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 Post subject: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:28 pm 
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I think, behind closed doors, it's already in place. I don't think they'll acknowledge publicly because then Ferrari have an excuse to openly back Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Well all the time Hamilton is ahead (which is most of the time) here would be no such thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:29 pm 
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They've imposed them when they've needed them already and will again.

I do think we won't get anymore swap backs though as the title fight is too tight and I expect the same from Ferrari.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Lauda already said earlier this week Mercedes were now going to impose team orders on Bottas. It was on the PF1 front page. So equal opportunity and fairness for both drivers is already abandoned.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:37 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Lauda already said earlier this week Mercedes were now going to impose team orders on Bottas. It was on the PF1 front page. So equal opportunity and fairness for both drivers is already abandoned.


Ah I didn't see that .... I kinda thought they would wait until something silly - like a 55 point lead to Lewis with 3 races to go

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Xink wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Lauda already said earlier this week Mercedes were now going to impose team orders on Bottas. It was on the PF1 front page. So equal opportunity and fairness for both drivers is already abandoned.


Ah I didn't see that .... I kinda thought they would wait until something silly - like a 55 point lead to Lewis with 3 races to go


Not sure Lauda is the best source. I think he talks his wishes, rather than Mercs policy..


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Given how tight it is at the top of the drivers' championship, for both Mercedes and Ferrari to start putting their eggs in one basket and imposing team orders is the only sensible approach at this stage. Neither Bottas nor Raikkonen have been fast enough on a consistent basis to challenge for the title this year and both should be playing the 'team role' for the rest of the year as far as I'm concerned.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
I think, behind closed doors, it's already in place. I don't think they'll acknowledge publicly because then Ferrari have an excuse to openly back Vettel.


Agreed. I dont think anyone could justify a Bottas WDC at this point. He's just not quick enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Xink wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Lauda already said earlier this week Mercedes were now going to impose team orders on Bottas. It was on the PF1 front page. So equal opportunity and fairness for both drivers is already abandoned.


Ah I didn't see that .... I kinda thought they would wait until something silly - like a 55 point lead to Lewis with 3 races to go


Not sure Lauda is the best source. I think he talks his wishes, rather than Mercs policy..

Yep I believe that's what Lauda believes should happen, other than that he doesn't have the authority to impose it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:12 pm 
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I think the points gap is to small for me to feel comfortable about team orders being applied.

It's only an 18 point gap under the old system with 70 to play for. Many drivers have come back from a bigger deficit.

Bottas' main issue is that he can't quite ever beat Hamilton rather than the points gap.

if I was Merc I'd probably be edging towards backing Hamilton but as a fan I'm still looking at this as a three way fight. Bottas needs a bit of help though. If Hamilton and Vettel crash into each other he is right back into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:01 pm 
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We saw team orders today. The wet qualifying mixed things up, but once the race settled down, Bottas held his position at approximately 3 seconds for the remainder of the race. He was not allowed to race Hamilton.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
We saw team orders today. The wet qualifying mixed things up, but once the race settled down, Bottas held his position at approximately 3 seconds for the remainder of the race. He was not allowed to race Hamilton.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
We saw team orders today. The wet qualifying mixed things up, but once the race settled down, Bottas held his position at approximately 3 seconds for the remainder of the race. He was not allowed to race Hamilton.

At what point did Bottas ever close in on Hamilton enough for you to suggest that he wasn't allowed to race him? Hamilton had complete control of the gap to Bottas. Kept him 3-5 seconds behind the entire time. If Bottas were being held back, you would have seen him close to within 2 seconds at least once during the race.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:11 pm 
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I was surprised Kimi wasn't ordered straight aside for Vettel today and actually tried to put up a fight for his position. Surely with the gap between them Ferrari must have told Kimi that he is racing purely for Seb now.

At Mercedes the points gap is closer but I feel big enough that fully backing Hamilton would be justifiable.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:19 pm 
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If they weren't in place before today, i'd be willing to bet they will be by the time we get to Singapore, especially if Ferrari are as dominant as some are expecting, because every last point is probably going to be crucial here on in.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Mercedes won't come out and publicly say it (regardless of Lauda running his mouth) because doing so risks demotivating Bottas. Lewis owes his lead in part to Bottas' 2 wins at Russia and Austria, and may still need to rely in Bottas to take points away from Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Mercedes has already imposed Team Orders...

