planetf1.com

It is currently Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1230
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

I see. So it has never been a world beater.


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


It's not reliable.
It's not quick.
It drinks excessive amounts of fuel.

Other than that it's a great engine.


's wot I said :lol:


"world beater". :lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

I see. So it has never been a world beater.


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


It's not reliable.
It's not quick.
It drinks excessive amounts of fuel.

Other than that it's a great engine.


's wot I said :lol:


"world beater". :lol: :lol: :lol:


Think of it as an Olympic runner with a broken toe. At the moment you can run faster than him, but he will heal and be back to speed a lot quicker than you can train up. He can not run as fast as you today

Besides, the phrase I typed was ' the test engine looked like a world beater '

Edit. You do know that the drivers were told to change gear 'in the wrong place' Imagine how much slower your car would be if toy changed up 3000 rpm lower.


Last edited by moby on Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1230
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:


You can read what I wrote, you decide what I said. I will say though that among others, Ron Dennis called it a little jewel.
If you know his history you know he made his money to establish Mclaren by selling second hand imported cars working from a pay phone in a cafe. I can not imagine him having the wool pulled over his eyes in the factory. He would not have gone there by himself, you can bet he had a team of top engineers with him

Yes, things went wrong when they put it in the car, but it is the same engine, and still needs sorting. The Japan engineers believe it is already the equivalent of the Renault, but loses out by not havin enough electrical energy to supplement it as the Renault does. That is with it still not being able to be fun at high spec due to problems.

It is not a reliable engine, but the general consensus among those who should know is still that it is a very good engine, or will be when it grows up :]


It's not reliable.
It's not quick.
It drinks excessive amounts of fuel.

Other than that it's a great engine.


's wot I said :lol:


"world beater". :lol: :lol: :lol:


Think of it as an Olympic runner with a broken toe. At the moment you can run faster than him, but he will heal and be back to speed a lot quicker than you can train up. He can not run as fast as you today

Besides, the phrase I typed was ' the test engine looked like a world beater '


The Honda engine is NOT an Olympic runner. It's a person born without legs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
Ok, I think it has run its course now. It will or will not come good, only time will tell.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2691
dompclarke wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.

But sticking it in the str means they have the option if they get it right, that's the whole point. They don't need confidence for next year, if they had it red bull would stick the engines straight in or McLaren wouldn't be thinking about leaving


I don't think you understand what I said at all. You keep repeating that Redbull can use the engine as an option but I've already acknowledged that. What I'm saying is that there is nothing that shows it will be a viable option because of Honda's recent history of struggles. Therefore the most likely scenario I see for Redbull's future is them sticking with Renault, or finding another engine partner for 2019. But I understand some believe in miracles and Honda will finally get it right and blah blah blah... Been there done that, I just don't believe anymore.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4196
Location: Michigan, USA
kleefton wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.

But sticking it in the str means they have the option if they get it right, that's the whole point. They don't need confidence for next year, if they had it red bull would stick the engines straight in or McLaren wouldn't be thinking about leaving

I don't think you understand what I said at all. You keep repeating that Redbull can use the engine as an option but I've already acknowledged that. What I'm saying is that there is nothing that shows it will be a viable option because of Honda's recent history of struggles. Therefore the most likely scenario I see for Redbull's future is them sticking with Renault, or finding another engine partner for 2019. But I understand some believe in miracles and Honda will finally get it right and blah blah blah... Been there done that, I just don't believe anymore.

I assume what dompclarke is wondering is why you seem to think it must be next year or never. If the Honda isn't good by 2018, Red Bull will still be able to use Renault engines; they aren't giving up their supply, after all. It's basically a no-lose scenario for RBR; either the Honda gets good and they can use it, or it never does and they stick with the engine they already have. They're risking nothing by saddling their junior team with the engine.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 172
Location: Adelaide, Australia
I think McLaren are foolish if this is whats going to happen ( And, By all accounts, seems to be the case ).

