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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:50 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

Prema's recollection is same as mine. He asked "whether it was going to be like this all race", and they said yes. Tell me how that is asking for a team order rather than asking whether Vettel would be slower than him all race and he wouldn't be ordered through?

...or Vettel is going to be slower throughout the race and he's not allowed to challenge him, not once did Kimi make any kind of attempt to pass Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hungary has a nice long straight.
As Mickey Mouse circuits go, it's not bad. But at a bit under 800m, it is more than 200m shorter than the distance from the Raidillon to Kemmel - and that's without taking into account the run from La Source to the Raidillon, without any great corners that rely on downforce. That nearly doubles the distance to 2km, and still we see DRS overtakes fail. It's not as easy as having a nice long straight, between more or less equal cars.

Edit: I forgot to add that I felt that, at the Hungaroring, Kimi did initiate a discussion with the team, but it was fairly clear what Ferrari wanted without any clear orders. That means what it means.

I'm not saying that Kimi would have passed Vettel just that he never tried and for me the radio calls were him asking for permission.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

Prema's recollection is same as mine. He asked "whether it was going to be like this all race", and they said yes. Tell me how that is asking for a team order rather than asking whether Vettel would be slower than him all race and he wouldn't be ordered through?

...or Vettel is going to be slower throughout the race and he's not allowed to challenge him, not once did Kimi make any kind of attempt to pass Vettel.


That's your interpretation, not anything "clear" nor "fact".

The later we have already established. I repeat myself:
Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.

Well then he clearly didn't ask "permission to attack" if he needed pokerman to interpret.
And then clearly no "no attack" TO was issued in either case.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:13 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

Prema's recollection is same as mine. He asked "whether it was going to be like this all race", and they said yes. Tell me how that is asking for a team order rather than asking whether Vettel would be slower than him all race and he wouldn't be ordered through?

...or Vettel is going to be slower throughout the race and he's not allowed to challenge him, not once did Kimi make any kind of attempt to pass Vettel.


That's your interpretation, not anything "clear" nor "fact".

The later we have already established. I repeat myself:
Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

My interpretation because Kimi was not allowed the overcut either.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.

Well then he clearly didn't ask "permission to attack" if he needed pokerman to interpret.
And then clearly no "no attack" TO was issued in either case.

If Kimi was allowed to race Vettel then he would have been allowed the overcut.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.

Well then he clearly didn't ask "permission to attack" if he needed pokerman to interpret.
And then clearly no "no attack" TO was issued in either case.

If Kimi was allowed to race Vettel then he would have been allowed the overcut.

Now, that would be a different issue to debate.
Apparently both Finns understand well their respective roles in this WDC race.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.

Well then he clearly didn't ask "permission to attack" if he needed pokerman to interpret.
And then clearly no "no attack" TO was issued in either case.

If Kimi was allowed to race Vettel then he would have been allowed the overcut.

Now, that would be a different issue to debate.
Apparently both Finns understand well their respective roles in this WDC race.

Well it's something I've said before and it ties in with Kimi not being able to challenge Vettel for the lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:49 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.


If they are both running in low power settings, that is the same as them both running in high power settings - fair fight. If Bottas was quicker he would catch up.

Also, qualifying on pole in tricky conditions, 2.5 seconds ahead of your closest rival who messed up half of his flying laps and crucially his final run to end up 6th - I wouldn't call that on a platter. If anything I would say Bottas got 2nd on the platter with the removal of the two Red Bulls in front of him that may have actually been able to beat him or at least put up a much bigger fight than Ocon and Stroll.

He put himself into a good position with a very good performance on Saturday and Bottas overtaking Hamilton to win a GP? Rosberg managed that 0 times. Hamilton has not lost a normal race to his team mate that he lead on the first lap (that he finished) since 2013 in the fast qualifier tyre eating Mercedes.

