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Would Honda engines be better if McLaren had permitted Red Bull as an additional engine customer?
Yes - more testing and budget would have accelerated development. 58%  58%  [ 19 ]
No, Honda would not perform even with more testing and budget. 42%  42%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 33
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:39 am 
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McLaren are now seeking divorce from an unhappy engine deal, and it seems Red Bull have power of veto, but feel another engine customer of the standard of McLaren can only help get better engines.

How revealing is this considering that not very long ago, Red Bull was in a dire situation and seeking divorce from their engine contract and looked to become an additional customer for Honda alongside McLaren, but McLaren vetoed the deal.

McLaren said 'no' to prevent another customer have access to their engine. A strong competitor with the same engine was not on for McLaren. Egotistical McLaren were thinking they could win the championship not on strength of their car design, but on the strength of their outsourced engine!

I remember at the time thinking 'look at where you are and all the teams you have to leapfrog before your biggest concern would be Red Bull with the same engine!' But the toxic culture of McLaren was 'we don't share with anyone'.

The result of that decision was Honda having one high profile customer in place of two, effectively halving the testing permitted and slowing the rate of development.

It is possible that twice the budget from having two customers and twice the testing and race info available may have made no difference. I suggest it is highly likely it would have made a difference.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Complaining that McLaren vetoed red bull but no mention of Ferrari and Mercedes refusing to supply McLaren now...
I agree extra teams would be a bonus for Honda, but McLaren were burnt when Brawn got Mercedes engines which led to them not being the main team. It's understandable they didn't want red bull coming in and potentially stealing the works engine!
Aside from this they should have been doing their best to get another team on board, like this year if they weren't messing around with changing suppliers Sauber would most likely have joined for next year.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:12 pm 
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And with regards to the question, the improvement of the PU is more linked to Honda getting the likes of Ilmor involved, more milage would help but without the extra expertise I don't think they'd develop fast enough.
I've not voted as I'm in a grey area between the choices


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:42 pm 
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Did anyone else see the interview with Horner during the rained off qualifying? He said Red Bull can veto who Renault supply due to a clause put in when Ron Dennis blocked Red Bull from being able to receive Mercedes engines.

He did say when it was but I can't fully remember, think it was pre 2010 though. Would be kinda funny if McLaren were blocked by Red Bull due to a clause basically added to get back at Ron Dennis all those years ago.


Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Did anyone else hear Ted Kravitz say in his post race segment that if McLaren dump Honda then Honda may well sue McLaren for breach of contract? If they do then I think McLaren would have good grounds to counter sue Honda for not providing an engine that is fit for purpose for 3 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:49 pm 
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iano wrote:
McLaren are now seeking divorce from an unhappy engine deal, and it seems Red Bull have power of veto, but feel another engine customer of the standard of McLaren can only help get better engines.

How revealing is this considering that not very long ago, Red Bull was in a dire situation and seeking divorce from their engine contract and looked to become an additional customer for Honda alongside McLaren, but McLaren vetoed the deal.

McLaren said 'no' to prevent another customer have access to their engine. A strong competitor with the same engine was not on for McLaren. Egotistical McLaren were thinking they could win the championship not on strength of their car design, but on the strength of their outsourced engine!

I remember at the time thinking 'look at where you are and all the teams you have to leapfrog before your biggest concern would be Red Bull with the same engine!' But the toxic culture of McLaren was 'we don't share with anyone'.

The result of that decision was Honda having one high profile customer in place of two, effectively halving the testing permitted and slowing the rate of development.

It is possible that twice the budget from having two customers and twice the testing and race info available may have made no difference. I suggest it is highly likely it would have made a difference.


It wouldn't have made a difference with the first engine as it was just totally adverse to lean burn. Honda wouldn't be able to supply enough parts this year for a customer and would have been in a lot of trouble.