Renault is the 3rd best engine. And to be honest, I can't see McLaren building a better car than Red Bull to secure 3rd in the Championship next year. They'll finish 4th at best and that depends on Williams, Force India and Renault themselves.

I don't think it'll appease Alonso that much either, He'll be happier maybe, but not Happy.

Sure, It's an upgrade from Honda right now. But IF they do this, then thats another bridge burned for good. Unless another manufacturer comes in, Then they'll be stuck with Renault or possibly building their own for 2021.

For Red Bull, This is a masterstroke. They now can have their cake and eat it too. If the Honda gets better, Well they have another PU option. If Renault get better, then they have that too.

Horner must be rubbing his hands in glee right about now!

_________________
Any and all opinions are my own, they do not reflect the opinions of the FIA, FOM, Teams, Drivers, PlanetF1, Phase of the Moon, Rotation of the Earth or Aliens.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:59 pm
Posts: 202
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.

But sticking it in the str means they have the option if they get it right, that's the whole point. They don't need confidence for next year, if they had it red bull would stick the engines straight in or McLaren wouldn't be thinking about leaving

I don't think you understand what I said at all. You keep repeating that Redbull can use the engine as an option but I've already acknowledged that. What I'm saying is that there is nothing that shows it will be a viable option because of Honda's recent history of struggles. Therefore the most likely scenario I see for Redbull's future is them sticking with Renault, or finding another engine partner for 2019. But I understand some believe in miracles and Honda will finally get it right and blah blah blah... Been there done that, I just don't believe anymore.

I assume what dompclarke is wondering is why you seem to think it must be next year or never. If the Honda isn't good by 2018, Red Bull will still be able to use Renault engines; they aren't giving up their supply, after all. It's basically a no-lose scenario for RBR; either the Honda gets good and they can use it, or it never does and they stick with the engine they already have. They're risking nothing by saddling their junior team with the engine.

Yep, was the point that it doesn't only work if they come good next year


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 7701
jasonthebadger wrote:
I think McLaren are foolish if this is whats going to happen ( And, By all accounts, seems to be the case ).

Renault is the 3rd best engine. And to be honest, I can't see McLaren building a better car than Red Bull to secure 3rd in the Championship next year. They'll finish 4th at best and that depends on Williams, Force India and Renault themselves.

I don't think it'll appease Alonso that much either, He'll be happier maybe, but not Happy.

Sure, It's an upgrade from Honda right now. But IF they do this, then thats another bridge burned for good. Unless another manufacturer comes in, Then they'll be stuck with Renault or possibly building their own for 2021.

For Red Bull, This is a masterstroke. They now can have their cake and eat it too. If the Honda gets better, Well they have another PU option. If Renault get better, then they have that too.

Horner must be rubbing his hands in glee right about now!

If McLaren is really wants to win championship they need to build best cars. In a long run it will be good for them to build their own engine.

_________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 236
if this does turn out to be true, all I can hope for is that the decision is the right one.

Considering that engines seems to have narrower gaps, it should not be a bad call.

All I hope is that Renault and Honda are more or less on par next year at least. This is all that it's left to hope for.

All that matters after this decision is that Mclaren get their finances together.

It does indeed seem that the coup at Macca to oust Ron Dennis, was planned way ahead. It seems weird to me how Zak Brown managed to get sponsors for most of the teams, and Mclaren was the only one left behind. Now suddenly it seems that they will get a title sponsor for next year. Financially there are some tough days ahead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4196
Location: Michigan, USA
paul_gmb wrote:
It does indeed seem that the coup at Macca to oust Ron Dennis, was planned way ahead. It seems weird to me how Zak Brown managed to get sponsors for most of the teams, and Mclaren was the only one left behind. Now suddenly it seems that they will get a title sponsor for next year. Financially there are some tough days ahead.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph.

Where did you see that McLaren is going to get a title sponsor next year? And if it's true, why does it mean tough times are ahead? A title sponsor is exactly what they need to ward off tough times!