Perhaps the question should be "when will Ferrari impose team orders like Mercedes?"
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Bottas has actually already moved over every time Hamilton has been directly behind him this year - Bahrain (where Hamilton would have gone by anyway) and Hungary.

Vettel and Hamilton have a big race pace advantage over there team mates but do lose in qualifying quite often so that's the only time an order should be needed.

Bottas biggest help to Lewis this year was winning in Russia and Austria taking 14 point off if Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:49 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Bottas has actually already moved over every time Hamilton has been directly behind him this year - Bahrain (where Hamilton would have gone by anyway) and Hungary.

Vettel and Hamilton have a big race pace advantage over there team mates but do lose in qualifying quite often so that's the only time an order should be needed.

Bottas biggest help to Lewis this year was winning in Russia and Austria taking 14 point off if Vettel.


2017 qualifying stats

Vettel 9 - 4 Rai
Hamilton 8 - 5 Bottas


:lol: 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:57 pm 
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I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:10 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas has actually already moved over every time Hamilton has been directly behind him this year - Bahrain (where Hamilton would have gone by anyway) and Hungary.

Vettel and Hamilton have a big race pace advantage over there team mates but do lose in qualifying quite often so that's the only time an order should be needed.

Bottas biggest help to Lewis this year was winning in Russia and Austria taking 14 point off if Vettel.


2017 qualifying stats

Vettel 9 - 4 Rai
Hamilton 8 - 5 Bottas


:lol: 8)


What's funny?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Mercedes has already imposed Team Orders...

Perhaps the question should be "when will Ferrari impose team orders like Mercedes?"
;)

They already did it in Hungary. And I'm pretty sure that Vettel passing Raikkonen today was orchestrated.

For Mercedes on the other hand, this is the first time that they have imposed a team order that favours Hamilton to Bottas' detriment (and even then some could argue that it can't be proven 100% that an order was given). Sure Bottas let Hamilton through in Bahrain and Spain but this was with the aim of maximising the team result (i.e. Hamilton had a chance to win and Bottas did not), not to benefit Hamilton's title challenge specifically.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:37 pm 
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j man wrote:
Blake wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Mercedes has already imposed Team Orders...

Perhaps the question should be "when will Ferrari impose team orders like Mercedes?"
;)

They already did it in Hungary. And I'm pretty sure that Vettel passing Raikkonen today was orchestrated.

For Mercedes on the other hand, this is the first time that they have imposed a team order that favours Hamilton to Bottas' detriment (and even then some could argue that it can't be proven 100% that an order was given). Sure Bottas let Hamilton through in Bahrain and Spain but this was with the aim of maximising the team result (i.e. Hamilton had a chance to win and Bottas did not), not to benefit Hamilton's title challenge specifically.


You think there was an order today?

There might have been an order but it would have only been for the benefit of both to preserve their engines for future races.

Hamilton has had a race pace advantage over Bottas in 10 of the first 12 races and the only time Bottas had a race pace advantage was when he out qualified Hamilton massively in Russia and Monaco and was clearly quicker all weekend and Hamilton really below par - clearly not the case in Monza at all.

Also, given that a Mercedes hasn't overtaken another Mercedes when running the same strategy in a dry race in about 50 races - it just wasn't going to happen. Bottas would have had to overtake Hamilton on track to win today.

They both also had a go at fastest lap at the end of the race, Hamilton was 0.234 quicker and set that time with 3 more laps of fuel on board... Bottas had basically no chance of winning this race.

Much like most of the races through 2015-2016 we have no idea of the pace of both Mercedes this race. Hamilton wins his races as slowly as possible in the lowest engine mode as possible - especially if his team mate is behind him and he knows he has strategy preference over him. He gets a 3-5 second gap and coasts.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:49 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas has actually already moved over every time Hamilton has been directly behind him this year - Bahrain (where Hamilton would have gone by anyway) and Hungary.

Vettel and Hamilton have a big race pace advantage over there team mates but do lose in qualifying quite often so that's the only time an order should be needed.

Bottas biggest help to Lewis this year was winning in Russia and Austria taking 14 point off if Vettel.


2017 qualifying stats

Vettel 9 - 4 Rai
Hamilton 8 - 5 Bottas


:lol: 8)


What's funny?