Honda said logistically they were only ready to supply another team from this year on wards as well, the approach from RB/STR was never actually official in the first place, frying pan and fire springs to mind. Ron just told Bernie he would do the same as Mercedes and Ferrari and block RB if they tried.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:54 pm 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
Did anyone else hear Ted Kravitz say in his post race segment that if McLaren dump Honda then Honda may well sue McLaren for breach of contract? If they do then I think McLaren would have good grounds to counter sue Honda for not providing an engine that is fit for purpose for 3 years.

I heard that. Though i think what he said is extreme. They are in negotiation to prevent just that. Technically Honda wont be able to sue in the first place if there was a performance clause in the contract so i dont think there will be a counter sue if it does come to that

But yes Mclaren has made alot of strategic mistakes, i hope braking up with Honda does not come back to bite them in a few years


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Although Honda were not set up to receive data from multiple sources, if they had, that extra data definitely would have led to a quicker development cycle. That is why teams run two cars, to maximize the amount of data collected. This is just simple Engineering 101.

As for the politics? Although team principals may smile at each other, shake hands, and be cordial. they know that their teams are locked in a death match with their competitors. They scrutinize each other, they protest, they do everything possible to hurt any other team's chances. So if this kind of opportunity was handed to Horner, it is not even a personal option, exercise veto and kick them when they are down.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:03 pm 
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no, it's exclusively the problem of the engine and the engine manufacturer.

But making an engine takes time, so you either invest time or you do not. Mclaren chose NOT to continue it's investement and swap to Renault.

Big mistake from my POV, but it is what it is.

Ron must be laughing like crazy. At the same time, he is seeing all his work go down the drain.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:11 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Ron must be laughing like crazy. At the same time, he is seeing all his work go down the drain.

McLaren's problems over the last decade stem from Ron's mismanagement.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:15 pm 
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are McLaren just changing to Renault, to keep Alonso happy because it seems a completely pointless and financially stupid thing to do

at the end of the day they are still a business , not a Fernando Alonso appreciation society and with some highly talented youngsters coming tru , McLaren do not seem to be thinking ahead


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:25 pm 
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slide wrote:
are McLaren just changing to Renault, to keep Alonso happy because it seems a completely pointless and financially stupid thing to do


And all this ignores the very real possibility that Red Bull will have a better chassis, so McLaren would be (at best) the second fastest team with a Renault engine. Which would most likely be still behind Mercedes and Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:46 pm 
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2nd fastest Renault team is much more preferable to being the fastest Honda team.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:51 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
2nd fastest Renault team is much more preferable to being the fastest Honda team.

:nod: :nod: :nod:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Horner is only giving half his thoughts here though. As well as what he said, what he thought would have contained something along the lines of 'and leave Honda engines available for us to consider'


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:32 pm 
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No, I believe Honda is too incompetent to benefit from more data, as they proved by ruining a perfectly good engine from the end of 2016 into 2017. The only difference is they'd have made a joke of Red Bull as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
No, I believe Honda is too incompetent to benefit from more data, as they proved by ruining a perfectly good engine from the end of 2016 into 2017. The only difference is they'd have made a joke of Red Bull as well.

They changed concept as their previous engine couldn't incorporate the lean burn, or at least incorporate it properly. They had no choice but to chase this new concept as they would never be competitive without and have a chance with it.
Honda are sticking to this concept next year while Renault are rumoured to be changing theirs, good chance they'll 'ruin a perfectly good engine' too.
Also although the Honda was improving last year I still don't think it was up to perfectly good engine level!

Personally think ditching Honda for Renault would be a mistake, though it's not my choice so let's see what happens.

Red Bull Honda 2019 champions?...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:42 pm 
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McLaren are leaving works engine Honda and going to customer engine Renault with a huge loss of funds and a loss of security that Honda brings and what happened to you can't win a championship with a customer team

its not even that the Renault engine is much better anyway ,and McLaren are so plzd with themselves because Alonso will stay with the Renault engine , but not with Honda engine , so has Alonso taken a big paycut , now that McLaren have an engine bill to pay

I would love to hear ron Dennis's view on this and particulary the funding side and future of the team


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:53 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
No, I believe Honda is too incompetent to benefit from more data, as they proved by ruining a perfectly good engine from the end of 2016 into 2017. The only difference is they'd have made a joke of Red Bull as well.