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 236
Exediron wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
It does indeed seem that the coup at Macca to oust Ron Dennis, was planned way ahead. It seems weird to me how Zak Brown managed to get sponsors for most of the teams, and Mclaren was the only one left behind. Now suddenly it seems that they will get a title sponsor for next year. Financially there are some tough days ahead.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph.

Where did you see that McLaren is going to get a title sponsor next year? And if it's true, why does it mean tough times are ahead? A title sponsor is exactly what they need to ward off tough times!


I think in some SKy F1 interview they said they have one lined up.

Even with that title sponsor, without the money from Honda, there are some tough times ahead financially. Unless they consider they can make this out of prize money. Then probably title sponsor and prize money should be there or there abouts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 1388
none of that matters , keeping Alonso was their prime concern


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 892
paul_gmb wrote:
Exediron wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
It does indeed seem that the coup at Macca to oust Ron Dennis, was planned way ahead. It seems weird to me how Zak Brown managed to get sponsors for most of the teams, and Mclaren was the only one left behind. Now suddenly it seems that they will get a title sponsor for next year. Financially there are some tough days ahead.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph.

Where did you see that McLaren is going to get a title sponsor next year? And if it's true, why does it mean tough times are ahead? A title sponsor is exactly what they need to ward off tough times!


I think in some SKy F1 interview they said they have one lined up.

Even with that title sponsor, without the money from Honda, there are some tough times ahead financially. Unless they consider they can make this out of prize money. Then probably title sponsor and prize money should be there or there abouts.


They specifically asked if it was a title sponsor, and he said no, but they do have some big names lined up to go on the car.
Ron had many sponsorship offers but he turned them down, he valued Mclaren adverising space much more than sponsors were willing to pay.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
jasonthebadger wrote:
I think McLaren are foolish if this is whats going to happen ( And, By all accounts, seems to be the case ).

Renault is the 3rd best engine. And to be honest, I can't see McLaren building a better car than Red Bull to secure 3rd in the Championship next year. They'll finish 4th at best and that depends on Williams, Force India and Renault themselves.

I don't think it'll appease Alonso that much either, He'll be happier maybe, but not Happy.

Sure, It's an upgrade from Honda right now. But IF they do this, then thats another bridge burned for good. Unless another manufacturer comes in, Then they'll be stuck with Renault or possibly building their own for 2021.

For Red Bull, This is a masterstroke. They now can have their cake and eat it too. If the Honda gets better, Well they have another PU option. If Renault get better, then they have that too.

Horner must be rubbing his hands in glee right about now!



The other blade on this knife, if it is true, is that they deny their biggest competitor the Honda engine.
Even if it turns out only to be on a par with the Renault, it means Mclaren do not have something RBR can not have the equivalent of or control.
With an equal engine Red Bull will win head to head with Mclaren over a season due to the 'flexy bits' no one else understands, so they can not copy or ban them. They also have a TAG badged engine, and it seems no one is saying what freedoms that gives them to tweak it.
Mclaren is in for a long hard period if this is true.



As an aside, there is a good article on the Honda here
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/07/02/inside-line-why-is-the-honda-engine-so-bad/

and the other side

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/09/05/inside-line-why-is-mclaren-keen-on-below-par-renault/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
James Allen now going with the Saintz move, but little on the Honda/Renault thing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 2583
Interesting tidbit from this Motorsport.com article on Pierre Gasly...

Quote:
As revealed by Motorsport.com at the weekend, Sainz will be loaned out to Renault by Red Bull for 2018, and efforts are being made for an early transition that could potentially come at early as the Sepang race on October 1.


If that is correct then it would indeed appear that Sainz is still contracted to Red Bull, and so would be able to step up to their senior team for 2019 if they had to replace Ricciardo (or Verstappen). Which would make sense all-around: Red Bull don't lose a driver they've invested in; Renault get a significant upgrade on Palmer and a strong driver pairing for 2017; Sainz gets a move to a stronger car, presumably with the possibility of extending that beyond 2018 if Red Bull's line-up remains unchanged for 2019; and it allows Red Bull to promote Pierre Gasly into F1.