The ones he has lost since Spa 2013 are;
Spa 2014, collision with Nico
Monaco 2015, pit stop error
Malaysia 2016, engine blow

He also lost Australia 2017 and Malaysia 2015 to Vettel but that is a different to a team mate as you know he can't undercut you or overtake via the pit stops.


The race, you know, what they do on Sunday? That was handed to Hamilton because he did a superb job under difficult circumstances on the previous day (Saturday) in qualifying. I have to straighten things out because you are mixing days.

It was painfully obvious to me, that once Bottas secured second place in the running, he would not be allowed to challenge Hamilton. Yes, his chances to close and pass Hamilton were very low, but (and this is from the perspective of a fan desiring to see competition) he was not allowed the opportunity. Instead Hamilton put it on cruise control, Bottas took station where he would be relatively close but well clear of any dirty air, and that's all that happened.

There is a vast difference between "yea, he probably would not have been able to do it" and "he was not allowed the opportunity".

Mercedes (it took them a few years) finally learned to manage Hamilton and his teammate. During the Rosberg/Hamilton feuding years, either driver would turn up his engine settings in an attempt to attack the other. It got to the ridiculous stage where both drivers were told to turn down their engine settings, neither complied, and they went after each other. And in 2017 where we have witnessed many different drivers and manufacturers in serious trouble with grid penalties, it is perfectly logical for Mercedes do everything possible to conserve their precious resources. In the interests of the team, turning the engines down is sane and logical. From the perspective of fans who paid to attend the race or those watching on TV, they wanted to see competition and instead were cheated by team orders.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


:thumbup:

And it was a smart strategy to protect Vettel's win. I just find it hilarious when people try to argue KR was actually putting up a fight for the win.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.


If they are both running in low power settings, that is the same as them both running in high power settings - fair fight. If Bottas was quicker he would catch up.

Also, qualifying on pole in tricky conditions, 2.5 seconds ahead of your closest rival who messed up half of his flying laps and crucially his final run to end up 6th - I wouldn't call that on a platter. If anything I would say Bottas got 2nd on the platter with the removal of the two Red Bulls in front of him that may have actually been able to beat him or at least put up a much bigger fight than Ocon and Stroll.

He put himself into a good position with a very good performance on Saturday and Bottas overtaking Hamilton to win a GP? Rosberg managed that 0 times. Hamilton has not lost a normal race to his team mate that he lead on the first lap (that he finished) since 2013 in the fast qualifier tyre eating Mercedes.

The ones he has lost since Spa 2013 are;
Spa 2014, collision with Nico
Monaco 2015, pit stop error
Malaysia 2016, engine blow

He also lost Australia 2017 and Malaysia 2015 to Vettel but that is a different to a team mate as you know he can't undercut you or overtake via the pit stops.


The race, you know, what they do on Sunday? That was handed to Hamilton because he did a superb job under difficult circumstances on the previous day (Saturday) in qualifying. I have to straighten things out because you are mixing days.

It was painfully obvious to me, that once Bottas secured second place in the running, he would not be allowed to challenge Hamilton. Yes, his chances to close and pass Hamilton were very low, but (and this is from the perspective of a fan desiring to see competition) he was not allowed the opportunity. Instead Hamilton put it on cruise control, Bottas took station where he would be relatively close but well clear of any dirty air, and that's all that happened.

There is a vast difference between "yea, he probably would not have been able to do it" and "he was not allowed the opportunity".

Mercedes (it took them a few years) finally learned to manage Hamilton and his teammate. During the Rosberg/Hamilton feuding years, either driver would turn up his engine settings in an attempt to attack the other. It got to the ridiculous stage where both drivers were told to turn down their engine settings, neither complied, and they went after each other. And in 2017 where we have witnessed many different drivers and manufacturers in serious trouble with grid penalties, it is perfectly logical for Mercedes do everything possible to conserve their precious resources. In the interests of the team, turning the engines down is sane and logical. From the perspective of fans who paid to attend the race or those watching on TV, they wanted to see competition and instead were cheated by team orders.

