a very good engine, they just can not get it to work. the test engine looked like a world beater, but when they matched it up with the gearbox and car it was a dog, which they had to wind down to make it work.

The potential is still there when (OK, IF) they sort it. It could literally be an overnight transformation.


When did the Honda engine beat the world? I must have been asleep that weekend.


You should have read right up to the full stop, not the comma.


I see. So it has never been a world beater.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Posts: 22323
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
You watch Honda pull out a stonking engine next year!!!


That really isn't possible. In engineering you build a good product then over time eke out more and more performance. Merc of 2017 is built upon the 2014 engine. They couldn't have simply built the 2017 engine in 2014. Doesn't work that way. So the best Honda can do is build a decent engine, that, over maybe 2-3 years can become a stonking engine. Not that it'd happen in a million years though, but if it were to happen it'd take several years.

I do realize your comment was tongue in cheek and a dig at Alonso, but there're a few who actually think Honda would suddenly have a lump that's the bee's knees.


But in Honda's case it seems they have made a very good engine, they just can not get it to work. the test engine looked like a world beater, but when they matched it up with the gearbox and car it was a dog, which they had to wind down to make it work.

The potential is still there when (OK, IF) they sort it. It could literally be an overnight transformation.


When did the Honda engine beat the world? I must have been asleep that weekend.

About 25 years ago, you may not have been born? :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:

I see. So it has never been a world beater.


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:15 pm 
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moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

I see. So it has never been a world beater.


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


It's not reliable.
It's not quick.
It drinks excessive amounts of fuel.

Other than that it's a great engine.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

I see. So it has never been a world beater.


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


It's not reliable.
It's not quick.
It drinks excessive amounts of fuel.

Other than that it's a great engine.


's wot I said :lol:


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