They changed concept as their previous engine couldn't incorporate the lean burn, or at least incorporate it properly. They had no choice but to chase this new concept as they would never be competitive without and have a chance with it.
Honda are sticking to this concept next year while Renault are rumoured to be changing theirs, good chance they'll 'ruin a perfectly good engine' too.
Also although the Honda was improving last year I still don't think it was up to perfectly good engine level!

Personally think ditching Honda for Renault would be a mistake, though it's not my choice so let's see what happens.

Red Bull Honda 2019 champions?...

I read a Renault interview where they said next year's engine will be an evolution of what they have now i.e. same concept. Dont be too surprised then if Red Bull and McLaren replace Ferrari and Mercedes at the top :nod: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:08 pm 
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mas wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
No, I believe Honda is too incompetent to benefit from more data, as they proved by ruining a perfectly good engine from the end of 2016 into 2017. The only difference is they'd have made a joke of Red Bull as well.

They changed concept as their previous engine couldn't incorporate the lean burn, or at least incorporate it properly. They had no choice but to chase this new concept as they would never be competitive without and have a chance with it.
Honda are sticking to this concept next year while Renault are rumoured to be changing theirs, good chance they'll 'ruin a perfectly good engine' too.
Also although the Honda was improving last year I still don't think it was up to perfectly good engine level!

Personally think ditching Honda for Renault would be a mistake, though it's not my choice so let's see what happens.

Red Bull Honda 2019 champions?...

I read a Renault interview where they said next year's engine will be an evolution of what they have now i.e. same concept. Dont be too surprised then if Red Bull and McLaren replace Ferrari and Mercedes at the top :nod: :lol:


Is the Merc and Ferrari not going to evolve also? From a higher start point


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Sure, but it sounds like a strong update if they couldn't finish it this season. The point I was making was that no-one is really looking at the potential upside of this switch so I just floated that radically different to the current status quo scenario for conversational balance.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Hondas main problem now is that they are under the gun to DELIVER

FAST + RELIABLE = NOT CHEAP
RELIABLE + CHEAP = NOT FAST
FAST + CHEAP = NOT RELIABLE

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:34 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Ron must be laughing like crazy. At the same time, he is seeing all his work go down the drain.

McLaren's problems over the last decade stem from Ron's mismanagement.


I'm afraid I must agree. Although Ron's management style did bring success previously leaders must adapt to changing realities or they and their organizations suffer. Clearly no one had the stones to say that they agreed with the need for a works engine to win a WCC but a totally untested, unproven supplier unwilling to work in the UK or accept help from outside the org was HEAVILY laden with risk. Well, that risk never managed or mitigated and it realised pretty darn quickly init.

"Ron, you're bleedin' bonkers" is literally all they had to say. Ended up with him losing is seat at both the race team and the company.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:13 pm 
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slide wrote:
McLaren are leaving works engine Honda and going to customer engine Renault with a huge loss of funds and a loss of security that Honda brings and what happened to you can't win a championship with a customer team

its not even that the Renault engine is much better anyway ,and McLaren are so plzd with themselves because Alonso will stay with the Renault engine , but not with Honda engine , so has Alonso taken a big paycut , now that McLaren have an engine bill to pay

I would love to hear ron Dennis's view on this and particulary the funding side and future of the team

6 wins and 36 podiums would be unthinkable for McLaren.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:30 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Did anyone else see the interview with Horner during the rained off qualifying? He said Red Bull can veto who Renault supply due to a clause put in when Ron Dennis blocked Red Bull from being able to receive Mercedes engines.

He did say when it was but I can't fully remember, think it was pre 2010 though. Would be kinda funny if McLaren were blocked by Red Bull due to a clause basically added to get back at Ron Dennis all those years ago.