Toro Rosso having to endure the Honda engine next year aside, this whole situation might be the most sense any situation in F1 has ever made!

_________________
Cheering for: Massa, Hulkenberg, Vandoorne
Pick 10 | 1 win, 8 podiums
2017: 7th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Interesting tidbit from this Motorsport.com article on Pierre Gasly...

Quote:
As revealed by Motorsport.com at the weekend, Sainz will be loaned out to Renault by Red Bull for 2018, and efforts are being made for an early transition that could potentially come at early as the Sepang race on October 1.


If that is correct then it would indeed appear that Sainz is still contracted to Red Bull, and so would be able to step up to their senior team for 2019 if they had to replace Ricciardo (or Verstappen). Which would make sense all-around: Red Bull don't lose a driver they've invested in; Renault get a significant upgrade on Palmer and a strong driver pairing for 2017; Sainz gets a move to a stronger car, presumably with the possibility of extending that beyond 2018 if Red Bull's line-up remains unchanged for 2019; and it allows Red Bull to promote Pierre Gasly into F1.

Toro Rosso having to endure the Honda engine next year aside, this whole situation might be the most sense any situation in F1 has ever made!


Sounds like, as on the PF1 main site he is quoted as telling Marca "Red Bull does its best for my career and so whatever they decide, I will accept it,"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Interesting tidbit from this Motorsport.com article on Pierre Gasly...

Quote:
As revealed by Motorsport.com at the weekend, Sainz will be loaned out to Renault by Red Bull for 2018, and efforts are being made for an early transition that could potentially come at early as the Sepang race on October 1.


If that is correct then it would indeed appear that Sainz is still contracted to Red Bull, and so would be able to step up to their senior team for 2019 if they had to replace Ricciardo (or Verstappen). Which would make sense all-around: Red Bull don't lose a driver they've invested in; Renault get a significant upgrade on Palmer and a strong driver pairing for 2017; Sainz gets a move to a stronger car, presumably with the possibility of extending that beyond 2018 if Red Bull's line-up remains unchanged for 2019; and it allows Red Bull to promote Pierre Gasly into F1.

Toro Rosso having to endure the Honda engine next year aside, this whole situation might be the most sense any situation in F1 has ever made!

Yes I heard this rumour as well and I hope it happens.

Giving Sainz to Renault unconditionally would have left them weak if Ricciardo or Verstappen were to leave, we already know that Kvyat can not cut it at a higher level and we have to yet to see how good Gasly might be.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 11:03 am
Posts: 305
moby wrote:

They also have a TAG badged engine, and it seems no one is saying what freedoms that gives them to tweak it.


They have no freedom to tweak it, it's homologated as a Renault engine. The TAG badging is nothing more than advertising and is not a loop hole around the homologation process.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
rivf1 wrote:
moby wrote:

They also have a TAG badged engine, and it seems no one is saying what freedoms that gives them to tweak it.


They have no freedom to tweak it, it's homologated as a Renault engine. The TAG badging is nothing more than advertising and is not a loop hole around the homologation process.


I know the hardware is fixed, but I wonder how much of the mapping etc they are able to play with? The electrical recovery etc is mostly set up and software and could make quite a difference during a race difference. There is also packaging and cooling to consider as is matching to the gearbox. I would be surprised if there were not some differences.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 11:03 am
Posts: 305
moby wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
moby wrote:

They also have a TAG badged engine, and it seems no one is saying what freedoms that gives them to tweak it.


They have no freedom to tweak it, it's homologated as a Renault engine. The TAG badging is nothing more than advertising and is not a loop hole around the homologation process.