Yet in Hungary were Kimi was clearly faster than Vettel but the 2 Ferrari's just held station despite the fact the 2 Mercedes cars were catching them, you gave that a pass?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.

Yes we know what Lauda wants but it's Wolff that makes the decisions and he clearly is saying that they are still thinking it over.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


:thumbup:

And it was a smart strategy to protect Vettel's win. I just find it hilarious when people try to argue KR was actually putting up a fight for the win.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Actually you should be laughing at your own self since nobody is trying to argue KR was actually putting up a fight for the win. Nobody ever anywhere. But in your fantasies. And that is hilarious rather.
There was no doubt that Ferrari opted to have Kimi protecting Vettel's P1 rather than have Vettel move aside or have Kimi fight him. Just that they needed not to issue a TO, Kimi was smart enough to know what his position was. Kimi was smart enough to even decide not to stay out for over-cut when he knew he had more pace.
And a "damaged car" of Vettel was apparently good enough to keep Hamilton peaceful.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.

Yes we know what Lauda wants but it's Wolff that makes the decisions and he clearly is saying that they are still thinking it over.


They both are saying the same, just that Lauda is more vocal about, as usually. And they are "still thinking" (that was between Spa and Monza), meaning - if it needed. It wasn't. Perhaps it won't be.
I have been saying, they will trade the "equal status" PR for the title if the situation would ask for it. Have no doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:

I don't think those statistics mean that they'll be mirror for the rest of the season. Unless you believe in karma or fate, anything can happen.

Statistically no one had won back to back races, but Hamilton did yesterday. Statistics don't hold up too much weight otherwise we should all go home now as we can average out the points for the rest of the season. I'm being facetious but you see my point?


I am not suggesting they will be mirrored perfectly, but Bottas has out qualified Hamilton 4/10. That is a high rate, I think it would huge leap in faith to think Hamilton would beat him 7-0 in the last 7 races, it was just 3 races ago Bottas beat him in Hungary, it will happen again I am almost certain of that. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis has a Monaco type weekend in Singapore.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively is not the same type of statistic as qualifying head to head at all. Qualifying head to head is entirely based on two drivers driving the same car competing against one another. It is a pure fight. A race has so many more variables.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively relies on-
i) the random ordering of the races.
ii) Luck. Hamilton should have already done it in Canada-Baku. Vettel also would have won Spain-Monaco if the SC didn't come out.
iii) At least 4 races have been decided by the timing or occurrence of a SC's (Bahrain, China, Azerbajan, Spain) and possibly a 5th in Spa too.
iv) Its also subject to driver form. Mercedes have managed back to back wins three times this year already.

Qualifying is not subject to variables, the only sessions that have had variables come into play are Monaco (Hamilton getting yellow flags on final run, but Bottas was going to beat him anyway) and Austria where yellow flags meant each driver only got 1 run and Hamilton also had a gearbox change that might have influenced things a bit. Bottas also had a gearbox change in GB but the gap was so big it probably did not change anything. Other than that is a pure fight in Q3 without variables.



Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.

But I do get your point, there is more weight to be given towards Quali stats than random stats. But let me put it out there that Lewis has good form for the back end of the season that I don't see Bottas competiting with.

Since 2014 Hybrid Era:
USA (3 races, 3 wins), Abu Dhabi (3 races, 2 wins, one 2nd), Japan (3 races, 2 wins, one 3rd), Brazil (3 races, 1 win, two 2nds) are all tracks that Hamilton excels at. Now that's 4/7 tracks left.

I definitely grant you that he will struggle in the Merc at Singapore, and that Malaysia will be hard against the Ferrari package...and Mexico is too early to base any stats on but he has got 1st and 2nd there. I would find it hard to believe that Bottas could beat him overall in quali and race trim for them hence my doubting of your original point.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Prema,
Well, the idea that KR voluntarily stayed behind Vettel, just out of his own idea, without any TO before or during the race,, well, it just does not fit his conversation with the pits, I am sorry. But glad to read that you agree that KR never even tried to attack Vettel in Budapest.
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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:43 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:

I don't think those statistics mean that they'll be mirror for the rest of the season. Unless you believe in karma or fate, anything can happen.