It would, but | reckon RB will be rubbing their hands together at this. Sets them up for a no-risk trial towards becoming a Works team and allowing them to potentially move away from Renault, which hasn't been performing to the standards they want


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:31 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
slide wrote:
McLaren are leaving works engine Honda and going to customer engine Renault with a huge loss of funds and a loss of security that Honda brings and what happened to you can't win a championship with a customer team

its not even that the Renault engine is much better anyway ,and McLaren are so plzd with themselves because Alonso will stay with the Renault engine , but not with Honda engine , so has Alonso taken a big paycut , now that McLaren have an engine bill to pay

I would love to hear ron Dennis's view on this and particulary the funding side and future of the team

6 wins and 36 podiums would be unthinkable for McLaren.

True, but a title is also unthinkable for Red Bull


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:33 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
2nd fastest Renault team is much more preferable to being the fastest Honda team.

2nd anything wouldn't normally be good enough for McLaren.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:18 am 
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LBET wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Ron must be laughing like crazy. At the same time, he is seeing all his work go down the drain.

McLaren's problems over the last decade stem from Ron's mismanagement.


I'm afraid I must agree. Although Ron's management style did bring success previously leaders must adapt to changing realities or they and their organizations suffer. Clearly no one had the stones to say that they agreed with the need for a works engine to win a WCC but a totally untested, unproven supplier unwilling to work in the UK or accept help from outside the org was HEAVILY laden with risk. Well, that risk never managed or mitigated and it realised pretty darn quickly init.

"Ron, you're bleedin' bonkers" is literally all they had to say. Ended up with him losing is seat at both the race team and the company.


I understand your point of view, but I for one I am evaluating this from my own business experience. What I mostly learned, is that especially in highly competitive environments you have ups and downs.

More important, you have to do things differently to get that last edge. If you always do what others are doing, you will end up with the same results, or have to be way better to succeed.

In F1 I have seen cycles, a development phase, a winning phase, a mediocre phase. It happend to Ferrari, it happend toMclaren, it happend to Redbull. You can't be winning all the time, it is nearly impossible. But you also need PATIENCE. A lot of it.

Doing things differently let's you try things and expand experience. This is the approach I loved about Ron.

I am not saying this is guaranteed to bring success, but it worked for Mclaren in the last 30 years.

So while I do agree with your points, an untested supplier etc, sometimes you have to do it differently. I have no doubt Honda will get it right eventually. They don't need a monster of an engine, they just need a decent engine. It's all a matter of how long you want to wait.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:22 am 
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Late 2015, Red Bull desperately wanted to leave Renault and had approached Honda, but reports are that McLaren Vetoed Honda supplying Red Bull.

Sharing an engine supplier with a competitive team was unthinkable!

Now, two years later, McLaren are desperate and will finally share an engine supplier with Red Bull.

To me, back in 2015, the thinking that 'we cannot share' - rather than 'we need to do something different to be competitive with Mercedes and Ferrari' was the sign of a non-cooperative culture at McLaren. Unless that culture has changed sharing an engine supplier now will still be a problem.

So, now Toro Rosso becomes the Honda customer, with an option for Red Bull, (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/881715/1/horner-toro-rossohonda-deal-would-give-red-bull-an-option)which would finally give Honda the two customer teams. How ironic would it be if McLaren again ends up behind Red Bull, being beaten by Red Bull using the engine supplier McLaren was too pig-headed to share?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:55 am 
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Zoue wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
2nd fastest Renault team is much more preferable to being the fastest Honda team.

2nd anything wouldn't normally be good enough for McLaren.


Those days are looooooooooong gone.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:56 am 
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Zoue wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
slide wrote:
McLaren are leaving works engine Honda and going to customer engine Renault with a huge loss of funds and a loss of security that Honda brings and what happened to you can't win a championship with a customer team

its not even that the Renault engine is much better anyway ,and McLaren are so plzd with themselves because Alonso will stay with the Renault engine , but not with Honda engine , so has Alonso taken a big paycut , now that McLaren have an engine bill to pay

I would love to hear ron Dennis's view on this and particulary the funding side and future of the team

6 wins and 36 podiums would be unthinkable for McLaren.