I know the hardware is fixed, but I wonder how much of the mapping etc they are able to play with? The electrical recovery etc is mostly set up and software and could make quite a difference during a race difference. There is also packaging and cooling to consider as is matching to the gearbox. I would be surprised if there were not some differences.


Oh yeah they can and do tweak that stuff, RB run a completely different fuel/oil supplier now than Renault so they would have to tweak the mapping to match that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1571
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Interesting tidbit from this Motorsport.com article on Pierre Gasly...

Quote:
As revealed by Motorsport.com at the weekend, Sainz will be loaned out to Renault by Red Bull for 2018, and efforts are being made for an early transition that could potentially come at early as the Sepang race on October 1.


If that is correct then it would indeed appear that Sainz is still contracted to Red Bull, and so would be able to step up to their senior team for 2019 if they had to replace Ricciardo (or Verstappen). Which would make sense all-around: Red Bull don't lose a driver they've invested in; Renault get a significant upgrade on Palmer and a strong driver pairing for 2017; Sainz gets a move to a stronger car, presumably with the possibility of extending that beyond 2018 if Red Bull's line-up remains unchanged for 2019; and it allows Red Bull to promote Pierre Gasly into F1.

Toro Rosso having to endure the Honda engine next year aside, this whole situation might be the most sense any situation in F1 has ever made!

Yes I heard this rumour as well and I hope it happens.

Giving Sainz to Renault unconditionally would have left them weak if Ricciardo or Verstappen were to leave, we already know that Kvyat can not cut it at a higher level and we have to yet to see how good Gasly might be.


I'd be as well throwing this in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but here we go...

I think Kyvat is now very underrated. He showed very promising pace and skill for his age, but started to go in to a bit of a mental meltdown under increasing pressure. And then, at what is still a very young age, he goes from dreaming of a Red Bull WDC to being demoted and potentially out of a seat in an instant. I think he didn't respond to that too well, as he was essentially kicked whilst down. With his head straight, he could still be a very good driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3195
Some figures AMuS had at Spa for fuel consumption measurements which reflect power in these regs had Mercedes 2.5% ahead of Ferrari, 4% ahead of Renault and 7% ahead of Honda. So Honda currently are twice as far behind Renault as Renault are to Ferrari. You can see why we are where we are.

Seeing as we know Ferrari can be competitive at the 2.5% figure then Renault need to find 1.5% over their rivals in the winter while Honda needs 4.5%. I'm guessing McLaren felt or were shown that those gains will be achievable more mid term than short term and Honda being able to triple Renault's gains any time soon were minimal at best or fanciful at worst.

Couple of things though that raise doubts is how Ferrari can be closer to Mercedes at 2.5% than Renault(Red Bull) are to Ferrari at what I'm assuming is 1.5%. How bad is the Red Bull chassis compared to the Ferrari?. Does this explain why Red Bull are closer to Ferrari on power tracks than they are at chassis tracks this year?.

You would think Red Bull should be keeping Ferrari as honest as Ferrari are Mercedes if they are 1% closer but that's just not been the case. Anyway any time figures are published they should be taken with a pinch of salt of course but I thought it was interesting anyway.



Lot's of interesting info in this article, touches on a few subjects and not just the above. http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 61588.html

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 11:03 am
Posts: 305
Lotus49 wrote:
Some figures AMuS had at Spa for fuel consumption measurements which reflect power in these regs had Mercedes 2.5% ahead of Ferrari, 4% ahead of Renault and 7% ahead of Honda. So Honda currently are twice as far behind Renault as Renault are to Ferrari. You can see why we are where we are.

Seeing as we know Ferrari can be competitive at the 2.5% figure then Renault need to find 1.5% over their rivals in the winter while Honda needs 4.5%. I'm guessing McLaren felt or were shown that those gains will be achievable more mid term than short term and Honda being able to triple Renault's gains any time soon were minimal at best or fanciful at worst.