Statistically no one had won back to back races, but Hamilton did yesterday. Statistics don't hold up too much weight otherwise we should all go home now as we can average out the points for the rest of the season. I'm being facetious but you see my point?


I am not suggesting they will be mirrored perfectly, but Bottas has out qualified Hamilton 4/10. That is a high rate, I think it would huge leap in faith to think Hamilton would beat him 7-0 in the last 7 races, it was just 3 races ago Bottas beat him in Hungary, it will happen again I am almost certain of that. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis has a Monaco type weekend in Singapore.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively is not the same type of statistic as qualifying head to head at all. Qualifying head to head is entirely based on two drivers driving the same car competing against one another. It is a pure fight. A race has so many more variables.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively relies on-
i) the random ordering of the races.
ii) Luck. Hamilton should have already done it in Canada-Baku. Vettel also would have won Spain-Monaco if the SC didn't come out.
iii) At least 4 races have been decided by the timing or occurrence of a SC's (Bahrain, China, Azerbajan, Spain) and possibly a 5th in Spa too.
iv) Its also subject to driver form. Mercedes have managed back to back wins three times this year already.

Qualifying is not subject to variables, the only sessions that have had variables come into play are Monaco (Hamilton getting yellow flags on final run, but Bottas was going to beat him anyway) and Austria where yellow flags meant each driver only got 1 run and Hamilton also had a gearbox change that might have influenced things a bit. Bottas also had a gearbox change in GB but the gap was so big it probably did not change anything. Other than that is a pure fight in Q3 without variables.



Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


But I do get your point, there is more weight to be given towards Quali stats than random stats. But let me put it out there that Lewis has good form for the back end of the season that I don't see Bottas competiting with.

Since 2014 Hybrid Era:
USA (3 races, 3 wins), Abu Dhabi (3 races, 2 wins, one 2nd), Japan (3 races, 2 wins, one 3rd), Brazil (3 races, 1 win, two 2nds) are all tracks that Hamilton excels at. Now that's 4/7 tracks left.

I definitely grant you that he will struggle in the Merc at Singapore, and that Malaysia will be hard against the Ferrari package...and Mexico is too early to base any stats on but he has got 1st and 2nd there. I would find it hard to believe that Bottas could beat him overall in quali and race trim for them hence my doubting of your original point.


"Ermm yeah" we were discussing qualifying, Bottas out qualified Hamilton by 0.170 in Hungary.

Whilst you say Hamilton has good form in the remaining tracks he had his best form in Hungary. Hamilton out qualified Rosberg 3-0 in Hungary. Button 3-0. Heikki 2-0 and Alonso 1-0. He was 9-0 up in qualifying against his team mate in Hungary. Note that Rosberg got pole in 2014 when Hamilton blew up in Q1. That's now 9-1.

Including finishing place statistics in the hybrid era for Hamilton is also a bit meaningless, 2nd place was last place during 2014-2016. So saying he got two 2nd's in Brazil for example is saying Nico beat him twice in 3 races...

So whilst you say his USA record is good in the hybrid era. Nico out qualified him 2-1 there. AD, Nico out qualified him 2-1. Japan Nico 3-0. Brazil 2-1 to Nico again... On none of the remaining tracks did he out qualify Nico (head to head statistics) in the Hybrid era, except Singapore.

If Hamilton had out qualified Bottas in Hungary I would probably be agreeing with you that he could beat him every time in the remaining races and he would have done it in 6 of the last 7 races and the only time he didn't do it would be Austria when he had the gearbox penalty and no Q2 runs on the qualifying tyre etc. Under that scenario you would think, Hamilton was now on top of the car and at this best most weekends. But Hungary puts enough doubt in my mind to think Bottas will beat him at least once or twice when he has a form dip.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Anyone trying to dress up Budapest as anything but a disguised order to hold station is clutching at straws. Massa never got a direct team order at Germany 2010, but is anyone here willing to argue exactly what that message was intended to do?