Not sure, but yes those are the numbers. Kimi ahead 31% of the time. Bottas ahead 38%. If that is kept up that will see Bottas out qualify Hamilton 2 or 3 times in the last 7 and Kimi out qualify Vettel 2 times.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:53 am 
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moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:37 am 
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Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:

Interesting that you are seeing team orders existing in Ferrari but not in Mercedes. Ah, well.
Otherwise, if to judge from this race and Merc superiority over Ferrari (even acknowledged by Hamilton from the podium), there will be no need for Merc to go openly full flagged No.1 and No.2 but simply keep it as it is: Bottas having a supportive role and not interfering with Hamilton's races (just same as in Ferrari with Vet and Kimi). After all, Bottas still doesn't have the contract for the next year?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:41 am 
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Impossible to make any conclusions between the pace of Bottas and Hamilton in the last race since they were both holding back, I'm sure both could've gone quite a bit faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:53 am 
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j man wrote:
Blake wrote:
Xink wrote:
Hi guys
So 7 races to go and Lewis is 41 points ahead of Bottas
How much bigger does that gap need to grow before Mercedes impose team orders like Ferrari
Reliability issues aside I'm guessing it won't be that much longer :idea:


Mercedes has already imposed Team Orders...

Perhaps the question should be "when will Ferrari impose team orders like Mercedes?"
;)

They already did it in Hungary. And I'm pretty sure that Vettel passing Raikkonen today was orchestrated.

For Mercedes on the other hand, this is the first time that they have imposed a team order that favours Hamilton to Bottas' detriment (and even then some could argue that it can't be proven 100% that an order was given). Sure Bottas let Hamilton through in Bahrain and Spain but this was with the aim of maximising the team result (i.e. Hamilton had a chance to win and Bottas did not), not to benefit Hamilton's title challenge specifically.


It's funny how the absence of a team order to order Raikkonen through in Hungary is being turned into the existence of one.
It is also funny how Raikkonen seemingly fighting for position is being turned into an orchestrated switch of positions.

I have no problem with either one of them using TO's as it's the logical thing to do. However, it would be nice if Hamilton- and/or Merc-fans could stop explaining Mercedes' use of TO's as being forced by Ferrari doing so, or validating them by saying it's because they are going for the best team result (which can just as well be argued Ferrari did in Hungary as well).

There have been no TO's to date from Ferrari's camp. Vettel had to battle his way through in China, and he had to do the same yesterday.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:00 am 
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While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:04 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)


Raikkonen's line into the second part of the chicane was compromised, Vettel got a better run out of it. Seen exactly the same over the course of the weekend in support races as well.

Quote:
And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.


They never told him not to attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:45 am 
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lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas has actually already moved over every time Hamilton has been directly behind him this year - Bahrain (where Hamilton would have gone by anyway) and Hungary.

Vettel and Hamilton have a big race pace advantage over there team mates but do lose in qualifying quite often so that's the only time an order should be needed.

Bottas biggest help to Lewis this year was winning in Russia and Austria taking 14 point off if Vettel.


2017 qualifying stats

Vettel 9 - 4 Rai
Hamilton 8 - 5 Bottas


:lol: 8)


What's funny?


Not sure, but yes those are the numbers. Kimi ahead 31% of the time. Bottas ahead 38%. If that is kept up that will see Bottas out qualify Hamilton 2 or 3 times in the last 7 and Kimi out qualify Vettel 2 times.



I don't think those statistics mean that they'll be mirror for the rest of the season. Unless you believe in karma or fate, anything can happen.

Statistically no one had won back to back races, but Hamilton did yesterday. Statistics don't hold up too much weight otherwise we should all go home now as we can average out the points for the rest of the season. I'm being facetious but you see my point?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:03 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.

Just because they had their engines turned down doesn't necessarily mean Bottas could not challenge Hamilton they still had the same engine power, also Mercedes do not allow one driver to use more power against the other driver that's in the interests of fairness.

However I've no doubt that the race was called off but anybody believing that Bottas could have caught and passed Hamilton I believe have not watched the races that have gone before.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:21 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:32 am 
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mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)


Raikkonen's line into the second part of the chicane was compromised, Vettel got a better run out of it. Seen exactly the same over the course of the weekend in support races as well.

Quote:
And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.


They never told him not to attack.