Couple of things though that raise doubts is how Ferrari can be closer to Mercedes at 2.5% than Renault(Red Bull) are to Ferrari at what I'm assuming is 1.5%. How bad is the Red Bull chassis compared to the Ferrari?. Does this explain why Red Bull are closer to Ferrari on power tracks than they are at chassis tracks this year?.

You would think Red Bull should be keeping Ferrari as honest as Ferrari are Mercedes if they are 1% closer but that's just not been the case. Anyway any time figures are published they should be taken with a pinch of salt of course but I thought it was interesting anyway.



Lot's of interesting info in this article, touches on a few subjects and not just the above. http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 61588.html


I gotta say i find it really hard to believe all the teams would willingly supply a media outlet with detailed fuel usage.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
One of the biggest losses of fuel is the inability to harvest energy through the MGU-H. This means having to burn fuel to replace the 'boost' from the battery, so burns the candle at both ends. Poor recovery means having to use more fuel, lost grunt from the recovery means having to use more fuel to make it up. lose/lose. It seems that most of Hondas problems stem from here. The engines themselves have been changed deliberately, few have actually broken down, it is this area that seems to auto destruct. ( as opposed to Renault, who have had (I think) 9 engine blows with RBR alone but the turbo's are OK)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Ennis wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Interesting tidbit from this Motorsport.com article on Pierre Gasly...

Quote:
As revealed by Motorsport.com at the weekend, Sainz will be loaned out to Renault by Red Bull for 2018, and efforts are being made for an early transition that could potentially come at early as the Sepang race on October 1.


If that is correct then it would indeed appear that Sainz is still contracted to Red Bull, and so would be able to step up to their senior team for 2019 if they had to replace Ricciardo (or Verstappen). Which would make sense all-around: Red Bull don't lose a driver they've invested in; Renault get a significant upgrade on Palmer and a strong driver pairing for 2017; Sainz gets a move to a stronger car, presumably with the possibility of extending that beyond 2018 if Red Bull's line-up remains unchanged for 2019; and it allows Red Bull to promote Pierre Gasly into F1.

Toro Rosso having to endure the Honda engine next year aside, this whole situation might be the most sense any situation in F1 has ever made!

Yes I heard this rumour as well and I hope it happens.

Giving Sainz to Renault unconditionally would have left them weak if Ricciardo or Verstappen were to leave, we already know that Kvyat can not cut it at a higher level and we have to yet to see how good Gasly might be.


I'd be as well throwing this in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but here we go...

I think Kyvat is now very underrated. He showed very promising pace and skill for his age, but started to go in to a bit of a mental meltdown under increasing pressure. And then, at what is still a very young age, he goes from dreaming of a Red Bull WDC to being demoted and potentially out of a seat in an instant. I think he didn't respond to that too well, as he was essentially kicked whilst down. With his head straight, he could still be a very good driver.

However the present reality for Kvyat is that he is getting beat by Sainz.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2691
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes of course redbull has another option now with honda. But that option only works if you are confident next years honda will be better than renault. Frankly i dont see why you would be after seeing what happened the past three years.

But sticking it in the str means they have the option if they get it right, that's the whole point. They don't need confidence for next year, if they had it red bull would stick the engines straight in or McLaren wouldn't be thinking about leaving

I don't think you understand what I said at all. You keep repeating that Redbull can use the engine as an option but I've already acknowledged that. What I'm saying is that there is nothing that shows it will be a viable option because of Honda's recent history of struggles. Therefore the most likely scenario I see for Redbull's future is them sticking with Renault, or finding another engine partner for 2019. But I understand some believe in miracles and Honda will finally get it right and blah blah blah... Been there done that, I just don't believe anymore.

I assume what dompclarke is wondering is why you seem to think it must be next year or never. If the Honda isn't good by 2018, Red Bull will still be able to use Renault engines; they aren't giving up their supply, after all. It's basically a no-lose scenario for RBR; either the Honda gets good and they can use it, or it never does and they stick with the engine they already have. They're risking nothing by saddling their junior team with the engine.