Either way, if neither team has been using opaque orders thus far, you can bet they will be from here on in if they have any designs on winning the WDC with one of the lead drivers. It's perfectly legal once more, literally nothing to get worked up about.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Anyone trying to dress up Budapest as anything but a disguised order to hold station is clutching at straws. Massa never got a direct team order at Germany 2010, but is anyone here willing to argue exactly what that message was intended to do?

Either way, if neither team has been using opaque orders thus far, you can bet they will be from here on in if they have any designs on winning the WDC with one of the lead drivers. It's perfectly legal once more, literally nothing to get worked up about.


Team orders were banned in 2010 and Ferrari still got a big fine for the way they ordered Massa out the way even though it wasn't direct.

I think Kimi probably would have needed the blessing on the pit wall to attack Vettel but in the end it worked itself out as he just simply could not get close enough anyway. Kimi, even if he wasn't going to overtake Vettel I am sure would have prefered to be dragged along by DRS to defend against a potential Hamilton DRS. The reality is, nobody had a chance to even get in DRS unless they were over 1 second quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:25 pm 
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time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:29 pm 
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slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:32 pm 
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are you watching a different series


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Ferrari pitted Raikkonen in Hungary to avoid him overcutting Vettel. Kimi was lapping 1.5 seconds a lap quicker than Vettel and one more lap and he was in the lead...

Ferrari have left Kimi out on old tyres lapping slowly twice this year to try to hold up the winning Mercedes, in Spa against Hamilton and they did it earlier in the year against Bottas in Austria. Mercedes also used Bottas to do the same to Vettel in Spain.

They are both operating the same way.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.

Yes we know what Lauda wants but it's Wolff that makes the decisions and he clearly is saying that they are still thinking it over.


They both are saying the same, just that Lauda is more vocal about, as usually. And they are "still thinking" (that was between Spa and Monza), meaning - if it needed. It wasn't. Perhaps it won't be.
I have been saying, they will trade the "equal status" PR for the title if the situation would ask for it. Have no doubt.

No they're not Lauda is saying they need to do it now whilst Wolff is just thinking about it, also I don't understand this PR equal status, Wolff is just trying to be fair to Bottas.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

This was no more evident than in 2005 and 2006 when Alosno was about 0.4-0.6 a lap better than Fisichella. Briatore said, this is not the real gap, "we do not have the resources to run two cars at the same level", "Fisichella is a very good driver but we can not give him what he needs, it is our fault" and he implied at least half the gap was down to more than talent.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:15 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

I would say that Vettel definitely qualifies with 5 and 7.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No they're not Lauda is saying they need to do it now whilst Wolff is just thinking about it, also I don't understand this PR equal status, Wolff is just trying to be fair to Bottas.


Bottas is number 2 now and will not finish a race directly ahead of Hamilton. He is 41 points behind Hamilton and 38 behind Vettel. Hamilton could DNF the next 2 races and almost certainly still be ahead of Bottas given that one race is Singapore.

Mercedes might not say it publicly but baring a crazy end to the season he is done for the WDC. By crazy end he need 3 DNFs from Hamilton and Vettel each to win this title or at very least 2 for Hamilton and 1 for Vettel if Mercedes is dominant and he has an upsurge in form

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:26 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

This was no more evident than in 2005 and 2006 when Alosno was about 0.4-0.6 a lap better than Fisichella. Briatore said, this is not the real gap, "we do not have the resources to run two cars at the same level" Fisichella is a very good driver and he implied at least half the gap was down to more than talent.


I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

I would say that Vettel definitely qualifies with 5 and 7.


Tell me, poker, has Lewis never "qualified" with numbers 5 & 7?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.

Yes we know what Lauda wants but it's Wolff that makes the decisions and he clearly is saying that they are still thinking it over.