True, but a title is also unthinkable for Red Bull


And a title with Honda is "thinkable"?

8O 8O 8O


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:06 am 
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iano wrote:
It is possible that twice the budget from having two customers and twice the testing and race info available may have made no difference. I suggest it is highly likely it would have made a difference.


I've mentioned this a lot.

The decision to split from Merc didn't come soon enough in my view. Honda needed more time to generally build an F1 engine. This was proved by not just the lack of BHP in it's first race but the fact Mclaren looked like their car wasn't built properly around it.

Still.. McLaren can only blame them selves. They should have signed up to Merc (even in their second rate engine) for 3 years so they could work alongside Honda for future planning. I work in a tech job and my predecessor was forced to switch from one system to another in a very short time - guess what? it failed, caused a nightmare and should not have been done.

I find it weird that only now have people fully given up on Honda. Taken 3 years of nightmares to finally say enough is enough. The engine probably needs 2 more years at least but has any team like Mclaren got that time? financially? That's two years at least of fighting for scraps which means nothing.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:28 pm 
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It's quite simple: NO

Too much data around to support it...

First off, Mercedes seems to have done a pretty good job making a fairly good engine for the first year with no testing at all. Ferrari got the hang of the engine through a winter with no testing.

We have heard too many scare stories of how the Japanese have been working on this, refusing to go out of shop seeking information, refusing outside help, and messing up all kinds of issues through very Japanese, but obscure for anyone else, ways of communication.

I fear the change needed was more of substance than of quantity, even if quantity wouldn't have hurt.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:34 pm 
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As we keep hearing, Honda are in it to learn stuff. Where as say Renault would bring in a guy from Merc with the knowledge, Honda are making home grown. This is going to be slower and there are going to be mistakes, because the guy that made the mistake in on a different engine is not there to tell them. This is part of why it is no good Honda just flooding the benches with people doing stuff, because it does not get into the learning tree from the right place.

Once the DO know what they are doing, things should come along leaps and bounds, but just like your kid making a cart, what seems like a good idea sometimes falls off when you get on it to ride. They remember this next time (both of them :lol: ) and understand why it happened and next time can make a better one than the kid who did what Dad said was good.

Honda are going to have lots of problems, but know why they have them (well, maybe :( ) and make an better engine so Red bull can win the championship in 2020


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:30 am 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
Did anyone else hear Ted Kravitz say in his post race segment that if McLaren dump Honda then Honda may well sue McLaren for breach of contract? If they do then I think McLaren would have good grounds to counter sue Honda for not providing an engine that is fit for purpose for 3 years.


And Honda's 'proof' that they delivered what was promised is Alanso's Fastest Race Lap at Spa! One lap does not, a race, make, however, it does sharpen a lawyers argument.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Just had this video recommended for me to watch one youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5usgJJOhz4Q

Several years of Mclaren Honda's problems. Alonso moans soooo much!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:43 pm 
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His moaning doesn't bother me tbh, it's 3 years and they can barely finish a race distance. The few races they do finish is not even close to being podiums let alone wins.

The best driver on the grid and he has had such bad cars for so many years. Alonso has made some dodgy stuff in his career and some people might call it karma, but he is far better than a 2xWDC.

If a company like Honda can't make an engine like this shouldn't we start to question these regs?

Edit: I like the idea of turbo V6's with hybrid systems but maybe it was too much too soon?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:14 pm 
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I read a stat that he'd retired more times in the 2 and half seasons of McLaren-Honda than he has in his entire career before that which is crazy and explains the moaning.

Ouch.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:01 pm 
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I think it's 22 retirements whilst driving for McLaren Honda vs 21 retirements in the 10 seasons between 2004 and 2013.


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