I never said Redbull was risking anything. I said that Toro Rosso might lose out next year and Redbull's hope that Honda will be an option will probably turn out to be fruitless. Jeez...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 61
AravJ wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Exediron wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
It does indeed seem that the coup at Macca to oust Ron Dennis, was planned way ahead. It seems weird to me how Zak Brown managed to get sponsors for most of the teams, and Mclaren was the only one left behind. Now suddenly it seems that they will get a title sponsor for next year. Financially there are some tough days ahead.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph.

Where did you see that McLaren is going to get a title sponsor next year? And if it's true, why does it mean tough times are ahead? A title sponsor is exactly what they need to ward off tough times!


I think in some SKy F1 interview they said they have one lined up.

Even with that title sponsor, without the money from Honda, there are some tough times ahead financially. Unless they consider they can make this out of prize money. Then probably title sponsor and prize money should be there or there abouts.


They specifically asked if it was a title sponsor, and he said no, but they do have some big names lined up to go on the car.
Ron had many sponsorship offers but he turned them down, he valued Mclaren adverising space much more than sponsors were willing to pay.


Where can this interview be found as I must admit I have not seen these comments come from Zak, nor have I seen any rumoured 'big names' linked to the McLaren car. Does anyone have rumours/links for this? As recently the only sponsors McLaren are attracting are not well known brands in comparison to some of their competitors and for what I would guess at relatively cheap deals with their small exposure on the cars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1230
paul_gmb wrote:


Even with that title sponsor, without the money from Honda, there are some tough times ahead financially. Unless they consider they can make this out of prize money. Then probably title sponsor and prize money should be there or there abouts.


Wrong. Zak Brown from McLaren states that they have no need for Honda's money. They are perfectly fine without.

“Fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders that we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

"We’re not financially challenged. We can navigate any financial situation.”

http://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-ca ... a-divorce/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1230
moby wrote:
One of the biggest losses of fuel is the inability to harvest energy through the MGU-H. This means having to burn fuel to replace the 'boost' from the battery, so burns the candle at both ends. Poor recovery means having to use more fuel, lost grunt from the recovery means having to use more fuel to make it up. lose/lose. It seems that most of Hondas problems stem from here. The engines themselves have been changed deliberately, few have actually broken down, it is this area that seems to auto destruct. ( as opposed to Renault, who have had (I think) 9 engine blows with RBR alone but the turbo's are OK)


Some stats on Honda's pitiful engine. Stoffel Vandoorne has used up to and including Monza:

10 MGU-H's
10 turbo chargers
7 ICE's
7 MGU-K's.

And he's facing a penalty in Singapore most likely so this list will get longer and longer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7500
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
One of the biggest losses of fuel is the inability to harvest energy through the MGU-H. This means having to burn fuel to replace the 'boost' from the battery, so burns the candle at both ends. Poor recovery means having to use more fuel, lost grunt from the recovery means having to use more fuel to make it up. lose/lose. It seems that most of Hondas problems stem from here. The engines themselves have been changed deliberately, few have actually broken down, it is this area that seems to auto destruct. ( as opposed to Renault, who have had (I think) 9 engine blows with RBR alone but the turbo's are OK)


Some stats on Honda's pitiful engine. Stoffel Vandoorne has used up to and including Monza:

10 MGU-H's
10 turbo chargers
7 ICE's
7 MGU-K's.

And he's facing a penalty in Singapore most likely so this list will get longer and longer.


The engines were mostly upgrades, not cooked. There is also a few gear boxes to add isn't there?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4196
Location: Michigan, USA
Lotus49 wrote:
Couple of things though that raise doubts is how Ferrari can be closer to Mercedes at 2.5% than Renault(Red Bull) are to Ferrari at what I'm assuming is 1.5%. How bad is the Red Bull chassis compared to the Ferrari?. Does this explain why Red Bull are closer to Ferrari on power tracks than they are at chassis tracks this year?.