They both are saying the same, just that Lauda is more vocal about, as usually. And they are "still thinking" (that was between Spa and Monza), meaning - if it needed. It wasn't. Perhaps it won't be.
I have been saying, they will trade the "equal status" PR for the title if the situation would ask for it. Have no doubt.

No they're not Lauda is saying they need to do it now whilst Wolff is just thinking about it, also I don't understand this PR equal status, Wolff is just trying to be fair to Bottas.


poteto potato
They are talking about exactly the same issue of TOs and the need for it, Lauda, as I said, is being more straightforward and vocal about it.

And just see what Wollf stated:

“Ferrari has the luxury of having a driver who is clearly ahead of the other, so from now on we will decide race to race. Let us see after Monza.”
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/31 ... eed-to-do/

Wolff is not "just thinking" of it. They will decide from race to race. From now on, after Monza. You know what that means, don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Blake wrote:

I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)


If you think Mercedes were the only team to use team orders this years you need to look at Kimi Raikkonens lap times once Vettel pitted in Hungary. He was 1.6 seconds quicker and ordered to pit to prevent him taking the lead.

Historically, Mercedes have used team orders to maximise the race result regardless of driver. This happened in a race in 2013 when Hamilton was asked to move over for Rosberg, Hungary 2014, Monaco 2016, Bahrain 2017 and Hungary 2017. This may change in the future but every time they have issued an order it was to improve the teams points haul at that race.

The order in Hungary was to maximise Vettel and gained the team nothing in terms of points for that race. The same as all the other high profile Ferrari team orders, they didn't gain any team points just moved more toward the guy going for the championship - which is of course sensible. Mercedes will almost certainly move toward this method now too.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:40 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:

I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)


If you think Mercedes were the only team to use team orders this years you need to look at Kimi Raikkonens lap times once Vettel pitted in Hungary. He was 1.6 seconds quicker and ordered to pit to prevent him taking the lead.

Historically, Mercedes have used team orders to maximise the race result regardless of driver. This happened in Hungary 2014, Monaco 2016, Bahrain 2017 and Hungary 2017. This may change in the future but every time they have issued an order it was to improve the teams points haul at that race.

The order in Hungary was to maximise Vettel and gained the team nothing in terms of points for that race. The same as all the other high profile Ferrari team orders, they didn't gain any team points just moved more toward the guy going for the championship - which is of course sensible. Mercedes will almost certainly move toward this method now too.


I didn't say that Merc was the only team to use team orders this year, did I, lamo. I did say that they are the team (between Ferrari & Mercedes) to irrefutably use team orders, though Ferrari very well may have, we do not know beyond a doubt... we DO know in the case of Mercedes, yet it is Ferrari and Vettel that are being roasted for the use of team orders as though Merc's use either didn't happen or are somehow "justified" and Ferrari's are not.

You have played the role of "spin doctor" to justify Merc's use, while somehow suggesting that Ferrari's are more Vettel oriented, and that Mercs are only for the good of the team. I call baloney on that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)

the admission:
"With the cars running different tyre compounds, we had to make the tough unpopular call for Valtteri to let Lewis pass."
and the justifiable reason too:
"It's not something we like to do but, when the moment comes that the race win is in danger, we will always do what we need to in order to get it."

- Toto Wolff, Bahrain

(btw., they didn't win the race)


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Pretty odd way to put it, since when do we need 100% confirmation for something to be so? Do you think Ferrari used team orders in Hungary?

I haven't played the role of spin Doctor at all to justify Mercedes team orders at all. Team orders do not need justification, I have no problem with them and believe a team should get behind the best chance for the title quite early in the season and both have acted how I would have if in the team principle seat. You can't have Kimi taking points off of Vettel and likewise Bottas taking them off Hamilton and the way the season has played out the only time Bottas took points off of Hamilton was Hungary.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:51 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:

I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)


If you think Mercedes were the only team to use team orders this years you need to look at Kimi Raikkonens lap times once Vettel pitted in Hungary. He was 1.6 seconds quicker and ordered to pit to prevent him taking the lead.