It seemed to me that Kimi was on the radio asking for permission, how many laps was he behind Vettel in DRS range and how many times did we see Kimi make any kind of attempt to pass, Hungary has a nice long straight.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:35 am 
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Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:43 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree that Räikkönen could have been a bit more cooperative into the corner, he eventually still let him by - sensibly so! - by not fully accelerating out of the chicane. Fighting for position looks differently. ;)

And of course there was a TO for Räikkönen in Budapest - not to attack Vettel.

The source?

Edit: My recollection being that Kimi complained about the situation and asked the team to do something about it (perhaps to instruct Vettel to let him pass), and the team did not want to do that. But did they issue a TO to Kimi to not attack Vettel?

Kimi clearly was asking for permission to attack his teammate, he didn't make one attempt to pass Vettel's damaged car.


Hungary is known as a very hard track to pass, especially with same engine & tyres. Would first have to see some kind of evidence he could have had a decent run on Vettel, but it's not unlikely he simply couldn't and the performance delta through the last corner and onto the straight was too small between the Ferrari's.

Prema's recollection is same as mine. He asked "whether it was going to be like this all race", and they said yes. Tell me how that is asking for a team order rather than asking whether Vettel would be slower than him all race and he wouldn't be ordered through?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Hungary has a nice long straight.
As Mickey Mouse circuits go, it's not bad. But at a bit under 800m, it is more than 200m shorter than the distance from the Raidillon to Kemmel - and that's without taking into account the run from La Source to the Raidillon, without any great corners that rely on downforce. That nearly doubles the distance to 2km, and still we see DRS overtakes fail. It's not as easy as having a nice long straight, between more or less equal cars.

Edit: I forgot to add that I felt that, at the Hungaroring, Kimi did initiate a discussion with the team, but it was fairly clear what Ferrari wanted without any clear orders. That means what it means.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.


If they are both running in low power settings, that is the same as them both running in high power settings - fair fight. If Bottas was quicker he would catch up.

Also, qualifying on pole in tricky conditions, 2.5 seconds ahead of your closest rival who messed up half of his flying laps and crucially his final run to end up 6th - I wouldn't call that on a platter. If anything I would say Bottas got 2nd on the platter with the removal of the two Red Bulls in front of him that may have actually been able to beat him or at least put up a much bigger fight than Ocon and Stroll.

He put himself into a good position with a very good performance on Saturday and Bottas overtaking Hamilton to win a GP? Rosberg managed that 0 times. Hamilton has not lost a normal race to his team mate that he lead on the first lap (that he finished) since 2013 in the fast qualifier tyre eating Mercedes.

The ones he has lost since Spa 2013 are;
Spa 2014, collision with Nico
Monaco 2015, pit stop error
Malaysia 2016, engine blow

He also lost Australia 2017 and Malaysia 2015 to Vettel but that is a different to a team mate as you know he can't undercut you or overtake via the pit stops.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:28 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:

I don't think those statistics mean that they'll be mirror for the rest of the season. Unless you believe in karma or fate, anything can happen.

Statistically no one had won back to back races, but Hamilton did yesterday. Statistics don't hold up too much weight otherwise we should all go home now as we can average out the points for the rest of the season. I'm being facetious but you see my point?


I am not suggesting they will be mirrored perfectly, but Bottas has out qualified Hamilton 4/10. That is a high rate, I think it would huge leap in faith to think Hamilton would beat him 7-0 in the last 7 races, it was just 3 races ago Bottas beat him in Hungary, it will happen again I am almost certain of that. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis has a Monaco type weekend in Singapore.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively is not the same type of statistic as qualifying head to head at all. Qualifying head to head is entirely based on two drivers driving the same car competing against one another. It is a pure fight. A race has so many more variables.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively relies on-
i) the random ordering of the races.
ii) Luck. Hamilton should have already done it in Canada-Baku. Vettel also would have won Spain-Monaco if the SC didn't come out.
iii) At least 4 races have been decided by the timing or occurrence of a SC's (Bahrain, China, Azerbajan, Spain) and possibly a 5th in Spa too.
iv) Its also subject to driver form. Mercedes have managed back to back wins three times this year already.

Qualifying is not subject to variables, the only sessions that have had variables come into play are Monaco (Hamilton getting yellow flags on final run, but Bottas was going to beat him anyway) and Austria where yellow flags meant each driver only got 1 run and Hamilton also had a gearbox change that might have influenced things a bit. Bottas also had a gearbox change in GB but the gap was so big it probably did not change anything. Other than that is a pure fight in Q3 without variables.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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