You would think Red Bull should be keeping Ferrari as honest as Ferrari are Mercedes if they are 1% closer but that's just not been the case. Anyway any time figures are published they should be taken with a pinch of salt of course but I thought it was interesting anyway.

You raise an interesting point. Everyone gets on Macca for talking up their chassis when it's impossible to compare, but there's strong evidence to think that 2 out of the 4 RBR chassis designs since 2014 haven't actually been very good, and certainly not the class of the field.

2014: Good chassis, possibly the best on the grid.
2015: Not good at all. Toro Rosso was better for much of the year.
2016: Good again; possibly even the best by season's end.
2017: Probably weak, and certainly no better than 3rd best.

Everyone seems to take for granted that RBR really does always build a great chassis and it's just the engine holding them back. The new deal will leave both them and Macca with less room to hide.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 1798
This article boldly claims "Honda is still in Formula One for the time being.The board wanted to switch off the lights by the end of next year, if the engineers should not get the hybrid technology under control. This is probably postponed. With Toro Rosso the Japanese get a more easy-care partner as McLaren. And it will be cheaper for them than the number with the racing team from Woking."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 52412.html

_________________
"Come on, get the McLaren out of the way!”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 892
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Couple of things though that raise doubts is how Ferrari can be closer to Mercedes at 2.5% than Renault(Red Bull) are to Ferrari at what I'm assuming is 1.5%. How bad is the Red Bull chassis compared to the Ferrari?. Does this explain why Red Bull are closer to Ferrari on power tracks than they are at chassis tracks this year?.

You would think Red Bull should be keeping Ferrari as honest as Ferrari are Mercedes if they are 1% closer but that's just not been the case. Anyway any time figures are published they should be taken with a pinch of salt of course but I thought it was interesting anyway.

You raise an interesting point. Everyone gets on Macca for talking up their chassis when it's impossible to compare, but there's strong evidence to think that 2 out of the 4 RBR chassis designs since 2014 haven't actually been very good, and certainly not the class of the field.

2014: Good chassis, possibly the best on the grid.
2015: Not good at all. Toro Rosso was better for much of the year.
2016: Good again; possibly even the best by season's end.
2017: Probably weak, and certainly no better than 3rd best.

Everyone seems to take for granted that RBR really does always build a great chassis and it's just the engine holding them back. The new deal will leave both them and Macca with less room to hide.

When it comes to power tracks I did not watch the italian gp, but remember they were very creative and agressive at Spa with wing angles and tire choices. The safety car also helped. So the reverse may be true that RBR is making the PU look better than it is.
I do agree with your yearly assesment. But must add their in season development and adaptability is probably the best and 2017 is no exception


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2167
mas wrote:
This article boldly claims "Honda is still in Formula One for the time being.The board wanted to switch off the lights by the end of next year, if the engineers should not get the hybrid technology under control. This is probably postponed. With Toro Rosso the Japanese get a more easy-care partner as McLaren. And it will be cheaper for them than the number with the racing team from Woking."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 52412.html


I never understood why Honda were so gung-ho for getting Alonso and paying him top dollar... they've wasted a fortune when they would have been much better off concentrating on getting the engine right. If they had got it right then drivers would have been clambering for the seat at Macca.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1563
ALESI wrote:
mas wrote:
This article boldly claims "Honda is still in Formula One for the time being.The board wanted to switch off the lights by the end of next year, if the engineers should not get the hybrid technology under control. This is probably postponed. With Toro Rosso the Japanese get a more easy-care partner as McLaren. And it will be cheaper for them than the number with the racing team from Woking."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 52412.html


I never understood why Honda were so gung-ho for getting Alonso and paying him top dollar... they've wasted a fortune when they would have been much better off concentrating on getting the engine right. If they had got it right then drivers would have been clambering for the seat at Macca.


Yeah, it's all Alonso's fault.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3195
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 61
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3195
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group