Historically, Mercedes have used team orders to maximise the race result regardless of driver. This happened in a race in 2013 when Hamilton was asked to move over for Rosberg, Hungary 2014, Monaco 2016, Bahrain 2017 and Hungary 2017. This may change in the future but every time they have issued an order it was to improve the teams points haul at that race.

The order in Hungary was to maximise Vettel and gained the team nothing in terms of points for that race. The same as all the other high profile Ferrari team orders, they didn't gain any team points just moved more toward the guy going for the championship - which is of course sensible. Mercedes will almost certainly move toward this method now too.

Keeping Raikkonen behind Vettel in Hungary maximised Ferrari's points haul for the weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:00 pm 
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sure you have, lamo. I to have no problems with team orders... a stance that I have been on record with in this forum since 2002. What I do have a problem with is people trying to justify another team's use of them and then trying to paint Ferrari's use of team orders as being less than honorable. While you and I may well suspect the use of team orders by Ferrari or any other team, we do not really know beyond a doubt that they happened the way we think that they did. However, there is no question that Mercedes used team orders this year, yet it is Ferrari/Seb that are "targets" in here and being criticized for using team orders. Your own list of #1 driver "advantages" certainly can apply to drivers other than Seb Vettel, including Lewis, can it not?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:01 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:

I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)


If you think Mercedes were the only team to use team orders this years you need to look at Kimi Raikkonens lap times once Vettel pitted in Hungary. He was 1.6 seconds quicker and ordered to pit to prevent him taking the lead.

Historically, Mercedes have used team orders to maximise the race result regardless of driver. This happened in a race in 2013 when Hamilton was asked to move over for Rosberg, Hungary 2014, Monaco 2016, Bahrain 2017 and Hungary 2017. This may change in the future but every time they have issued an order it was to improve the teams points haul at that race.

The order in Hungary was to maximise Vettel and gained the team nothing in terms of points for that race. The same as all the other high profile Ferrari team orders, they didn't gain any team points just moved more toward the guy going for the championship - which is of course sensible. Mercedes will almost certainly move toward this method now too.

Keeping Raikkonen behind Vettel in Hungary maximised Ferrari's points haul for the weekend.


Indeed... a point oft ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sure you have, lamo. I to have no problems with team orders... a stance that I have been on record with in this forum since 2002. What I do have a problem with is people trying to justify another team's use of them and then trying to paint Ferrari's use of team orders as being less than honorable. While you and I may well suspect the use of team orders by Ferrari or any other team, we do not really know beyond a doubt that they happened the way we think that they did. However, there is no question that Mercedes used team orders this year, yet it is Ferrari/Seb that are "targets" in here and being criticized for using team orders. Your own list of #1 driver "advantages" certainly can apply to drivers other than Seb Vettel, including Lewis, can it not?


Kimi was 1.5 seconds faster on his in lap than Vettel. Vettel's out lap was slow, Hamilton's out lap was 1.3 seconds quicker than Vettel's. That is how slow Vettel was, he had a broken car and was much slower than everybody else.

Kimi would have, without any doubt taken the lead of the race if he had gone 1 lap longer. For somebody that has been watching racing for what 50 years - you obviously know racing so if you can type "we don't know what went on for sure" is a bit sad really.

There is no explanation for Kimi's strategy other than to protect Vettel and for you to play the "we don't know for sure card" I welcome you to explain the logic to pitting a driver who just set 2 purple sectors and is on course to take the lead.

My list of number 1 privileges can and does apply down the grid and I am sure many points in that list have and will increasingly apply to both Hamilton and Vettel. Nobody knows for sure the workings within each team and this wasn't directed purely at Vettel but just to show that team orders is a very small part of being a number 1. Team orders is the only part of that list in the public eye and all the important stuff we do not know about.

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